Jump to content


Photo

General award criteria for ground attack pilots


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 LukeFF

LukeFF
  • Tester
  • Posts: 4970
  • Location:Redlands, California

Posted 06 February 2017 - 19:50

I'm helping the team find information they need for the new Career. On their behalf, I'm trying to find out some sort of information about how many ground targets that bomber and ground attack pilots would need to destroy in order to earn medals and other awards. The only exact information I have right now on the German side is in relation to one Hs 129 pilot by the name of Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer, who was awarded the Knight's Cross for destroying 72 enemy tanks. For the Soviet side, bomber and ground attack pilots needed to fly a certain number of missions to earn awards, but that's about all I have. 

 

Anyone have more precise information about this?


  • 0

#2 Space_Ghost

Space_Ghost
  • Founder
  • Posts: 3077
  • Location:Southern Dakota Territory, United States

Posted 06 February 2017 - 20:10

No sarcasm intended but if you search the PWCG subforum you might be able to pull some details from those threads.


  • 0

"Stop pulling so hard. You don't have to get someone under the gunsight right this second to win the fight." - Go_Pre

6700K @ 4.7GHz - GTX1080 @ 2.1GHz (11000MHz mem clock) - 16GB DDR4 @ 3000MHz - Samsung 950 Pro M.2 (512GB) - Dell S2716DG (1440p, G-Sync)

Proud owner of the Ju 52 and Yak-1B.


#3 19//curiousGamblerr

19//curiousGamblerr
  • Member
  • Posts: 714
  • Location:Richmond, Virginia, USA

Posted 06 February 2017 - 23:57

Was reading Memoirs of a Stuka Pilot today and one of the author's wingmen was awarded the Iron Cross, First Class for completing 40 missions. This was in France in 1940, however, so I'm not sure how applicable it is. Sorry I'm not more helpful!


  • 0

#4 csThor

csThor
  • Founder
  • Posts: 589
  • Location:Germany

Posted 07 February 2017 - 05:51

The problem for bomber, Stuka and most ground-attack pilots on the Luftwaffe side is that "targets destroyed" feature only very little into this equation. For bombers for example that category will be simply unusable - for the most part bombers attacked area targets from a certain altitude and did not even see individual "targets". Awards like the Iron Cross (2nd and 1st Class) were usually given for a certain number of combat missions and higher awards (like the Knight's Cross) were usually reserved for commanding officers and awarded for continued display of bravery at the head of their unit and especially for continued leadership of it. As I wrote in the Medals thread here in this subforum:

 

 

 

Other branches of the Luftwaffe (bombers, Stuka, ground-attack etc) received awards for much different criteria. While there were some pilots who received high awards because of their individual claims on enemy tanks or ships (i.e. Rudel) most awards went for continued performance in combat (aka a very serious number of missions + maybe some individual achievements), as reward for outstanding leadership and good unit performance (especially relevant for bomber and Stuka unit commanders). It may be virtually impossible to translate this practice into award criteria that can be used for the campaign and in fact the player may (realistically) be challenged to achieve more than an Honor Cup or at best a German Cross in Gold in a bomber, Stuka or Ground-Attack campaign.

 

My advise would be not to use "hard criteria" such as "destroyed X number of tanks" for awards but design a points system running behind the scenes which gives the player an advancement for flying missions and for individual achievements (succeses). 

 

EDIT: Let me throw in a suggestion for points values.

 

Mission flown = 0.25 points

ground object (lorry, car, artillery etc) = 0.5 points

tank = 0.75 points

aerial kill = 1 point (not applicable in a bomber - an aerial kill would be given to the gunner, not the pilot)

 

If we assume that the Luftwaffe uses these awards

 

Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse (Iron Cross 2nd Class)

Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse (Iron Cross 1st Class)

Ehrenpokal für besondere Leistungen im Luftkrieg (Honor Cup for exceptional accomplishments in Aerial Warfare)

Deutsches Kreuz in Gold (German Cross in Gold)

Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes (Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross)

Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub (Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves)

Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub und Schwertern (Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords)

Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillianten (Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds)

 

then one could use these point thresholds for awards.

 

Iron Cross 2nd Class - 5 points

Iron Cross 1st Class - 10 points

Honour Cup - 30 points

German Cross in Gold - 50 points

Knight's Cross - 75  points

Knight's Cross w Oak Leaves - 120 points

Knight's Cross w Oak Leaves & Swords - 175 points

Knight's Cross w Oak Leaves, Swords & Diamonds - 250 points

 

This way the system could work for any type of aircraft, not just fighters or dedicated tank-busters like the Hs 129 (post 1942) - even though for fighters one may add an additional variable "minimum number of kills" (I listed some potential numbers in the medals thread). Achieving high awards was very difficult and for most simply impossible, the campaign should reflect this and require a serious investment in time. I would, however, abstain from making any reference to winning or losing missions in this case, the demands are high enough already to be seriously challenging and adding yet another "gamey" hurdle would be counterproductive.


Edited by csThor, 07 February 2017 - 06:12.

  • 11

image.jpg


#5 LukeFF

LukeFF
  • Tester
  • Posts: 4970
  • Location:Redlands, California

Posted 07 February 2017 - 14:27

csThor, thanks, those are some good suggestions.


Edited by LukeFF, 07 February 2017 - 16:01.

  • 0

#6 Brano

Brano
  • Founder
  • Posts: 2664
  • Location:Slovakia

Posted 07 February 2017 - 17:00

Dont forget for VVS pilots to include financial bonus for air kills or flying fighters with bombs. Im ready to open a bank account in Gosbank ;)
  • 0

#7 216th_LuseKofte

216th_LuseKofte
  • Founder
  • Posts: 2296

Posted 07 February 2017 - 22:08

As far as I read about medals given to Russian Pilots , they usually follow promotions and conduct in face of the enemy . I read and seen pictures on IL 2 pilots mostly officers and P 39 pilots. Different kill tally and missions but same amount of medals. Some up to 3 Hero of Sovietunion. I hardly see any structure in this other than conduct and rank.

I propose promotions and medals somehow relate to survivability , efficiency and kill ratio . Staying alive is a feat in itself 


Edited by 216th_LuseKofte, 07 February 2017 - 22:10.

  • 0

49efc10c-c436-418c-9fbd-9cffdcfaff3d_zps


#8 hames123

hames123
  • Member
  • Posts: 309

Posted 11 February 2017 - 14:14

Maybe flight leaders should also get points for all the ground targets their wingmen kill(is there going to be better AI for ground attack planes?). This way, you can order your wingmen to attack targets of opportunity while you kill the actual target(but for some reason, the wingmen always forget their target and return to following you whenever an enemy is killed, please change this).
  • 0

#9 I./ZG1_Panzerbar

I./ZG1_Panzerbar
  • Founder
  • Posts: 1216
  • Location:Festung Stalingrad, Pl.Q.49 613 / 44Ost

Posted 22 February 2017 - 12:30

I'm helping the team find information they need for the new Career. On their behalf, I'm trying to find out some sort of information about how many ground targets that bomber and ground attack pilots would need to destroy in order to earn medals and other awards. The only exact information I have right now on the German side is in relation to one Hs 129 pilot by the name of Rudolf-Heinz Ruffer, who was awarded the Knight's Cross for destroying 72 enemy tanks. For the Soviet side, bomber and ground attack pilots needed to fly a certain number of missions to earn awards, but that's about all I have. 

 

Anyone have more precise information about this?

Luke, look into my article on russian forum. I posted there info for fighters, bombers and assaults for both sides for 1942.


  • 0

Воззвaхъ къ тебЁ, гDи, рёхъ: ты2 є3си2 ўповaніе моE, чaсть моS є3си2 на земли2 живhхъ.

St_I_PB.png


#10 LukeFF

LukeFF
  • Tester
  • Posts: 4970
  • Location:Redlands, California

Posted 22 February 2017 - 14:18

Luke, look into my article on russian forum. I posted there info for fighters, bombers and assaults for both sides for 1942.

 

Yep, I have used a lot of information from your article. :) Thanks for taking the time to post it!


Edited by LukeFF, 22 February 2017 - 14:19.

  • 0

#11 Ace_Pilto

Ace_Pilto
  • Founder
  • Posts: 610
  • Location:Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha

Posted 05 March 2017 - 08:34

This is a little off topic since it doesn't really answer the question or offer any data that you are soliciting but hopefully my perspective on the criteria for awarding decorations might be helpful to you because I think it important to understand the methods by which decorations are awarded more intelligently in order to find a better solution to how they can be awarded in a game.

 

Typically, awards for valour are not given in any branch of any military for an arbitrary number of units destroyed or missions flown. They are given for acts of valour.

 

Of course some awards are given for specific criteria like an American Purple Heart or a Wehrmacht tank destruction badge but they are exceptional in that regard. While an award may be reported as having been given for something like "The destruction of 20 enemy planes" for example, you will find that this is by no means a consistent and reliable means of establishing the criteria (even if some sources cite it as being definitive) for that particular award since it can be (and will have been) given for many different criteria during its' history. It is the case that, historically, the reason cited as being grounds for the award of a decoration only reflects the decisions that led to that particular award being given due to the individual circumstances of the combat or phase of combat during which that particular award was given.

 

Therefore it is not really accurate to award decorations in this arbitrary way and pursuing it will only lead to vague or confusing results.

 

Furthermore, valor can be ascertained as being either an individual act of conspicuous bravery or a display of cumulative and consistent bravery covering a period of time. It would be more accurate and probably much simpler to assign awards to players on the basis of what types of missions the player has completed and how consistent and successful they have been in meeting objectives. This could be achieved by assigning each mission a level of predefined difficulty and logging the players' performance before correlating that with an established criteria for any given award. This would more accurately measure the player's' ability to succeed under difficult circumstances and allows the possibility for awards to be given in line with more historically accurate criteria.

 

(Also, the award of a high level of decoration for one conspicuous act of valour should be very rare so the criteria should be extremely demanding, otherwise such awards should be earned over time)


Edited by Ace_Pilto, 05 March 2017 - 08:46.

  • 0

My RIG: - Same old mediocre box of snot, I shaved off the beard. Powered by boredom, sarcasm and existential apathy.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users