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SCG_Tzigy

Snap Roll with 190

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using as an evasive move, i can evade really well....straight into ground :biggrin:

 

 

any pointers/advice?

 

with the new FM, having a really hard time recovering..

 

tried multiple time yesterday, different speeds, 2 diff initiation techniques (rudder 1st vs. stick 1st)

 

what do u guys think?

 

 

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I still do not have any problem controlling this bird in SP. I think Gambit is on to something. It flies differently depending on the hardware you fly it with. If you got a very sensitive stick. I can imagine you will have problems. Try to adjust sensitivity on axis

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As vicious as the accelerated stall is, the recent update made it very hard to enter accidentally, unless you're insisting on flying below 300 km/h.

 

I don't really get why you'd use it as an evasive action, but if you really want to, I find recovering extremely easy: rudder against the rotation and push nose down, works every time and is nearly instantaneous.

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As vicious as the accelerated stall is, the recent update made it very hard to enter accidentally, unless you're insisting on flying below 300 km/h.

 

I don't really get why you'd use it as an evasive action, but if you really want to, I find recovering extremely easy: rudder against the rotation and push nose down, works every time and is nearly instantaneous.

 

totally agree, in the end I figured out that recovery technique worked pretty well, just would not describe it as "extremely easy" lol, u really have to be super quick and precise...(at least with my stick/settings)

 

have not really used it in MP, but it is a well described move in WW2 literature/memoirs, so I thought I could try to master it

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Yeah it's not an evasion tactic for the 190.

In the Zero it was used quite a bit by skilled pilots - but that's a zero.

If you're flying a 190 like that -  you're not doing it right.

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totally agree, in the end I figured out that recovery technique worked pretty well, just would not describe it as "extremely easy" lol, u really have to be super quick and precise...(at least with my stick/settings)

 

have not really used it in MP, but it is a well described move in WW2 literature/memoirs, so I thought I could try to master it

I don't find that you have to be super quick. You can ease into the control input and make the recovery just a second later than you would by yanking the stick.

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Better to use rolling scissors or vector roll rather than relinquish control of your aircraft - especially if high wing loaded jäger like FW that requires plenty of precious altitude for recovery.

 

Leave that snap-stall for Hollywood movies and unfounded anecdotes.

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Leave that snap-stall for Hollywood movies and unfounded anecdotes.

 

...and Zekes

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I find an intention snap roll to be a great last ditch maneuver in the 190. And I do mean last. It's not like a Russian plane can follow it, and given the high max dive speed of the 190, you can fall out of the sky, getting a bandit off your six for a moment so you can dive away too fast for them to follow. 

 

I don't claim to be a great 190 pilot but it's worked for me a few times.

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I find an intention snap roll to be a great last ditch maneuver in the 190. And I do mean last. It's not like a Russian plane can follow it, and given the high max dive speed of the 190, you can fall out of the sky, getting a bandit off your six for a moment so you can dive away too fast for them to follow. 

 

I don't claim to be a great 190 pilot but it's worked for me a few times.

 

Sure, but now the Russian pilot does a nice, patient turn back toward you, and there you are...a nice juicy target with little energy and a dwindling altitude account.

I've had poor, last ditch moves work too...I get what you're saying.

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I've not tested it yet for stall and haven't entered one accidentally in the new FM either but in all of the earlier iterations it was vital that you quickly identify wether you are in a spin, flat spin or INVERTED flat spin. The recovery for each was pretty straight forward but distinctly different depending on the type of spin. I know you are entering a snap roll on purpose but if/when it turns into a spin it is important to know how to get out of it.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Obviously, if you are left in a really bad spot, with him on your six with plenty of energy and a clear shot, you wanna do anything in your power to make him miss that shot and live for a few more seconds to see if a chance to turn the situation around comes up.

 

But as a deliberabte defensive maneuver to be used as part of a tactical plan. No, that's not a good idea.

I've not tested it yet for stall and haven't entered one accidentally in the new FM either but in all of the earlier iterations it was vital that you quickly identify wether you are in a spin, flat spin or INVERTED flat spin. The recovery for each was pretty straight forward but distinctly different depending on the type of spin. I know you are entering a snap roll on purpose but if/when it turns into a spin it is important to know how to get out of it.

I've not entered a flat spin at all with the new FM, and I used to get them all the time.

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Yep, it's a "Well, I really screwed up, let's try to make him miss and hope like crazy my wingmate saves me."

 

All planes benefit from teamwork, but the 190 really loves working in at least pairs.

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Wow A plane that does not snap roll?

Whats wrong with it. Hope you lot not using any aileron input for your snap rolls..

Thats a big no no..
Rudder and elevator only!!

Edited by =r4t=Sshadow14

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I didn't try it yet, but will ASAP when getting some time slot at the home PC ( after those weekend house clening tasks shared with the fleet commander.... ), but I think that it may actually be related to the yaw-roll coupling / prop-slipstream effects on the tail and other aircraft surfaces as they're presently still modelled in IL-2.

 

After the announced update, because as you recall one of the Dev Team members told us that they had found the possible culprit and were working on it, with impact on all aircraft, I think it will be fairer to give it a new try.

  • Upvote 1

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I suspect the the 190 will snap-roll just fine.  The question is whether or not it's a good idea.

 

As others have noted; you may force an overshoot with a snap-roll but if your attacker has his wits about him, that's unlikely to be an end to the matter.

Edited by Wulf

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I didn't try it yet, but will ASAP when getting some time slot at the home PC ( after those weekend house clening tasks shared with the fleet commander.... )

I'm sorry, that just struck me as funny as hell...! Lol...

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...

 

As others have noted; you may force an overshoot with a snap-roll but if your attacker has his wits about him, that's unlikely to be an end to the matter.

 

This is really the gist of it.

 

It occurred to me after my original post that all the times I've used it successful have been in servers where other stuff was happening. If you tried a snap roll in a "pure" 1 on 1 fight in Berloga with no clouds to fall into, where the enemy had no concerns other than you, it would be another story entirely.

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All aircraft do. The Fw in the new FM, however, is not nearly so dependent upon it as before.

I'm saying that with it's speed, acceleration and great dive performance, it really works well in wing scenarios. It isn't dependent on it, but it's very strong once it does, vs say, a wing of p40s

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using as an evasive move, i can evade really well....straight into ground :biggrin:

 

 

any pointers/advice?

 

with the new FM, having a really hard time recovering..

 

tried multiple time yesterday, different speeds, 2 diff initiation techniques (rudder 1st vs. stick 1st)

 

what do u guys think?

You are right. It is going too deep into the stall (too high AOA), from where it is not returning into the initial attitude, when releasing the stick.

The snap roll was used in the 190 very often, as it worked like a charm: Pull on the stick snapped it to the other side without touching the rudder.

Edited by Quax

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The snap roll was used in the 190 very often, as it worked like a charm: 

 

Reference?

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You are right. It is going too deep into the stall (too high AOA), from where it is not returning into the initial attitude, when releasing the stick.

The snap roll was used in the 190 very often, as it worked like a charm: Pull on the stick snapped it to the other side without touching the rudder.

THAT IS NOT A SNAP ROLL

Thats Just a fast aileron roll. (Aileron roll around the horizontal Axis, Snap roll is a roll around the Yaw Axis)

 

A SNAP ROLL IS

INSTANT FULL BACK STICK AND RUDDER (To side of engine torque)

Then passing through 270* of the Full forward Stick and Oppisite Rudder.

 

THAT Is the only snap roll.

DO NOT TOUCH THE AILERONS (This causes drag during the roll)

 

54cac16735d14_-_extreme_howto_02_0311-de

 

Thats a snap roll..

The only snap roll..

 

Done well over 1,000 of them in RC planes and gliders nothing special and you loose little speed maybe 25% of energy

Edited by =r4t=Sshadow14

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Even though you seem to be relating 25% energy loss as a relative positive effect from a snap roll, I'm not giving up 25% of my energy in a fight ever if I can help it if I can't get the other guy to give up 25% or more of his in the process.

 

500 kph = 375kph

400kph = 300kph

300kph = 225kph

etc

etc

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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Even though you seem to be relating 25% energy loss as a relative positive effect from a snap roll, I'm not giving up 25% of my energy in a fight ever if I can help it if I can't get the other guy to give up 25% or more of his in the process.

 

500 kph = 375kph

400kph = 300kph

300kph = 225kph

etc

etc

I dunno HerrMurf, I might be willing to do that in the range of 600-500km/h starting speed, if it makes an attacker miss his shot and forces an overshoot. Below that speed range I'd say the Fw 190 loses all advantage in maneuverability, and I wouldn't do it. But then again, you are clearly the most experienced Fw 190 pilot in this discussion.

 

In any case, the situation where a snap roll would come in handy is already an exceptional one, which should be avoided at all costs.

Edited by Finkeren

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Even though you seem to be relating 25% energy loss as a relative positive effect from a snap roll, I'm not giving up 25% of my energy in a fight ever if I can help it if I can't get the other guy to give up 25% or more of his in the process.

 

500 kph = 375kph

400kph = 300kph

300kph = 225kph

etc

etc

 

Nitpick: kinetic energy is 0.5 * mass * speed^2. When you lose 25% of your speed, you lose half your energy.

Taking your 400 kph -> 300 kph example:

Energy before: 0.5 * M * 400 * 400 * 1000 / 3600

Energy after: 0.5 * M * 300 * 300 * 1000 / 3600

Ratio after / before: 300 * 300 / (400 * 400) = 0.75 ^ 2 = 0.5625

Energy loss : 43.75%

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It's not that I'm the most experienced, it's just I'm the biggest coward. I don't give up E unnecesarilly in any phase of a fight. I will cut and run early to fight another day unless I am defending a teammate.

 

Even in the old FM there were better options than a snap roll. With the new FM you would really need to be at wits end and out of options to do it as opposed to scissoring, or rolling and jinking a few times, etc. At 500+ a split S should gain you some pretty rapid sep as the Fw has very good elevator authority and now has great acceleration. You will trade altitude for airspeed and not give up 25% E (Yes, it is still giving up some of your sum total E)

 

As you said, to be in that position in the first place generally means your SA was an issue in that fight to begin with.

 

Edit: @coconut - fair enough. I hates the maths but I understand E by the seat of my pants. I also read Sshadow's statement incorrectly in the first place. He dilenates between speed and energy already.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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THAT IS NOT A SNAP ROLLThats Just a fast aileron roll. (Aileron roll around the horizontal Axis, Snap roll is a roll around the Yaw Axis)A SNAP ROLL IS

INSTANT FULL BACK STICK AND RUDDER (To side of engine torque)

Then passing through 270* of the Full forward Stick and Oppisite Rudder.THAT Is the only snap roll.

DO NOT TOUCH THE AILERONS (This causes drag during the roll) 54cac16735d14_-_extreme_howto_02_0311-de

Thats a snap roll..

The only snap roll..

Done well over 1,000 of them in RC planes and gliders nothing special and you loose little speed maybe 25% of energy

I know very well, what a snap roll is. How can it be an aileron roll without using the aileron ? But you don't need the rudder, if one wing is stalling earlier than the other without using the rudder. And this worked in the 190, when it was in a 90 bank. So stop crying with big letters, before you inform yourself.

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Are we still talking about this?

 

FW-190 is actually flyable again, everybody getting delusions of grandeur.

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Well, I for one am learning some things and realizing how much I don't know/misunderstood. So if we can keep it civil I hope the discussion continues.

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Are we still talking about this?

 

FW-190 is actually flyable again, everybody getting delusions of grandeur.

I for one am glad, that the Fw 190 thread didn't die off immediately just because the Fw 190 is now close to meeting People's expectations.

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I know very well, what a snap roll is. How can it be an aileron roll without using the aileron ? But you don't need the rudder, if one wing is stalling earlier than the other without using the rudder. And this worked in the 190, when it was in a 90 bank. So stop crying with big letters, before you inform yourself.

You said DONT touch the rudder and pulling on a half stalled wing IS NOT EVER a snap roll..

also didn't use any BIG letters

Edited by =r4t=Sshadow14

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I tried only to explain, what a 190 pilot told me, who did use this snaproll defensively. I don't expect a simulator to be able to replicate this, as this behaviour was not "designed". They just found out by accident. And of course it is a snaproll, if one wing is stalling earlier than the other. Normally you need the rudder to induce this. But not the use of rudder is the definition of the snaproll.

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