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Taxiing... a Bf109


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#1 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:49

Most of the time I've been playing this second gen IL-2 I've been starting on the runway, engine hot, ready for takeoff. No big deal. Recently, because I've been joining multiplayer servers where you need to start up the engine and then taxi out before heading off, I've been forced to taxi (not a bad thing either :)). This is where I've been discovering that I have some issues.

 

I'm perfectly able to taxi the Bf110, Ju87, Yak-1, IL-2, and MC.202 just fine but the Bf109 has been a problem. I tried with the E-7 through G-4 and the E-7 and G-4 seem the easiest but I've had trouble with them all.

 

The problem is this. I power up, I get rolling, I make a turn using about 20-30% throttle, brakes on/off and rudder. The rudder seems to have no effect and then suddenly it has full effect and I'm doing a spin on the ground. I'm obviously doing something wrong or missing something here because others are telling me that taxiing the Bf109 is easy. Maybe they have rudder pedals with differential toe brakes? I've got a HOTAS and a stick so this might be putting me at a disadvantage.

 

Any tips?


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#2 Bando

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:02

It has been stated by Han in https://forum.il2stu...nd-operational/

that the pitch should be manual and at min angle when taxiing any 109. One may also start running too fast, so take it easy on them.


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#3 Mad_Mikhael

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:27

Are you unlocking a tail wheel? Rudder has almost no effect if tail wheel is locked. And, in my opinion, if you start rolling you should lower throttle to circa 10%.


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#4 LLv34_Temuri

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:48

I don't use rudder at all when taxiing the 109, I throttle up so the plane gets moving, then throttle to about 20%, then apply brake to the side I want to turn to and unlock tail wheel (especially for sharper turns) when necessary.


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#5 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:53

It has been stated by Han in https://forum.il2stu...nd-operational/

that the pitch should be manual and at min angle when taxiing any 109. One may also start running too fast, so take it easy on them.

This may be a problem I'm having. I'll try changing the pitch when taxiing!

 

Are you unlocking a tail wheel? Rudder has almost no effect if tail wheel is locked. And, in my opinion, if you start rolling you should lower throttle to circa 10%.

 

I am. Should have mentioned that. It stays pretty straight with it locked for sure :) It's the unlocked mode where I do all of the spins. Maybe I'm being too agressive on the throttle.

 

I don't use rudder at all when taxiing the 109, I throttle up so the plane gets moving, then throttle to about 20%, then apply brake to the side I want to turn to and unlock tail wheel (especially for sharper turns) when necessary.

 

How are you mapping your brake differential? I've really just got one convenient button to brake left or right. I may have to set some more.


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#6 Mad_Mikhael

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 13:09

(...)

How are you mapping your brake differential? I've really just got one convenient button to brake left or right. I may have to set some more.

In settings, you have three "brakes option". Two are called Left Brakes and Right Brakes. That is what are you looking for.


Edited by SolidStalker, 31 January 2017 - 13:09.

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#7 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 13:15

I notice that you don't mention lowering throttle after you get moving. I'd recommend doing so and finding out just how low you can lower it after you do get moving as it sounds like you may just be trying taxi a little too fast.

 

Also, I don't use rudder much when taxiing Luftwaffle planes. I usually just left or right rudder to counter the main turn tendency and then use the left and right wheel brakes to actually steer the craft in the taxi. I personally find that easier.


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#8 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 04:02

In settings, you have three "brakes option". Two are called Left Brakes and Right Brakes. That is what are you looking for.

 

Yep. I know that part. I'm more curious what everyone has them mapped to. The theoretical part I got... but I'm interested in how folks are doing this practically :)


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#9 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 04:19

Yep. I know that part. I'm more curious what everyone has them mapped to. The theoretical part I got... but I'm interested in how folks are doing this practically :)

 

I have an X-55. On the front of the throttle there are two buttons that I use for my German toe brakes. I'm looking forward to getting pedals soon and trying it that way.

 

Also, I have never messed with manual prop pitch on the 109 and can taxi it just fine. I think the key is just take it easy and taxi slowly. 


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#10 LLv34_Temuri

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 06:42

How are you mapping your brake differential? I've really just got one convenient button to brake left or right. I may have to set some more.

I have the brakes mapped to the toe brakes in my pedals.


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#11 Stig

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 20:43

I find that holding the stick fully back when the tail wheel is unlocked is a must. If I don't I can't turn to the right! :)

 

Other than that, as Gambler says, just take it easy and taxi slowly.


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#12 andyw248

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 00:44

Also, I don't use rudder much when taxiing Luftwaffle planes. I usually just left or right rudder to counter the main turn tendency and then use the left and right wheel brakes to actually steer the craft in the taxi.

 

That's exactly what I do in any plane that has toe brakes.


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#13 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 05:07

I have an X-55. On the front of the throttle there are two buttons that I use for my German toe brakes. I'm looking forward to getting pedals soon and trying it that way.

 

Also, I have never messed with manual prop pitch on the 109 and can taxi it just fine. I think the key is just take it easy and taxi slowly. 

 

That sounds really useful for sure.

 

I have the brakes mapped to the toe brakes in my pedals.

 

Right! I was wondering what people were doing..

 

I find that holding the stick fully back when the tail wheel is unlocked is a must. If I don't I can't turn to the right! :)

 

Other than that, as Gambler says, just take it easy and taxi slowly.

 

I should try holding the stick back. That may help.

 

I may be trying to rush things too much. I'm pretty patient but maybe I'm just getting carried away.

 

Thanks guys! I think I need to figure out how I'm going to map brake differential without pedals (for now anyways) and just take things more slowly.


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#14 JimTM

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 05:40

One tip that helped me with taxiing tail draggers in general is once you start a turn, start stopping it. That is, apply a little opposite brake before you complete your turn. With practice, you'll learn just how much opposite brake to apply to track in the new direction that you want to go. Also, don't let the plane veer off your desired track too much; correct any deviation immediately with small brake inputs.

Edited by JimTM, 02 February 2017 - 05:41.

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#15 TP_Silk

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 08:54

As has been said a couple of times, the trick for me when learning to taxi any aircraft in the game has been to slowly advance the throttle until the aircraft overcomes its initial inertia and starts moving forward then backing off the throttle until it is maintaining a slow but steady taxi speed. I've seen it said that taxi speed should be somewhere about what a brisk walk would be, but you can fairly easily maintain a speed of 20-30 Kph without too much drama. Also while holding the stick back is probably a generally good habit to get into, note that when first moving it is sometimes (depending on whether back pressure keeps the tailwheel locked or not) a good move to just 'flip' the stick forward momentarily just to release the effect of the propwash over the tailplane and make the tail lighter and easier to start moving. I'm pretty sure most real flight instructors would have a heart attack at that suggestion, but it works for me in the game.

 

The thing to note is that in planes like the Fw-190, P40 etc back pressure on the stick has an effect on the tailwheel as well as the elevators so use caution.


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#16 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:38

One tip that helped me with taxiing tail draggers in general is once you start a turn, start stopping it. That is, apply a little opposite brake before you complete your turn. With practice, you'll learn just how much opposite brake to apply to track in the new direction that you want to go. Also, don't let the plane veer off your desired track too much; correct any deviation immediately with small brake inputs.

Yeah, just like rudder on takeoff, you need to slightly anticipate, don't just react.

 

So I flew a G-2 yesterday and I pretty much stand by what I said before.

 

I cranked the throttle to 40% or so to get moving and then backed off and taxied at around 15-25% throttle.

 

I held right rudder at about 50-75% and then just used brakes to steer.

 

It felt pretty important to keep the speed relatively low because the plane has a bad tendency to donut when you get past a slow jogging pace.


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#17 Dakpilot

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 13:50

Using a bit of forward stick to reduce pressure on the tailwheel when initiating a turn was a practice done IRL

 

A good idea when learning is to have a look in external view, many 'problems' can be traced to tail wheel not yet being 'centered' even when tail wheel is locked

 

watching in external view will give you a better feel and understanding of what is happening

 

Cheers Dakpilot


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#18 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 13:54

Using a bit of forward stick to reduce pressure on the tailwheel when initiating a turn was a practice done IRL

 

A good idea when learning is to have a look in external view, many 'problems' can be traced to tail wheel not yet being 'centered' even when tail wheel is locked

 

watching in external view will give you a better feel and understanding of what is happening

 

Cheers Dakpilot

I always assumed the tail wheel lock would also properly orient the tail wheel. This isn't the case? Or is it just some planes that this happens?


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#19 Dakpilot

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 14:16

You need to travel forward some distance for a free castering tail wheel to "centre" and lock in place

 

as you cannot 'feel' it lock and the indication is only that the potential to lock it is in place, watching how it works from external view can give you a better understanding

 

Some aircraft do not have full free castering tail wheel, or even a lockable one, Mig, P-40, and Lagg respectively (off the top of my head) so don't quote me on that  ;)

 

I do not know the locking mechanism on Bf 109 intimately but on DC-3 there is a sheer pin as part of the mechanism, which is easily broken and usually was hard to come by, grounding the aircraft, most stores men even refusing to admit they had any spares unless you were on very good terms  :unsure: and knew the 'secret handshake'

 

being able to break the locking mechanism is probably detail beyond what we need in combat flight sim anyway :)  

 

Cheers Dakpilot


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#20 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 14:41

You need to travel forward some distance for a free castering tail wheel to "centre" and lock in place

 

as you cannot 'feel' it lock and the indication is only that the potential to lock it is in place, watching how it works from external view can give you a better understanding

Ah ok, that makes perfect sense. Thanks!


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#21 JimTM

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 15:30

...

Some aircraft do not have full free castering tail wheel, or even a lockable one, Mig, P-40, and Lagg respectively (off the top of my head) so don't quote me on that  ;)

...

 

Item #5 in this post lists the tail wheel setup for the planes available at that time (also, item #6 lists flap information). I believe that the "Specifications" tab in-game for each plane also lists the tail wheel and flap setup.


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#22 303_Kwiatek

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 23:20

RL 109 need for taxi turns near full stick forward and add power for unload heavy tail. It works also in BOS. So when you need to turn in 109 just stick forward apply some power and kick rudder with brake in side you want to turn. Its real life procedure which work also in game

Edited by 303_Kwiatek, 02 February 2017 - 23:21.

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#23 ShamrockOneFive

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 21:10

Thanks for everyone's help on this. I decided to give Ten Days of Autumn campaign a try and consequently I've needed to really learn how to taxi with the Bf109.

 

Stick full forward helps but the thing I was really missing was left/right brake control. I have it mapped to a single button but I decided to map two keys on the keyboard that I can use while taxiing and its a great help. Suddenly I can coordinate turns at low throttle and not spin out. A revelation! :D


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