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Trainer planes (2 Seaters with shared controls)


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#1 =TBAS=Sshadow14

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:32

Howdy Devs/All
Here is Just something i think IL2 is missing & i have been looking into how it could be done.

The basics of the idea, sorry devs im terrible at putting ideas on paper or providing great sources.
(plane Make/Models are just to get the idea there might well be better choices to fit the class of "Trainer")

My Idea is we need A Set of High wing (or in russias case bi-plane) 2 seater Trainers for learning to fly and training missions and of course stunt flying/air races in IL2 - BoX

Some sources (just basic stuff - nothing official)

https://en.wikipedia...Polikarpov_Po-2
- Allies (Russian) 2 Seater Bi-Plane
(Sorry can't find a Russian 2 seater high wing at all)

https://en.wikipedia...i/Heinkel_He_46
- Axis (German) 2 Seater High Wing.
(There is a better choice High wing but it's only single seater,
The Arado Ar 76 - https://en.wikipedia...iki/Arado_Ar_76 )

https://en.wikipedia...i/Piper_J-3_Cub
- Allies (Generic - American) 2 Seater High Wing
(This is an obvious choice maybe one of the most famour tail draggers in the world)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNA_PM.1
- Axis (Generic - Italian) 2 Seater High Wing
(Seems to be a great little plane almost like a cub X cesna. )

Each nation/side gets a similar set of missions (these can also be added to Dserver for multiplayer for Co-op based training flights..

These 2 seat planes have the 2nd seat sharable like gunners positions with the possibility of both pilots being able to take control of the plane (like fsx shared cockpits) Experimental test for these planes only tho.

The reason for the high wing is the inherant stability of such a design (pendulum effect) and there ease to fly / recover / land versus mid or low wing plane which are inherantly unstable due to the cg being above the wing and it wanting to be underneat it (great for high roll rates, terrible for training and stability)

Hope that all made sense.
Cheers Sshadow
 


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#2 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 19:07

Why do we need these to learn how to fly? This is a simulation. You can learn in the aircraft you want to fly because you can reset your plane


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#3 -[HRAF]Rune

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 21:32

That would be a great oppurtunity to practise and teach rockie pilots and gunners.


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#4 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 21:44

People have asked about bombardier controlled bombsights in the past, and the answer was that would be difficult to give pilot controls to other crew members, given how the game is designed now. This would face the same challenge I would imagine, so unfortunately probably not going to happen.


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#5 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 07:26

The Po-2 is as important as the J-3 Cub when it comes to Production Numbers, so it's the obvious Choice for the Russians. The I-16UTI would be the choice for advanced trainer.

 

Piper J-3 wasn't used as a trainer during WWII. The Boeing PT-17 Stearman is the actual Primary Trainer, and the T-6 Texan the Advanced. 

 

A lot of the german Pilots had their first experiences on Gliders, mainly SG-38, Hols der Teufel, Grunau Baby, Olympia Meise, DFS Kranich and Mü-13. 

However, Engines Aircraft were mostly the Bücker Bü-131 Jungmann and Ar-96, which were the most common types. 

 

The SG-38s are still flown by the OSC Wasserkuppe as an attraction for Glider Pilots from all over the World in the Traditional Manner, with Manpower. This is footage from my Trip. 

youtube.com/watch?v=jZig5ujrMPM


Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann, 21 January 2017 - 10:08.

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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#6 =TBAS=Sshadow14

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 13:51

YEAH

Like i said the planes were just examples of the types..

I specifically was after HIGH WING Very Stable planes for people to learn in.
High wings are very easy to fly.


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#7 JG13_opcode

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 15:43

Why do we need these to learn how to fly? This is a simulation. You can learn in the aircraft you want to fly because you can reset your plane


This is the key point, IMO. The reason we use trainers in real life is because you don't want the student killing themself in a tricky fighter aircraft. In game we don't have that problem because you just respawn when you die. There's really nothing you can do in a trainer that you can't do in the aircraft we've already got.

I'd personally rather the devs spend their time on refining and improving the existing flight models.
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#8 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 18:15

This is the key point, IMO. The reason we use trainers in real life is because you don't want the student killing themself in a tricky fighter aircraft. In game we don't have that problem because you just respawn when you die. There's really nothing you can do in a trainer that you can't do in the aircraft we've already got.

I'd personally rather the devs spend their time on refining and improving the existing flight models.

I strictly see Two Seater Trainers as a low priority luxury. 

But just for the Lulz I would like to see the SG-38 most as a Basic Tutorial Aircraft.

 

If they ever introduce Advanced Weather Mechanics with Thermals and Ridge Lift there needs to be at least one Performance Glider, like a DFS Kranich, Mü-13, Grunau Baby or Olympia Meise to exploit that. 

 

 

Anyways, I think each side should get one of the Mulit-Role Aircraft of each side, but these would need Non-Direct Combat Missions. 

  • The Po-2 is a must have, it was built in massive numbers, it's significant as the Night Witches Plane and generally does it all. 
  • For the Americans it's either the Steaman, Texan or Cub (which was never used as a trainer). Only the Texan was also used in Combat in the Pacific I think. 
  • For the Germans there is a ton of choice. The Bü 131, Bü 181, Ar 96 and Fi 156 are the most obvious, however I am not aware of a Fi 156 with shared controls. 

 

Now, something I think wouldn't take up too much time would be Two Seater Conversions for the Fighters. With Armor Removed for a second seat, the weight and handling difference shouldn't be too big, I think nobody would mind even leaving the FM unchanged.

 

215441881eceare_ph.jpg

 

p-40-uti.jpg

 

uti4_3.jpg

Bez%20n%C3%A1zvu%201-600x300.JPG


Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann, 21 January 2017 - 18:28.

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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#9 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 18:28

I think nobody would mind even leaving the FM unchanged.
 

 

Somebody always minds  ;)  But it's a good point, it would arguably be better to keep the same FM to train the student for the one seater.

 

Again tho, the issue is less about developing a new plane and more about the challenge of shared control of the aircraft.


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#10 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 18:32

 

 

Somebody always minds  ;)  But it's a good point, it would arguably be better to keep the same FM to train the student for the one seater.

 

Again tho, the issue is less about developing a new plane and more about the challenge of shared control of the aircraft.

 

Well, the Ju-52 is the first Aircraft ingame already that would warrant introducing such a system. Flying Long Missions with a Co-Pilot would be pretty cool. 


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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#11 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 18:33

Well, the Ju-52 is the first Aircraft ingame already that would warrant introducing such a system. Flying Long Missions with a Co-Pilot would be pretty cool. 

 

I think the He-111 and other bombers with bomb sights could benefit too. That would be great in the 52 tho, "hey copilot, I can't reach those radiator knobs way over there, can you give me a hand?"


Edited by 19.GIAP//curiousGamblerr, 21 January 2017 - 18:34.

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#12 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 19:08

I think the He-111 and other bombers with bomb sights could benefit too. That would be great in the 52 tho, "hey copilot, I can't reach those radiator knobs way over there, can you give me a hand?"

If I ever got into Game Development I would love to create a Complex Weather Mechanic for this Game Engine and build a Gliding Sim. This is the best Physics Engine I know on the Market today for exactly that sort of thing. I would love having Online Competitions on Babies or whatever. 

 

Just imagine:

Hahnweide-Wb.jpg.4223294.jpg

youtube.com/watch?v=UkWXsY_TEes

 

youtube.com/watch?v=l0WDpcEVcms

 

youtube.com/watch?v=MORy6mi76J0


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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#13 unreasonable

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 04:01

Anyone wanting 2-seater training can easily get it in RoF - free to play, then buy something like the Harry Tate. The flying experience in RoF is so similar to BoX that there is no problem about transferring skills.

( IMHO 1CGS should include a 2-seater each side in the free to play version, but that is another matter).

 

Much as I would like to see a Fairey Swordfish in this game, it is not going to happen :(

 

Perhaps these commercially non-viable planes need patrons?  (I might be good for a Mosquito if such a project was on offer).  


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#14 19//curiousGamblerr

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 04:18

...

 

Perhaps these commercially non-viable planes need patrons?  (I might be good for a Mosquito if such a project was on offer).  

 

Patron as in pay for the entire development? I'd guess you're talking tens of thousands of dollars in manpower, you are unreasonable  ;)


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#15 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 08:37

Anyone wanting 2-seater training can easily get it in RoF - free to play, then buy something like the Harry Tate. The flying experience in RoF is so similar to BoX that there is no problem about transferring skills.

( IMHO 1CGS should include a 2-seater each side in the free to play version, but that is another matter).

 

Much as I would like to see a Fairey Swordfish in this game, it is not going to happen :(

 

Perhaps these commercially non-viable planes need patrons?  (I might be good for a Mosquito if such a project was on offer).  

The RoF planes are not really all that easy to fly and don't have dual Controls. 

 

These are finnicky, unstable Biplanes of the early era. A Stearman or Bü131 are no comparison and much easier to handle. 

 

But in General I also think that learning without an engine is the best Way to learn how to fly and in the end produces the better Pilots. That is at least in the Real World. 


Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann, 22 January 2017 - 08:43.

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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#16 Dakpilot

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 14:07

If there were to be a training aircraft we already have the basis for one on the way...

 

Yak 7 UTI was primary advanced trainer from 1942, 3D model and FM is already there, the second cockpit probably uses the same instruments so the extra cockpit work would be minimal compared to any other aircraft, just the 'two pilot' issue to sort out  :)

 

yak7.jpg

 

yak7u.jpg

 

Cheers Dakpilot


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#17 unreasonable

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 14:39

Patron as in pay for the entire development? I'd guess you're talking tens of thousands of dollars in manpower, you are unreasonable  ;)

 

If it was only tens of thousands - yes, if I could pick the plane - ( or perhaps a Middle East map). 

 

I can afford it - never marrying has some benefits.  ;)


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#18 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 14:40

Trainer aircraft could be a nice addon coupled with feautures like shared cockpit controlls, training missions (for SP flyers) and maybe a training map (small area of a bigger map with enough diversity to train VFR flying).

 

As for the question about which type of aircraft to chose from I preferr advanced trainers over basic ones because they're more usefull for teaching ACMs and simulate various combat situations.

For the german side such advanced trainers would be the Ar 96, Bü 181 and the Bf 108.

 

Alternatively type conversion trainers like the mentioned Bf 109 G-12 and Yak 7 UTI would be more profitable choices and more appropiate for combat flight training.

 

The training missions could be designed by players to maximise profit while the training area could easily be taken form one of the existing maps. All together would make for an interesting entry level addon in my opinion.


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#19 unreasonable

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 14:59

The RoF planes are not really all that easy to fly and don't have dual Controls. 

 

These are finnicky, unstable Biplanes of the early era. A Stearman or Bü131 are no comparison and much easier to handle. 

 

But in General I also think that learning without an engine is the best Way to learn how to fly and in the end produces the better Pilots. That is at least in the Real World. 

 

True they do not have dual controls, but not true that the 2-seaters were hard to fly, although I expect the designs from between the wars had better balanced controls. It was only some of the scouts that were finnicky and unstable: the Camel and Dr.1 being like that, the D.VII and Pup not at all. Both of the latter pair are exceptionally easy to fly.

 

On your last point I am sure I have read a German pilot's account saying the same thing. But given the lack of a glider in the game (now and almost certainly forever), the nearest you can get is something like a Fokker E.III, which is little more than a powered glider, or a well behaved 2-seater like the Sopwith Strutter. Turn the engine off over your own field and land RFC style.

 

Great fun and has helped me improve my sim-flying. 


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#20 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 20:17

None of the RoF Planes tolerate bad landing technique. If you want to learn Ground Handling you don't want the WWI Birds. 


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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#21 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:37

Yes, it would be nice. AS A LUXURY, like Klaus Mann said. However, please for the love of sweet 8lb 8oz baby jesus, don't halt development on the real warplanes and game features we know the MAJORITY want just for trainer aircraft we don't need. Once the devs are twiddling their thumbs over a lack of ideas (which never happens), by all means, develop these planes only 5% or less of the player would touch more than once.

 

If you want to learn how to fly, crash the planes we have. You have unlimited and you come back to life. I'll tell you this much, if we could do that IRL, we'd do it. (And we somewhat do already since simulators are a real thing now days. Granted a simulator can't teach you everything, I'm sure)


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#22 =TBAS=Sshadow14

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 01:56

We dont need trainers?

Have you seen the runway etiquette and accidents in Multiplayer. :D

Tho i know what you saying, im just more used to MMO's
where the companies have literally Millions and millions of dollars and if wanted could just hire 10 new people and pump out new content real fast (like gaijin if they wanted to, worth over $28M USD)


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#23 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 03:10

We dont need trainers?

Have you seen the runway etiquette and accidents in Multiplayer. :D

Tho i know what you saying, im just more used to MMO's
where the companies have literally Millions and millions of dollars and if wanted could just hire 10 new people and pump out new content real fast (like gaijin if they wanted to, worth over $28M USD)

Yeah, the Problem with this Market is the little interest People have in Proper WWII Flight Sims, and the even smaller interest in GA Trainers of that time. War Thunder attracts the rather large Mouthbreather End of the Market, the Crowd that is happy to fly vaguely Warbird-Shaped Objects on a Stick basically and has about as much interest and perseverance as a retarded Guineapig. You will never get these people to fly here. 

 

The Sim Battle Community in War Thunder is probably less than 1%, probably less than 0.001% even. Maybe 100 or 200 people active at any one time. 

The CloD community pettily ruined BoS reputation in a War against Jason Williams and hammered it in the Reviews. That effected the early sales massively. 

The small Customer Base doesn't allow the Price to go down a lot and so many people on a Budget won't get it. I don't even know if a PewDiePie could give Il-2 a long needed Boost.

 

I hope there is an undiscovered Demographic somewhere that will Pick Up on these titles, maybe Koreans or Japanese once it goes Pacific, but I have no Clue how much interest there is in WWII in general there. I would gladly take an Advertisement Stand with Promotional Demo Keys and a little Trial Booth for like 20$ with 2 Aircraft in it, drive it around the Airshows here in Germany, Netherlands and Belgium if 777 covers the cost. 

This is I think where a RoF style System would come in Handy, so people can expand their Hangars individually.


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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#24 =TBAS=Sshadow14

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 07:01

Well said..

also did not realize that 1c/777 was so small as such and that Jason is do as much as he is..
i thought he was just another dev on another game..

feel rather bad for my tone on this forum now.

anyways


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#25 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 11:31

We dont need trainers?

Have you seen the runway etiquette and accidents in Multiplayer. :D

So how will trainers fix this, exactly?


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#26 unreasonable

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 12:22

So how will trainers fix this, exactly?

 

Right. You need military police with powers off summary execution to stop that.


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Nullius in verba


#27 LukeFF

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 04:56

So, what frontline aircraft are you guys willing to forgo in exchange for a trainer plane? A trainer 109 instead of a G-6? A trainer Soviet plane instead of an La-5F or Yak-9? Remember, this is a team with limited time, manpower, and resources. 


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#28 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 13:46

So, what frontline aircraft are you guys willing to forgo in exchange for a trainer plane? A trainer 109 instead of a G-6? A trainer Soviet plane instead of an La-5F or Yak-9? Remember, this is a team with limited time, manpower, and resources. 

Not going to say it should put more important things on hold, but the same argument was made about the Ju 52. Look who thinks it is a waste of development time and budget now.

 

Let's just agree it's a nice idea but not overly important nor direly nessecary.


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#29 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 15:35

How about a Community Created DFS Kranich and Antonov A-2 or something. I think if we want that kind of Stuff, we'll have to do it ourselves.

A Glider FM should be a Fraction of what a Motorplane has to include, no Thermodynamics, no Torque, no Nothing. Same for the 3D Model. You have about 4 instruments, and no Pipes and other Complications going everywhere. Implement a Winchlaunch Function and it's all Set.

 

Cockpit.jpg

1757828.jpg?v=v40


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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#30 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 16:10

Not going to say it should put more important things on hold, but the same argument was made about the Ju 52. Look who thinks it is a waste of development time and budget now.

 

Let's just agree it's a nice idea but not overly important nor direly nessecary.

You make a valid point that should be considered.

 

However in this case our assumption is that no one really wants these. They might think it sounds cool, but only ever touch them once.

 

Why do I think this? Training in a trainer isn't needed in a simulator. Also, trainers are not combat effective and this is an air combat simulator.

 

Therefore, I think that the time on these would be wasted as there are more aircraft that could be made that would appeal to more people and fit the theme of the game better.

 

Besides, the JU-52 is not useless like a trainer in a simulator. A JU-52 deals in logistics, which is arguably one of the most important aspects of a war, and they also served as paratrooper planes, and that means that they take part in air combat. JU-52 can actually accomplish objectives in a combat mission such as ferrying needed supplies, and dropping paratroopers.

 

A trainer? There would be no objective that they could accomplish in a combat mission.


Edited by 71st_AH_Scojo, 27 January 2017 - 16:13.

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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#31 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 16:26

A Trainer would have to exist in a Non-Combat but still Competitive Environment of some Sort. That could be Air-Racing, Aerobatics Championships, Target Landings, STOL Competitions, and stuff like flying for Distance in Performance Gliders. 

There are fun ways to compete in civilian Aircraft.


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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#32 II./JG77_Kemp

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 16:28

Maybe not a dedicated trainer, but multirole aircraft that were also used as observation/recon, liaison, night harrassment ... planes. Po-2 for Russians and Ar-66 or Go-145 or Hs-126 (not used as trainer though) for Germans.
Could bring more variety to campaigns.
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#33 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 16:42

Maybe not a dedicated trainer, but multirole aircraft that were also used as observation/recon, liaison, night harrassment ... planes. Po-2 for Russians and Ar-66 or Go-145 or Hs-126 (not used as trainer though) for Germans.
Could bring more variety to campaigns.

If I had to pick one, it'd be the SU-2.

 

It was used to train and performed night raids, in addition to it's regular bombing and recon duties.


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#34 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 16:47

Maybe not a dedicated trainer, but multirole aircraft that were also used as observation/recon, liaison, night harrassment ... planes. Po-2 for Russians and Ar-66 or Go-145 or Hs-126 (not used as trainer though) for Germans.
Could bring more variety to campaigns.

The Po-2 is a MUST HAVE. It's the current year after all, and that Aircraft is Gender Equality. But in all honesty, the Po-2 has a better Bombload than any of the 'Russian' Russian Fighters, at about 350kg. I love the Po-2 and I think it's probably among my favourite Aircraft ever and I will at some point in my Life Restore or Newly Build one to flying Condition.

 

Problem with the Go145 is that it is more of a High Performance Plane with twice the Wingloading and as far as I am aware a Bomblaod not exceeding 150kg. Same for the Ar-66. 

 

I don't think the germans really need a Po-2 Counterpart.  We have the Ju-52, let them have the Po-2, at some point a Fw189 will complement it on the German Side. 


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Hier 6-1-9 Dingsda... äh.. Delta Bravo Foxtrott Tango. Unser Kurs ist 3-3-Zero. Hähäää Hä... Die Hydraulik iss hin, bei uns hat 'n ganz dicker Blitz eingeschlagen... BLBRRRRRR... 210 grad nördlicher Breite und 8 Grad östlicher Länge .... Ja, das sehe ich allein, helfen Sie uns, Sie Pfeife! Wir verlieren jetzt gewaltig an Höhe! ... NIOIOIOIO 6-1-9-6-1-9 Delta Bravo Foxtrott ruft Tower MaranjaaaaaaaAAAAA ... Ja doch, das hab ich der Geige da unten schon erzählt... Höööh, wir fallen??!? ... Mein Bruder, diese verdammte Wildsau. Da sagt das Aas, ein Juwel ist die Mühle... ein SARG ist das, ein verflixter scheiß SARG ist das...HÖ... Hüöööööööööö .... Vater unser im Himmel, wenn du einen retten kannst, dann rette MICH, verdammte Scheeeiiiße!
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#35 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 18:07

You make a valid point that should be considered.

 

However in this case our assumption is that no one really wants these. They might think it sounds cool, but only ever touch them once.

 

Why do I think this? Training in a trainer isn't needed in a simulator. Also, trainers are not combat effective and this is an air combat simulator.

 

Therefore, I think that the time on these would be wasted as there are more aircraft that could be made that would appeal to more people and fit the theme of the game better.

 

Besides, the JU-52 is not useless like a trainer in a simulator. A JU-52 deals in logistics, which is arguably one of the most important aspects of a war, and they also served as paratrooper planes, and that means that they take part in air combat. JU-52 can actually accomplish objectives in a combat mission such as ferrying needed supplies, and dropping paratroopers.

 

A trainer? There would be no objective that they could accomplish in a combat mission.

True. Personally I value trainers more as an asset for online squadroms than to the game itself since it proved to be usefull to have a dual seater for training combat manouvers or certain situations that are better explained 'physicly' than theoreticly. There's surely not lot of use for pure SP players / lone wulfs if it's not complemented with sth like a training campaign (taxiing, takeoff & landing, manouvers, principles of flight) to generate a second interest in such a package.

 

For now, all I'm looking forward to is getting to the Pacific! :)

How about a Community Created DFS Kranich and Antonov A-2 or something. I think if we want that kind of Stuff, we'll have to do it ourselves.

A Glider FM should be a Fraction of what a Motorplane has to include, no Thermodynamics, no Torque, no Nothing. Same for the 3D Model. You have about 4 instruments, and no Pipes and other Complications going everywhere. Implement a Winchlaunch Function and it's all Set.

Relying on comunity work alone is not going to set things in motion. It required a huge dev kit with all kinds of tools to export models, textures, flight models and aircraft system configs to even think about creating an aircraft.

Even than this task is more than easy even for a glider (75% of the FM is aerodynamics and geometry data) and requires a huge amount of ressearch to come up with sth sufisticated enough to be added to the game.


Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka, 27 January 2017 - 18:07.

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#36 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 18:14

True. Personally I value trainers more as an asset for online squadroms than to the game itself since it proved to be usefull to have a dual seater for training combat manouvers or certain situations that are better explained 'physicly' than theoreticly. There's surely not lot of use for pure SP players / lone wulfs if it's not complemented with sth like a training campaign (taxiing, takeoff & landing, manouvers, principles of flight) to generate a second interest in such a package.

 

For now, all I'm looking forward to is getting to the Pacific! :)

Eh, I think the effect of dual control aircraft to train someone is lost in a simulation as you can't actually feel the instructor moving the controls through the maneuver. This means the only benefit it would give is allowing the student to see the maneuver from a cockpit view. This can already be done through replaying flight logs or watching videos. Plus I'd argue watching videos is much more effective as this is a sim and you can train as much as you want and through watching videos, you can repeat something and compare it to the video as many times as you want until you get it down without fear of crashing as you can just reset your plane if you do.

 

Plus the developers have already spoken to "training" and have said they're perfectly content staying out of that area as it's not only hard to implement but also that videos do a much better job of it anyway.

 

Also, I second your sentiment on the Pacific. If for some reason trainer  aircraft are more popular than I think, then I still hope they forgo them until after they finish the Pacific. I'm itching really bad for that theatre change in particular!


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#37 =TBAS=Sshadow14

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 07:45

You are all just party poopers

:P


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