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Uriah

I-16 vs 109 E-17

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I wonder how the highly skilled pilots do in flying these two planes against each other.  I am rather shocked in the single player one on one how well I am able to take on an AI ACE in a 108 E-17 at 1,000 feet.

 

So how is it for the human pilots flying these two planes against each other?

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I-16 vs Bf 109E-7 or E-4 is one of the classic matchups in history.

 

The Emil pilot has a speed advantage but the Rata pilot has a climb and turn advantage. If both flown to their strengths, it comes down largely to pilot skill. Each has an area where it can best the other.

 

I am perhaps not "highly skilled" but: My wingman and I fought 5x i-16s online a few weeks ago. I was able to get 1 only because he made a mistake. The other 4 were flown very well and though they couldn't shoot us down if we stayed out of guns range with our speed, we couldn't really shoot them down either since they were more maneuverable and if we tried to maneuver with them, the unengaged or free fighters would quickly begin climbing above us to set up the kill, requiring us to run. Ultimately it was a stalemate.

 

Theoretically in a 2v2 situation we could have forced them to the deck by extending and then forcing them to maneuver or split-S downward over and over, but sooner or later if you want the kill you either need a good snapshot or you need to start maneuvering with them which makes it hard to maintain a speed advantage against competent opponents.

Edited by JG13_opcode
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I-16 vs BF109 Emil is an absolute classic duel. Highly enjoyable.

 

That airframe is only 1.9 tons and with the 1100hp that's a serious fighting weight for hard climbs and turning on a sixpence. The Emil is nice and light too and with the leading edge slats can be pushed very hard in the turn unlike the viscous i-16 which needs expert concentration.

 

The absolute classic welterweight fight.

Edited by 1./TG1_B0SS

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I can only join the choir in saying, that it's one of the best matchups in the sim and really has a lot to offer on both sides.

 

If I were to give any advantage to either side, I'd say that the Emil can do a bit more with an energy advantage than the I-16.

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If I were to give any advantage to either side, I'd say that the Emil can do a bit more with an energy advantage than the I-16.

This man talks sense. In the end the draggy i-16 airframe can only capitalize on mistakes. The BF109 as always, (perhaps sometimes with the exception of the La-5) has the ability to run and control the initiative.

Edited by 1./TG1_B0SS

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When you have fast and maneuverable plane the fast one should always attempt a vertical spiral (unless it is something like a thunderbolt) after gaining enough speed and having a speed advantage at equal alt.

Edited by Max_Damage

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Interestingly an early GAF pilot account of 109 vs I16 battles said that the I16s at first were difficult to shoot down because they - the 109s - approached too fast. Once they learned to approach at a rather lower speed there was less difficulty.

 

I suppose that reflects Shaw's advice that the faster plane using energy tactics does not need to be screamingly faster: if it is going 20% faster it should be able to control the fight. Additional speed just makes your shooting opportunities shorter.

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If you will in Bf-109E-7 vs Rata - take altitude advantage (if it is possible), always use speed avantage (Emil is faster than Rata) and never never never lost your energy. Dont turn with Rata, is much better in turns like an Emil.

 

From Random Server

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Edited by I./JG1_Baron

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...don't climb below 1.000m, never. Fly fast and straight, and pray to not be sniped of course.

 

I'm sorry we don't have Macchi 200, it would have been a great match.

 

Great fun with this birds.

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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Per taking on AI, from as far back as I can remember (pre Red Baron I) AI has always been better in T&B planes as opposed to energy fighters.  Apparently coding to turn slowly in a tight circle is much easier than coding to take advantage of speed.  This has been true throughout my simming experience and IMHO remains true today.  With that in mind, if you want a good fight against the AI, let the AI have the better horizontal turner.

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Per taking on AI, from as far back as I can remember (pre Red Baron I) AI has always been better in T&B planes as opposed to energy fighters. Apparently coding to turn slowly in a tight circle is much easier than coding to take advantage of speed. This has been true throughout my simming experience and IMHO remains true today. With that in mind, if you want a good fight against the AI, let the AI have the better horizontal turner.

It makes sense that the AI would be better at simply turning in tight circles. Proper energy fighting (not necesarilly BnZ, energy fighting can be a turn fight as well) requires foresight, spacial awareness in 3 dimensions and an inherent sense of both your own and the opponent's energy situation. That's a lot for a PC level AI to handle.

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Yep, focke wulf is the easiest plane to shoot down on single player. He just keeps turning and sledging that heavy beast through the air. You can even just sit behind him in the i-16

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Love flying the Rata, but damn - the Emil is such a sweet ride.

 

Problem for the Rata is the Emil is faster, yet is still maneuverable enough to get a gun solution.

 

Definitely one of the funniest match ups possible.

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Ju-87 vs Rata proved interesting.

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From my experience flying E7 V i16 the E7 has the advantage in a sustained slow speed knife fight and i16 has the advantage as long as he does not get low and slow.  

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From my experience flying E7 V i16 the E7 has the advantage in a sustained slow speed knife fight and i16 has the advantage as long as he does not get low and slow.

Those leading edge slats really are a godsend for the high angle of attack turning right?

Edited by 1./TG1_B0SS

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Reviving and old thread:

 

I am in the E7, coming back from a bombing mission (playing career mode), I am following my wingleader and he is not really at good speed or high altitude;

then a group of I-16s intercepts us; question is: should I dive to just above treetops, boosted power, then keep straight until I have speed? only then start climbing?  

 

trying to climb from the start, even with boost, will be a bad idea because I-16 can climb faster, right?

same about turning, I-16 will win any horizontal plane fight, right?

 

I really like playing with E7 in career mode; somehow it feels too easy to use F2/ F4 as the speed difference against I-16 makes fighting them very easy

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53 minutes ago, Jorge_S said:

Reviving and old thread:

 

I am in the E7, coming back from a bombing mission (playing career mode), I am following my wingleader and he is not really at good speed or high altitude;

then a group of I-16s intercepts us; question is: should I dive to just above treetops, boosted power, then keep straight until I have speed? only then start climbing?  

 

trying to climb from the start, even with boost, will be a bad idea because I-16 can climb faster, right?

same about turning, I-16 will win any horizontal plane fight, right?

 

I really like playing with E7 in career mode; somehow it feels too easy to use F2/ F4 as the speed difference against I-16 makes fighting them very easy

E7 is faster in a straight line, but with the bomb racks on board that might be dicey unless you fly perfectly coordinated. But yeah, achieve separation, then maybe try a zoom climb with the energy you've accumulated? I-16 has better sustained climb but poorer zoom climb IIRC.

That said, the I-16 won't win every horizontal turn fight. At low speeds the leading edge slats of the 109 means you can turn really tight, whereas the I-16 turns best at medium speeds. The other thing you can use against the Rata is the instability. Sharp maneuvers, especially elevator inputs, can send the I-16 into a spin really quick. So rapid changes of direction with some hard turns can throw the I-16 off your tail and burn enough of their speed that you can turn tighter than them. Of course this leaves you vulnerable to their buddies, but if you have no choice this is what I would do...

A fast moving flat scissors might work best in this case - rolling scissors would favour the I-16 since it involves smoother motions of the stick meaning less likely to cause an accelerated stall/spin,  and the I-16 climbs better than you so the vertical component of the rolling scissors favours them. 

Full disclosure: I'm usually the guy flying the I-16, not the 109, so this is just regurgitating what 109E7 drivers have used on me (with great success) while online. 

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Thanks a lot, this really helps!

 

I don't think sharp maneuvers will work against AI, as it can somehow manage, even with "novice" pilots, to do the most acrobatic maneuvers I have seen. In Cliff of Dover, AI fighters hit the ground all the time, in BOX I have never seen it, they just pull up at the last second :)

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jorge_S said:

Thanks a lot, this really helps!

 

I don't think sharp maneuvers will work against AI, as it can somehow manage, even with "novice" pilots, to do the most acrobatic maneuvers I have seen. In Cliff of Dover, AI fighters hit the ground all the time, in BOX I have never seen it, they just pull up at the last second :)

 

 

 

AI pilots will absolutely hit the ground. I have it on film. ;)  Admittedly that is on the Kuban map where there is some terrain to make life difficult for them.

 

But they do it sometimes even on flat land: in my last career mission I am dived on by a second  MiG while turning at low level with another - unable to pull up in time he goes into the forest.   I am sure it varies by aircraft type and speed: if the AI is not too fast he will be able to pull up.

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11 minutes ago, Jorge_S said:

Thanks a lot, this really helps!

 

I don't think sharp maneuvers will work against AI, as it can somehow manage, even with "novice" pilots, to do the most acrobatic maneuvers I have seen. In Cliff of Dover, AI fighters hit the ground all the time, in BOX I have never seen it, they just pull up at the last second :)

 

 

The AI uses the same FM as the player. So they should work against the AI...even if they don't spin and stall, they are avoiding those things by not maneuvering as hard as they possibly could, so you should still gain some advantage. in general the AI plays it fairly conservative with turns and maneuvers I think. 

We're talking about a nightmare scenario here though...low, with bomb racks, with an enemy diving on you with the initiative. Even in an F-2 or F-4 you're going to be in trouble until you can gain the E advantage. Sometimes you're just screwed. 

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Going a bit off topic, would a damage AI (with smoking engine) also play by the same rules as the player?

I swear I have seen very aggressive ratas maneuvering as if nothing happened! lol   

Edited by Jorge_S

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Their engines are certainly affected by damage, although there may be a possibility that the engine formula is a simplified compared to the player: I do not know. But I have been in enough fights where I have damaged an AI fighter so that he is smoking with a longish range shot, and then caught up with him, which I could not do before. Chasing a MiG in an F-2 for instance, it is pretty obvious when the AI has been slowed down.

 

If they are a certain distance away from enemies they will try to RTB when damaged, although I tend to think that they should try do do this sooner or at a lower damage level than we sometimes see in the game. 

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Classic match up!

Second only to Zeke vs Wildcat.

 

I think I’ll throw together a 109 vs I16 perpetual fur-ball mission. 

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1 hour ago, Jorge_S said:

Going a bit off topic, would a damage AI (with smoking engine) also play by the same rules as the player?

I swear I have seen very aggressive ratas maneuvering as if nothing happened! lol   

I encountered that last night. I think it works like this: Basically, if you damage the oil radiator, you get black smoke, same as damaging the engine sometimes. But there is actually little damage to the engine, so until it overheats, there's no problem for the AI.

on a cold map at high speeds, the engine takes a long time to overheat. So just because you see smoke doesn't mean the engine is kaput. Also the AI manages the engine perfectly so they can keep it going longer than most humans. Just my thoughts.

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I think I'd give I-16 tad advantage especially if human flown vs 109E Ai of any difficulty...

 

Rata has nicer machine guns, weapon setup. Emil has complicated but effective cannons (if you hit) with really limited ammo supply, which renders those good only for bomber or ground targets. In classic 1v1 dogfight I-16's machine guns will work better. The only practical Emil's advantage is speed.

 

I'm currently flying 109E in all kinds of scenarios in PWCG career... I fly attack missions primarily but here and there I clash with VVS fighters... If I fly with rack and armour I'm outclassed by everything on VVS side, even I-16... even flying with pure fighter setup with limited fuel does not guarantee you some stellar performance.

 

In 1941 Bf-109E is not really what one would say - hot ride.

 

On 1/14/2017 at 12:32 AM, Uriah said:

Ju-87 vs Rata proved interesting.

 

There was this map in old Sturmovik, I think it was on UK dedicated 2 server, invasion on Poland where you get to fly Ju-87B and P.11c... it is just insane how much fun I had with that setup...  Ju-87 vs I-16 would end one sided I'm afraid, unless Stuka has elite sniper at the backseat - it has little to offer there...

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53 minutes ago, dkoor said:

There was this map in old Sturmovik, I think it was on UK dedicated 2 server, invasion on Poland where you get to fly Ju-87B and P.11c... it is just insane how much fun I had with that setup...  Ju-87 vs I-16 would end one sided I'm afraid, unless Stuka has elite sniper at the backseat - it has little to offer there...

I remember scoring more than 50 kills in the campaign flying I-16's.

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1 hour ago, dkoor said:

There was this map in old Sturmovik, I think it was on UK dedicated 2 server, invasion on Poland where you get to fly Ju-87B and P.11c... it is just insane how much fun I had with that setup...  Ju-87 vs I-16 would end one sided I'm afraid, unless Stuka has elite sniper at the backseat - it has little to offer there...

 

I remember that server…;)...and that setup in particular...The P11c / Stuka match was so great…! :yahoo:;)

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