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Apoll

Not very Good at Dogfighting: some questions for BF 109G-2

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Ok, I'm trying, I really am: I climb for altitude...and stay there. I try to keep my speed up...I try to keep a good look out. But time and time again against Russian fighters, no matter what i do, they always seem to be able to out run me...out turn me (expected), pout shoot me...out climb me. I am clearly flying all wrong. Some questions in the interests of trying to improve what is a consistently poor performance on my part (and I'm sure it isn't the plane..):

 

1)

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Opps...hit post before ready...to continue...

 

1) In a BF109G-2, in a merge or starting as dogfight, what speed should I never let it drop below? 400? 500? The G-2 should be faster than the Russian fighters, right? Then why can't I shake then when I try to run?

2) When I see the profiler of a Russian plane closing in from behind, which I do about 50% of the time, what should be the IA (immediate action)? Should I...drop the nose and build up speed (which doesn't seem to work no matter how fast I go...the Russian fighter is always just behind me ready to pepper me)? Should I stay at same level and watch? Should I begin a slow turn climb? Once a Russian fighter is on my tail, I always get shot down...no matter how fast or how much I climb. What am I doing wrong here?

3) The BF 109G-2 fighter is an energy fighter, right? So don't go low and slow and try to turn with the Russkies at all. I get that. BUT....when I dive and then zoom up again, it seems the Russian fighters are able to keep up with me. Is it because I let my speed drop below 400?

 

Anything else that people have in the way of advice would be great. I was initially quite heavy on the stick...I am trying now to be much smoother and not to panic when I see a Russkie closing in. Is this the right attitude? One more thing: spotting the Russian planes seems overly and incredibly hard. They just merge into the ground and the next thing I know, they are close behind and peppering me...again. What can I do to spot the enemy first? What tips do people have? 

 

Finally, any good youtube vids on fighting the BF109G-2 energy fighter? 

 

Grateful advice, as it is getting rather frustrating being the Russian fighter's friend by getting shot down all the time.

 

Apoll

 

BTW, can't shoot for crap. What vcan I do to improve my ability to hit a fast moving spot in the shy? How have you guns improved your shooting ability? Grateful advice on this too.      

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I'm on my phone so I will just do the General stuff here. Firstly, I fly the 109 similar to how I fly my normal ride, the 190. So, I am not an overly aggressive Schmitt driver.

 

The minimum speed is generally 300kph but that is completely situational. Best climb AND extension is right around 300 kph. This is not strictly BEST CLIMB but more combat oriented. You are really climbing for angle regardless of your initial speed. 300 is, visually, the top edge of the cockpit lights just above the horizon. Pitch for angle and let the speed bleed off naturally to 300. Russian fighters will not be able to remain in a SUSTAINED climb at that pitch angle with you. I'll screenshot this later and include the artificial horizon as this topic comes up often. Remember fighting in the vertical rarely means you go purely vertical.

 

You need to bleed your enemy's energy first and that requires time. If they have a large closure rate neither diving nor climbing is going to help much. You're just gonna have to outmaneuver them or hope friends show up to help. Minimizing that closure rate starts with good situational awareness. Don't stay in a fight or drag for too long and always scan as often as possible. Know when to separate and doing it early is better than trying it late. Another way of saying this is, "you must value your virtual life more than your score."

 

If the closure rate is small I find a gentle climb (350-400) with some jinking is best to bleed their energy. Once you are Co-E almost always climb them up as previously described. I don't know your experience level but I always tell rookies not to follow a Soviet crate through more than 270 degrees until you build up skills and confidence.

 

Hope that helps. More to follow but others will probably beat me to the finer points.

 

I run my convergence at 350. For a beginner I'd say 275-300. Get in tight and light them up. Don't worry too much about distance shooting or high deflection shooting for now. It will come with experience.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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1) Yes, but that speed advantage is not so great that it means you instantly have a get out of jail free card. It takes a long time to get out of guns range. The G2 without 1.42 ATA means this time within guns range will be longer.  You can outrun all but the La5. If they are right up your tail from the start, then attempting to run immediately will probably get you killed.

 

2) You need separation. In every situation the best course of action "depends" on a number of things (relative E states, friendly support available? as just two examples) but as generic advice, drop the nose a bit to even out the speed disadvantage you have then level out or commence a climb and try use your top speed/climb advantage to then extend to a comfortable distance. If the enemy has a considerable energy advantage though, you will get caught and shot down so you need to attempt to identify the enemy and your relative energy states. If you are at a big disadvantage, the only way to change this is to get your enemy to bleed energy. You will likely need to pull off a scissors maneuver or something else to force an overshoot then make a decision to fight or attempt to extend again to regain an advantage.

 

3) Without seeing a track showing what occurred my guess would be that you either A) misjudged their relative E state, or B) attempted your climb too steeply without adequate separation first. Just remember, enemy planes can 'cut the corner' of a steep climb too.

 

 

As an almost full time 109G2 pilot my advice to you would be to use the planes climb advantage to your advantage. Learn how to perform a "Rope-a-dope". Learn how to conserve your 'E' and force the other guy to bleed his. Understand that the 109G2 is surprisingly less maneuverable than the 109F4 than you would think in low E situations and that the nose will wobble and stall quicker in similar scenarios. Understand that most red pilots are very proficient with taking advantage of their maneuverability advantages and control-ability in Low E situations. You either need to avoid those scenarios or bring a friend to bail you out if all goes pear shaped.

 

 

To improve gunnery, fly on a dogfight server where you get frequent opportunities to fire, or fly offline quick missions and setup a plane to practice on.

 

Hope something there helps. Best tip of all, get some time online with another pilot on Teamspeak and ask them to help out. Most would be willing.

Edited by Tripwire
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PM me and I'll see if I or a squadmate can hookup with you. Flying together on TS is exponentially better than trying to figure all of this out for yourself.

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PMs sent. Thanks to HerrMurf and Tripwire. Am also reading GridiroN's similar post below this one.

 

Apoll

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If Russians are following your climb, you are climbing too sharply. The Yak can match a BF109 in a steep climb even with it's flaps deployed. You want to climb in a very shallow, very slow chandelle and they shouldn't be able to catch you unless they have way more energy than you.

 

1) Yes, but that speed advantage is not so great that it means you instantly have a get out of jail free card. It takes a long time to get out of guns range. The G2 without 1.42 ATA means this time within guns range will be longer.  You can outrun all but the La5. If they are right up your tail from the start, then attempting to run immediately will probably get you killed.

 

2) You need separation. In every situation the best course of action "depends" on a number of things (relative E states, friendly support available? as just two examples) but as generic advice, drop the nose a bit to even out the speed disadvantage you have then level out or commence a climb and try use your top speed/climb advantage to then extend to a comfortable distance. If the enemy has a considerable energy advantage though, you will get caught and shot down so you need to attempt to identify the enemy and your relative energy states. If you are at a big disadvantage, the only way to change this is to get your enemy to bleed energy. You will likely need to pull off a scissors maneuver or something else to force an overshoot then make a decision to fight or attempt to extend again to regain an advantage.

 

3) Without seeing a track showing what occurred my guess would be that you either A) misjudged their relative E state, or B) attempted your climb too steeply without adequate separation first. Just remember, enemy planes can 'cut the corner' of a steep climb too.

 

 

As an almost full time 109G2 pilot my advice to you would be to use the planes climb advantage to your advantage. Learn how to perform a "Rope-a-dope". Learn how to conserve your 'E' and force the other guy to bleed his. Understand that the 109G2 is surprisingly less maneuverable than the 109F4 than you would think in low E situations and that the nose will wobble and stall quicker in similar scenarios. Understand that most red pilots are very proficient with taking advantage of their maneuverability advantages and control-ability in Low E situations. You either need to avoid those scenarios or bring a friend to bail you out if all goes pear shaped.

 

 

To improve gunnery, fly on a dogfight server where you get frequent opportunities to fire, or fly offline quick missions and setup a plane to practice on.

 

Hope something there helps. Best tip of all, get some time online with another pilot on Teamspeak and ask them to help out. Most would be willing.

Im curious why you fly the G2 over the F4 if the F4 is superior in those areas. I myself prefer the G2 as a firing platform; I find the F4 exceptionally wobbly and inaccurate, but I'm curious why you do.

Edited by GridiroN

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Im curious why you fly the G2 over the F4 if the F4 is superior in those areas. I myself prefer the G2 as a firing platform; I find the F4 exceptionally wobbly and inaccurate, but I'm curious why you do.

 

Initially it was more for the challenge as the 109F4 was performing exceptionally well against the less experienced pilots I was encountering at the time.

 

I also thought that in future expansions, the advantages of the 109s will be less against later opponents, so I wanted to be more familiar with the heavier 109 for when the more powerful Russian planes showed up.

 

In the end I found that I enjoyed the plane and the view from the cockpit and then continued to fly it whenever the plane was available.

Edited by Tripwire

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Hey GridiroN, I guess I never thought about it. Naively, I assume the G-2 would be a superior platform than the F-4 as it was a later model and thus incorporated improvements. But not so? Hmm. Will give the F-4 a go from now on and see what happens, as I need every bit of assistance I can get.

 

That comment, GridiroN, about climbing too steeply is interesting. Yes, I do seem to be climbing steeply...but not excessively. I keep hearing about the climb advantage of the German fighters over the Ruskies, but have yet to see it clearly. Maybe that's it: too steeply. I will flatten it out and do some experimenting and I will not a damn about being shot down.

 

Thanks GridiroN, much appreciated. Saw you on the Wings of Liberty server yesterday when I was being a sponge for the Ruskies. Will hail you next time and see if you want to do a hop toghether.

 

Apoll

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Hey GridiroN, I guess I never thought about it. Naively, I assume the G-2 would be a superior platform than the F-4 as it was a later model and thus incorporated improvements. But not so? Hmm. Will give the F-4 a go from now on and see what happens, as I need every bit of assistance I can get.

 

That comment, GridiroN, about climbing too steeply is interesting. Yes, I do seem to be climbing steeply...but not excessively. I keep hearing about the climb advantage of the German fighters over the Ruskies, but have yet to see it clearly. Maybe that's it: too steeply. I will flatten it out and do some experimenting and I will not a damn about being shot down.

 

Thanks GridiroN, much appreciated. Saw you on the Wings of Liberty server yesterday when I was being a sponge for the Ruskies. Will hail you next time and see if you want to do a hop toghether.

 

Apoll

 

As the greatest Luftwaffe pilot to ever grace the cockpit of a metal monoplane, I charge $45 for this kind of service... ;)

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Ah! Of course Herr Hartmann. I would consider $45 well spent if it meant I actually presented more of a challenge to those pesky, talented Ruskies in their Tie fighter-like Yaks.

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Here's a video I recently made. Someone who read this thread Pm'ed me asking for further help as they still weren't understanding. Hopefully this will help you Apoll and the PM'er. 

 

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Hey GridiroN, thanks very much. I analysed this vid. Things I noticed was the amount of separation he took after the merge, the lack of obvious turning (ie, he kept whenever possible the aircraft straight, presumably to keep the speed up), the sitting at high altitude and diving down and back up again, and finally, the fact that he never turned with the enemy and if a shot was not ideal, he aborted and climbed back up.

 

I guess I try to do the same but I notice, compared to this guy, I turn much more, I don't have anywhere near the same separation and I guess I make mistakes of following the enemy in a turn too much. I also have difficulty keeping eyes on the target; this guy seems not to have the same issue. I wonder why? He is also much more patient. All good things to emulate.

 

Part of my problem is that at least 50% of the time, I don't see the enemy, meaning I am not spotting them at a reasonable distance. Not sure what I can do about that. The other thing that always seems to get me is the fact that every time I try to climb away, the enemy seems to turn on my tail and actually match my climb and catches me as I'm climbing and turning by this time because I just don't want to be a target drone for them! Not sure what I'm doing wrong here.

 

Finally one last thing: I noticed chatter going on in the background. Is this teamspeak? I admit that I have yet to jump into that particular pool, as I'm just feeling my way on multiplayer and lack a bit of confidence to use teamspeak. But I guess I am going to have to overcome that shyness and start using it as I can immediately see the potential advantage of communicating in real time and thus coordinating. You agree? Does one just jump on teamspeak as you join a server? Is there any protocols involved? Conventions? Do you, for example, intro yourself? Grateful views.

 

Apoll

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Ah! Just realised it's YOU in the video, GridiroN. Re previous post, delete 'he' and replace with 'you'.

 

Apoll

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Hey GridiroN, thanks very much. I analysed this vid. Things I noticed was the amount of separation he took after the merge, the lack of obvious turning (ie, he kept whenever possible the aircraft straight, presumably to keep the speed up), the sitting at high altitude and diving down and back up again, and finally, the fact that he never turned with the enemy and if a shot was not ideal, he aborted and climbed back up.

Yup. All important factors in winning in a 109. You climb better, you dive better and you accelerate faster, so might as well use those traits.

 

I guess I try to do the same but I notice, compared to this guy, I turn much more, I don't have anywhere near the same separation and I guess I make mistakes of following the enemy in a turn too much. I also have difficulty keeping eyes on the target; this guy seems not to have the same issue. I wonder why? He is also much more patient. All good things to emulate.

You can sometimes turn with Russian planes. It's all context and being able to recognize when they're just trying to energy trap you. A common Russian strategy is to make themselves attractive targets by flying straight for a bit and then rolling over into a hard turn to entice you to follow them, or turning again and again but letting you stay behind them. These are all energy traps you don't want to fall for.

 

Part of my problem is that at least 50% of the time, I don't see the enemy, meaning I am not spotting them at a reasonable distance. Not sure what I can do about that. The other thing that always seems to get me is the fact that every time I try to climb away, the enemy seems to turn on my tail and actually match my climb and catches me as I'm climbing and turning by this time because I just don't want to be a target drone for them! Not sure what I'm doing wrong here.

When you say you do not see the enemy, do you mean they're behind you?

 

If you have an Nvidia GPU, use shadowplay, and upload a video. I can probably point out what you're doing wrong.

 

Finally one last thing: I noticed chatter going on in the background. Is this teamspeak? I admit that I have yet to jump into that particular pool, as I'm just feeling my way on multiplayer and lack a bit of confidence to use teamspeak. But I guess I am going to have to overcome that shyness and start using it as I can immediately see the potential advantage of communicating in real time and thus coordinating. You agree? Does one just jump on teamspeak as you join a server? Is there any protocols involved? Conventions? Do you, for example, intro yourself? Grateful views.

You just need to join the server, and introduce yourself. The particular server I was on was the Wings of Liberty server which should be easy to get onto if you visit their site, or join a multi game and read the server/mission description.

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Hi GridiroN, thanks a lot.

 

I mean when I can't see them that at least 50% of the time, it seems, I spot them quite literally when they are close aboard sneaking up on me from behind...the point is they are already behind and I'm at a disadvantage. So they are going low and I can't see them against the ground and they slip by and turn upwards.

 

The broader point is how difficult it is to see these little specks and I'm flying on a high definition monitor. So clearly my situational awareness is not so good and I need practise. I do have a Nvidia GPU...two of em actually. Ok, I will play around and upload something and you can pick it to pieces. Sorry...give constructive feedback.

 

Apoll

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I've been practicing vs veteran ai in 1v1 quick matches and i'm really starting to get frustrated. Flying an f-4 vs yak-1b they stay on my ass all the way from the deck to 9k when flying in a straight line and starting equal energy or i have slightly less. I've tried climbing at all different speeds and angles, 450, 425, 400, down to 280kph, and tried combinations of shallow and steep climbs to try and stall them out.

 

They can never catch me up as long as im going straight, but the second i turn to try and spiral climb they catch right back up and get stuck in a never ending loop all the way to the ceiling. I just can't get enough altitude on them that i can ever dive onto them.

 

I would love for people to let me know what im doing wrong because i can't sufficiently out climb a yak-1b in a 109 that i can ever go offensive.

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I've been practicing vs veteran ai in 1v1 quick matches and i'm really starting to get frustrated. Flying an f-4 vs yak-1b they stay on my ass all the way from the deck to 9k when flying in a straight line and starting equal energy or i have slightly less. I've tried climbing at all different speeds and angles, 450, 425, 400, down to 280kph, and tried combinations of shallow and steep climbs to try and stall them out.

 

They can never catch me up as long as im going straight, but the second i turn to try and spiral climb they catch right back up and get stuck in a never ending loop all the way to the ceiling. I just can't get enough altitude on them that i can ever dive onto them.

 

I would love for people to let me know what im doing wrong because i can't sufficiently out climb a yak-1b in a 109 that i can ever go offensive.

 

Can't really help without a video really. On paper the F4 is the superior plane. 

 

That being said, the 1B is capable of some pretty incredible [Edited]

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
Correct word to use IMO: things.

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Can't really help without a video really. On paper the F4 is the superior plane. 

 

That being said, the 1B is capable of some pretty incredible [Edited]

 

 

As someone who a short while ago did not know what turn and bank indicator was or how to use it....

 

perhaps if you give example of "some pretty incredible [Edited]" maybe you can get more help and information to perhaps explain what your frustration was before claiming [Edited]  ;)

 

I guess what I am saying is getting more info, educating yourself and understanding a potential issue is a better way to avoid wanting to punch a baby

 

Which for the most part is what you have done, maybe there are bugs with 1b, but would it be better to look into it rather than make emotive claims  :)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
"Things" and "that"

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As someone who a short while ago did not know what turn and bank indicator was or how to use it....

 

perhaps if you give example of "some pretty incredible [Edited]" maybe you can get more help and information to perhaps explain what your frustration was before claiming [Edited]  ;)

 

I guess what I am saying is getting more info, educating yourself and understanding a potential issue is a better way to avoid wanting to punch a baby

 

Which for the most part is what you have done, maybe there are bugs with 1b, but would it be better to look into it rather than make emotive claims  :)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Your post here is pretty much all valueless attempts at insulting someone who you think is belittling your beloved plane (which is not what I did) 

 

For starters, I never didn't know what a turn and bank indicator was; I asked someone to explain the slip dot more in-depth, and it is probably the least important aspect of flight. 

 

Second, I never claimed I was the greatest pilot ever. I made my own thread asking for help because I was getting frustrated with things that I myself am not good at. 

 

Third, what the 1B is capable of...is what the 1B is capable of. Whether you think it's "BS" or not is subjective...

 

I'm trying to help someone get better just like some other great people helped me. Next time you want to be a condescending asshole, perhaps you should take a second and ask who it's actually helping...

 

Do not reply to me again unless you have an apology ready. 

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I apologize for insulting you if you felt I was being condescending

 

A. Yak 1b is not my "favorite" aeroplane, you are projecting, I certainly do not prefer Russian aircraft, even though I respect certain design elements

 

B. I would argue that keeping the "ball centered" or in coordinated flight is a more important part aspect of flying than you give credit for

 

C. I gave you credit for helping even bolding it for visibility

 

D. when you say a certain (any) aircraft is capable of "incredible BS" it is not unreasonable to assume you are making a call on the FM, read my post again and you will see I am suggesting it is counterproductive to make vague blanket statements

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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B. I would argue that keeping the "ball centered" or in coordinated flight is a more important part aspect of flying than you give credit for

 

 

Yes, especially i find when getting that 'sweet spot' bank/elevation tight spiral climb angle in a 109 while maintaining ~300kph which is a lot harder in this game than CloD (which i like)

 

I'm surprised in this game how much right rudder i still need while spiraling left at a very steep left bank to keep ball aligned. Not complaining or anything, just interesting - if this sim is accurate - how strong the engine torque is.

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Guest deleted@30725

Imo the only way to truly beat your enemy is to master his own plane and then use the now known weaknesses to crush him.

 

I never fly the AI though - they're too perfect. Humans make mistakes and can be pressured into failure.  If one truly values his virtual pilot it's only a matter of time before he makes a mistake which is when you can turn the tables.

 

Less think of what 'the best plane is' than the tactics in the moment to plan your next moves. You are dancing in the sky and only an idiot will follow a plane that can theoretically climb better than him.

 

If you know your enemy, you know his weakness so you play to your strengths. I also have my own set of 'tricks' ready which sometimes work more than not.

Edited by deleted@30725

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