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I am going to punch a baby... please teach me how to stop sucking at dogfights while I take an ice bath...sigh.


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#1 GridiroN

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 04:26


youtube.com/watch?v=vBXXx1Oz9HY


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#2 TunaEatsLion

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 05:35

I stink at df, but you could have just kept going straight (slow turn) to extend out another 2 km in front of mig instead of losing all speed in climb right after miss. Also hard for me to remember, "Don't pick fights with anyone above you."

Edited by Smok, 21 November 2016 - 05:37.

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#3 GridiroN

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 05:53

I stink at df, but you could have just kept going straight (slow turn) to extend out another 2 km in front of mig instead of losing all speed in climb right after miss. Also hard for me to remember, "Don't pick fights with anyone above you."

 

The thing that bothers me about this is that when I play Russian, I've dogfought Germans who completely ignored what you *ought* to do and I still felt like they bullied me around the sky. I don't get it. 


Edited by GridiroN, 21 November 2016 - 05:54.

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#4 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 05:58

Mistakes I noticed:
- you stalled your aircraft several time which made you lose a lot of energy
- target fixation (always need to check 6 even in an engagement)
- you engaged in a turn fight against a similar well turning opponent equalizing the terms of the fight
- typical "lost sight - lost fight" situation around the middle of the video

My advise would be to get together with a more expirienced pilot and train some 1vs1s (it's very repetetive but will give you more valuable feedback than watching the replay). Also try to familiarize more with the aircraft until you clearly know the point of stall and how to avoid it.

There are good videos on energy fighting tactics. If you haven't it's worth getting into the subject since it increases your effectiveness in german aircraft significantly.

Also hard for me to remember, "Don't pick fights with anyone above you."

Generally speaking this is true, although there are exceptions:
1. You're significantly faster than your opponent
2. You're well trained in defensive fighting and/or have allies nearby who can help out

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka, 21 November 2016 - 06:07.

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#5 216th_LuseKofte

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 06:28

I have noticed I am too old for dogfighting, I find it to be a situation you do not want to be in. So far I have not read about 1 single pilot during WW2 that liked dogfights. 

You should spend time practising marksmanship, I do not got it myself , but zooming in on a enemy that have no clue you are there is a far better idea.

Patience is the key here, or just fly bombers


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#6 GridiroN

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:08

Mistakes I noticed:
- you stalled your aircraft several time which made you lose a lot of energy


Stalling is undesirable, but given he was in front of me both times and the first time, attempting to kill my friend instead, I didn't see a downside to pushing the plane harder than it wanted.
 

- you engaged in a turn fight against a similar well turning opponent equalizing the terms of the fight


I don't get this one. If I don't turn with him, the fight goes completely vertical, which the BF109 should be superior in IN THEORY, but in practice what always happens is either the Russian makes extremely sharp climbs and dives in an attempt to catch me with a yakflap hang, or he turns the fight into a scissor'ing match with is basically complete 50/50 luck whoever evens their plane out first. If I try to energy fight and avoid both those two scenarios, the Rus just flies in circles and gives me extremely unlikely deflection shots until he's eventually behind me. I don't understand how to position myself any better.
 

My advise would be to get together with a more expirienced pilot and train some 1vs1s (it's very repetetive but will give you more valuable feedback than watching the replay). Also try to familiarize more with the aircraft until you clearly know the point of stall and how to avoid it.


Hmm. I suppose that's where I'm at now, yea.
 

There are good videos on energy fighting tactics. If you haven't it's worth getting into the subject since it increases your effectiveness in german aircraft significantly.


Do you know where to find these? I hvaen't been able to find any combat training videos anywhere.

Edited by GridiroN, 21 November 2016 - 09:10.

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#7 Zippy-do-dar

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:50

Do you know where to find these? I haven't been able to find any combat training videos anywhere.

 

On this forum very helpful

 

http://forum.il2stur...-sweetfx-updat/


Edited by Zippy-do-dar, 21 November 2016 - 10:51.

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#8 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 12:31

Stalling is undesirable, but given he was in front of me both times and the first time, attempting to kill my friend instead, I didn't see a downside to pushing the plane harder than it wanted.

It's bad to act out of desperation if you're in the offence in a fight. No matter how much your team mate is under attack and calling for help you always have to keep your own safety in mind before reacting, else you may both end up being traped.

Trading energy for a quick kill is ok if you can knock your enemy out of action with a single burst. If this isnt the case, like in the video, you just gave up your advantage and made yourself an easier target for him and other enemies who might be around the area.

I don't get this one. If I don't turn with him, the fight goes completely vertical, which the BF109 should be superior in IN THEORY, but in practice what always happens is either the Russian makes extremely sharp climbs and dives in an attempt to catch me with a yakflap hang, or he turns the fight into a scissor'ing match with is basically complete 50/50 luck whoever evens their plane out first. If I try to energy fight and avoid both those two scenarios, the Rus just flies in circles and gives me extremely unlikely deflection shots until he's eventually behind me.

If you had kept your energy in that fight instead of forcing a deflection shooting solution you had no issue extending and climbing away from the Mig (which by that time would still have been in a turn). Than, instead of diving on him again, you cpuld have attempted a "rope a dope" (slow climbing in a spiral with increasingly sharp turn radius) to set an energy trap for the Mig. Once he stalls out you have the ultimate upperhand against him while he is busy getting out of the spin.

Of course it does not nessecarily have to end like this depending on both opponents energy state, pilot skill (a skilled pilot recognizes an energy trap and won't follow) and other factors but it's the common way of energy fighting.

Also the Mig does not have tge same flaps as the Yak and is definately disadvanted with them in a vertical fight.

Don't know why he should have tried to outscissor you, but no matter what climbing away is always an option if your energy state is higher. If you follow the scissor/turn and burn your energy (which is the whole point of a scissor manouver) you loose that option and fight on worse terms.

Do you know where to find these? I hvaen't been able to find any combat training videos anywhere.

I'm on my phone, but there are some very good tutorials by Requiem for RoF and also some others for War Thunder I know of (the tactics explained do apply to any sim and any kind of aircraft).


Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka, 21 November 2016 - 14:28.

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#9 Trooper117

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 13:37

You spent long periods zoomed in and lost peripheral vision around you. 

This also means you were loosing situational awareness.

Don't waste time typing in the chat bar when enemies are close by (for obvious reasons)

At least twice you handed the advantage to your opponent.

Plus the other reasons mentioned by previous posters.

 

I never got worried about dog fighting even in the old IL2... for me it's all about being in the environment and taking part.

Getting kills was secondary to the overall objective.

If the chance of bouncing someone came along I'd take it, but if the enemy looked like gaining the advantage I'd break contact and get out of it. You can always come back after you have regained altitude having exited the combat area.

 

If you are fixated on just getting kills, then you probably have to expect to get bested by many other pilots beforehand.

My advice, don't worry about it... the more you do the more experience you will pick up and the better you will get.


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#10 GridiroN

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 02:34

At least twice you handed the advantage to your opponent.


How?

I never got worried about dog fighting even in the old IL2... for me it's all about being in the environment and taking part.
Getting kills was secondary to the overall objective.
If the chance of bouncing someone came along I'd take it, but if the enemy looked like gaining the advantage I'd break contact and get out of it. You can always come back after you have regained altitude having exited the combat area.
 
If you are fixated on just getting kills, then you probably have to expect to get bested by many other pilots beforehand.
My advice, don't worry about it... the more you do the more experience you will pick up and the better you will get.


I mean, I have hundreds of hours in this sim. Of course 've enjoyed my time. But, there comes a point when a lack of proficiency at anything becomes frustrating.
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#11 JG19_DendroAspis

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 05:20

I saw at least 2 gun solutions you missed. The top/best players don't miss those. Its harsh but if you don't get those vital early hits in you are asking for trouble by dancing on the deck with the reds.

 

The rolling scissors at 5 min you seemed to pull out right in front of him but I can't figure out what happened there as you suddenly seemed to then focus and chase a low target. I thought he had you there as well but he seemed to disappear??

 

At the end when you chased the mig down you clearly handed the advantage to him by overshooting and gently pulling up in clear view in front of him. If you take the risk of chasing a bandit and he knows you are there, you have to do everything you can to not end up in front of him in a gentle climb. You should have approached him from low (in his blindspot), taken a burst  and pulled away to the left (he was going slightly right).

 

Its easy for us to analyse and comment but bear in mind I make the same mistakes, and more.... what makes matters worse is the reds are able to take full advantage if you make a mistake and you will almost certainly not get out alive.


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#12 novicebutdeadly

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 10:46

How?


I mean, I have hundreds of hours in this sim. Of course 've enjoyed my time. But, there comes a point when a lack of proficiency at anything becomes frustrating.

 

Big mistake at 1:15, you have plenty ammo just hold your triggers down in that situation


 


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#13 Trooper117

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 12:47

I have been flying combat sims for years and years... I still make lots of mistakes. You gave away your height advantage and you lost sight of your target. When that happens to me, whether I have caused it or the enemy pilot has engineered it, I leg it... especially if I am alone without a wingman.

 

Watch your own video several times... you will see all those mistakes mentioned. 

I'm certainly not any better than yourself, and I have nowhere near your hours invested in this game.

 

I have a go at pretty much all the planes in the game. I would probably be better if I stuck to one exclusive nation, and one type of aircraft. Perhaps  you fall into the same category?

 

I've already stated how I approach any flight sim... it's all about taking part and trying to help achieve an objective, and certainly not driven by getting kills... that's probably why after all these years I'm not as good as I should be, lol!


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#14 TP_Jacko

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 13:09

You could read this classic

https://www.amazon.c...t/dp/9197607703


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#15 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 13:21

Incase you still are interested, those are the videos I meant:

Boom & Zoom

youtube.com/watch?v=UhYaRX8plzU

'Rope a dope'

youtube.com/watch?v=cQWyrOSB6uw

Defensive Tactics vs Energy Fighters

youtube.com/watch?v=P8jpqT_CUvM

 

This one includes more basic stuff, gets interesting around the middle.

youtube.com/watch?v=Na7O8_v8fsc


Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka, 22 November 2016 - 13:22.

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#16 GridiroN

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 06:12

You could read this classic
https://www.amazon.c...t/dp/9197607703


I've read it. I understand the theory just fine. I am having a lot of difficulty putting it into practice.

Incase you still are interested, those are the videos I meant:
Boom & Zoom

youtube.com/watch?v=UhYaRX8plzU
'Rope a dope'
youtube.com/watch?v=cQWyrOSB6uw
Defensive Tactics vs Energy Fighters
youtube.com/watch?v=P8jpqT_CUvM
 
This one includes more basic stuff, gets interesting around the middle.
youtube.com/watch?v=Na7O8_v8fsc


Thank you, I'll watch these tomorrow after work when I get time. In the mean time, I posted 2 other case studies. Forgive the video skips/stutter, it's a bug with Shadowplay Nvidia hasn't fixed yet.


youtube.com/watch?v=y7i1lUQOjKw

youtube.com/watch?v=u_FKkhg-yGk
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#17 Tripwire

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 12:28

Case 3, some negatives first -

 

@3:40, any climb rate advantage you have there is instantly negated by allowing your enemy to cut the corner. At the resolution I watched, im not sure if you thought your enemy had given up or not, but if you knew the enemy was there, only a climb in the same direction above or at your best climb speed can get you either out of trouble or into a position to turn the tables without huge risk.

 

Just for comparison, from the deck, it usually takes me in a G2 a climb up to 3.5 to 4k until I am in a position to successfully pull off a rope-a-dope or reversing the fight if you start out at Co-E with a bandit on your 6.

 

@5:15, you fired way too early with a low probability of hit.

 

@5:40, you stalled trying too hard to get some cannon rounds in - but then lost visibility of your enemy. As someone else said before loose sight, loose the fight. Its my most frequent undoing. It looks like your enemy might have fortunately lost sight of you too as he was about to take the advantage and you might not have gotten away from that encounter. Only attempt a stalling firing solution if you are almost certain of a hit. The energy cost is significant and you may not have options afterwards.

 

 

A good point -

 

You were able to identify when you had lost the advantage and commenced disengaging from the fight early enough. Not every battle is yours to be won, so knowing when you can disengage or not is key to survival. You MUST know the plane type before trying to run. If it is an LA5 you need to add climb or you won't be getting away. Stay low when running. People don't hit as frequently when they also have to worry about flying into the ground or trees. Also, never start your climb too soon or at too great a rate, as the enemy cuts the corner of your climb and you get a nasty surprise. You need separation first, then climb.


Edited by Tripwire, 23 November 2016 - 12:30.

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#18 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 12:29

Not an awefull lot to say about the second video, clouds always put a limit on deployement of air combat tactics. However, at 1:45 the Yak passes you from below unable to get a shooting solution and disengages into a cloud layer. Your reaction was to bank and turn hard trying to possibly get a shot on him. That's bad because you

 

- lose a lot of altitude ending up below the Yak

- gave up your altitude advantage which initially saved you from getting shot

- are too far away to set a shot on him anyway

 

What you could (should) have done instead:

- turn slightly towards the Yak while continuing to climb

- get above the cloud and wait for him to pop out again. If not abort the chase and escape while keeping your altitude to avoid a suprise attack from the Yak.

 

On 3rd video:

 

- (3:20) right decision to abort the attack after overshoting the Lagg

 

- (4:00) you notice the Lagg climb behind you and franticly push your aircraft into a dive to escape despite the Lagg not being able to hit you. Instead you could have shallowed your climb while keeping enought speed to manouvre and lure the Lagg into a 'rope a dope'

 

- (5:30) you try hitting the Lagg from an unfavourable angle and stall your airplane in an attemt to get a shot on him bleeding energy and making you an easier target for him. Instead you should have recognized the unability to get a shot on him, eased your turn and keep your speed up to be able to climb back to altitude and attack again from a more favourable position or to be able to escape


Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka, 23 November 2016 - 12:31.

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#19 [TWB]Sketch

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 13:17

Most of the videos were kinda moot. You fly low because of the clouds and you and your crew want to cap the last objective. The last minute of "case 3" you engage a Yak and you show how you spotted him and what you did. However, the rest of the video - when you lost sight of him - is missing. I analyzed my thoughts for that last minute or so. Basiclly, don't do what you did here again.

 


youtube.com/watch?v=AvH6YaB9XpQ

 

 

 

Some other tips:

- take off "cinematic mode" in the camera options. This will get rid of motion blur

- adjust zoom levels to about 40-70% instead of where they are now. You'll zoom in and out faster. 

- rebind your stabilizer to an axis and use it.

- set your hatswitch to look behind, side, and in front of you. Use the hatswitch and irtracker together for maximum situational awareness

- don't play when you're frustrated; it's a game (or so they say)

- fly with friends (you're welcome to fly with me anytime)

- other stuff... Oh yea, global advantages versus plane advantages. Use global advantages as often as possible - a Stuka diving on an unsuspecting LA5 has the global advantages of height, and surprise... the LA5 isn't going to win the initial engagement even though the LA5 is a better fighter than the Stuka. If the Stuka scores hits, then he wins. If not, then the Stuka should tuck tail and run for the hills... because now it's the LA5's plane advantages over the Stuka. These sorta of decisions should be made each time you engage with the enemy. 


Edited by [TWB]Sketch, 23 November 2016 - 13:31.

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#20 2./JG51_stug41

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 18:59

Ha, that's baetz and I blabbing in the background. We fly fighters too so feel free to join us on TS if you see us on.
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#21 GridiroN

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 05:07

Sketch" post="412695" timestamp="1479907039"]
Most of the videos were kinda moot. You fly low because of the clouds and you and your crew want to cap the last objective. The last minute of "case 3" you engage a Yak and you show how you spotted him and what you did. However, the rest of the video - when you lost sight of him - is missing. I analyzed my thoughts for that last minute or so. Basiclly, don't do what you did here again.

Some other tips:
- take off "cinematic mode" in the camera options. This will get rid of motion blur
- adjust zoom levels to about 40-70% instead of where they are now. You'll zoom in and out faster. 
- rebind your stabilizer to an axis and use it.
- set your hatswitch to look behind, side, and in front of you. Use the hatswitch and irtracker together for maximum situational awareness
- don't play when you're frustrated; it's a game (or so they say)
- fly with friends (you're welcome to fly with me anytime)
- other stuff... Oh yea, global advantages versus plane advantages. Use global advantages as often as possible - a Stuka diving on an unsuspecting LA5 has the global advantages of height, and surprise... the LA5 isn't going to win the initial engagement even though the LA5 is a better fighter than the Stuka. If the Stuka scores hits, then he wins. If not, then the Stuka should tuck tail and run for the hills... because now it's the LA5's plane advantages over the Stuka. These sorta of decisions should be made each time you engage with the enemy.

Hey Sketch,

Thanks for taking the time to make a video. I cut the video there because after the engagement, nothing happened. I ran to the airfield, he chased me for maybe 12km and broke off. Same with the other video, we never saw each other after he charged me from below.

In any case, I suppose my question would be, he cut right in front of me, and proceeded to my hard right behind me. If I extend, what do I do after that? Because when I try this methodology, which is what I've been doing for quite some time my dogfights always go the same way: the Russian begins dodging my high E attacks with sharp turns, and eventually turns the fight into a scissor contest. When I flew Russian for a while to see what other 109 pilots do, they seemed to have no trouble turning with me and killing me pretty straight-forwardly.

I'm not understanding how you turn the advantages of the 109 into a kill without being forced to take extremely high deflection shots from above, or sniping before the Russian belly flops.

 


Ha, that's baetz and I blabbing in the background. We fly fighters too so feel free to join us on TS if you see us on.
 
Yea, we've flown together a few times. I dunno if you remember. lol.

Edited by GridiroN, 24 November 2016 - 05:09.

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#22 [TWB]kl0udy

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 08:49

Stalling is undesirable, but given he was in front of me both times and the first time, attempting to kill my friend instead, I didn't see a downside to pushing the plane harder than it wanted.
 

I don't get this one. If I don't turn with him, the fight goes completely vertical, which the BF109 should be superior in IN THEORY, but in practice what always happens is either the Russian makes extremely sharp climbs and dives in an attempt to catch me with a yakflap hang, or he turns the fight into a scissor'ing match with is basically complete 50/50 luck whoever evens their plane out first. If I try to energy fight and avoid both those two scenarios, the Rus just flies in circles and gives me extremely unlikely deflection shots until he's eventually behind me. I don't understand how to position myself any better.
 

Hmm. I suppose that's where I'm at now, yea.
 

Do you know where to find these? I hvaen't been able to find any combat training videos anywhere.

i feel like when i initiate scissors on purpose they are 80% successful.. and that sometimes means i just didnt die. maybe i kill him, maybe i dont maybe someone else does, but it gets me out of a situation i was 100% at a disadvantage and can reset the positions of both planes so i have a different chance other than just being on the recieving end of direct pursuit. yes you stalled  afew times and i could see that theres a little bit of a problem with not flying smooth on your controls... i sense you might be gripping ur stick very hard while ur fighting.. try to relax especially while aiming.. it helps tremendously... i have other stuff i could maybe help you with but ull have to find me on teamspeak twb ts is ts3.thewetbandits.org

or add me ons team to contact me http://steamcommunity.com/id/kl0udy/


youtube.com/watch?v=niMS_X0aa8I


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#23 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 13:03

the Russian begins dodging my high E attacks with sharp turns, and eventually turns the fight into a scissor contest. When I flew Russian for a while to see what other 109 pilots do, they seemed to have no trouble turning with me and killing me pretty straight-forwardly.

When you boom on an enemy flying a scissor or turning sharply out of your aim you should not follow him nor slow down to stay behind him. Reason is that your enemy is bleeding energy while manouvering trying to make you bleed yours so he can engage you in a turnfight. Best is to pull up once you realise ypur enemy is manouvering, make a half barrel roll and immediately engage him again from above. This manouvre can be performed so quickly that your enemy has no time to engage you and has to avoid your attack.

Also it's important to judge the risk of an attack. You may get an easy kill by turnfighting a Lagg at ground level but doing so may make you an easy kill for any other aircraft coming in with more energy.
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#24 DerNeueMensch

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 16:30

At the risk of giving advice on things nobody asked about I just wanted to write a little bit, because I can relate to your feelings, I'm just describing things from my own perspective as a not so experienced pilot and don't want to come off as a smartass. I know, you know probably most of the things, but a different perspective sometimes may help; I found out some things on my own or by listening to more experienced pilots; and those things I keep in mind and they help me so may be they help you as well. I wrote more than I intended and not so much on the clip you posted.

 

Attitude

The overall consensus in the simulator community seems to be trying to make the flying as immersive as possible and that includes to value your virtual life like it was your real one. That might be an enjoyment in itself, although for me that is more a privilege, that I must earn. If I approached the game with that mentality from the start, I feel like I would hinder my progress and more importantly kill the enjoyment. I think of it this way: In real life pilots train an incredible amount of hours (theory and practice) for real life combat situations, that for many won't happen. So at first I did not care about getting shot down, and also wasn't afraid to fly stupidly even in MP, because I thought of it not as real life flying, but as a training exercise. That is the one advantage virtual pilots have before real pilots; their actions have no real consequences. The ones who are able to fly like they value their virtual like their real life, are very experienced pilots - never forget, that you are flying with and against people, who may have been flying simulators for literally decades (yes that's plural); longer than there have been First-Person-Shooters around. Trying to not get shot down and scoring kills is just a completely unrealistic goal and I was feeling, that I set myself up for failure trying to achieve something like that, having flown only for a couple of months, when I started out.

 

Seeing the flying experience as some sort of training does help me not to get mad, when I'm being shot down; and trust me I know a thing or two of getting mad - the feeling of helplessness, which soon turns into pure rage and despair; I've experienced it in sports and other games, which I pursued in a serious manner (which for me means, that I play with the intent of improving) and I've noticed, that I only feel that way, when I link the enjoyment to my success and winning; fortunately I just like the virtual sensation of flight, so I enjoy every sortie in that very simple fashion, even if I get shot down.

 

Situational Awareness

That being said, in every trade comes a time, where you feel stuck and as if you made no progress; and worse of all, things you deemed you understood seem incomprehensible at once. Flight-Track reviewing is a crucial aspect of improving, however sometimes it's best not to overthink things; the most crucial part of mastery: an intuition what to do and a feel - you only get those things with time so to speak naturally. Take Situational Awareness, everyone seems to know that it is the most important part of being a good pilot, and I don't want to contest that, however I would claim, that it's hard to train SA, you have to be in a hectic ever changing highly competitive environment, like MP to develop it, and it comes naturally so to speak. Other things you can train, and more often than not it's the details that matter! Gordon Ramsey decides, whether to hire a cook based on his skills to cook simple scrambled eggs; basically all martial arts (western or eastern) are based on the mentality to repeat one punch or kick thousands and thousands of times in order to perfectionnate them.

 

Shooting: Simple things I do to improve

You can't really train SA, it will come with time in my limited experience, but you can f.e. train shooting, I sometimes just set up a SP mission, where I start with the altitude advantage and bounce on a single yak, they will turn hard and that results in a repeatable deflection shot. I repeat this single shot over and over again. Those little things help me a lot and it isn't as boring as it might sound. Above all, when I line up a shot I do that with the mindset, that I will hit and kill the bandit, I don't shoot thinking: 'I might hit him', or: 'oh, boy, I hope, that I will hit him/her'. That includes taking time to aim, even when at risk that the badit will see me and brake and I have to abort/go in the vertical.

Also: If you watch videos from good pilots, often they kill an enemy in one pass, this must always be the goal and the ability to shoot accurately will free up much time to look around to assess the situation and get SA after you were fixated on a target. Good shooting therefore, enables you to acquire better SA.

 

Allow yourself to fly stupidly

I think I subcontiously decide before a sortie, if I'm more in the mood to experiment, be aggressive and may be even go into stupid furballs, or to strictly Boom and Zoom and take a more conservative approach. There are probably places and times when you should try hard and fly conservative (Tactical Air War might be such an environment since your performance affects the overall outcome directly), but there are also times to experiment, because after all some mistakes you have to experience in order to avoid them.  But it also means to take risks and push the boundaries of what you thought is right and you will score an odd kill which you shouldn't have gotten just because you were stupid, such things help me to conserve the fun.

 

Last but not least, to fly with other people increases your chance of survival, (ask them in TS to make a sortie with you) you learn a lot from others and the communication that comes with it is a skill in itself which one has to train in order to learn it, because it is not as easy as it may seem at first. But I know you do that already.


Edited by DerNeueMensch, 24 November 2016 - 16:34.

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#25 [TWB]Sketch

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 14:13

In any case, I suppose my question would be, he cut right in front of me, and proceeded to my hard right behind me. If I extend, what do I do after that? Because when I try this methodology, which is what I've been doing for quite some time my dogfights always go the same way: the Russian begins dodging my high E attacks with sharp turns, and eventually turns the fight into a scissor contest. When I flew Russian for a while to see what other 109 pilots do, they seemed to have no trouble turning with me and killing me pretty straight-forwardly. I'm not understanding how you turn the advantages of the 109 into a kill without being forced to take extremely high deflection shots from above, or sniping before the Russian belly flops.

 

 

As others have said, you want to reset yourself on the "perch" for another go. Let me show you the stats so can see why it's a bad idea to dance with a Yak at low levels.

 

Bf 109 F-4

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Combat: 522 km/h   <--- On the deck, your speed is only 8 kmh faster than the Yak  

Maximum performance turn at sea level: 20.3 s, at 270 km/h IAS.              <--- you also turn at nearly the same speed (without flaps) - And the Yak can deploy it's flaps way faster than you can.

Climb rate at sea level: 19.5 m/s                                                                       <--- you have a clear advantage in climb rate. 2.5 m/s doesn't seem like much but it is - A Yak that's on the deck (with no energy) isn't going to catch you. 

 

Maximum true air speed at 2000 m, engine mode - Combat: 570 km/h     <--- at 2k, you start seeing separation. Here it's 20kph faster - not much difference but the higher you go the faster you get over the Yak

Maximum performance turn at 3000 m: 26.1 s, at 270 km/h IAS.

 

Maximum true air speed at 6000 m, engine mode - Combat: 635 km/h    <--- See at 6k, you're about 50 kph faster. Huge advantage! (Russian pilots don't really like to fight at this altitude... for this reason) 

 

 

Yak-1 series 69

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Nominal, 2550 RPM: 514 km/h

Maximum performance turn at sea level: 19.2 s, at 270 km/h IAS.

Climb rate at sea level: 16.9 m/s

 

Maximum true air speed at 2000 m, engine mode - Nominal, 2700 RPM: 549 km/h

Maximum performance turn at 3000 m: 24.6 s, at 270 km/h IAS.

 

Maximum true air speed at 4000 m, engine mode - Nominal, 2700 RPM: 582 km/h

 

Hopefully you can see that the 109 doesn't have as big advantage as most players believe it does. This is especially true below 2k. On top of that, most players never take their 109 into combat mode for fear of breaking their engine. (The listed speeds above are in continous mode.) The 109F4 can combat for 30 minutes; use that advantage!

 

You have to use global advantages instead (energy, altitude, and friends). Be patient, wait for the right time... dive in - miss or hit - extend and climb away. Rinse and repeat. But Sketch, I suck at shooting! So what?! You're going to miss and miss and miss. Don't give up on this plan. Are you still alive? Did you cause the enemy to lose altitude/speed/ammo/etc? Did you give your friend an opportunity to shoot? Then, you're doing well. 

 

But what if the Yak is at your altitude when the engagement starts? Extend away and climb more - if the Yak follows... you climb faster and as you gain altitude, you go faster too. 


Edited by [TWB]Sketch, 27 November 2016 - 14:22.

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#26 GridiroN

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Posted 30 November 2016 - 01:28

Hey, thanks again Sketch for the technical info. It did come in handy. I also took some time to look over my technical settings, especially my camera, and switched it off "cinematic". I had no idea I was using that floaty, hazy camera both inside AND outside the cockpit. Makes a difference. 

Here's a recent video of a dogfight I engaged in with commentary. I fight two MiGs at medium-high altitude, who were both clanners and likely voice communicating and frag them both. This is probably my greatest accomplishment in this sim, and it was mostly accomplished with a strong shift back to basics thanks to you guys, Sketch and Stuka. 

 


youtube.com/watch?v=Nr5koRT_vx4


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1UjZMDj.png


#27 401-Nazgul

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 02:33

As a beginner the mistake I made was trying to turn with everyone.   As a rule of thumb, the faster your plane is the less you should be trying to out turn anyone.  In the old IL2 taking a few weeks in a P-47 or a Fw-190 was one of the best "schools" you could go to to get rid the "dogfighting" disease.  You're far better off finding someone that isn't paying attention or has lost a lot of speed and dropping down on them from above taking a shot and going back to altitude (boom and zoom.)  Turn and burn dogfights with aerobatics, etc... were WW I not WW 2.  There are very few planes in the game that are truly good it that type of fighting.  In WW II the only planes that were good at that turn and burn stuff were the Zero and some of the old leftover biplanes IMO (although a Spitfire could give a good account against most other planes in that type of a fight.)  Most of the good turning planes were hopelessly slow compared to their opponents so they were just targets against planes that took a shot ran away and just tried again until they got hits while they were too slow to escape.  You'll be far better off in the long run fighting with hit and run tactics than trying to dogfight.  Historically, most pilots that were shot down never saw the enemy.  There was no "dogfight".


Edited by 401-Nazgul, 08 December 2016 - 03:50.

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#28 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 12:39

When you boom on an enemy flying a scissor or turning sharply out of your aim you should not follow him nor slow down to stay behind him. Reason is that your enemy is bleeding energy while manouvering trying to make you bleed yours so he can engage you in a turnfight. Best is to pull up once you realise ypur enemy is manouvering, make a half barrel roll and immediately engage him again from above. This manouvre can be performed so quickly that your enemy has no time to engage you and has to avoid your attack.

Also it's important to judge the risk of an attack. You may get an easy kill by turnfighting a Lagg at ground level but doing so may make you an easy kill for any other aircraft coming in with more energy.

 

highyoyob.gifThis?


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#29 Fern

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 14:16

Gridiron, I feel your pain. I feel like I'm watching my replays. I feel like if you take peoples advice here, the process of the dog fight could go on FOOOREEEEEVA. Like an endless loop of 109 booms, (any) russian plane breaks, 109 zooms, russian plane climbs to six, 109 stalls, wobbles all over the [edited] place, rolls over, tries to boom, repeat process; especially if your deflection shots [edited]

 

Another thing also, when ever I'm almost to the point of a guns solutions, I'm almost stalled out or the plane wobbles all over the place making it difficult, probably because I pulled too hard on stick. 

 

This game is becoming severely frustrating. If I'm on, you'll see me rage quit a lot.


Edited by SYN_Haashashin, 11 January 2017 - 18:18.

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#30 grimm862

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 00:59

Back when I played in MP basically when the game came out I found using standard boom and zoom in the 109 was extremely effective. Although the game was new at the time.


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#31 I./ZG15_Karl_Modeller

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 13:44

"Loose sight - loose fight":
When I am playing at expert mode I always loose sight because of the dead sector of the 109er's six. How do you keep your eyes on the enemy?
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#32 =R4T=Sshadow14

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 02:33

soo many great videos out there

youtube.com/watch?v=OCFMX5z-ed4

youtube.com/watch?v=Lu5vX86TdIU


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#33 Ace_Pilto

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 07:49

Case 1:

 

Negatives:

You engaged from a disadvantage, looking into the sun and where your enemy had the protection of cloud.

You clumsily chase his tail instead of setting up proper attacks with a stable aircraft

 

Positives:

You survived

You damaged the enemy aircraft

 

Not worth punching a baby over, you're doing ok. What you need to work on is recognising opportunities to make your aircraft into an accurate gunnery platform and then how to position that platform quickly instead of fighting a "follow the leader" or "Simon Says" type battle, remember: It's a fight to the death, not aerobatics.

 

My biggest advice for you: Stop just reacting to what your enemy does. You must mentally fly ahead of your aircraft and his in time and out-anticipate him. Take the initiative! Good piltos are always in the right place at the right time!

 

P.S. Experiment with using a little bit of flap. I find about 10-15% is useful in combat sometimes.


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#34 Monostripezebra

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 10:55

Let´s face it, your main error is, that you are not flying Pe2.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=zCgMPZnd5sc


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#35 71st_AH_Scojo

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 11:41

Let´s face it, your main error is, that you are not flying Pe2.

Best advice here. :lol:  :P


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Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman.                                           — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF

I mean, I had fast motor cars and fast motor bikes, and when I wasn't crashing airplanes, I was crashing motor bikes. It's all part of the game.      — Sir Harry Broadhurst, RAF, 12 victories WWII

Fighting in the air is not sport. It is scientific murder.                                                                                                                                                    — Captain Edward V. 'Eddie' Rickenbacker, USAS


#36 RainbowCorner3

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 15:13

Don't know how much this adds to the good stuff already put out in this thread.  Like 216th_LuseKofte I am probably too old for the dogfight, so fly ground attack.  Seems to be about developing a style that suits you.  Linked videos (in German, so may not be much help if you don't understand the language) show contrasts between two Bf-109 aces.  The Erich Hartmann video contains interviews in English, which the editor translates over into German, a bit frustrating.

 

Erich Hartmann - all time top scorer with 352, all on the Eastern Front, mostly Russian planes but did OK against P-51s and Spitfires late in the war in Romania.  Did not do dogfights, boom-and-zoom, out of the sun, ambush.  (He noted that the Russian pilots were mostly not well trained and many did not have sights.  They painted sights on their windscreens.  Fortunately we do not have to do that.)

 

Erich Hartmann "Bubi" Messerschmitt Bf 109 Ace 352 Luftsiege

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=9QmcvD6h42I

 

HANS-JOACHIM MARSEILLE - top scorer against Western planes only with 158.  OK, almost all P-40s and Hurricanes, which were at least a bit outclassed by his Messerschmitt.  He was one of the few top scorers that preferred to dog fight.  He was an outstanding deflection shooter, and made his Bf-109 into a turn fighter by using slower speeds and flaps.  (See that a lot in YouTube WarThunder videos, but first time I have heard about it used in real life.)  His specialty was breaking defensive Lufbery circles - dropping down in the middle and out-turning the P-40s/Hurricanes using flaps.

 

HANS-JOACHIM MARSEILLE IN AKTION MESSERSCHMITT BF 109 ACE 158 VICTORYS

 

https://www.youtube...._AEYqt&index=43


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