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Yak-1 and Yak-1B - Overheat.


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AnPetrovich

Do you think it's right or not?

 

You asked this on Russian forum, and you've got the answer: your test is not correct (conditions are not the same).
What do you want to know else?
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=EXPEND=Tripwire

 

You asked this on Russian forum, and you've got the answer: your test is not correct (conditions are not the same).
What do you want to know else?

 

 

Just so we on the English forums understand as well, what conditions were not the same therefore rendering the test incorrect?

Edited by Tripwire
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You asked this on Russian forum, and you've got the answer: your test is not correct (conditions are not the same).
What do you want to know else?

 

И что в нём не правильно? Вы перегрев видите? ВИДИТЕ! Где повреждение как на БФ-109? Его нет на Яке, уберите надпись перегрев с правой стороны тогда не пудрите людям голову неверными информационными сообщениями.

 

1) You duplicate this post from Russian forum. We already saw your arguments and we don't need their repeating.

 

2) Official language of communication in this section is English.

 

3) 2. This forum is provided by 1C-777 Ltd. as a courtesy and its usage is a privilege and 1C-777 Ltd. reserves the right to ban any member temporarily or permanently for any reason at any time. Any penalties listed below for violations of the rules are guidelines only and forum administration may take additional action if they feel it is warranted. Use of the forum is not connected to usage of the game and access to this forum is not guaranteed to users as a consequence of purchasing the game.

 

4) 7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

14 days ban on entry

Edited by BlackSix
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ITAF_Cymao

 

You asked this on Russian forum, and you've got the answer: your test is not correct (conditions are not the same).
What do you want to know else?

 

Good news

But can you tell us what is wrong in the test and what would be the right test?

And can you tell us how long can we fly with the engine overheated?

Maybe you've said in the Russian forum, but I dont speak Russian and I can only try to understand and write in English with the help of online translators.

thx

 

S!

Edited by ITAF_Cymao
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LLv34_Temuri

Maybe you've said in the Russian forum, but I dont speak Russian and I can only try to understand and write in English with the help of online translators.

I'd be interested as well. By using Google translator, I gathered that Yak flight manual has a time limit for overheated engine, but I'm not sure if the flight manual mentions some margin in the time. How is it?

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Stalingrad Autumn map

12:00

Clear weather

no wind

Altitude 4k

MP 1040 mmHg

RPM 2700

Water 35% and oil radiator 50% ''po potoku'' as best cruising setting (according to A.T.Stepanec book about VK-105PF yaks)

Initial temperatures

Water = 103°C

Oil = 102°C

 

Next,closing both radiators fully = start of countdown 0 sec

After 25 sec technochat warning about overheating

W = 115°C

O = 110°C

 

After 165 sec first weak oscilations of RPM and MP

W = 116°C

O = 125°C

 

After 30 sec strong oscilations of RPM and MP

W = 116°C

O = 125°C

 

After 13 sec totail seizure of the engine

Total time from closing radiator flaps till seizure of overheated engine = 233sec

 

:salute:

Edited by Brano
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=EXPEND=Tripwire

Thanks for taking the time to perform the test Brano. From watching the video though, my understanding was that this wasn't about just flat out melting the engine like in your test. It was riding the edge of being on overheat and seeing a different outcome for both planes.

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LLv34_Temuri

Thanks for taking the time to perform the test Brano. From watching the video though, my understanding was that this wasn't about just flat out melting the engine like in your test. It was riding the edge of being on overheat and seeing a different outcome for both planes.

This is how I understood the video as well.

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ITAF_Cymao

Someone called Winston Wolfe and he has solved the problems... :lol:
But I'm waiting for an answer from the developers in the English forum.
Does temperature icon warn engine overheating?

And why is there temperature icon for so long time?

Is it a bug? What's wrong in MK.MrX video? Did he edit video?

 

S!

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AnPetrovich

Hi guys,

Actually, the oil temperature even 120°C is not a big problem for most of planes, isn't it?

As for Yak, it limited by 110°C in the flight manual. You know, that all limitations contain a bit reserve, right? It means an airplane will not explode if the oil temperature will be +1°C over the limit.

 

We can see 116°C in this movie. It give us a little bit more friction in the crank gear and the power decreases about ~10hp. But the engine has a stable heat balance and the temperature does not increase more. This situation can last for a long time...

 

Anyway, we should inform player that oil temperature is over the limit (in conformity with the flight manual).

 

So, what is wrong here?

 

All these things were discussed on the Russian forum with MK.MrX.

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=EXPEND=Tripwire

Thankyou for spending the time to explain this further.

 

I guess the next question that follows though is why did the DB605 fail relatively quickly if it was also only held just over the overheat limit?

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F/JG300_Gruber

Thankyou for spending the time to explain this further.

 

I guess the next question that follows though is why did the DB605 fail relatively quickly if it was also only held just over the overheat limit?

 

Given that we are speaking about oil for the yak, and that the 109 gauge only works for water, that may be an explanation.

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Did some tests myself with the Yak-1b and can't find anything wrong with ít. When you close the radiator and leave the oil cooler fully open, you can fly around for some time until the water evaporates and you've no cooling fluid anymore and the temperatures goes sky high.

 

What happens in the video, is that the cooling liquid of the Bf 109 evaporated completely (temperature close to 120°C in that video), so even with fully open oil cooler, it couldn't cool the engine down. On the Yak-1B in that video, the cooling liquid is around 110-115° most of the time, so it doesn't evaporate.

Edited by Matt
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AnPetrovich

You are absolutely right, gentlemen. :)

 

Moreover, my mistake: in the flight manual of Yak-1 the oil temperature is limited by 115°C.

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3./JG15_Kampf
Stalingrad Autumn map 12:00 Clear weather no wind Altitude 4k MP 1040 mmHg RPM 2700 Water 35% and oil radiator 50% ''po potoku'' as best cruising setting (according to A.T.Stepanec book about VK-105PF yaks) Initial temperatures Water = 103°C Oil = 102°C   Next,closing both radiators fully = start of countdown 0 sec After 25 sec technochat warning about overheating W = 115°C O = 110°C   After 165 sec first weak oscilations of RPM and MP W = 116°C O = 125°C   After 30 sec strong oscilations of RPM and MP W = 116°C O = 125°C   After 13 sec totail seizure of the engine Total time from closing radiator flaps till seizure of overheated engine = 233sec

 Brano, I'd like to ask you some questions about your yak overheating test. You have a lot of knowledge and maybe you can help me (I do not know anything about yak)

In your test:
Next, closing both radiators fully = start of countdown 0 sec
After 25 sec technochat warning about overheating
W = 115 ° C
O = 110 ° C
After 165 sec first weak oscillations of RPM and MP
W = 116 ° C
O = 125 ° C
I noticed that after 140 seconds, the water temperature changed only 1 ° C (W = 115 ° C) (W = 116 ° C)
   The engine failed by heating the oil (O = 110 ° C) (O = 125 ° C) which has undergone a much greater variation than the water.
If you kept the water radiator closed, and opened the oil radiator to keep your temperature at 115 ° C would your engine stop?
Edited by JAGER_Kampf
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Hi there,

 

If you keep water radiator open and oil closed,the engine should last a bit longer as the water around engine block will cool down the oil a bit,but not sufficiently to substitute closed oil radiator. Problem with oil is that when heated above critical temperature,it becomes diluted and losses lubrication properties = increase of friction inside engine = increase of temperature. Its a complex thing to model in computer game.

 

If you leave oil radiator open and water closed,water will eventually evaporate. Then the oil might get to critical temp values and repeat the scenario from above.

 

As per DD120 devs plan to implement also predetonations due to overheated engine/wrong mixture,so all in all we can look forward for quite complex engine behaviour. It might eventually substitute artificial timers we have now. But thats just my speculation. There are far more clever people on this forum to explain the situation you ask for. I might be totally wrong,you know :)

Edited by Brano
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3./JG15_Kampf

 

 

Hi there, If you keep water radiator open and oil closed,the engine should last a bit longer as the water around engine block will cool down the oil a bit,but not sufficiently to substitute closed oil radiator. Problem with oil is that when heated above critical temperature,it becomes diluted and losses lubrication properties = increase of friction inside engine = increase of temperature. Its a complex thing to model in computer game. If you leave oil radiator open and water closed,water will eventually evaporate. Then the oil might get to critical temp values and repeat the scenario from above. As per DD120 devs plan to implement also predetonations due to overheated engine/wrong mixture,so all in all we can look forward for quite complex engine behaviour. It might eventually substitute artificial timers we have now. But thats just my speculation. There are far more clever people on this forum to explain the situation you ask for. I might be totally wrong,you know

 Thx Brano.

If you have time, could you give me a test? Keep the radiator fully closed and open the oil cooler so that it does not exceed 110 degrees (oil temperature) and mark the time the engine takes to stop?
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Stalingrad Autumn map

Weather calm,no wind

Start altitude 3500m

Oil radiator flap set to 50%,water to 35% ''po potoku''

RPM 2700

MP 1040

 

1. flying for 10 minutes to get to ''work'' temperature

O=101°C

W=102°C

2. Closed water radiator completly,oil fully open. Start of stopwatch.

3. After 20sec with overheating warning in technochat

O=101°C

W=116°C

4. After 95sec

O=105°C

W=116°C

5. after 180sec

O=106°C

W=116°C

6. after 220sec first oscilations of rpm/mp

O=110°C

W=116°C

7. after 235sec heavy oscilations of rpm/mp

temperature of oil skyrockets to max what dial can show = 125°C

Water stays at 116°C

8. after 252sec engine seized

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JG5_Schuck

From my perspective the issue is not whether one plane overheats quicker than another or not,

but people watching and relying on the techno-chat and using it to 'cheat' and ride the temperatures to gain an unrealistic advantage.

Try it without, turn off the techno-chat, watch the temp gauges on the dash and adjust oil and water temps accordingly.

Try, as you would in real life to keep temps below 100-105 degrees,

and the results are different i assure you..... 

 

Bloody techno-chat is the root of all evil !

 

I actually find these type of tests completely redundant and void.

What has actually caused the DB engine to fail, mechanical or thermal loading of the engine?

As the cylinder head temp seems to be kept in check by the effectiveness of the cooling system even with the radiators closed, i assume (we can't see) the engine has failed 

mechanically, ie main bearings etc due to the oil no longer being able to provide adequate lubrication.

This by the way is why the G2 has its nuts cut off because DB upped the engine capacity, increased the comp ratio and changed the main bearing type in the 605A and it didn't like the extra mechanical load.

Russian engines on the other hand were slightly more agricultural in their build and could absorb more pilot abuse.

But that said no engine can run for to long in an overheated state. Something WILL eventually fail. Although engines in a higher state of tune will probable fail sooner.

And by the way coolant in a pressurized system can't evaporate its in a sealed system, where would it go? It does in fact try to boil and so looses its ability to conduct heat away from the engine effectively, thus causing mechanical failure, pistons, rings, valves, plugs etc.

As stated there are so many different parameters to the running of the internal combustion engine, there are whole far more complicated computer programs devoted to just this.

I have no idea how many are modeled in this game (not many i suspect) so the game is somewhat limited in this respect.

Although i would be very interested to know what are.

Edited by JG5_Schuck
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3./JG15_Kampf

 

 

Stalingrad Autumn map Weather calm,no wind Start altitude 3500m Oil radiator flap set to 50%,water to 35% ''po potoku'' RPM 2700 MP 1040   1. flying for 10 minutes to get to ''work'' temperature O=101°C W=102°C 2. Closed water radiator completly,oil fully open. Start of stopwatch. 3. After 20sec with overheating warning in technochat O=101°C W=116°C 4. After 95sec O=105°C W=116°C 5. after 180sec O=106°C W=116°C 6. after 220sec first oscilations of rpm/mp O=110°C W=116°C 7. after 235sec heavy oscilations of rpm/mp temperature of oil skyrockets to max what dial can show = 125°C Water stays at 116°C 8. after 252sec engine seized
 

Thanks Brano for dedicating your time.

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Bloody techno-chat is the root of all evil !
 

Agreed. It simplifies engine management for planes with manual-only control and thus make the advantages that planes with automatic systems had less of an advantage than they should be. And it makes it completely unncessary to check the temperature gauges, which is a huge advantage, especially in a dogfight. I'm really not sure why those messages are not a realism setting, i think they definately should be.

 

 

 

And by the way coolant in a pressurized system can't evaporate its in a sealed system, where would it go?

Through the pressure-relief valve.

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I did the test,because Kampf had asked for it. And I didnt go to pub yesterday evening. I will go this evening :)

I guess, for him, it wasnt redundant. All the rest is not important for me. I know that devs,and as confirmed by Andrey and Roman,put lot of effort into research of this stuff and try to model things as best as they can within the limits of computer game engine and datas available.

I do not fly with technochat. I turn it on only when doing such "tests" as it helps to get immediate overview of what the game is doing. For example engine overheat warning gives me an idea what the game understands with "overheated".

Gaming the game was always here and will stay with us as long as the games will not represent startrek holodeck level of virtual reality ;)

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JG5_Schuck

Hey guys.

I think what you mean by evaporation is actually expansion. So yes i would assume there will be an expansion tank to hold the expanding fluid which passes by a pressure relief valve.

When i said redundant, i didn't mean the test was pointless (sorry!), i just meant without knowing the conditions that turn the technochat "overheat" message on, is it oil temp, coolant temp, time related, a mixture of both, is it even the same parameters for both aircraft,

its a bit like comparing apples to oranges. But i agree it does highlight quite a marked difference between the two aircraft, but why? 

So what AnPetrovich seems to be saying is while an overheat situation has been met to bring the warning on, we don't actually know whats caused it, or whether it is likely to cause any damage if left for any period of time. Kind of pointless having it really!!

 

 

 

 

Agreed. It simplifies engine management for planes with manual-only control and thus make the advantages that planes with automatic systems had less of an advantage than they should be. And it makes it completely unncessary to check the temperature gauges, which is a huge advantage, especially in a dogfight. I'm really not sure why those messages are not a realism setting, i think they definately should be.

   100% Matt. 

 

A holodeck flight sim..... :biggrin:

Edited by JG5_Schuck
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So yes i would assume there will be an expansion tank to hold the expanding fluid which passes by a pressure relief valve.
 

There's no expansion tank on the Bf 109 (not sure about the Yak-1 or the other planes though). As soon as it passes through the relief valve, the fluid is gone.

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JG5_Schuck

Matt, i found this,

It appears they use a sealed pressurized system with twin header tanks with vapor traps, i assume with expanding bellows to allow for expansion.

Quite an interesting system, although i could not find any further information.

But with the correct antifreeze mix the coolant should be able to run at 105-110 degrees almost indefinitely.

Although fuel quality issues and cylinder head temps may lead to detonation problems, unless the air charge cools the cylinders sufficiently.

I know they ran MW50 to help combat these problems at higher ATA settings.

All very interesting.....

I wonder what parameters are actually monitored in this game?

post-13065-0-72045300-1480278215_thumb.jpg

Edited by JG5_Schuck
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