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150GCT_Veltro

Why LW lose all the missions on WoL

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Again....

1xPe-2 in the video. What we see there it's excatly what's happening online every evening. Yes, we are all noobs. Ask yourself insetad of give lessons about how to engage this uber plane, why LW pilots are playing is this bad way actually. We have given it up. It's an unstoppable aircarft, so the only way to shoot down it, is to put the maximum quantity of our "nerfed" 20mm inside it, before it could reach the target. Usually this is not enough as we can see in the stats. Really frustating. What we really are doing wrong now is to exceed in the faiplay. We need to collide with it, ramming it....but probably is not enough.

 

A tactical approach (from 45%) with this kinde of DM would be just unuseless cause it would require a sniping ability form the pilot, and we can't put in the field 4xBf-109 for each Pe-2 in flight, without considering we are talking about a single Pe-2 without escort. I would like to know what kinde of tactical approach do you guys would suggest in this situation: 6xPe-2 in close formation with 4xYak-1 as escort. 30xBF-109? No, we give it up.

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1) 200 shots scored without ever hitting the crew is one thing to the twilight zone, as is becoming this "sim"

2) I saw the action and they collided with Pe, you there werent infact I didnt see you.

    German pilots are a very good pilots with excellent stats, better than mine or your stats.

    We don talk about strategy, maybe the strategy was wrong but 200 shots scored on Pe remain.

3) All gunners after 200 hit should die or be injured, maybe 1 gunner was killed in the last attack or, but I m not sure, has tried to hit me while Pe fall down.

 

Can you provide the link to the stats for this sortie ?

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To me it seems the "problem" is not the "durability" of the Pe-2 but the fact that any target seems to be ridiculously easy to destroy. In that case fast attackers will always trump the slower types which can have a higher bombload. When I look at the various vids on YT I always see one, at best two or three Peshkas attacking a target (and AAA just doing a bit of "special effects"). Realism? Where? *looks around in confusion*

 

Now, imagine a major supply depot needing a bombload of ... say ... twenty or thirty thousand kilos and an airfield needs to be showered with bombs until you have a solid layer of splinters across it to close and maybe a repair algorithm going on in the background. Would the Pe-2 still be that successful in such an environment (where the greater bombloads of german aircraft could be a factor and where teamwork is even more important)? :cool:

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@ OP: Its everything as its supposed to be by the gamedevs. Over all - NOTHING will change.

And Veltro. Maybe giving up is the only thing that might actually tell them theyre doing somewithng wrong when noone plays it anymore and they have to start shooting AIs all day.

And guess what. The precious community will even tell you to do just that - quit - and move along if youre not fine with what youve got.

Edited by Irgendjemand

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This is mission report

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123262/?tour=15

 

You have right about one gunner was killed, but after 200 hit and after 2 collision everyone should be dead.

 

A very few Pe2 bullets can destroy many fighters, but many bullets usually not enough to shot down Pe2 or kill his crew.

The same doesnt happen with the Ju88 or with h111 where a very few russian bullets kill rear gunner and pilot from 6 o'clock.

This is my experience.

Edited by ITAF_Cymao

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I don't see 200 hits. And I don't see a collision.

 

And we both know if you set the attack right, a Pe2 is easy to kill.

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I flow PE 2 and IL 2 exclusive since the start, I can assure you that any fighter attacking my plane and know what to do do shoot me down, I got yelled sniper gunner while I sat in the turret.

I think the gunner in both airplane has a good weapon and good view, if you let me easily turn the plane to get better angle of shooting my gunner will hit you. 

I got a feeling that every time a axis pilot cannot get a plane down, he wants 1 of 2 things to happen 

  1. Make the developer increase performance  to own plane
  2. Decrease performance to opposite plane

No German fighter pilot of experience would go in fro six or in any way expose himself to rear gunners in a direct attack. The IL 2 did tolerate a lot of punishment if cables to control surfaces , radiators was not hit. Still once German pilots knew what to aim at they succeeded .

Problem with axis not winning is the lack of interest protecting own bombers, rendering bomber pilots to fly low and get shot down by flak or just move to another server. It is frustrating to see the constant complaint about this  from Axis fighter pilots when the blame is directly on them and no one else

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I don't see 200 hits. And I don't see a collision.

 

And we both know if you set the attack right, a Pe2 is easy to kill.

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123314/?tour=15

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123313/?tour=15

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123158/?tour=15

 

One Bf has shotted 102 bullets, second Bf has shotted 72 bullets and they hit only this Pe2, I have shotted 45 bullets but I have hit 2 Pe

102+72+23 (45/2) = 197 bullets

 

If you had been there you would have seen the collision that is also seen in the video.

 

We know that you want to be condescending with the developers of the game, there's no problem if you settle for a game and not a simulation.

We aspire to have a better product for all players, not only for some.

Edited by ITAF_Cymao

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 30xBF-109?

 

30 would only count as one.

 

Because one 109 attacks a russian, then all the other 109s try to steal the kill.

 

 

THAT is why the LW loses all the time. I keep saying it on the server, including to your squadmates.

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http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123314/?tour=15

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123313/?tour=15

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123158/?tour=15

 

One Bf has shotted 102 bullets, second Bf has shotted 72 bullets and they hit only this Pe2, I have shotted 45 bullets but I have hit 2 Pe

102+72+23 (45/2) = 197 bullets

 

If you had been there you would have seen the collision that is also seen in the video.

 

We know that you want to be condescending with the developers of the game, there's no problem if you settle for a game and not a simulation.

We aspire to have a better product for all players, not only for some.

 

Website note :

 

* This block may contain incorrect information, this is due to the errors in the game log.

 

 

Only count what's in the sortie's log.

 

As to the collision, I don't see any. He almost rammed the Pe2 but pulled up and stall. No visible hit, no visible damage, no damaged recorded by the server, propeller still rotating properly...

 

That's just the fact.

 

I'm not being condescendant, I just speak THE FACTS.

 

 

Which is not something everybody does. (Stalinuim, kriptonite, etc BS all around).

 

 

Fact is : IF YOU SHOOT PROPERLY THE PE2 ISN'T MUCH OF A CHALLENGE. PERIOD.

 

Fly like a pig, get roasted like a pig. What can I say. People need to grow up and stop blamming the planes.

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http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123314/?tour=15

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123313/?tour=15

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123158/?tour=15

 

One Bf has shotted 102 bullets, second Bf has shotted 72 bullets and they hit only this Pe2, I have shotted 45 bullets but I have hit 2 Pe

102+72+23 (45/2) = 197 bullets

 

If you had been there you would have seen the collision that is also seen in the video.

 

We know that you want to be condescending with the developers of the game, there's no problem if you settle for a game and not a simulation.

We aspire to have a better product for all players, not only for some.

:salute:

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No German fighter pilot of experience would go in fro six or in any way expose himself to rear gunners in a direct attack.
 

 

 

Every type of VVS modern fighter plane uses their turn signal and park right behind my HE-111 they then put on their hazard lights to make sure my top rear gun(often me heading back to base) sees them

and they shoot my 111 until it turns into a smoking wreck.Sometimes I get the VVS plane to smoke it is there for so long but not always.

 

And you're right no one parks behind my PE-2 or IL-2(going back to base me in the gunner position) in a 109 if they want to live I will make them go down.

 

When I fly a 109 I don't park behind a IL-2 or a PE-2 I know it will get me I fly and use gunner positions in every plane I have .

 

When you fly every plane you have online to test them and for fun you see differences.

 

But,you have to try all the planes and see for yourself.

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Weird... It's almost like there is a reason that they came out with gunpods for the 109.... I just can't imagine what that reason would be...

 

It would be cool to see Yer-2s and Il-4s in the mix too though, would at least spread the caterwauling around some.

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Pe-2 summary:

When a man without a pistol meets a man with a gun, the man without a gun is a dead man walking

Edited by 72sq_Melo

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Weird... It's almost like there is a reason that they came out with gunpods for the 109.... I just can't imagine what that reason would be...

 

It would be cool to see Yer-2s and Il-4s in the mix too though, would at least spread the caterwauling around some.

LOL

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http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123314/?tour=15

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123313/?tour=15

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/1123158/?tour=15

 

One Bf has shotted 102 bullets, second Bf has shotted 72 bullets and they hit only this Pe2, I have shotted 45 bullets but I have hit 2 Pe

102+72+23 (45/2) = 197 bullets

 

If you had been there you would have seen the collision that is also seen in the video.

 

We know that you want to be condescending with the developers of the game, there's no problem if you settle for a game and not a simulation.

We aspire to have a better product for all players, not only for some.

 

 

 

MG FF 20mm rate of fire:  700 rounds per minute. In 1s u shoot ~12 rounds

MG 17b7,92mm: 1200 rpm. In 1s u shoot ~ 20 rounds. But u have two MGs so 40 rounds.

 

In every second u shoot 20% cannons, 80% mgs.

So if u scored 24 hits out of 1200 shots. Then most propably 4-5 was cannon hits.

So out of 200 scored hits - 40 were most propably cannon hits.

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B17 was heavily armed but this is not enough to avoid large losses, the Pe2 with one cal50 is capable of frying any plane, American, why not use Pe2? B17 shit (sarcastic mode on)

 

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/795766/?tour=12

 

 

 

It's well known that the FW had oil cooling tubes in front of the engine that made it vulnerable to fire coming from the front. Later versions had armor there just for that reason.

 

In the video you arrive in a straight flat line in his 6, and take a bullet to the engine.

 

In all honesty what do you expect ?

MG FF 20mm rate of fire:  700 rounds per minute. In 1s u shoot ~12 rounds

MG 17b7,92mm: 1200 rpm. In 1s u shoot ~ 20 rounds. But u have two MGs so 40 rounds.

 

In every second u shoot 20% cannons, 80% mgs.

So if u scored 24 hits out of 1200 shots. Then most propably 4-5 was cannon hits.

So out of 200 scored hits - 40 were most propably cannon hits.

 

200 shot is if you take the portion of the website which is described by the website as being inaccurate.

 

The count that matters is the server-side recorded hits. And there are not 200 recorded hits. Far from it. 

Edited by Turban

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Hello all,

 

At the very great risk of adding nothing to this thread  :P , what I find a little frustrating is not so much that VVS fly after many hits causing leaks, black smoke, bits falling off, etc, it's that they fly so well when damaged. I was on the Berloga sever over the weekend (got shot down waaaay more that the opposite  :P ), at one point I was flying a 109 and got behind a Yak and hit it with 4 20mm rounds and a bunch of mg rounds. I apparently missed the engine and fuel tanks because there was no leaking but you would think the Yak's performance would be affected, but no, it fought on as if nothing happened, just as well as an intact aircraft. 

 

At other times I've hit a Russian kite causing massive leaking, black smoke, huge holes in the wings and severed control surfaces yet they can still pull bat turns and are as fast as ever. To be fair, I've also downed VVS aircraft with very few hits causing wing loss, fire, or pilot kill but as a rule, those Russian crates continue to fly very well when seriously damaged. Obviously during the war severely damaged aircraft made it back to base but I doubt most of them fought nearly as well as before the damage occurred.

 

Funny too that when I'm flying, a few hits on my bird, online or off, VVS or LW, will cause serious damage to vital components, with engine failure within a very short time.

 

I am not accusing the devs of bias by the way, and I'm still enjoying the sim  :cool: .

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky

Edited by =CFC=Conky
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To me it seems the "problem" is not the "durability" of the Pe-2 but the fact that any target seems to be ridiculously easy to destroy. In that case fast attackers will always trump the slower types which can have a higher bombload. When I look at the various vids on YT I always see one, at best two or three Peshkas attacking a target (and AAA just doing a bit of "special effects"). Realism? Where? *looks around in confusion*

 

Now, imagine a major supply depot needing a bombload of ... say ... twenty or thirty thousand kilos and an airfield needs to be showered with bombs until you have a solid layer of splinters across it to close and maybe a repair algorithm going on in the background. Would the Pe-2 still be that successful in such an environment (where the greater bombloads of german aircraft could be a factor and where teamwork is even more important)? :cool:

 

I agree about the targets. The strategic attacks are totally missed now.

 

I was making test with FMB about some bigger industrial aerea, that would probably help in this aspect of the game providing more immersion with bombing missions at high altitude. I don't know if we have the script/trigger for "damaged area in %".

post-1022-0-85777400-1477331960_thumb.jpg

post-1022-0-37381500-1477331966_thumb.jpg

post-1022-0-96184000-1477331972_thumb.jpg

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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In the video you arrive in a straight flat line in his 6, and take a bullet to the engine. In all honesty what do you expect ?
 

 

You ask this seriously? I think pretty much everybody understood that he expected Pe-2 to go down after so many hits. If he himself took a bullet to the engine or not has nothing to do with it. If German studies showed that it took in average twenty 20 mm hits from the rear to bring down a B-17 or B-24, most would expect it to be enough for a light bomber, too.

In general, I can understand that there are different views and opinions in discussions and many times there is not one "absolute truth", but I really don't understand why some people just like to close their eyes and live in total denial.

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After seeing these videos i tryed to down the PE 2 my selve with the ME 110 useing only the 20 mm guns recording it and counting only the number of explosions in the record as sure hits.

I used QMB to do it and set the PE 2 as frendly flight.

I got 24 hits on the right wing, 7 hits on the fuselage and 4 on the left wing before the right wing of the PE 2 snaped.

 

The twenty hits the germans established as needed to down a B-17 4 engine bomber did not have to be on one wing they were enough to be anywere on the plane to down it. With some very rare cases were one was hit so lucky that it could fly on whitout breacking into peaces or falling from the sky because the wings could no longer create enough lift to hold the plane in the air.

 

As it is now eighter the ammunition is far to weak or the PE 2 is far to strong.

 

Also engine that are damaged and smoke black run eighter to long or the damaged engines of the other planes run to short

see video I./ZG1_Panzerbar:

Edited by Gunsmith86
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Thanks for making the effort to test all this Gunsmith

The long video with the test in my post is from I./ZG1_Panzerbar it was the reason i made my test later.

The early PE 2 in I./ZG1_Panzerbar video is possible even a little to weak but these has to be tested first with every plane and than there should be made improvements to planes that have to little stability and nerfes to planes that are to strong.

Edited by Gunsmith86

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Guys ignore Turban. He is just here to troll and make himself feel good.

As for why Axis loses? Dunno but I can tell you I don't give a rat's arse who wins or loses a mission on WOL. I only go into that server to practice air to air and have fun shooting other people down.

Bet you I'm not alone.

 

Personal attacks.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

Verbal warning only.

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I agree about the targets. The strategic attacks are totally missed now.

 

I was making test with FMB about some bigger industrial aerea, that would probably help in this aspect of the game providing more immersion with bombing missions at high altitude. I don't know if we have the script/trigger for "damaged area in %".

 

This demo mission changes the icon on the map to display % damage to a factory complex consisting of eight buildings:

 

JimTM-DisplayDamageToFactory.zip

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I flow PE 2 and IL 2 exclusive since the start, I can assure you that any fighter attacking my plane and know what to do do shoot me down, I got yelled sniper gunner while I sat in the turret.

I think the gunner in both airplane has a good weapon and good view, if you let me easily turn the plane to get better angle of shooting my gunner will hit you. 

I got a feeling that every time a axis pilot cannot get a plane down, he wants 1 of 2 things to happen 

  1. Make the developer increase performance  to own plane
  2. Decrease performance to opposite plane

No German fighter pilot of experience would go in fro six or in any way expose himself to rear gunners in a direct attack. The IL 2 did tolerate a lot of punishment if cables to control surfaces , radiators was not hit. Still once German pilots knew what to aim at they succeeded .

Problem with axis not winning is the lack of interest protecting own bombers, rendering bomber pilots to fly low and get shot down by flak or just move to another server. It is frustrating to see the constant complaint about this  from Axis fighter pilots when the blame is directly on them and no one else

BTW. 12 mm cemented soviet armor on IL2 means: mg151 armor piercing cant beat this armor at 100m and 10 degrees angle already. It is really a tank plane hehe :D 

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Every type of VVS modern fighter plane uses their turn signal and park right behind my HE-111 they then put on their hazard lights to make sure my top rear gun(often me heading back to base) sees them

 

Yes I agree the punch from those MG 15 is not much, but that is not the IL 2 and PE 2 fault. I flew a lot of missions in HE 111 and Stuka in early days, but everybody wanted to fly Axis so I switched to PE2 and never regretted it. Mostly for the sake of real flight feeling. You feel the heaviness and environment.

I get your point, my point is the fact that no one helps the HE 111 pilots .

There is no reason for Red win all the time, Axis got much more ground pounders than Red and bigger bombs. In 72 AG /Ded server you see axis win all the time, maybe more than red 

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Guys ignore Turban. He is just here to troll and make himself feel good.

 

As for why Axis loses? Dunno but I can tell you I don't give a rat's arse who wins or loses a mission on WOL. I only go into that server to practice air to air and have fun shooting other people down.

 

Bet you I'm not alone.

 

 

LOL. To the first one  :lol: 

 

And no you're not alone. Most germans are like you. 

 

Then they come on the forum and complain "why we always looz ?" "It's because stalinium wood" 

 

 

And I'm the troll. LMAO.

 

 

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After seeing these videos i tryed to down the PE 2 my selve with the ME 110 useing only the 20 mm guns recording it and counting only the number of explosions in the record as sure hits.
I used QMB to do it and set the PE 2 as frendly flight.
I got 24 hits on the right wing, 7 hits on the fuselage and 4 on the left wing before the right wing of the PE 2 snaped.

Would be interesting to try that again with an La-5 or LaGG-3 to see if it is a matter of the ape-2 being strong or the German cannons being weak. I mean if you Rekt it quickly with the ShVAK that might tell us something?

Edit: LOL, my phone autocorrected Pe-2 to "ape-2" but I'm not going to change it!

Ok tryed it with La 5 mixed belt He+Ap

 

Result:

I got 23 hits on the left wing, 8 hits on the fuselage ( part of the tail lost but plane did still fly )  and 6 on the right wing before the left wing of the PE 2 snaped.

This time the right engine stoped after 4 hits but plane was still flying at that time with around 25 hits .

 

Thats way to much hits for this medium bomber its no Wellington or B-25 and even they whould go down with so much hits.

Edited by Gunsmith86

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According to the pe-2 wiki, the plane was considered very dangerous to fighters, and outdid its survivability estimate of 30 missions. The ratio of wounded gunners/navigators vs pilots was around 2-3:1. One example on the wiki reads 6 peshkas fending off 4 German fighters, shooting down 2...

 

It is also written that the peshka was one of the most successful aircrafts of the war.

 

It seems correctly modeled to me.

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I flew red for the last 2 years, sometime in Pe2 (40 - 60 combat mission) ...

anytime I was engaged by a 109 ... I was shot down ... if someone have a link to hire the magic gunner I take it. 

On the other side, I switched for axis recently, and yes Pe2 gunner are quite deadly.... If not mst deadly of all bomber gunner in game actually 

Saw one killing two of my teammate in 5 seconds ... the tow of them were in his six , flat with no more than 100km/h advantage .... They diserved it :) every single bullet ... they diserved it. 

Pe2 are "easy" to take down head on, no armore canopy, pilot right in the middle of it ... or from flanks ... but not in the 6 ... just not in the 6 

Is it realistic ? I do not know, I have never been shot down in the air by a Pe2 :P ... Is the problem coming from Pe2 ? 

don't think so .... on EU random + , blue are actually winning ... thay have bomber groups... On WOL, I rarely saw any organised blue bomber group ... just hartmanning at 6k :) This is were the problem is. 

Look at the stats on EU random expert , Blue side destroyed much more targets. Problem on WOL is player seeking instant dogfight action , not "objective driven mission" ... Blue side loose because looking at your stats in a mirror saying yourself you shot down plenty of ennemies is more rewarding than saying you just destroyed 40 AI or static buildings with bombs. 

Pe2 gunners might be very powerful, too much I do not know, I never experienced a Pe2 return fire ... but problem for WOL is elswhere

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After seeing these videos i tryed to down the PE 2 my selve with the ME 110 useing only the 20 mm guns recording it and counting only the number of explosions in the record as sure hits.

I used QMB to do it and set the PE 2 as frendly flight.

I got 24 hits on the right wing, 7 hits on the fuselage and 4 on the left wing before the right wing of the PE 2 snaped.

Ok tryed it with La 5 mixed belt He+Ap

 

Result:

I got 23 hits on the left wing, 8 hits on the fuselage ( part of the tail lost but plane did still fly )  and 6 on the right wing before the left wing of the PE 2 snaped.

This time the right engine stoped after 4 hits but plane was still flying at that time with around 25 hits .

 

Thats way to much hits for this medium bomber its no Wellington or B-25 and even they whould go down with so much hits.

 

 

How do you explain than sometimes a few shot cuts the wing off then ?

 

 

Maybe...just maybe... the exact spot where the 20 mm hits matters more than the absolute number of 20 mm that are shot at it ??

 

More a sim than a XML type of thing you know...

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How do you explain than sometimes a few shot cuts the wing off then ?

 

 

Maybe...just maybe... the exact spot where the 20 mm hits matters more than the absolute number of 20 mm that are shot at it ??

 

More a sim than a XML type of thing you know...

It´s possible and its something that is ok but shouldn´t a maximum on damage done to a plane also bring the plane down? no matter were you hit the plane? because in real thats something that happens and whit so many hits we should have past that point already.

 

What one also should not forget is why does the engine often run that well after so many hits on the wing are there no fuel lines runing to the engine, no conection to the trottle or other important things that run trough the wing which we just shot to peaces? Is it realistic or could it be improved?

And this goes for all planes not just PE 2s all should be checked and be changed if not realistic in some limits of the game engine

Edited by Gunsmith86

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It´s possible and its something that is ok but shouldn´t a maximum on damage done to a plane also bring the plane down? no matter were you hit the plane? because in real thats something that happens and whit so many hits we should have past that point already.

 

Well, when it comes to holes in the wing and body, it is amazing how much it takes to bring an aircraft down. There are tons of pictures around of planes looking like Swiss cheese, who has managed to get down safely. I think having a traditional "health bar" on the plane would ruin a lot. Then it is no longer simulation, but just a game mechanic.

 

In my eyes the general damage modelling seems quite good. You can cut the rods going to the control surfaces, you can hit the wing attachment to blow the wings off, and you can damage fuel tanks, rads and engine etc.

 

Not sure whether you can cut off fuel to the engine though. When my wing gets hit, the engine often goes out after a short while, and I can't say whether that is only due to direct hits on the engine or not. But I have never had an engine jam at full throttle or anything like that, so I doubt the throttle control can be damaged in the wing. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this though!

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