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216th_Cat

MiG-3 tailwheel and takeoff in 2.004

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No difference.

 

I can take off now, but it needs alot of rudder workand also more use of the ailerons inorder not to groundloop.

Landing the Mig-3 for me means crashing.

 

Something is not right in my opinion.

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Guys, check out my video. It's much easier to take the MiG off if you trim the nose up. 

 

Also, the new ground physics means some planes are a nightmare if you don't have peddles. So I suggest investing in some VKB's if you're putting that much time into this game.

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Take offs are usually makeable. But the landings are mostly a matter of luck. Particularly under crosswind conditions. 

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I'm doing very well on her now, even 12ms sidewind TOs and landings are doable with the right technique (slow 2 point touchdown). Maybe its a controller issue here, also make sure that joystick filter is not too high as that will delay the responses of your controller. (got mine at 0.05)

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I have practised alot...

 

Now I can at least take off in a secure way, but landings are a mess.

 

I have tried 3 point, 2 point landings. Full and half flaps, Full and half full fueltanks etc etc...

But each time I land it bumps down the runway, regardless how slow I touch down - and  short after it groundloops.

 

Are the devs aware that this issue still persist ?

The Mig-3 is the only aircraft that I cannot land without crashing.

 

FinnJ

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I have practised alot...

 

Now I can at least take off in a secure way, but landings are a mess.

 

I have tried 3 point, 2 point landings. Full and half flaps, Full and half full fueltanks etc etc...

But each time I land it bumps down the runway, regardless how slow I touch down - and  short after it groundloops.

 

Are the devs aware that this issue still persist ?

The Mig-3 is the only aircraft that I cannot land without crashing.

 

FinnJ

 

Its a bug for me tailwheel on/off.

I hope it will be solved as it was in DD.

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Are the devs aware that this issue still persist ?

 

Yes, see DD138 at: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?p=405724.

 

Personally, I don't find takeoffs difficult in the MiG-3. To me it seems the most important prerequisites for a good takeoff are:

  • Mixture in the middle setting (not full forward)
  • Stick in neutral (neither pulling back nor pushing forward)
  • Elevator trim only very slightly forward (to avoid prop strike)
  • Rudder - needs a lot of rudder when the takeoff roll starts, but only very little rudder input as it rolls faster

With these settings I don't experience much swiveling.

 

I agree that landing can be difficult because the MiG is very sensitive to higher touchdown speeds as well as high power settings. The recommendations given in DD137 seem to work though; key is to fly a steep approach with a very low power setting, with the goal of touching down exactly at stall speed. Not as forgiving as some other planes.

 

Edit: According to the aircraft specs given at: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25993-aircraft-flight-and-technical-specifications-and-operational/?p=406720, landing speed in the MiG is between 135 and 145 kph (depending on weight, I guess). This means that with 50% fuel you want to touch down at about 140 kph. If you fly your final approach at about 200 kph (steep and at low power setting), and then gradually reduce your throttle to idle while carefully flaring (i.e. flare enough to keep it airborne, but avoid ballooning), you should end up at 140 kph and the plane will settle down smoothly.

Edited by andyw248

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Wow andyw248....

 

That helped alot !

 

Landing at appr. 140 km, throttle at idle, made landing much easier.

Even a developing ground loop at the end run was easily countered with some rudd and brake input.

 

Thanks for the hint :salute:

 

Now I can both take off and land safely.

 

 

Best regards

FinnJ

Edited by fjacobsen

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Now the MiG-3 can be run down the runway without care to take off. That goes against the accounts I've read where a slight lapse leads to it going its own way. I hope actual historical data lead to the change and not "I can't do it, so it must be broken!" caused the current properties. I don't subscribe to the "harder = realism" but in this case, I don't even have to bother with the MiG-3 on takeoff and it gets in the air while before it took paying attention to which is exactly how it was said to be.

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Now the MiG-3 can be run down the runway without ....

The problem is thailweel that does not work properly especially when You set the wind in the sim (try it, not 0 only).

You can capmare it for example MiG-3 and Yak-1 in take off. The mechanism is different but the RESULT must be the same.

If MiG-3 behave in Real life on the ground like in the sim now (after 2.004) it never be produced.

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The problem is thailweel that does not work properly especially when You set the wind in the sim (try it, not 0 only).

You can capmare it for example MiG-3 and Yak-1 in take off.

 

I did in the previous version, I had no problems taking off and landing with crosswind - or even taxiing. Why should it behave the same as the Yak-1 on a takeoff roll out? They are two totally different aircraft down to the engine. It just required only left rudder before for takeoff, if you kicked right rudder it would swing around because it has that huge engine up front... now I can step on both pedals all day long and it rolls along.

 

I will repeat this: Takeoff was the hardest thing: if you lost concentration the MiG-3 would spin around. (post 117)

 

Now - now I can do it asleep.

Edited by FuriousMeow

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I agree with FM here.

I too have no problems to take of or land the Mig3.

Crosswind or not.

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Crosswind, especially when it comes partly from behind can be quite tricky. On landing make sure to turn and line up your plane parallel to the runway rigth before touchdown and also add aileron in the direction of the wind.

I put up a successful takeoff and landing with 12m/s crosswind here:

 

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I did in the previous version, I had no problems taking off and landing with crosswind - or even taxiing. Why should it behave the same as the Yak-1 on a takeoff roll out? They are two totally different aircraft down to the engine. It just required only left rudder before for takeoff, if you kicked right rudder it would swing around because it has that huge engine up front... now I can step on both pedals all day long and it rolls along.

 

I will repeat this: Takeoff was the hardest thing: if you lost concentration the MiG-3 would spin around. (post 117)

 

Now - now I can do it asleep.

I didn't told about behavior as You see, the behavior of proceedings in other planes is different, of course,. I wrote about the RESULT of using tailwheel.

The rudder isn't efficiency till the near 80km/h and for this must be used only tailwheel + small corrections of rudder (but no unblock).

The biggest problem with this and torque effect for example F4U Corsair has with very big propeller and engine but here is 300% problem/more difficult than Corsair.

 

Here example of real (restored) MiG-3, I dont see that his rudder is fully left like in the game.

https://youtu.be/tHwfb9LtZX4?t=11s

https://youtu.be/_wTZjYGyl-4?t=4m10s

https://youtu.be/fq84KS-1wJI?t=50s

If behavior of MiG-3 after 2.004 would be in RL - this plane would be prohibited.

Edited by YoYo
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Crosswind, especially when it comes partly from behind can be quite tricky. On landing make sure to turn and line up your plane parallel to the runway rigth before touchdown and also add aileron in the direction of the wind.

I put up a successful takeoff and landing with 12m/s crosswind here:

 

 

Excellent flying, Jordan! I wouldn't personally fly such a power-on, flat approach (I prefer steep low-power approaches), but you do have my respect for superbly handling this aircraft!

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I didn't told about behavior as You see, the behavior of proceedings in other planes is different, of course,. I wrote about the RESULT of using tailwheel.

The rudder isn't efficiency till the near 80km/h and for this must be used only tailwheel + small corrections of rudder (but no unblock).

The biggest problem with this and torque effect for example F4U Corsair has with very big propeller and engine but here is 300% problem/more difficult than Corsair.

 

Here example of real (restored) MiG-3, I dont see that his rudder is fully left like in the game.

https://youtu.be/tHwfb9LtZX4?t=11s

https://youtu.be/_wTZjYGyl-4?t=4m10s

https://youtu.be/fq84KS-1wJI?t=50s

If behavior of MiG-3 after 2.004 would be in RL - this plane would be prohibited.

 

Consider 2 things:

1st: the restored plane has a different engine.

2nd: a lot of pilots got killed on landing in the Mig-3.

 

Also if you closely watch the first and third video of yours you can well see a lot of rudder used.

I'm not saying the ground handling is right or perfect but given what is told about this plane it behaves somewhat close to the stories.

 

 

Thanks Andy :salute:

Edited by 216th_Jordan
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I thought that andyw248's procedure worked, since I had 4 succeses in a row landing the Mig-3, but afterwards it's stil hit and miss for me.

 

I agree that there must be something wrong.  It not just a bad excuse because I can´t handle landing the Mig-3 I think.

I have no problem landing any of the other aircraft, Lagg-3 and LA-5 included, so while the Mig-3 might be more difficult, it shouldn't be THAT more difficult.

As soon as the Mig-3 start turning left, it cannot be recovered in anyway. Regardless if I use slight rudder/tailwheel input, or ailerons either left or right, the ground loop simply keeps developing.

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I can't land the MiG after the last update either.   It's not the approach, nor flap deployment nor speeds - it's the flare I have problems with.  

 

I've found landing in close formation with the a.i. is a good practice excersise.  Airstart a Quick mission with a wingman, order him to RTB and follow him in.

The a.i.'s approach procedure is.....interesting :blink:  but I've found having my eyes on the a.i. as you cross the threshold and flare is building a technique for me.

 

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Maybe try not to flare. I have tested two points touchdown in mig recently. If I manage to coordinate speed and tail wheel touchdown (speed must be as low as possible) the plane behaves itself (well, sometimes) and I can keep straight direction with pedals (sometimes :-)

Edited by 310_cibule

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The strategy that worked for me was trimming out the rudder - something more than 40%.  That made takeoffs easy.

 

I also like to have the canopy open, with my head sticking out, or up.  That way I can see as soon as the nose starts to wander.

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Being one of the one;s having problems taking off with the Mig..and having read on the forums that something changed on the takeoff FM;s,,,,,some say a placebo....not sure....but about 2-3 wks ago I did not loop anymore...well after 5-6 beers I did... :P ..but to point....I now can get into the air....Granted I have been practicing but It seemed to happen overnight....would like to know if anyone else who was having problems taking off with the Mig would share and let me know if something changed or I am getting better..... ;)

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half mixture for take off?

should it not be based on Altitude regardless of taking off/landing/flying.

I mean using only half mixture at sea level would be running lean.
Then half mixture in the mountains (if maps had it) would be running rich.

Is there no charts to show mixtures to keep 14.7:1 AFR (stoich) at all altitude for each plane?

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half mixture for take off?

 

should it not be based on Altitude regardless of taking off/landing/flying.

 

I mean using only half mixture at sea level would be running lean.

Then half mixture in the mountains (if maps had it) would be running rich.

 

Is there no charts to show mixtures to keep 14.7:1 AFR (stoich) at all altitude for each plane?

The Mixture in the MiG is linked to the Map Regulator. At 50% Mixture it runs at Auto Lean, at 100% it runs Auto Rich and Higher Boost Pressures. Mixture is Semi-Automatic.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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On takeoff I can control nose swing by adjusting throttle. I usually am around 80% throttle until last few seconds. No flaps.

Landing is usually ok until half way through rollout then the mules kick the tail around. Plane looks ok after banging her wings on the ground. But take off for another circuit and usually one of the elevators pop off. Making the next landing usually a crash. Landings at 170kmh, trim for min stick action, full flap, 50% mix.

Edited by Tailwheelbrownbear

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So I took off in this aircraft for the first time yesterday. A combination of stuff said on this thread and help from my two wingmen got me off the ground ok my first try.

 

I slowly throttled up, applied as much left rudder as I could without the tail wheel unlocking and kept the stick pulled back until I had enough speed to swing the tail up and give more left rudder, however I still veered off the runway to the right.

 

Would using flaps help you get the tail off the runway faster so you could use more left rudder to stay lined up correctly?

 

Also a squad mate performed a nice landing with the mig. He did a wheel landing instead of a three point. I'm going to try to land this thing this evening and see how I do.

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Its almost impossible to 3-point this thing correctly as you will be very close to stall AoA. 2-point is the way to go. Also I think 20% (or was it degrees?) flaps help on take-off. Let the tail come up by easing the pressure from stick-back position. Also lessen the rudder input the faster you go.

Edited by 216th_Jordan

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Yep I find this impossible to take off.  

 

There must be something wrong with my set up, because I just can't keep it anywhere near a straight line with the rudder pedals like in the videos other people have posted.

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It reminds me of when I originally got a trackir and for no apparent reason I had a massive deadzone in the centre of my screen added by the game that wasn't fixed until I reinstalled.  

 

Likewise on this its clear the game (or my controllers) aren't functioning properly because I can't even keep the MIG3 in a straight line on the runway playing in third person at 1/4 speed.  

 

Looks like I am going to reinstall again.

 

(FWIW I am using thrustmaster pedals)

Edited by gnomechompsky

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Yep I find this impossible to take off.  

 

There must be something wrong with my set up, because I just can't keep it anywhere near a straight line with the rudder pedals like in the videos other people have posted.

Are you trying to take off on a runway or airfield? I'd recommend starting on an airfield first, if you can and work your way toward being able to take off on a runway

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It's too hard to stay in a straight line on an airfield as well. This thread makes it sound more complicated than it is really - the issue is keeping the plane going in a straight line whether you are on an airfield or a runway.

 

We can talk about adjusting RPM, trim, mixture etc all day - the fact is you control the direction of the plane on the ground with the rudder pedals - left or right.  It can only go two ways! 

 

So am I supposed to believe that either everyone else is that good or I am that bad that I can't even come close to replicating a take off in a video, or is there another issue here?

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It's too hard to stay in a straight line on an airfield as well.

Right but I've been using an airfield for practice instead of a runway because I can get it off the ground and slowly reign it in without having to worry about smacking the tower lol

 

The thing that's helped me most has just been repeating it and getting used to it.

 

Maybe today I'll try some different settings and see if anything helps out.

Edited by 71st_AH_Scojo

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Well to give my own recommendation I think adjusting trim, etc doesn't really make any difference if you are having to fight the plane going left and right.

 

The best advice I can give is that before you put on any throttle, you have to have the rudder already set at about 80% left (using pedals not trim) and keep it there as you put the throttle straight to 100%.

 

The worst thing you can do is wait til you start moving before you use rudder causing you to immediately go off to the right (which will still happen with 100% trim left) and then try and adjust using pedals, which will quickly spiral out of control.

 

Although I can now take off I still don't think this is anywhere near realistic having taken about 80 attempts before I can do it.  This is on concrete runway BTW no idea about dirt.  

Edited by gnomechompsky

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Don't know if it helps, just made a quick shot of one takeoff. I used no trim and only light stick back during roll. Corrections need to be small and fast but careful. No braking involved.

Also check what windsetting you have chosen.

 

Edited by 216th_Jordan

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As someone who was on this thread early and now having been able to get somewhat good at taking of in the Mig.....landing is another story...... :( ...my advice is 

practice and more practice.  

 

I had the looping bad.  But I kept at it...I took it as a personal challenge .. I used PWCG and created a Mig campaign...And flew and flew...I took 

the help that was offered but still struggled...I would watch the AI to see what it was doing that I wasn't.  Finally I took different parts of all of

this and found a technique that works for me...part from the help on the thread and part from watching the AI.  What I now do is start off just like

they say 50% to 60% mix, 100 RPM,  I usually go no flaps...depends on weather and loadout.... I go netrual on the trim...left rudder...quickly to 100% throttle. Making sure

to keep the stick all the way back to keep the tail down as long as possible..Once I get to around 130k I let the tail up...get straight as possible and go to boot...100% mix.  I am sure this not how others do

it..but it works for me. ...and finding what works for you is the key....The Mig is not easy for newer sim pilots like me to learn, but with practice and finding that ah ha moment is a great feeling. 

Trust me it takes some time but If I can get this done you can too..  S!

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I finally gave up last night after numerous ground loops. Nice to fly in the air if you start off from there, otherwise, forget it.

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Don't know if it helps, just made a quick shot of one takeoff. I used no trim and only light stick back during roll. Corrections need to be small and fast but careful. No braking involved.

Also check what windsetting you have chosen.

 

 

Nice video, looks like quite a bit of left rudder used. Question (assuming you are using peddles) how do you have your peddles mapped in so far as values for yaw?

mine currently are:

 

Sensitivity: 80%

Dead Zone: Center: 24%

Dead Zone: Edges: 0%

 

Thanks!

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I find that deadzone is deadly (no pun intended :biggrin:) It might be a bit tiring at first to have those reactions to small movements in the center, but the corrections can be made much more fluent. Give it some tries without deadzone.

I think I got sensitivity 70%, deadzone 0%, edges X%  (maybe 20% - don't know right now, but I use a custom spring so I can't move my pedals to full deflection without problems).

 

You will need almost full left rudder, gently decrease input when you need to go a bit more the the right and gently increase when you want to get a bit more to the left. The movement is twitchy, so you need to give the correction time to settle itself. don't react too quickly or induce oscillation by fast corrections. At first it is ok if you don't go absolutely into the right direction, just pick a point far away (clouds are best - don't look at the runway) and try to stay relatively parallel to it.

Edited by 216th_Jordan

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I find that deadzone is deadly (no pun intended :biggrin:) It might be a bit tiring at first to have those reactions to small movements in the center, but the corrections can be made much more fluent. Give it some tries without deadzone.

I think I got sensitivity 70%, deadzone 0%, edges X%  (maybe 20% - don't know right now, but I use a custom spring so I can't move my pedals to full deflection without problems).

 

You will need almost full left rudder, gently decrease input when you need to go a bit more the the right and gently increase when you want to get a bit more to the left. The movement is twitchy, so you need to give the correction time to settle itself. don't react too quickly or induce oscillation by fast corrections. At first it is ok if you don't go absolutely into the right direction, just pick a point far away (clouds are best - don't look at the runway) and try to stay relatively parallel to it.

 

This is probably the best advice on the thread, although I still can't take of on a rough runway.

 

I am also failing now at landing, even if I get all three wheels down the plane still the plane still veers of to the left when it goes below a certain speed, irrespective of the rudder and brake.

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Thanks to all who contributed.  I thought I had the Guiness record for ground loops on takeoff, but there may be competition. . .  Anybody that can handle this bird without rudder peddles deserves a medal.  

The settings I got to finally work (based mostly on this thread input):

Yaw trim:  -30

Pitch trim:  +4

In Settings - Yaw Axis "sensitivity" to max (100%)

 

Full left rudder (right peddle), easing as necessary to stay more-or-less on the runway.

Hold the brakes for full throttle.

 

Now if I can just land without bending the prop.  The commissar is about ready to send me to the gulag where they make them. . .

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