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MC. 202 and P-40E are premium planes, so don't have to fit BoM specifically. However, both fit the overall timeline of BoS+BoM. BoS and BoM are not seperate sims, so I don't see why a BoM premium plane can't fit the BoS timeline.

 

However, it does pain me to see P-40s etc. flying over Moscow when flying the BoM campaign. Hopefully the new career won't shoehorn them in like that

 

This discussion wouldn't have happened if a "C" replaced an "E" and a "0" replaced a "2" :P

Edited by SuperEtendard

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Manu* as you well know the two 'collector' planes released with BoM, P 40 and Mc 202 were result of popularity poll and not directly related to what was in service at BoM,

 

However the Mc 202 went into service in june 41

 

P 40E was delivered to VVS from 1941 and in combat from May 42 with 126 IAP  Moscow air defence, and than onto Stalingrad in August

 

but as said above the point is moot 

 

Lagg 3 K37 was first delivered in 1941  used in combat in early 42 at Bryansk front by 42 IAP, and used successfully by 291 IAP at stalingrad from september 42

 

As 5tuka said, Ju 87 was used operationally in combat with 37mm as ground attack aircraft at time of Stalingrad on Eastern front

 

this is all so irrelevant and unrelated compared to FW 190 D9 and Me 109K4 at Normandy to be a redundant conversation,

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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As 5tuka said, Ju 87 was used operationally in combat with 37mm as ground attack aircraft at time of Stalingrad on Eastern front

No, it was tested on single models to prove the effectveness of the Bk37 kit (tests were conducted with different sorts of ammunition). That's far from being officially adopted and operationally used in combat.

 

It is as relevant to the Stalingrad scenario as the Bf109 G6 is to Kuban. Anyway, this is offtopic enought I think.

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20 units  :lol:  if they even were still 20 by the time they reached Stalingrad. Now that's representative. 

 

Pretty sure there were at least 20 109s in July'44 beefed up with all sorts of boosts and upgrades to match the performance of the K4. 

 

 

Seriously, i don't care about those minor inaccuracies, neither in BoX nor in DCS. But excepting it, and heaping praise on one Sim, but critisize it in the next, seems like a clear agenda to me.

The Normandy map could as well be somewhere at the Belgian coast, at least in my fantasy. I am just happy we get a WW2 map.

What concerns me more in DCS is the slightly lopsided balance in terms of aircraft. Like already explained before i would have preferred G10 and A8, would have been the perfect opponents for the Pony and Mark9. But when the Spit 14 enters the fray, i guess that will be solved as well. 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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20 units  :lol:  if they even were still 20 by the time they reached Stalingrad. Now that's representative. 

 

Pretty sure there were at least 20 109s in July'44 beefed up with all sorts of boosts and upgrades to match the performance of the K4. 

 

 

Seriously, i don't care about those minor inaccuracies, neither in BoX nor in DCS. But excepting it, and heaping praise on one Sim, but critisize it in the next, seems like a clear agenda to me.

The Normandy map could as well be somewhere at the Belgian coast, at least in my fantasy. I am just happy we get a WW2 map.

What concerns me more in DCS is the slightly lopsided balance in terms of aircraft. Like already explained before i would have preferred G10 and A8, would have been the perfect opponents for the Pony and Mark9. But when the Spit 14 enters the fray, i guess that will be solved as well. 

 

Except that mentioning that DCS has a fairly factually strange outlook of non historic matchup of aircraft and a non fitting map is a pretty legitimate discussion in a DCS thread

 

You were the one to bring BoS into it with criticism that was to the most point entirely wrong and barely related to the DCS points...who's agenda?

 

comparing a weapon load out which was used historically and with noted success which can be locked by servers anyway, to the DCS situation is just bizarre

 

just admit you chased yourself down your own rabbit hole there

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Dakpilot, i see P40E and Mc202 in the Moscow campaign. I see them in Moscow only multiplayer servers. 

I see the 190 in the Stalingrad campaign, and in Stalingrad multiplayer servers.

 

There is no difference to the DCS situation.

My criticism wasn't wrong. You are seeing things.

 

If in 10 years there is a Königsberg map, and a G10 and A8, they will also tell people about "collector planes" that don't belong to specific maps. And then you have your realistic plane setup. Just as it happened in BoX, only quite a lot faster.

 

Your delusions seem to drift off reality more and more.

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Spit 14

Not a matter of when but a matter of if, VEAO so far still struggles to release P-40F and from customer perspective they hold little credibility. And they set a large release plan for themselves, larger than even ED has. If they actually manage to produce Spit XIV, I would estimate its arrival no earlier than 2019. 109 K-4 became available at the end of 2014, so waiting that many years for a capable competitor appears hilarious. It would be so much easier if ED acknowledged problem instead of denying it (any mention of balancing anything is immediately disregarded by Sithspawn and some "hardcore" DCS fans) and adjust boost ratings for P-51 D. 

 

At this point I'm just happy they release anything for DCS ww2 (Spit and in some future Normandy) because it seems to be a minor thing for them. I mean just this one ww2 module took years to produce and as much as I'm going to enjoy it, there is that bit of bitter aftertaste that its possibly going to be another underdog. 

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Dakpilot, i see P40E and Mc202 in the Moscow campaign. I see them in Moscow only multiplayer servers. 

I see the 190 in the Stalingrad campaign, and in Stalingrad multiplayer servers.

 

There is no difference to the DCS situation.

My criticism wasn't wrong. You are seeing things.

 

If in 10 years there is a Königsberg map, and a G10 and A8, they will also tell people about "collector planes" that don't belong to specific maps. And then you have your realistic plane setup. Just as it happened in BoX, only quite a lot faster.

 

Your delusions seem to drift off reality more and more.

 

As usual first with the personal insults...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

  • Upvote 1

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As usual first with the personal insults...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Well i wasn't the one starting to disrespect the counterpart in the discussion with derogatory nonsense (which wasn't even true) like 

 

you chased yourself down your own rabbit hole there
.

As usual. Not possible to have an adult discussion without trying to drag your "opponent" down. Dakpilot as we know him for years

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What are you talking about m8?

I'm talking about VEAO Spitfire Mk XIV that may never come.

 

 

 

The Spit is going to be more than a match for 109 K-4.

With the performance data that I saw I have doubts. 18 lbs boost Spitfire IXc is still going to climb slower, not that much but still, than K-4. And when it comes to speed ? It's going to be outclassed. This graph was posted on ED forums few times by users, based on real data so doesnt 100% apply to ingame situation but I'm sure you get the picture:

Qo0se47.png

 

Not to mention other factors like aircraft stability, firepower, visibility and roll rate.

 

 

 

Also there are plans to release a new Mustang after the Spitfire that fits the european theater better, as the current is a late war pacific model, D-30 I believe.

And I bet it would cost me another 50 $ ...

First, I'd like to see that happening and second, we had various plans in past. The way they are finalized and tempo of the work is not appealing however.

 

 

 

So who knows, maybe the new Mustang will get higher boost ratings?

Yeah, right. Maybe. 3 years ago there was claim it will be changed, later the changed opinion and said no balancing is needed and actual performance gains for P-51 running higher boost ratings wont even be that important. Now there is another version of what may happen.

 

 

 

It will have a climb rate almost identical to that of 109 K-4.

See above.

 

 

 

It will also dominate in any kind of aggressive maneuvering dogfight. It will be an underdog in terms of speed, yes, but considering it has a clear advanatge in maneuverability, it's a good matchup. Now 109 flyers will have to do BnZ attacks and avoid turnfights.

If that would be a Zero and Hellcat than I could agree. But at given point most of the 109s I kill are the ones foolish enough to burn the energy and turn with me. Most that kill me are those that fly in group and attack with height advantage, even if I dodge there is always second, third and possibly fourth guy that will attack me. Dont suspect any drastic change of gameplay.  

 

Dont get me wrong, I will try to get best out of Spitfire. But choices made by ED are somewhat dubious. 

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 5026_28_DBSonder_MW_steig.jpg 

 

 

Spitfire LF Mk.Ix climb rate https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=163126

 

 

So, 23,5 m/s for Spitfire and 22,5 m/s for K4. Very slight advantage for Spitfire. Visibility should be about the same. Firepower about the same. Roll rate about the same, slight advantage for 109.

 

Now, 109 is faster by about 50 - 70 km/h. It'll need that advantage because it can't climb away or dogfight itself out of the situation against Spit. It's good that it has that one advantage otherwise it can get pretty boring gameplay wise ( see what's happening with the current P-51 vs 109 setup.) I'm still enjoying flying the mustang online, just got the game couple days ago. :biggrin:  

 

Yeah, but we are comparing the planes one to one here. Obviously if you get bounced by 4 I-16s you can get yourself killed in a Spitfire lolz. Gameplay will be pretty drastically changed as now allies have a plane that can defend itself ie has some advantages over 109.

 

I agree that for the Normandy map Fw 190 A-8 and maybe 109 G-14 would've been the better choice, Spitfire Ix and Mustang fit the timeframe nicely though. But it's not that big of a deal really. 

DCS devs claim the Me109K4 is capable of 26m/s due to not taken into account (by the original data) exhaust thrust, which according to DCS is giving additional 4 m/s to the ROC. And this is how the airplane performs currently.

 

Spit LF IXc 23,5 m/s

vs

Bf109K4 26 m/s

Edited by =LD=Solty

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DCS devs claim the Me109K4 is capable of 26m/s due to not taken into account (by the original data) exhaust thrust, which according to DCS is giving additional 4 m/s to the ROC. And this is how the airplane performs currently.

 

Spit LF IXc 23,5 m/s

vs

Bf109K4 26 m/s

Exhaust thrust alone gives it another 4 m/s, that sounds insane!

 

And how can that be missing from original data, when that data was collected (I presume) by actually performance testing the aircraft in real life?

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I'm not sure when was the last time you actually flew DCS but if K-4 was having a climb rate of 22.5 m/s I'd be having a different talk, it wouldnt be even more impressive than 190 D-9. However it is closer to 26 m/s. 

Very slight advantage for Spitfire.

Noticeable Spitfire disadvantage.  

 

Visibility should be about the same.

I dont see exactly how it would change from Spitfire V since those were similar airframes, but K-4 enlarged canopy and bulletproof glass make it much easier to look behind. Also, all German guys fly with a mod changing the plexiglass profile, and making it crystal clean.

 

Firepower about the same.

LoL, I wanted to write something longer but there is just no point. Four .303 caliber Brownings are so far from center of the airframe that they will be only doing something at convergence, and I doubt they will be effective in any close way to .50 caliber / 13 mm heavy machine guns. Then you have two Hispanos vs one nose mounted MK 108. K-4 is fully capable of one-shooting target with 30 mm M-geschoss, I doubt same can be said about 20 mm Hispano SAPI rounds.

Although all this is true for current damage models, will see how it looks in future when they finally introduce proper damage models.  

 

Roll rate about the same, slight advantage for 109.

I want to see that ...

 

I'm still enjoying flying the mustang online, just got the game couple days ago.

Well, that explains everything.

 

Spitfire Ix and Mustang fit the timeframe nicely though.

Spitfire IX is adjusted to 1943 performance, has standard sights instead of gyro-gunsight which some argued was in use by Normandy. 

 

But it's not that big of a deal really. 

It can be. 

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi

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Exhaust thrust alone gives it another 4 m/s, that sounds insane!

It was quite surprising, but apparently thats what it is, based on Yoyo calculations and adjustments.

 

 

 

And how can that be missing from original data, when that data was collected (I presume) by actually performance testing the aircraft in real life?

Yoyo, somewhere explained it on forums. But I wont find (or look for) it now, there are just too many threads to verify. But same is with 190, again, apparently German documents did not take into account exhaust thrust.  

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1943 performance? It has +18lbs boost which was used throughout 1944.

So was 25 lbs which was proven beyond doubt on dcs boards - tested in 1943, officially recognized and accepted in March 1944.

 

 

 

And why would a gunsight without that gyro thingie be a big deal? No one even uses that feature in the mustang it's shiz.

It's about that kind of details that you know what exactly is being reproduced in digital environment. Also, I know plenty of people who use it. That some are unable or incapable of taking advantage of it does not mean its ... as you call it, "shiz".  It's actually quite effective and been helpful to me more than once.  

 

 

 

The bottom line is that it's more about the pilot than the plane.

There is no bottom line, I can handle myself in a Mustang as I do in FW-190. Not that I am a great pilot, never claimed to be, but as it happens argument about pilot skills is usually raised by those who benefit the most from specific airplanes.

Or by newcomers.

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That chart is a calculated estimate.

Ok, so DCS FM is based on performance charts made from actual test data, unlike this chart?

 

Using a 'calculated estimate' sounds like a bad starting point for modeling an aircraft in a sim. :unsure:

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It's based on a mix of documentation, but judging by amount of detail Yoyo usually adds, I'd say its covered better than most of the competition did or does with their products. 

 

As for second one, its not bad at all. Frankly, thats how large part of data was obtained back then when testing facilities and extensive testing was not such a common thing. Trying to replicate measured in flight performance can also be misleading if few details are known. 

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It's based on a mix of documentation, but judging by amount of detail Yoyo usually adds, I'd say its covered better than most of the competition did or does with their products.

 

As for second one, its not bad at all. Frankly, thats how large part of data was obtained back then when testing facilities and extensive testing was not such a common thing. Trying to replicate measured in flight performance can also be misleading if few details are known.

I understand that, but you'd think that testing climb rate IRL would be fairly straightforward. All it really requires is a properly calibrated altimeter, air speed indicator and a stopwatch.

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That's where you are wrong. My buddy Ikarus, who was making flight models for other products has explained that on other boards which I can link to you:
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/207672-planes-climb-speed-and-times/&do=findComment&comment=4007895

 

I mean yes, you can do a plain stopwatch test but its accuracy will not be great.  

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Also, all German guys fly with a mod changing the plexiglass profile, and making it crystal clean.

Remind me to download this mod before I hop into my K-4 again.

 

People might have used a mod when the K-4 was released - but did you see the canopy back then?

It was a mess compared to other planes and no sane pilot would have gone up with such a dirty canopy.

 

I doubt however that every "German Guy" is still using a mod as the canopy was cleaned by EDs groundcrew ;).

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Am i the only on who sees 25m/s on the 109 chart, and not 22?

I saw other sources as well, nothing to do with DCS, stating 24,8m/s. 

 

Edit: Nevermind. I confused it with this one, which clearly shows 25m/s.

5026-19_DCSonder_MW_steig.jpg

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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I doubt however that every "German Guy" is still using a mod as the canopy was cleaned by EDs groundcrew .

Can I get some of that service for my P-51 ? It sure would love some cleaning :)

Pony likes to get dirty, but its hard to expect much from those lazy ground crews we got on our side  :(

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You need to tread your mechanics well. ;)

My Kurfürsts canopy glass is crystal clear without any mods.

Didn't knew about such a mod at all.

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Am i the only on who sees 25m/s on the 109 chart, and not 22?

I saw other sources as well, nothing to do with DCS, stating 24,8m/s.

 

Edit: Nevermind. I confused it with this one, which clearly shows 25m/s.

5026-19_DCSonder_MW_steig.jpg

That's a C3 fueled 1.98ata K4 and it is 24m/s.

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That's a C3 fueled 1.98ata K4 and it is 24m/s.

 

No, the chart says 605 DB/ASB. DB couldn't run 1.98, only DC.

This one has just another propeller. I don't know which propeller we have in game, do you?

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Can I get some of that service for my P-51 ? It sure would love some cleaning :)

Pony likes to get dirty, but its hard to expect much from those lazy ground crews we got on our side  :(

 

I fly the Pony myself from time to time but I couldn´t complain about the canopy - it looks pretty clean to me.

But I´ll try to convince my ground crew to check your ride :D

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I don't know which propeller we have in game, do you?

I dont, but its more than probable that Yoyo mentioned that as well. Only problem is that whole 109 K-4 section is spammed terribly and finding what one is looking for poses an issue.

Regardless of propeller, its not a matter of what K-4 is but what P-51 isnt. 

 

 

 

But I´ll try to convince my ground crew to check your ride :D

Nice, that would be great. I'll bring my guys and show 'em how its supposed to be done.  

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No, the chart says 605 DB/ASB. DB couldn't run 1.98, only DC.

This one has just another propeller. I don't know which propeller we have in game, do you?

This must be the chart with prototype prop. Prop model of the DCS is noted in their product description on their main page. Edited by =LD=Solty

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No, the chart says 605 DB/ASB. DB couldn't run 1.98, only DC.

This one has just another propeller. I don't know which propeller we have in game, do you?

 

Yes, this chart shows thinner bladed VDM 9-12199 wich was optimized for top speed (around 12km/h faster than standard prop at altitude) but climb rate was lower.

 

In DCS we have standard VDM 9-12195 prop.

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 Only problem is that whole 109 K-4 section is spammed terribly and finding what one is looking for poses an issue.

Regardless of propeller, its not a matter of what K-4 is but what P-51 isnt. 

 

 

 

 

What? So what topics are these so called spams in your opinion?

 

P-51 will have higher boost in future.

VEAO XIV looks pretty good in screens already...

 

Even all delayed things, some weird choices and seemingly slow progress i'm enjoying DCS more than ever. With Oculus rift/ffb stick/gametrix seat it's easily the closest thing to reality in the sim market, no doubt about it.

And it will only get better with the updates. Can't wait for Normandy map...

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What? So what topics are these so called spams in your opinion?

 

P-51 will have higher boost in future.

VEAO XIV looks pretty good in screens already...

 

Even all delayed things, some weird choices and seemingly slow progress i'm enjoying DCS more than ever. With Oculus rift/ffb stick/gametrix seat it's easily the closest thing to reality in the sim market, no doubt about it.

And it will only get better with the updates. Can't wait for Normandy map...

If my memory is right the P51 update will bring an earlier model that have less boost. I might be wrong however

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If my memory is right the P51 update will bring an earlier model that have less boost. I might be wrong however

 

Yes, older model but with higher boost. Boost settings are not confirmed yet tought. But i certainly hope they upboost it just to cut the whining...

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Yes, older model but with higher boost. Boost settings are not confirmed yet tought. But i certainly hope they upboost it just to cut the whining...

I think it was the model available during D-Day with less boost. I check it out when I am back home ;)

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This must be the chart with prototype prop

 

It is not a prototyp, it was just another prop. DB605C with higher boost was also not a prototyp, but used in front line action, so it could be even worse in DCS (or good for the Germans). And as DB605 noted, this prop wasn't even optimized for climbing, but even worse then the "normal" one. So it's probably - just putting two and two together, not a fact - a chart that includes exhaust thrust. This would explain why it has 25m/s, little less then the K4 in DCS that has 26m/s. 

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What? So what topics are these so called spams in your opinion?

There are ~20 pages in K-4 section + there is a Bug sub-section. D-9 being much longer available still sits on 5 pages. There are multiple threads asking for help, throwing some pictures or other stuff that could well be discussed in already existing threads. Filtering that section is a mess and it would require one serious moderator to take care of it, unfortunately Sithspawn is not a person to do that.

 

P-51 will have higher boost in future.

Unless there is official development statement/announcement nothing is carved in stone and I will believe when I see it. Sorry, I saw "Kickstarter", I saw "We should have P-40 by the mid of 2015" or "We hope to deliver Spitfire IX by mid 2016". 

 

VEAO XIV looks pretty good in screens already...

Nice. Screens. 3d model. Well, they have 3d model of Hawk that for so many years cant receive proper sim flight model. Or we have P-40 that cant leave comfort development zone for years either. VEAO can claim as much as they want, but so far they have delivered little.  

 

I think it was the model available during D-Day with less boost. I check it out when I am back home

Dont forget to check number of D-9s and K-4s during D-Day ! 

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi
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Unless there is official development statement/announcement nothing is carved in stone and I will believe when I see it. Sorry, I saw "Kickstarter", I saw "We should have P-40 by the mid of 2015" or "We hope to deliver Spitfire IX by mid 2016". 

 

Nice. Screens. 3d model. Well, they have 3d model of Hawk that for so many years cant receive proper sim flight model. Or we have P-40 that cant leave comfort development zone for years either. VEAO can claim as much as they want, but so far they have delivered little.  

 

 

Yeah, i saw kicstarter too and i'm glad i did participate it. Now we have best 109, D9, P-51 and soon Spitfire IX available in sim market. Then Normandy map with WW2 vehicles, tanks etc. Future looks brighter than ever.

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Dont forget to check number of D-9s and K-4s during D-Day !

None existent I'm afraid ;)

Edited by ATAG_dB

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