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Great trailer.  I nearly bought one after watching that.  The second video which followed it was a bit more down to earth though and reminded me of the sort of gameplay that was available.

Indeed. I think they somewhat underestimated the importance of a contemporary environment, otherwise they would've pushed ahead the map a long time ago. I expect huge growth numbers in WW2 moduls once Normandy is out. 

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Well,  I think you can fly it on multi. Of course its quake war there, but its not all that different from some DED servers or WoL where most focus on dogfighting as well.

In practice I dont think DCS will ever be immersive unless 3rd party developers will do something useful finally and instead developing everything on their own, concentrate on some specific area and work on that. For instance I dont think ED will in any following years produce twin engine fighters or attackers, not to mention flyable bombers. Only ones that stepped up are Polychop guys who work on Ju 87. 

 

Spitfire itself is nice, hard to fly, but nice. Though I must admit - problem of this aircraft is not that it cant fight enemies, its that pilot has to fight more his own machine then the enemy. Cant fly too slow or my engine will blow up in minutes (P-40 E comes here in mind), cant fly too fast or my pilot will be in permanent blacout and all that in fairly unstable airframe. 

And cockpit is in my opinion way overdone. Too much reflections, scratches and dirt on it:

RfU97Z.jpg

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TBH I think they somewhat rushed it at the end hopefull when it's full released it will be good. 

 

still no mossie though  :biggrin:

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In practice I dont think DCS will ever be immersive unless 3rd party developers will do something useful finally and instead developing everything on their own, concentrate on some specific area and work on that. For instance I dont think ED will in any following years produce twin engine fighters or attackers, not to mention flyable bombers. Only ones that stepped up are Polychop guys who work on Ju 87.
 

Well, what i learned they include plenty of models already into the Normandy map? Comparable to the Non-flyables of the Caucasus Map, like the Tankers,Tu, Mig25 etc.

Only drawback is that you won't be able to fly those bombers or ground attackers, but i think in terms of mission variants there will be more then enough...CAS, CAP, bomber escort, bomber intercept, all what a virtual fighter pilot can dream of. Being really only interested in online campaigns (like SeoW from old 46, or Red Flag kind of stuff), i'd actually prefer that only fighters are human controlled, and bombers are AI over the possibility of humans to fly bombers, but only seeing a handful on the map. SeoWs were great with huge streams of AI bombers, escorted by human controlled fighters. For me that's the most immersive scenario (most realistic as well).

Since you can do quite a lot with the DCS mission builder, and put a huge amount of AIs in the air (probably still a lot more then DX11 BoX), my hopes are that DCS with Normandy map will be the first Sim to be able to reenact the SeoWs of old. If there are only 2 types of fighter per side for now, i am fine with that.

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I've bought the Spit and I can say that it is extremely well done. Once you get it how to take off and land it's just a dream.

 

I've just crossed the Kaukasus in a test flight in VR and what can I say? It was 10 times more fun than any non-VR flight sim activity I've (probably) ever done. Just so immersive with a constant thirll because you don't quite yet understand the model and hope all goes well. I swetted when I landet in Sukhumi!

 

And it helps that DCS has such high-res textures (one thing I can't stand in BoS) and that the planes are so complex in their behaviour. It really ads to the immersion.

 

I'm really looking forward to fly the Ju88, He111 and Me110 in BoS - I hope they can match the VR quality of DCS. Now after the Normandy trailer I guess the competition is on!

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Great trailer.  I nearly bought one after watching that.  The second video which followed it was a bit more down to earth though and reminded me of the sort of gameplay that was available.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlssb59DBOg

 

That looks a bit more like the DCS I flew around in for a while with the P-51.

 

Still that trailer is drool material.

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............. Now after the Normandy trailer I guess the competition is on!

 

Competition? Not in my view. If you like 'm, fly 'm both. There's no real competition there, just a very spoiled userbase. :)

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Training! More training! Endless training!

 

I own most planes in DCS, except the jet trainers, Hawk, LA 39 and the Spanish one. I preordered the Spit so I own it.

Dogfight is not my thing, I probably would fly the P 47 if it ever come once the Normandie map comes. Bu I have a secret dream about having the B 26 and DO 217 K in DCS, this will make me fly DCS WW2 full time

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DCS Spitfire is a pretty good module for early access.  Bugs to be worked out, but it's process.  For every Sim or module.  Flys like a dream.  I've always thought that the props in DCS fly better than other sims and never understood why simmers say you have to fight your machine as much as the bad guy.  But....six of one, half dozen of the other.  Yes, in DCS you have to generally be more cautious about your engine management and flight profile.  It's probably a little less tolerant than other sims, but some could argue that either way.  I imagine it's more realistic, but I wasn't a fighter pilot in WWII.  Like above, the only DCS Modules I don't own are the trainer jets, and I've not yet been disappointed.  Would love to see some multi-engines but I can't image the work that would have to go into that.  I mean, at the level of detail DCS presents.  Who knows though?  They've done some cool stuff, and as long as the 3rd parties can see dollar signs, they'll be interested in putting them into their pockets.  I like IL2, but I will always pre-order or invest at ED.  Believe me, IL2 gets my money too, just more so post release.

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I own most planes in DCS, except the jet trainers, Hawk, LA 39 and the Spanish one. I preordered the Spit so I own it.

Dogfight is not my thing, I probably would fly the P 47 if it ever come once the Normandie map comes. Bu I have a secret dream about having the B 26 and DO 217 K in DCS, this will make me fly DCS WW2 full time

 

Well, I own (and less or more studied) the Warthog and the Mustang. And the Balalaika. What I think that really works within the DCS "philosophy" as I see it, are simulated training missions and I especially mean those made by MapleFlag. You know, the "study sim" concept. Without them I wouldn't have appreciated the Warthog the way I did. I'm kinda waiting for the release of the same campaign for the MiG-21 but it who knows when that will be... I really hope that the release of Normandy will give purpose to their WW2 aircraft. What bugs me a little is that I have yet to find my "favourite" among their modules, like something that I really feel like getting into. There seems to be a lot on the horizon, but how far is it?

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Well, I own (and less or more studied) the Warthog and the Mustang. And the Balalaika. What I think that really works within the DCS "philosophy" as I see it, are simulated training missions and I especially mean those made by MapleFlag. You know, the "study sim" concept. Without them I wouldn't have appreciated the Warthog the way I did. I'm kinda waiting for the release of the same campaign for the MiG-21 but it who knows when that will be... I really hope that the release of Normandy will give purpose to their WW2 aircraft. What bugs me a little is that I have yet to find my "favourite" among their modules, like something that I really feel like getting into. There seems to be a lot on the horizon, but how far is it?

 

Get the F86 with the Museum Relic campaign. There I found "my plane" - it's just fantastic and forces you to really learn your plane. I'd like to have something similar for WW2 since for those aircrafts DCS is still more like a trainer to me. But with a proper map and a proper campaign I can see myself putting even more hours into that sim.

 

Competition? Not in my view. If you like 'm, fly 'm both. There's no real competition there, just a very spoiled userbase. :)

I theory yes - but never underestimate the developers pride! If they see how all the new DCS WW2 stuff looks they will push themselves, believe me. Also less "excuses" for this or that is not possible. Overall a win for consumer. But as you said, we can switch between both and support them both, but internally I think they ant to prove themselves :)

Edited by JG4_Sputnik

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Honestly, after flying more on multi with Spitfire I dont feel like anything has changed (maybe except from the fact that there is less vulching and more fight over targets, but thats possibly due to more people flying) - outcome remains the same. 109s and 190s are on the top as they were before. Even if Spitfire could be dangerous, it cant follow anyone in level flight and cant climb extensively or pilot will blow up his engine. Sure, in maneuvering fights it can shine. But more often I see people doing vertical than horizontal. Or if 109/190 spots Spitfire on his tail it can just fly away easily.

At least now in Mustang I can get some fun now :)  

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Honestly, after flying more on multi with Spitfire I dont feel like anything has changed (maybe except from the fact that there is less vulching and more fight over targets, but thats possibly due to more people flying) - outcome remains the same. 109s and 190s are on the top as they were before. Even if Spitfire could be dangerous, it cant follow anyone in level flight and cant climb extensively or pilot will blow up his engine. Sure, in maneuvering fights it can shine. But more often I see people doing vertical than horizontal. Or if 109/190 spots Spitfire on his tail it can just fly away easily.

At least now in Mustang I can get some fun now :)  

 

I think in a 1v1 you are absolutely doomed in the German aircraft, when the Spit is behind you. It's pretty much the same like Sabre against Mig..Sabre can fly away, but that's pretty much it. 

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Not if you're flying it properly and don't get jumped. If you get jumped, anything can kill anything. In any case, I don't plan to buy the spit given the current state of DCS. It's good with modern-ish jets and choppers but WW2/Korea feels like a tacked on after thought (which it is, but that's a whole different thread and half). I'll reevaluate when some progress is made on DM, AI FM and content. In other DCS news, LNS posted a cold start video for their upcoming AJS-37 (currently in closed beta test). Video below (with a few known bugs, like the overly stiff gear):

 

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I think in a 1v1 you are absolutely doomed in the German aircraft, when the Spit is behind you.

How you can be doomed if you can run away and climb away if need be ? I saw no problem extending in 190 at any time, Spitfire is unable to keep up. Press MW50 and boom, you're like torpedo. K-4 can just enter steep climb which Spitfire will hardly be able to follow unless one wants to blow up his own engine (happened to me in Spitfire quite a few times both on multi and against Ai, that I seriously question that cooling model). 

Dont do anything stupid, dont maneuver with Spitfire and you will be able to dominate it easily. 

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What bugs me a little is that I have yet to find my "favourite" among their modules,

Mine is definitely the MI 8, I love fly Las Vegas with it, just land on roofs and tight spaces. I fly under in-between and over with the Huey , I do mostly campaign with the KA 50 but get too greedy and target focused most of the time, so that frustrate me. All in all I enjoy DCS for Heil flights. Just learned the basics with the A 10 C and the complexity entertain me. The constant learning intrigue me the most.

I thought I would fly WW2 planes , but they simply do not interest me, I like them and all that, but see absolutely no purpose in them right now, since I enjoy choppers for free flight 

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How you can be doomed if you can run away and climb away if need be ? I saw no problem extending in 190 at any time, Spitfire is unable to keep up. Press MW50 and boom, you're like torpedo. K-4 can just enter steep climb which Spitfire will hardly be able to follow unless one wants to blow up his own engine (happened to me in Spitfire quite a few times both on multi and against Ai, that I seriously question that cooling model). 

Dont do anything stupid, dont maneuver with Spitfire and you will be able to dominate it easily. 

 

Should have been more specific, was talking about the 190. With doomed i mean you can't win a 1v1 against a decent pilot, no way. You can run away, but that's pretty much it. When - after 5 min of flying - you have enough separation to go back for a head-on, best you can hope for is a draw, both taking out each other. 

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It should be Fw-190A8 and mix of Bf-109G6 and some newly arrived G-14 you encounter in the air over Normandy in june/july 1944.

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Is that pretty much as it should be, or do you feel that it is incorrect?

It's fine. Just don't get the whining about the Spit. It's the best dogfighter in DCS. 

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Have you fought any actual players in last few days or you just say so because ...

 

Mentioned 190 maintains a steady climb and with MW50 can gain altitude advantage. 190 doesnt have to rely on head on only if it can B&Z Spitfire. Of course 190 cant turnfight Spitfire, but I assumed it goes without saying. Sorta like - never turn with a Zero. 190 is not doomed and can win even with decent pilot, there are many factors you seem to completely ignore. Just because Spitfire turns tighter doesnt mean its automatically the winner. Unless you want to forge here a new theory. 

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Yep, the Spitfire may has the best turnrate, but the spit is far away from being the best dogfighter in DCS.

A decent 109 or 190 pilot won't turn with a spit, if they stay fast the Spitfire is no threat to them.

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Have you fought any actual players in last few days or you just say so because ...

 

Mentioned 190 maintains a steady climb and with MW50 can gain altitude advantage. 190 doesnt have to rely on head on only if it can B&Z Spitfire. Of course 190 cant turnfight Spitfire, but I assumed it goes without saying. Sorta like - never turn with a Zero. 190 is not doomed and can win even with decent pilot, there are many factors you seem to completely ignore. Just because Spitfire turns tighter doesnt mean its automatically the winner. Unless you want to forge here a new theory. 

 

I tested yesterday against AI. Starting point was AI Spit 300m behind me co-alt at 1000m. The 190 can not gain altitude advantage. I tried every speed from 200 to 450, at any given speed the Spitfire closed the gap. You can't B&Z the Spitfire at co-alt. When the start begins at co-alt, the 190 can't do anything in a 1v1 beside fleeing away or head-on.

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Yeah, I can beat two Ai 109 K-4s attacking me at once. Three Ai 190s is a bit too much though. But Ai is really no indicator whatsoever, especially if you werent the one flying Spitfire, since Ai does not care about overheating, g loads and has very coordinated flying pattern. Besides, why not flying faster ? You can reach speeds that Spitfire cant, climb at his Vmax at given altitude - I do the same against I-16 in BoS for the record, normally Ischack can outclimb plenty of targets but when you force it to high speed climb it has no excess power to keep up and even E-7 can get altitude advantage. 

If I could ignore my oil and coolant like Ai can, than I'd easily throw +18 lbs and keep climbing. But I cant, frankly even supposedly 1 hour setting of 2850 RPM / +12 lbs can lead to engine failure. And I try to keep my speeds above 220 mph which should be sufficient for cooling.

This are the stats from multiplayer session on most populated WW2 server since Friday I believe, so when Spitfire was launched: http://burning-skies.zzz.com.ua/statistics/pilots 

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Climbing at his Vmax will get me a "faster" climb rate then him at the same speed, but that's nothing else then running away. He can climb way faster, and just wait till i come back at lower alt (or not).

I don't own the Spit, but i've already heard it's not easy to keep the engine at good mood. But you still can't climb away in a 190. Running away in a climb maybe. Spit will always be higher in case you come back.

Link doesn't work, but anyway. It wouldn't tell anything with substance anyway. Stats don't tell a thing about dogfighting, if enemy planes don't dogfight. This wasn't a discussion about the Spit being a better fighter then the K4, it's clearly not.

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I flew against multiple 190s yesterday, they had no issue extending and climbing away at higher speed. If I wanted to keep up and applied +16 lbs I could sustain that only for short time. Then he gained on me rather quickly. 

 

Hmpf, it opens for me. Maybe link to general screen will work: http://burning-skies.zzz.com.ua/

I agree that stats dont show everything, they are only a part of the whole picture. But there were plenty of dogfights even yesterday evening, with few 109s doing something stupid and attracting attention of numerous Spitfires and P-51s at lower altitude, which in turn were B&Z'ed mercilessly by the rest of guys. 

 

No it wasn't. I raised a point that Spitfire so far did not change anything in outcome and such stats prove that. Even if Spitfire can keep up, its quickly brought to limits by overheating. I'm honestly curious if pilots ever complained on that fact. I've read various accounts from Battle of Britain or Darwin air battles but there was little mention about overheating, far more pronounced were often armament failures and reliability problems. 

 

Sidenote:

New Spitfire guns sound mode:

 

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi

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Ok Hiromachi, on those parts i agree, all of them. But i didn't expect the Spit to change anything as well..For that we have to wait for the Spit 14 i guess, and hope it will be here soon. Or the P47, which could at least BnZ the Germans when flown smart. I am waiting for the B17 streams with Normandy map, up there at 8k the pendulum will swing.

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Dont trust VEAO at all. Saw recent forum thread about P-40 and people started calling VEAO out, since they paid for P-40 F a year ago and its still not on release when we reach end of 2017. VEAO is not a company I'd rely on as a customer and has created little to no trust, except in hardcore fans who dont really care. Except for unfinished Hawk so far VEAO proved to be least competent 3rd party developer.

I wish to know what ED does next - P-47 D was out of line for a while but apparently some new documents came to light. Me 262 was supposed to be next as well and that one I want because its just one of my favorites, not ultimate machine, just personal bias to this beauty :)

Either way there should be some ED roadmap. Polychops are delivering Ju-87 so there will finally be some machine to bomb around !

 

When soon LN will release Viggen they will have no excuse to avoid talking (though they are good at not talking and very good at excuses :) ) about F4U and Iwo Jima. There is Tomcat of course but I dont feel like development of that one affects rest of the company work. 

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi

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I am eagerly awaiting the 262 as well...but for now the most important for me is the Normandy map, with a lot of moving AI units, and bombers. Give the WW2 fighters something to do, escort, intercept, CAS...before that i am not gonna spend more money on it. Same for the modern stuff, Caucasus looks just ugly and outdated (i think even Falcon BMS has a better looking landscape from higher alt). Waiting for the Hormuz map to spend some ducats on the F5 or Tomcat.

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I'm scared of Normandy, I plan on complete change of PC with upcoming AMD Zen cpu and Vega gpu, but until then my current setup has to be enough. And all those things can seriously affect performance, as a matter of fact Spitfire has a huge effect already. Propeller animation and mirros hit frames severely. I want to see Normandy either, hopefully my PC will be ok. 

 

I hate Caucasus for one reason - no straight valley. Damn it, whenever I'm damaged there is little to no place to land on flat ground. 

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I'm scared of Normandy, I plan on complete change of PC with upcoming AMD Zen cpu and Vega gpu, 

 

Quantum CPU's (already in use in the black world) will be available to the public by then...meaning a long time. :)

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S!

 

 Maybe people are too used to the old ways of Spitfire FM where you could merrily, without any downsides, abuse the plane to heck and back. IT simply has not had any big vices in any simulator before, it was the Holy Defendor of Britain, saviour of Western world kind of a machine in them. Now when you actually have learn to fly it proper more or less, the complains arise. Won't take long before there will be the cadre of 150oct/25lbs boost crowd, mark my words :P For what I have read about Spitfire it's best qualities were not phenomenal speed or interstellar ability to climb but a good turner with decent E retention and low stall speed. This for models pre Griffon engines. And to make most out of it's capabilities required a good pilot after all, not just yank & bank. The situation is the same on ANY plane someone finds his or hers favorite, they tend to put it on a pedestal and nothing should be able to outperform it nor have any bad qualities. Applies to ALL sides equally. Still waiting for controllers, but for sure interested in the Mk. IX :) Bring on the P-47D and slap in a late model Typhoon or Tempest Mk.V :)

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Well, we had that Cliffs of Dover where Spitfire is not a dominator, its about equal to 109s out there. Some consider 109 E-4/N superior. So not sure about old ways you have in mind mate :P

 

 

 

Now when you actually have learn to fly it proper more or less, the complains arise. Won't take long before there will be the cadre of 150oct/25lbs boost crowd, mark my words

We've been there more than a dozen of times on ED forums. Usually with same result. Some of us were even banned ! (I wear a proud badge with Sithspawn ban and Wags approval !)

But its always funny that "flying properly" is getting mentioned, assuming that until now everyone was clueless ?  

 

 

 

For what I have read about Spitfire it's best qualities were not phenomenal speed or interstellar ability to climb but a good turner with decent E retention and low stall speed.

Than you havent read enough. Spitfire VIII, IX or XVI were in top league of well climbing machines :) 

 

 

 

And to make most out of it's capabilities required a good pilot after all, not just yank & bank.
 

Well, because flying 109 requires more ... stick to the di*k, loops and jumping someone from above. 

 

 

 

The situation is the same on ANY plane someone finds his or hers favorite, they tend to put it on a pedestal and nothing should be able to outperform it nor have any bad qualities.

Yeah, just wait for a Zero, Ki-61, N1K2-J Flanker !   

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Yeah, I can beat two Ai 109 K-4s attacking me at once. Three Ai 190s is a bit too much though. But Ai is really no indicator whatsoever, especially if you werent the one flying Spitfire, since Ai does not care about overheating, g loads and has very coordinated flying pattern. Besides, why not flying faster ? You can reach speeds that Spitfire cant, climb at his Vmax at given altitude - I do the same against I-16 in BoS for the record, normally Ischack can outclimb plenty of targets but when you force it to high speed climb it has no excess power to keep up and even E-7 can get altitude advantage. 

If I could ignore my oil and coolant like Ai can, than I'd easily throw +18 lbs and keep climbing. But I cant, frankly even supposedly 1 hour setting of 2850 RPM / +12 lbs can lead to engine failure. And I try to keep my speeds above 220 mph which should be sufficient for cooling.

This are the stats from multiplayer session on most populated WW2 server since Friday I believe, so when Spitfire was launched: http://burning-skies.zzz.com.ua/statistics/pilots 

 

Do you know how many people complained that 109 in impossible to defeat when the plane had gamebraking bugs like the wings  braking at 4g and the delay on the controls was hudge.

 

For sure the spitfire will get more refined with time.The 109 is far better now than it was in it's early versions .

Edited by IVJG4-Knight

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I know. I've been around those forums for long Knight. At the same time 109 had issues with wings breaking it also had amazing climb rate, when tested, it was reaching 32 m/s (now fixed) and absence of stick forces which were introduced much later. 

It will get more refined, no doubt. 

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Well, we had that Cliffs of Dover where Spitfire is not a dominator, its about equal to 109s out there. Some consider 109 E-4/N superior. So not sure about old ways you have in mind mate

Definitely not the case. Spit Mk2 is superior in most aspects, maybe apart from roll rate and speed at certain - rather tiny ranges - of altitude. Our squad is/was very affiliated with Cliffs, randomly flying Spits as well for training, and those are hugely superior, especially when flown in packs. Latest SoW was cancelled because people exploited the Spits capabilities (fly around "in space") in this campaign to the point, that it was pretty useless to fly Axis. Anyway, TF 5.0 is gonna change some things in that respect. 

 

Than you havent read enough. Spitfire VIII, IX or XVI were in top league of well climbing machines

True that, alongside the 109s Spits have always been the best climbing machines of their times. Over the time of the whole war those 2 models were definitely the most capable fighter aircraft, sometimes the 109 edging it, sometimes the Spit. Problem in game is that the Mk9 is not the contemporary model of the K4. Late G6 would be a perfect fit for it, both time and performancewise

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