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I don't like the AI


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#241 Space_Ghost

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 14:49

Yep, great news... we all knew it was wrong, glad it's getting sorted :)

 

Seems like all of us, minus one.  :salute:


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#242 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 16:30

It was more than one.
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#243 Space_Ghost

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 16:53

More than one of us reporting an issue with the AI targeting the player after hours of testing and reproduction..?

 

I would agree with that.


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#244 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 16:57

Yes, [edited], that is what I meant.

 

Last warning. Getting tired of your tone and your backs and forth nonsenses with other members.


Edited by SYN_Haashashin, 13 February 2017 - 18:07.

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#245 Gambit21

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 18:04

Oddly - in the most recent test of that mission, after changing the weather to overcast/snow the AI now attack the other aircraft in the flight.

I haven't gone back and re-tested the previous version yet.
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#246 216th_Pinko

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 18:05

Posted in the Questions to Developer thread:


Really? That is excellent news!
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#247 Gambit21

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 18:05


Oh - and that reply from Han was word for word what I was told after sending him the mission.
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#248 SYN_Haashashin

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 18:09

More than one of us reporting an issue with the AI targeting the player after hours of testing and reproduction..?

 

I would agree with that.

 

I did a lot of SP testing, still do by the way ;), and this issue presented only in certain occasions. I do agree it exists as I saw it before but to me it doesnt happens allways at all.

 

Haash


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#249 Extreme_One

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 19:13

Well, surprise surprise.
 

EDIT: AI ganging on player confirmen in my own test. F... too often I got to re-check things by myself :( To be fixed in 2.008. Thank you for rising this issue again.

 
OK, so not word-for-word but pretty damn close. ;)
 

I'd imagine, he'd say 'thanks for bringing this to our attention...


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#250 Gambit21

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 00:59

You called it. :)

Since it was via PM I didn't want to post it here, but Space_Ghost pointed out to me that he posted the same in the Questions thread afterword.


Edited by Gambit21, 14 February 2017 - 00:59.

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#251 Zami

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 01:09

You called it. :)
Since it was via PM I didn't want to post it here, but Space_Ghost pointed out to me that he posted the same in the Questions
thread afterword.

Nice work Gambit, I think every SP player owe you one for this :)
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#252 Gambit21

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 01:37

Confirmed again (thought for a minute there was a hotfix) that in the original mission I posted about above, the AI still gang up on the player aircraft.

However when I changed the weather to overcast/snow (with the flight still above the weather) the AI behave in a completely different manner and attack

the flight leader or other aircraft in the flight...which is why before testing the original version again, I thought for a minute they'd changed something.

 

These are the kinds of quirky, nonsensical things we have to deal with when building missions.  :mellow:


Edited by Gambit21, 14 February 2017 - 01:55.

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#253 unreasonable

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 02:22

I did a lot of SP testing, still do by the way ;), and this issue presented only in certain occasions. I do agree it exists as I saw it before but to me it doesnt happens allways at all.

 

Haash

 

Agreed - I have not done systematic tests like Gambit21 - but in a recent play through of "Ivan's War", 20 missions or so plus a few repeats, there were plenty of fights in which the AI enemy were shooting down AI friends. I never once felt that I was being gang-banged. Perhaps I was but too panicky to notice!

 

It will be interesting to see what was actually causing Gambit's results now that Han is alerted.


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#254 Gambit21

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 02:32

Seems to be highly situational, depending on seemingly unrelated mission parameters.


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#255 unreasonable

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 03:08

Which is odd - it would be easier to "explain" the variation in results if they were random outcomes each time you ran the mission.

 

For instance, if three enemy attack three friendlies including your own, and each enemy randomly selects one friendly for it's attention, then your plane will get the undivided attention of all three enemy on (rounded) 4% of events, two in 22%, one in 44%, and none in 30% of events.

 

Alternately, if the enemy wingmen always attack the same target as their flight leader, who choses randomly, then you would be attacked by all three 33% of the time in the same scenario.

 

Perhaps the unrelated mission parameters are somehow pre-determining the "dice roll"?  Just speculation anyway, I am sure we will soon find out what is going on.


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Nullius in verba


#256 Gambit21

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 03:41

Well in the original mission with clear weather (actually light clouds below the flight) the AI P-40's behave as described above.

In 4 tests with overcast below the flight (and snow below that) the player aircraft has been the victim of a collision with the enemy AI once, but on the other 3 occasions

emerged unscathed while other planes in the fight were attacked.

 

If I lower the flight just 50 meters, or raise the clouds 50 meters so that the fight is just flying through the upper whisps of the clouds, but still very exposed and 

visible, the AI leave them completely alone and engage the 109 escorts only.


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#257 Zami

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 03:42

I have made same observation as unreasonable while playing scripted campaigns, both official and user made. AI did not chase me any more than other planes in the air.

AI ganging on player happens but not on every mission.
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#258 Gambit21

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 03:58

Might have something to do with the Ju52 itself in the case of my testing
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#259 Gambit21

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 04:04

I have made same observation as unreasonable while playing scripted campaigns, both official and user made. AI did not chase me any more than other planes in the air.
AI ganging on player happens but not on every mission.


No but if it happens in any particular mission every time then there's a problem - as Han found in his own testing.
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#260 unreasonable

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 04:51

 

If I lower the flight just 50 meters, or raise the clouds 50 meters so that the fight is just flying through the upper whisps of the clouds, but still very exposed and 

visible, the AI leave them completely alone and engage the 109 escorts only.

 

I think the issue of changing results from raising or lowering the cloud might simply show that what we see graphically is not identical to what the AI "sees" in terms of a bubble of awareness, presumably with the clouds defined as a block of opacity of somewhat simpler shape than we see on the screen. So sometimes we can see an object but the AI cannot, and vise versa.

 

 

No but if it happens in any particular mission every time then there's a problem - as Han found in his own testing.

 

Indeed - perhaps the "seed" for random events/AI decisions is made during the mission saving process somehow, rather than on the fly during mission play. The program then just reads the numbers from a predetermined list, rather than having to regenerate at each time a random number is needed. As long as the player is not doing anything much different in run through the mission, the AI will take a "decision" at the same point and read the same number.

 

Change the mission a bit, re-save it, and a different number string is generated, so different results in the test.

 

More speculation of course (I like these intriguing mysteries :)). 


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Nullius in verba


#261 Zami

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 05:00

No but if it happens in any particular mission every time then there's a problem - as Han found in his own testing.

There is a big problem, no doubt about that. I`ve experienced it myself many times, usually flying stock campaign or PWCG missions. That`s why I was amazed that AI ganging did not happen at all in scripted campaigns I played.

 

Now that Han has spotted the problem with your help, I think we will get rid of the problem when 2.008 patch arrives. Which is soon I hope.


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