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I don't like the AI


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#41 =LD=Hiromachi

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:34

I dunno, dogfighting Ai always reminded me this Daily Mail drawing:

IjKb9H.jpg

 

Replace tanks with FW-190/Yak/Bf-109 and you have it. This is one of the things that wish to be improved, especially before Pacific as I cant imagine Ai providing now any serious CAP over the fleet. 


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#42 JG13_opcode

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:01

There will always be the Multiplayer-only snobs that feel, because they don't enjoy a single player experience then anybody that does is just plain deluded.

Why a multiplayer-only gamer would waste their time in a thread about AI is anybody's guess, since good AI or bad AI, it doesn't affect them in the slightest.

Here comes an honest question, and I hope you'll give an honest answer:  How do you deal with the knowledge that it's not another human on the other end?  

 

The AI has little quirks when it flies that let you know instantly if it's a human or the AI flying.  It does things that humans just don't do.  As a result, I find myself always conscious that it's the AI and therefore I am unable to suspend my disbelief.  To me, vying against a computer algorithm just can't hold my interest, so I'm interested to know how you find enjoyment flying offline.


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#43 Sokol1

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:07

...friendly AI kills it completely - shoulder shooting, crashing on take off and today was the final straw and my wingman first shredded my plane when shoulder shooting a 109 I was tailing then he crashed into me, ...

 

 

Looks like online play, crash on take-off, shoulder shooting, friendly kills... this AI is... "human".  :lol:


Edited by Sokol1, 17 September 2016 - 18:09.

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... guns were too quiet when engine is running and speed is high, and there was no "immersion of fire and metal storm in 2 meters aside of me"


#44 Jason_Williams

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:22

Our AI actually fly the planes. That is a whole other level of complexity to our sim that other sims don't have usually. This is why they act differently than in other sims and make mistakes. They are literally thinking A LOT and sometimes they are either too smart or too dumb.

 

The decision making processes most of you complain about is also complex and if they were easy to fix we would have fixed them long ago, but we have indeed over time improved our AI. Sometimes they have problems coping with either mission design or certain situations. Still not easy to solve without a dedicated AI team, which we don't have. 

 

AI is a pain in the ass fore many developers and one reason why MMOs are popular with developer teams. :-)

 

We'll always try to do what we can when time and resources allow.

 

Jason


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#45 Extreme_One

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:24

Here comes an honest question, and I hope you'll give an honest answer: How do you deal with the knowledge that it's not another human on the other end?

...

It's called willful suspension of disbelief.

It works the same way as when I'm watching a movie and I know it's being performed by actors. ;)

I play many games online against humans but decided long ago that flying online wasn't for me.

Humans can (willfully and inadvertantly) ruin a CFS just as readily, and in many ways more frequently, than implausible AI.

Edited by Extreme_One, 17 September 2016 - 18:32.

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#46 Bando

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:30

Thanks for the response Jason.

There are a few things mentioned here in this thread that are (hopefully) needing attention. The most important factors for me (as they ruin fun) are the differences of the gunners (AI pilot + AI gunner = sniper, Human pilot + AI gunner = getting shot down in no time) and most of all the focus of enemy AI on the player.

If these 2 factors could be resolved, well, I'd pay for that.


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#47 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:43

most of all the focus of enemy AI on the player.
.


You can fix that problem without any development help. The AI always goes after the biggest threat. Let your friendly AI attack first and use them as bait.
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#48 F/JG300_Gruber

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:00

Thanks Jason for your input.
I can imagine that programming AI ain't an easy job. Esp without dedicated programmer(s)


I sure hope BoX is not a leap back in that regards, and honestly, I don't think it is. I tend to attract AI's special attention if I'm the only one who manages to fire at them. And if the AI target selection code is threat based, maybe all the guys need to do is to adjust the threat level according the number of planes chasing someone already. Really, if four AI are chasing one target already, the fifth doesn't really make a difference, and that is easy enough to program.

 
Problem is that once this threat priority has been established (usually on who is the flight leader, hence the player) the AI very very rarely revise it's position according to the current state of the situation.
A enemy plane chasing you will usually not stop even if 2 or 3 of your wingmen are on his tail and getting hits on him. There's a problem in that way.
On the other side, if you are the one tailing an AI which is chasing one of your wingman, a lot of time i will break away before you even open fire. So maybe threat priority overall is just too high on the human plane.
 
Another thing that could be done, it's that after the first one or two minutes of engagement, all flight leader-based threat level is removed, because in a fight it's already hard enough to keep track of the position of all planes, so knowing which one is the leader is often not possible.

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber, 17 September 2016 - 19:02.

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#49 JAGER_Staiger

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:04

You can fix that problem without any development help. The AI always goes after the biggest threat. Let your friendly AI attack first and use them as bait.

 

Did you actually read the thread ? If you do that the all AI will simply switch target to you when you get into firing distance and we're back to square 0 with AI gang banging on the player.


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#50 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:13

Did you actually read the thread ? If you do that the all AI will simply switch target to you when you get into firing distance and we're back to square 0 with AI gang banging on the player.


They won't if they're busy fighting with the rest of your bai... I mean, wingmen. I rarely had a problem with AI fixating on me. In fact, I found it odd that they seemed to ignore me.
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#51 JtD

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:24

Problem is that once this threat priority has been established (usually on who is the flight leader, hence the player) the AI very very rarely revise it's position according to the current state of the situation.


My experience is different, if I have my flight attack the enemy on my six, the enemy will break and go after my flight members. Also with a certainty that is borderline stupid, in that often ALL enemies on my six break away even though only the most rear one got attacked.
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#52 cfnz

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:46

Here comes an honest question, and I hope you'll give an honest answer:  How do you deal with the knowledge that it's not another human on the other end?  

 

The AI has little quirks when it flies that let you know instantly if it's a human or the AI flying.  It does things that humans just don't do.  As a result, I find myself always conscious that it's the AI and therefore I am unable to suspend my disbelief.  To me, vying against a computer algorithm just can't hold my interest, so I'm interested to know how you find enjoyment flying offline.

 

It simply doesn't matter to me that I'm shooting bots. I'm a very logical and analytical person though, it's only ever a game and there is no concept of immersion. The enjoyment in games for me is in the game mechanics, in the case of flight sim, flying the plane and completing missions.

 

I should really go and try some IL-2 1946 to get some perspective and see if there's any YouTube footage of the flight games I enjoyed in the past. I was out of the flight game genre between about Longbow 2 and War Thunder. I do know that the War Thunder AI generates plenty of moments like the screen shot shown by F/JG300_Gruber but that is primarily a multiplayer game.


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#53 Holtzauge

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:49

Our AI actually fly the planes. That is a whole other level of complexity to our sim that other sims don't have usually. This is why they act differently than in other sims and make mistakes. They are literally thinking A LOT and sometimes they are either too smart or too dumb.

 

The decision making processes most of you complain about is also complex and if they were easy to fix we would have fixed them long ago, but we have indeed over time improved our AI. Sometimes they have problems coping with either mission design or certain situations. Still not easy to solve without a dedicated AI team, which we don't have. 

 

AI is a pain in the ass fore many developers and one reason why MMOs are popular with developer teams. :-)

 

We'll always try to do what we can when time and resources allow.

 

Jason

 

Great, maybe you and the developer team could have a group session with the AI and tell then to limit their flap usage to take off and landings? I can understand that setting up rules for them can be complex but just removing the flaps from their toolbox during combat is that really so difficult to do? Sure, we have historical anecdotes of flaps being used in combat but really those are the exception to the rule and not like here where the AI seem to have a flap fixation. Really, the IL-2 AI need to be weaned of their flap dependency...... ;)


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#54 Bearfoot

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 20:23

What's funny here is that all the specific criticisms of what the AI is doing wrong, from daisy-chaining to messing up landings to misuse of flaps to target-obsession to turn-fighting when they should not .... I've seen ostensibly real humans do. Many times. In fact, TBH, I have done many of these things myself, many a time, before. Sometimes, due to impatience/carelessness/lack-of-focus/laziness continue to do! The daisy-chaining is specifically mentioned as  very-common-yet-dumb thing seen often in online play in the book, "In Pursuit".

 

I have no problems flying against "algorithms". But then, I do not think most humans are the exalted thinking machines we like to hope we are. When done right, AI can trump a human opponent, because many times following a set of rules gets you where you want to go, whether it's chess or poker or aerial combat, and the only thing that derails you is  impatience/carelessness/lack-of-focus/laziness. An AI that correctly bides its time pulling a bunch of high yo-yo's until it is in a position to take shot trumps some impatient yahoo like myself sometimes. Having said that, that's exactly what the DCS AI does every time in an 1-on-1 encounter, and, knowing this is what allows you to win the encounter: just keep it in sight but out of its gunsights, staying close enough and keeping your energy up so that you can swoop in behind it as it stalls out at the apex of the yo-yo. Only time you fail is when you give in to impatience/carelessness/lack-of-focus/laziness. The IL2 AI is much better than the DCS AI in this regard. Though the "circle ad nauseum" gets old as well.

 

In general, I find flying against the IL2 AI much better than the DCS for WW2-type engagements. This is even given the nice control the advanced ROE/scripting interface gives you in DCS. And not just fighter-vs-fighter: I find the bomber responses in DCS pretty crazy --- sometimes they try and get on your six like a fighter, sometimes they fly straight-and-level without a care in the world no matter what you do, and sometimes they start jinking all over the place which would be nice if they then don't start an impossibly steep climbing turn that goes on to 40K+ feet!

 

The IL2 BOS response is much, much, much better. Much more believable, and the challenges it poses are much more realistic. Sure the AI can be (greatly) improved, and I think some of the suggestions above may be good places to start. E.g., more of a fog-of-war with respect to the AI awareness of its opponents. Maybe some sort of priority-based assessment of target/threat based on mission requirements, e.g. if you are escorting bombers, downweight or outright ignore threats more than a certain distance or not actually coming in hot toward your wards; if you are on a fighter sweep, prioritize fighters, but if on intercept, prioritize bombers? Maybe player direction of those priorities (e.g., "Engage bombers", "Engage fighters": I was actually surprised not find this in the list of commands). Maybe a "bag of tricks" that the AI logic can rely on, depending on what it has already decided to be the threat (so prioritize high yo-yo's against turn-fighting advantages foes, and turn-fighting against faster foes).


Edited by Bearfoot, 17 September 2016 - 20:25.

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#55 =LD=Hiromachi

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 20:25

First thing is that Ai should be limited somehow in approaching high AoA and flying close to stall speed, there should exist a margin for that to my mind. So far if its a 109, its riding on a stall edge making very tight turns but if its FW-190/La-5/P-40 it tends way too often to stall and then it cant recover, crashes and neither me is happy as I was willing to enjoy a dogfight and ai is dead. 

Also Ai tends to press head on attacks every time it is possible, its very cocky  :lol:


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#56 Mmaruda

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 20:31

Here comes an honest question, and I hope you'll give an honest answer:  How do you deal with the knowledge that it's not another human on the other end?  

 

The AI has little quirks when it flies that let you know instantly if it's a human or the AI flying.  It does things that humans just don't do.  As a result, I find myself always conscious that it's the AI and therefore I am unable to suspend my disbelief.  To me, vying against a computer algorithm just can't hold my interest, so I'm interested to know how you find enjoyment flying offline.

 

Here is my honest answer: some of us simply do not like dealing with other people in game. Also, some of us do not like other people in general. Bonus points: immature mentality of a significant portion of any online game community; in racings sim it's the crash kiddies and drifters, in tactical sim it's the people with Counter-Strike mentality (obligatory hard bass through open mic so everyone can enjoy) and in flight sim, it's the Airquake mentality - random people doing random dogfights to the death.

 

Last time I went online in IL-2 there was around 40 people in the server. Everyone was taking off, flying somewhere, getting some kills, then getting killed eventually. I have seen maybe one plane returning to base throughout the whole match. People would still go on the offensive even in badly damaged planes. One guy was doing bombing runs in a Heinkel, asking for cover which he never got and since he was flying alone, he was always ending up in flames. If you ever see a several bomber pilots online, they struggle to stay in close formation and get shredded by single fighter pilots quickly. Any sort of organised match with people doing proper 'missions' online happens only when virtual squadrons show up in numbers and have a plan. Add to that the rammers, people who can't taxi and people who do not understand the concept of holding short because the airstrip is occupied or somebody is about to land and I ask you, how do you find enjoyment in flying online at all?


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#57 lefuneste

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 20:54

Our AI actually fly the planes. That is a whole other level of complexity to our sim that other sims don't have usually. This is why they act differently than in other sims and make mistakes. They are literally thinking A LOT and sometimes they are either too smart or too dumb.

 

The decision making processes most of you complain about is also complex and if they were easy to fix we would have fixed them long ago, but we have indeed over time improved our AI. Sometimes they have problems coping with either mission design or certain situations. Still not easy to solve without a dedicated AI team, which we don't have. 

 

AI is a pain in the ass fore many developers and one reason why MMOs are popular with developer teams. :-)

 

We'll always try to do what we can when time and resources allow.

 

Jason

 

At first, many thanks to spend your time reading our endless complain, and responding them !

Of course, we knows that having a good AI is very challenging and resource consuming. I do not think that there is yet a sim with a "good" AI.

 

 I think that most of us are like cfnz, who  wrote "I don't have any expectations of the AI in terms of being challenging or 'human-like'. It just needs to be good enough to enhance my enjoyment of flying the aircraft."

 

So I don't ask to have an overpowered AI yet, but if you can start a step by step improvement of it, it should be very successful for all the BoS suite.

If seems to me that the AI problem has been considered as minor.

  • For example I have read in a post dedicated to future of BoK (unfortunately I can not find it again...) that work on AI was on the same priority level than adding female pilot model.
  • Another example is the time spent (years !) to fix the "lazzy" gunner, that were regulary going to sit when a fighter was still in position to attack the bomber...

 

But AI is a real keypoint for gameplay. And there is a real market for SP in sim, just see the increasing number of SP campaign in DCS store (By the way the DCS AI is bad too, but the hand made scripts in campaign can hide it !).

 

Maybe some improvement can be done without entering too deep into AI logic. For example target/task sharing to avoid situation like in post 21, better engagement or disengagement logic, and so on...

 

But I'm not a developper...But today I will better pay for a better AI than for another plane or even another map.


Edited by lefuneste, 17 September 2016 - 20:57.

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#58 JG13_opcode

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:00

I ask you, how do you find enjoyment in flying online at all?


Because I'd rather test my skills against an actual human than against a computer algorithm. If I'm playing against bots I might as well be simulating a flight from LAX to CDG in an Airbus. I just literally don't see why a person would bother. If there's nobody online I don't play singleplayer; I go do something else.
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#59 lefuneste

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:07

Here is my honest answer: some of us simply do not like dealing with other people in game. Also, some of us do not like other people in general. Bonus points: immature mentality of a significant portion of any online game community; in racings sim it's the crash kiddies and drifters, in tactical sim it's the people with Counter-Strike mentality (obligatory hard bass through open mic so everyone can enjoy) and in flight sim, it's the Airquake mentality - random people doing random dogfights to the death.

 

Last time I went online in IL-2 there was around 40 people in the server. Everyone was taking off, flying somewhere, getting some kills, then getting killed eventually. I have seen maybe one plane returning to base throughout the whole match. People would still go on the offensive even in badly damaged planes. One guy was doing bombing runs in a Heinkel, asking for cover which he never got and since he was flying alone, he was always ending up in flames. If you ever see a several bomber pilots online, they struggle to stay in close formation and get shredded by single fighter pilots quickly. Any sort of organised match with people doing proper 'missions' online happens only when virtual squadrons show up in numbers and have a plan. Add to that the rammers, people who can't taxi and people who do not understand the concept of holding short because the airstrip is occupied or somebody is about to land and I ask you, how do you find enjoyment in flying online at all?

 

+1 : It's a real challenge to build a MP cooperative system allowing people to cooperate easily.  Even if you want to help/escort/fly with other player, it's really hard at the moment, if you are not in a online squadron. I also give away on this aspect of BoS...

For information, I have posted an idea some time ago that need also to have an AI at minimum level (based on AI planes that can be dynamically replaced by players to allow people joining a session after the start to be directly near player firstly connected, and on same objective).


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#60 Bearfoot

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:24

Because I'd rather test my skills against an actual human than against a computer algorithm. If I'm playing against bots I might as well be simulating a flight from LAX to CDG in an Airbus. I just literally don't see why a person would bother. If there's nobody online I don't play singleplayer; I go do something else.

 

So, just to be clear, it's nothing to do with how good or bad the AI is (or this is secondary), but just some sort of imagined satisfaction based on the need/want for human interaction? I'm not challenging or dissing, just confirming. Because, in that case, no matter how good the AI is, you are not going to happy, and thus any contribution toward this discussion may be not be very helpful and irrelevant?


Edited by Bearfoot, 17 September 2016 - 21:26.

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#61 cfnz

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:25

Because I'd rather test my skills against an actual human than against a computer algorithm. If I'm playing against bots I might as well be simulating a flight from LAX to CDG in an Airbus. I just literally don't see why a person would bother. If there's nobody online I don't play singleplayer; I go do something else.

 

Out of interest, how often are you actually testing your skills? From a purely practical standpoint there's no difference between shooting down a bot and shooting down a player that's oblivious to your presence. Yet people state the former is boring but happily do the latter. Is it just that there's the potential the human might to something to make things interesting whereas the AI never will?


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#62 JG13_opcode

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:28

So, just to be clear, it's nothing to do with how good or bad the AI is (or this is secondary), but just some sort of imagined satisfaction based on the need/want for human interaction? I'm not challenging or dissing, just confirming. Because, in that case, no matter how good the AI is, you are not going to happy, and you thus any contribution in this vein toward this discussion may be not very helpful and irrelevant?

The quality of the AI isn't secondary. If it wasn't so obvious with the wing-wobbling thing or the magical "stay out of your crosshairs" sense they have, it'd be more palatable to me. I just find it boring to play against the AI because it's just so unrealistic in its behaviour.
 
 

Out of interest, how often are you actually testing your skills? From a purely practical standpoint there's no difference between shooting down a bot and shooting down a player that's oblivious to your presence. Yet people state the former is boring but happily do the latter. Is it just that there's the potential the human might to something to make things interesting whereas the AI never will?

If you get a bounce online it means you set up your approach correctly. You hid in the sun or dove for their blind spot. That is a skill you can learn and practice, just like situational awareness in the cockpit is also a skill you can practice. Against the AI they just magically see you, even through cloud. Online when you don't get a bounce then you can have a really great match against the other pilot(s); to see who can get inside the other's OODA loop.

Edited by JG13_opcode, 17 September 2016 - 21:30.

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#63 Bando

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:30

Because I'd rather test my skills against an actual human than against a computer algorithm. If I'm playing against bots I might as well be simulating a flight from LAX to CDG in an Airbus. I just literally don't see why a person would bother. If there's nobody online I don't play singleplayer; I go do something else.

 

Well, I'm glad you can find some satisfaction in playing online. I think Mmaruda has a point as I tried to play online and turned away in disgust after encountering you lot.

I'm not playing this to test my skills.

 

I'm trying to have fun. And I (let me repeat: I) do not like it online but have most fun offline. It would be perfect if the AI problems were solved or bettered.

 

Out.


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#64 JG13_opcode

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:32

I'm not playing this to test my skills.


Why not watch a movie, then? I honestly don't see the difference.

turned away in disgust after encountering you lot.


Who's the snob now?
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#65 Bearfoot

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:32

It simply doesn't matter to me that I'm shooting bots. I'm a very logical and analytical person though, it's only ever a game and there is no concept of immersion. The enjoyment in games for me is in the game mechanics, in the case of flight sim, flying the plane and completing missions.

 

This.

 

I get all the human interaction I need/want from other channels/avenues. Not knocking MP. But unless the server community sets a different tone, I'll take a decent AI running well-scripted/coordinated missions in SP over the noise of pointless chatter and "airquake" uncoordinated lone-wolf yahooing in MP. 


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#66 Bando

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:33

Well, that says more about you than it does about me....

 

Never mind, you don't want to get it, I'm out of this discussion.


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#67 Bearfoot

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 21:43

Why not watch a movie, then? I honestly don't see the difference.
 

 

This is being facetious, no?

 

One could come back with "if what you want is to test your skills against humans, why not go play golf or tennis or football or (gasp!) even Warthunder. I honestly don't see a difference."

 

It's silly, of course, both ways.

 

Don't be silly. 


Edited by Bearfoot, 17 September 2016 - 21:43.

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#68 Gambit21

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:05

He's being extremely silly - in fact I typed a long post earlier about how silly he was being but deleted it.


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#69 JG13_opcode

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:09

I get all the human interaction I need/want from other channels/avenues. Not knocking MP. But unless the server community sets a different tone, I'll take a decent AI running well-scripted/coordinated missions in SP over the noise of pointless chatter and "airquake" uncoordinated lone-wolf yahooing in MP.

Dogfight servers are always like that, though.

Online multiplayer campaigns like TAW are, IMHO, where the real game is.
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#70 LF_ManuV

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:19

Now that the PW campaign is doing a great advance , the team should try to improve the AI in small steps, Offline experience is the "big forgotten" but one of the most importants at the end of the day, and now even more that a "Coop" style is going to be released.


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Thanks PA-Sniv, a very good person on this community 


#71 F/JG300_Gruber

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:26

What's funny here is that all the specific criticisms of what the AI is doing wrong, from daisy-chaining to messing up landings to misuse of flaps to target-obsession to turn-fighting when they should not .... I've seen ostensibly real humans do. Many times. In fact, TBH, I have done many of these things myself, many a time, before. Sometimes, due to impatience/carelessness/lack-of-focus/laziness continue to do! The daisy-chaining is specifically mentioned as  very-common-yet-dumb thing seen often in online play in the book, "In Pursuit".
[...]

I grant you that for sure, esp on WoL this seems to be a pretty standard behaviour  :biggrin: (and also what's keeps me away from this server).

 

Taking what you said into account, I do now believe than indeed AI is somewhat talented at mimic some aspects of human behavior.

But what they mimic is the individual careless attitude of lone wolfs populating the servers.

 

When you fly with squadmates, things gets much more different and you fly in a more strict and organized way, and fight as a team.

This is the main point to have AI as wingmen, and sometimes as fighter cover. And that's what the AI is really failing at for the moment.

Aside from flying in formation as long as they don't have anything else to get distracted, there is no feeling that you will ever have some kind of support from them.

But now that you made that point, I will never say again that the AI not acting like some real humans we have out there :P 


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#72 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:35

I think Mmaruda has a point as I tried to play online and turned away in disgust after encountering you lot.

 

 

What "lot" is that?


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#73 WTornado

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:49

I tried to play online and turned away in disgust after encountering you lot.

 

You think it is bad playing online with human pilots in here?

 

Try playing World of tanks when the match starts and the tank beside you rubs up against you like a cat and  the tank wiggles its butt happily and

moves its cannon like a happy elephant and drives away. 

 

Piloting online in this game is nice.


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Success flourishes only in perseverance — ceaseless, restless perseverance.

 

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#74 DD_Arthur

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:50

Last time I went online in IL-2 there was around 40 people in the server. Everyone was taking off, flying somewhere, getting some kills, then getting killed eventually. I have seen maybe one plane returning to base throughout the whole match. People would still go on the offensive even in badly damaged planes. One guy was doing bombing runs in a Heinkel, asking for cover which he never got and since he was flying alone, he was always ending up in flames. If you ever see a several bomber pilots online, they struggle to stay in close formation and get shredded by single fighter pilots quickly. Any sort of organised match with people doing proper 'missions' online happens only when virtual squadrons show up in numbers and have a plan. Add to that the rammers, people who can't taxi and people who do not understand the concept of holding short because the airstrip is occupied or somebody is about to land and I ask you, how do you find enjoyment in flying online at all?

 

Like it or not, this is an accurate description of on line play on the popular dogfight servers at the present time.  Not to mention the trash talk in chat.

 

To the OP; yes, the a.i. behaviour and commands leave a lot to be desired. It's not the worst, it's not the greatest either.  I think the gold standard for a.i. is Team Daidalos's effort for IL2 1946.  I see lots of good suggestions for improvements in this thread but I think we'll have to wait for Jason's deep dive before we get fundamental changes.


Edited by DD_Arthur, 17 September 2016 - 23:08.

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#75 Extreme_One

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:51

Unfortunately, in any multiplayer game, in every gaming genre, it's very difficult to avoid the e-peen crowd, or the angry-shouty kiddies, or the gamers that want to win-at-any-cost, the don't care about the objective crowd, the gloating, insulting players, the script-kiddies, the exploit hunters and the trolls.

 

Its a sad fact that the honest, honourable, polite and friendly gamer seems to be in the tiny minority.

 

I choose to avoid all the above by playing offline where the only issue is the plausibility of the AI.


Edited by Extreme_One, 17 September 2016 - 22:52.

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I'll drink to the Spirit of ’46

#76 BazzaLB

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 23:53

If it was true that the only people buying this product are those who play online only, I doubt there would be enough money to build a couple more planes, let alone a complete theatre. I would be pretty sure there is a silent majority of SP only players who neither can be bothered with MP only or forum bickering.

As such I believe there is a major demand for improved SP with better campaigns, mission editors, AI. Put some more love into SP and you may find more people returning to the series.

Of course I could be completely wrong and if I am then if what people say about the numbers of people playing online is anything to go by, I would imagine this series has a very hard road ahead because the player numbers don't add up to very much revenue.
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#77 Ace_Pilto

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 00:24

AI is a pain in the ass fore many developers and one reason why MMOs are popular with developer teams. :-)

65124194.jpg

 

You have to adapt to the AI in SP campaigns, they can be a real hassle in some missions like ground attack where there is a lot of enemy fighters and you need an escort but if you get creative and think of ways around their more wacky behavior they aren't that bad. They can put up a good fight sometimes, for a few turns anyway. The balance between them being dogfight drones and realistically capable of performing an assigned task like "escort" is very strongly in the dog fighting corner so just accept the fact that they are capriciously indifferent to your survival and do your best to enjoy the challenge.

 

Here are some tips to help you guys enjoy the SP more anyway:

 

If you're fighting against them in a fighter, they're generally too aggressive, not defending or trying to gain speed when they really should, instead they'll blow all of their energy for a silly prophang shot from 500m (Just like a lot of real people). Usually they are pretty easy to murder provided you can stay out of their guns envelope so make that priority #1. They are also bad at head-ons so don't be afraid to take the Pepsi challenge in frontal attacks.

 

If you aren't in a fighter OR if you want them to do their job then always fly as the leader of your formation, it's just so much easier that way. As leader you can use the orders to keep friendly AI in line (to an extent) so long as you practice with it a bit and get to know their limitations. I find that they are usually very obedient provided I don;t ask them to do stupid things like rejoin when they are under attack. If you MUST fly as a subordinate then just treat them like scenery and focus on keeping yourself alive because they don't give a hoot that you're 30 missions into a DiD career. They won't help you, they won't even come to your funeral and say what a nice guy you were, rotten bastards.

 

Finally, sometimes you just can't win. Go home, run away, save your skin and stop banging your head against a brick wall. There's no shame in realising that your situation is hopeless and being proactive about survival.


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#78 unreasonable

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 02:51

Because I'd rather test my skills against an actual human than against a computer algorithm. If I'm playing against bots I might as well be simulating a flight from LAX to CDG in an Airbus. I just literally don't see why a person would bother. If there's nobody online I don't play singleplayer; I go do something else.

 

The point is that us SP types are not there to "test our skills against [an opponent]". We are there to excite our imaginations, specifically to try to feel what our game personage might have felt if the mission had been real. (Except for the actual burning, crushing etc ;))

 

I understand why MP people do it - I have a little BoS MP experience and at it's best (6-7 people taking off in Pe2s to bomb the same German base, with me tagging along in a Lagg with a bomb to watch the fun) it was great. Also sneaking up under people and shooting them down while listening to their blather on TeamSpeak was immensely satisfying. But getting team killed by people who fly right along side you for a minute so have no mis-identification excuse...

 

A common misconception MP players have is that SP is easy. Of course duelling 1-1, or even 1-several can be easy for an experienced MP flyer. But SP is best experienced when playing dead-is-dead: you know, just like actual combat pilots. So you try to progress through a career or campaign and live to tell the tale, and this is not easy at all and forces a much more cautious (and dare I say realistic) manner of flying. (Actually is impossible to do if mission designers think that an average loss rate per mission of 50% plus is reasonable, but that is another matter....)


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Nullius in verba


#79 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 03:02

 

A common misconception MP players have is that SP is easy. 

 

It's not a misconception.  I played plenty of SP to unlock the stuff I paid for.  SP is definitely much easier than MP.  Flying German fighters is ridiculously easy, but even the missions in the Russian fighters are a lot easier than they would be in MP.  Being a decent SP pilot is a good first step to getting crushed in MP.


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#80 unreasonable

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 03:21

It's not a misconception.  I played plenty of SP to unlock the stuff I paid for.  SP is definitely much easier than MP.  Flying German fighters is ridiculously easy, but even the missions in the Russian fighters are a lot easier than they would be in MP.  Being a decent SP pilot is a good first step to getting crushed in MP.

 

BSR missing the point as usual. You can define "easiness" however you like: I am talking about the ability to survive a large number of SP missions without getting killed while making a good faith effort to achieve your mission objectives. This is not at all easy, and has little to do with AI skill vs human skill. 

 

Avoiding ground fire for instance: certainly you can reduce your chances of being hit with the correct tactics, but you cannot avoid it with certainty. Get fired at often enough and you will be hit eventually. Survival then is a matter of luck - what damage you take, where your plane is located when hit, what other planes are around to finish you off...Attacking bombers is the same. You only need one random bullet in the wrong place if you are on the wrong side of the lines and your career is over.


Edited by unreasonable, 18 September 2016 - 03:22.

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