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Asgar

Bf 109 G-4 or G-6

  

201 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think the BoK Expansion should come with a 109 G-4 or a G-6

    • Bf 109 G-4
      63
    • Bf 109 G-6
      128
    • other (specify below)
      10


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I'm very excited about the Bok announcement and the plans for the coming years. I really love the plane set except for one little thing, the 109 G-4.

It's not that i dislike the plane, but i don't see how it will be different from the G-2 we already have and that's why i feel like modelling the G-4 would be a waste of time, because it doesn't really add any gameplay. 

The Bf 109 G-6 on the other hand would add a 109 with a completely different feel to the 109 line-up that we currently have. It replaces the 7.92mm MGs with 13mm one and the MG 151 can be replaced with a MK 108 30mm cannon. Both of these guns could also appear on the He 111 H-16 and the Bf 110 G-2 respectively.

 

The Bf 109 G-4 in general is a really rare air plane with only about 800 produced the G6 on the other hand is the most produced airplane in the 109 series with about 7.800 produced.

I feel like the resources of the developers are better used creating the 109 G-6 and i would like to hear what the rest of the community thinks about that. Not only the Luftwaffe pilots, but also VVS.  :salute: 

btw. i'm super excited to use the P-39 and it's grape fruit launcher :)

 

post-24142-0-95998400-1473534792_thumb.jpg

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar
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The G-6 was not present.

 

Anyway, I think they should've considered making the BoS G-2 a free plane to use with BoK and add another plane type instead (Hs-123 or whatever).

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it was over Kuban, and we don't have a time frame for the BoK expansion  ;)

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I think IAR80 would be a better choice. I think it was present during the battle.

Edited by =LD=Solty
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it was over Kuban, and we don't have a time frame for the BoK expansion  ;)

 

Air battle over "Blue line"/"Gothenkopf" lasted from 17 april to 8 june.

 

There were no Bf109G-6 in that region in that timeframe, and even on entire Eastern Front. JG3 and JG52 used Bf109G-2 and Bf109G-4 during that battle.

 

Just admit it.

I think IAR80 would be a better choice. I think it was present during the battle.

 

Only in Home Defence duties in Romania, but not at Eastern Front.

Last IAR-80/81 leaved Stalingrad in january 1943.

 

 

It replaces the 7.92mm MGs with 13mm one and the MG 151 can be replaced with a MK 108 30mm cannon. Both of these guns have to be developed anyway since they should appear on the He 111 H-16 and the Bf 110 G-2.
 

 

What? MG131 in Bf110G-2?

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MK 108 in 110 G-2. 13mm in the H-16


let's be honest here. the G-4 is a waste of time. it brings nothing new to the game. There was no 190 A-3 at Stalingrad yet we have it, so why not bring the G-6 it's not like the Russians don't have the planes to face it. Yak-1b Yak-7b, even the P-39 can easily compete at low alt if not even out perform the G-6.

The G-6 bring something new to the game a 109 with a different feel, while the G-4 is a carbon copy of the G-2 that's already available. it's not worth wasting development time on it.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar
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MK 108 in 110 G-2.

 

MK108 was applied for serial prodiction as /R3 modification of Bf110G in december 1943. But lots of problems, connected with MK108 mounting, delayed actual appearence. Finally, all problems were resolved only in March 1944. And Bf110G-2/R3 were produced only from april 1944.

Edited by I./ZG1_Panzerbar

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the 87 G-1 was first used in Kursk yet we have the BK 3,7 in BoS ;) this "new" IL-2 has never been 100% historic. It's about the planes and making them interesting within the scope of several expansions

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar

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General rule, sounded by Devs:

 

If an aircraft was in active service in Eastern Front during BoX period, it could appear in BoX.

 

 

 

the 87 G-1 was first used in Kursk yet we have the BK 3,7 in BoS

 

First time, it appeared in December 1942 in central part of Eastern Front, in Versuchskommando für Panzerbekämpfung, and was tested in combat during whole winter and spring 1942/43.

 

 

 

There was no 190 A-3 at Stalingrad yet we have it
 

 

Fw190A-3 was on the Eastern front from September 1942, in JG51, in the Central part of front. During Battle of Velikie Luki (december-january 1943) there were 3 Gruppen of Fw190A's.


 

 

the G-4 is a waste of time. it brings nothing new to the game.

 

-new, bigger wheels = better ground handling and take-off/landing chars

-1.42 Ata -

 

I beleive it will be a BIT different aircraft.

 

It would be faster then G-2, and not so heavy and overloaded as crumpy G-6.

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nope, no 1.42 ata, because that was only allowed after the timeframe of Battle of Kuban (1.42 was only cleared by RLM in october '43), so except for the bigger wheels it's identical to the G-2 unless we get ingame radio communication :D

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar

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Air battle over "Blue line"/"Gothenkopf" lasted from 17 april to 8 june.

 

There were no Bf109G-6 in that region in that timeframe, and even on entire Eastern Front. JG3 and JG52 used Bf109G-2 and Bf109G-4 during that battle.

 

Looking at the the unit aircraft movement list, it doesn't appear to be true. Lots of G-6s received by the units in the June-July period.

 

To me the G-4 just does not make any sense since its basically identical to the  a G-2 (a late G-2 if you wish with VHF radios which doesn't mean anything in the sim unless they make clearer sounding German radio for this purpose.. which I doubt will happen). The G-6 otoh is a very important type for the whole war, it adds a 13mm HMG upgrade for gaming purposes, possibly new loadouts like new Erla canopy, WGr 21 rockets etc...

 

First receipt of G-6s with JG 3 and JG 52. Marked bold unit near Kertsch peninsula.

 

Stab JG 3: 2 G-6s transferred from other units in October 1943 (stationed in Rheinberg, Germany)

I. Gruppe JG 3: 20 new G-6s received from factories in May 1943 (stationed in Mönchen Gladbach, Germany at the time)

II. Gruppe JG 3: 37 new G-6s received from factories in July 1943 (stationed in Charkow-Roganj, Ukraine? and Anapa, Kuban)

III. Gruppe JG 3: 2 new G-6s received from factories in June 1943 (and 21 more in next month) - statinoned and field airfield "Uhu", Bessonowka and Makejewka - these are in Donyeck region, Ukrain, close to Kuban front, but the unit soon left for Germany in late August.

IV. Gruppe JG 3: 34 new G-6s received from factories in June 1943 - but they were stationed in Italy/Germany at the time.

 

Stab JG 52: 3 new G-6s received from factory in June 1943 (stationed in Rostow/Ssarawoj, USSR - quite close to Kuban area)

I. Gruppe JG 52: 36 new G-6s received from factories in June 1943 (stationed in "Gostagajewskaja" then Melitpol Ukraine, USSR at the time, close to Crimean too)

II. Gruppe JG 52: 2 new G-6s received from factories in June 1943 (+13 in next month) (stationed in Artemovsk, Taganrog, Mariopol, Kertsch IV etc., ie. Kuban area)

III. Gruppe JG 52: 6 new G-6s received from factories in June 1943 (and 21 more in next month) - statinoned and field airfield Taman and Ugrim at the time - these are in Kertsch peninsula too).

15. (Croation) Staffel JG 52: 7 new G-6s received from factories in October 1943 -  they were stationed in Maikop at the time but soon left to Croatia

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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Kurfurst.

 

Yes, it is known info.

 

Do You have additional info, when eexactly in june those Bf109G-6's came?

 

Again, timeframe is from 17 april to 8 june 1943.

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I don't think this poll has any effect on their decision, but I definitely agree that G6 (over 12 000 built) would have been a better addition than G4 (1 242 built) that is practically identical to the existing G2.

 

 

new, bigger wheels = better ground handling and take-off/landing chars

 

According to Wikipedia: "The last production G-2s were fitted with the enlarged mainwheels and tailwheel while the first of the G-4s used the smaller wheels" and "The larger wheels and fairings were often retrofitted to G-2s". So this part could be at most a modification of the existing G2. The main difference - new radio that could also be a modification - has no practical role in the game.

Edited by II./JG77_Kemp

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Kurfurst.

 

Yes, it is known info.

 

Do You have additional info, when eexactly in june those Bf109G-6's came?

 

Again, timeframe is from 17 april to 8 june 1943.

 

Sadly the unit transfers are monthly breakdown. One would need to check individual plane deliveries, but I haven't seen those yet.

 

But I feel it a bit silly to argue the "battle ended 8 June". It some rather artificial end date, just like as if the air fighting would just miraculously ceased on the morning of 9th June 1943. This was hardly the case as the fighting went well over until October.

 

I suppose they want to sell the G-6 later as premium or something along the line, while we get an "extra" plane that is basically just a reskinned G-2.

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I suppose they want to sell the G-6 later as premium or something along the line, while we get an "extra" plane that is basically just a reskinned G-2.

 

Yeah, when I saw the planeset I was thinking that they would probably add a yak9/109G6 bundle like the ju52/yak1b

 

But I agree, I don't see the point of adding the G4 in the game. An extra loadout for the G2 with the 1.42ATA engine would be quicker to do with the same effect.

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Yeah, when I saw the planeset I was thinking that they would probably add a yak9/109G6 bundle like the ju52/yak1b

 

But I agree, I don't see the point of adding the G4 in the game. An extra loadout for the G2 with the 1.42ATA engine would be quicker to do with the same effect.

 

 

That's probably what they are planning to do anyway. It's good business sense and will generate mid-development revenue. If they gave it all to us at one time it may actually hinder development. Plus they model everything, not just the appearance of the plane and the skin. I for one would not be opposed to having a second plane set added as an additional collector set.

 

 

The Bf-109G-6 and Yak-9 would be an excellent pair and would most likely sell like hot cakes. BoK final release in Dec 2017. Maybe those two aircraft can be a Christmas present. It would be nice to have a RoF-like storefront where a new plane(s) would be added every quarter.

 

 

Just my $0.02

 

 

 

:salute:

Edited by II./ZG1=SPEKTRE76
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if they want to do another Collector pair that's fine with me, i take whatever i can get. they can do the IAR80 as a collector, or the G-6/AS. 

but i think investing money into modelling the G-4 which will basically be identical to the G-2 in game is a waste of development resources and doesn't add anything to the game. When work on the Pacific theater starts we should have a well rounded eastern front and the G-6 would help doing that. 

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I guess the devs want to save up the G6 for a Kursk module. There were some hints in the Russian forum, that Kursk could be possible in the future.

 

Personally I would like to see the 1.42 Ata engines as selectable modifications for the G2 and G4.

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After reading all this i asked my self if we need another Luftwaffe fighter at all or if it would be not far better to replace this Bf 109 G4 with a diffrent plane like the BV 138, or Ar 196 or He 115? These planes can also be used as a test for the next expansion Battle of Midway were seaplanes are important.

Edited by Gunsmith86

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But I feel it a bit silly to argue the "battle ended 8 June". It some rather artificial end date, just like as if the air fighting would just miraculously ceased on the morning of 9th June 1943. This was hardly the case as the fighting went well over until October.

Air fightings ceased on 7.6.1943 due to end of ground operations in the last phase of BoK = attack of Red Army on Blue line,which ended in a draw. Both sides then focused their resources to upcoming Kursk battle. Fighting over Taman peninsula restarted with Novorosiysk-Taman offensive of Red army,which started 9.9.1943 by breaking thru the Blue line and ended up 9.10.43 when last german units were evacuated thru Kerch strait to Crimea.

 

Instead of G-4 I'd like to have Hs-123 which operated there within II/Sch.G1.

Theres no need to force such variant just to follow some strange 1:1 pattern.As example,if historicly A side had 4 main types of planes in BoX and B side 8,so I will do 4 for A and 8 for B. No need to go 6vs6 adding some insignificant variants on A side and robbing B side of 2 main types.

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I guess the devs want to save up the G6 for a Kursk module. There were some hints in the Russian forum, that Kursk could be possible in the future.

 

Personally I would like to see the 1.42 Ata engines as selectable modifications for the G2 and G4.

well, if Panzerbar is right and we only get what was available during the time of BoK then the 1.42 ata is not an option. 

 

and to be honest i don't see the point in waiting for years (if there is 2+ PTO expansions plus maybe MTO) before we get the G-6 one of the most produces versions of the 109 when we have a theater that could carry it just as well. 

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added pros and cons table to opening post. hope i got everything right so far. please correct me if i made any mistakes

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar

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We have very few AC variant for Luftwaffe comparing with VVS , so I like the team's idea to model some variants of bf109 family like G4 even it dose not have big difference to its predecessor for correct time frame concern. besides we really need some 3D modeling improvement on current Bf109Gs.

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I'd like to be able to make this one. I already made it for War Thunder a long while ago.

 

 

Bf.109.G.31r.jpg

 

 

Mine:

 

 

post-12904-0-00418900-1398652842.jpg

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We have very few AC variant for Luftwaffe comparing with VVS , so I like the team's idea to model some variants of bf109 family like G4 even it dose not have big difference to its predecessor for correct time frame concern. besides we really need some 3D modeling improvement on current Bf109Gs.

as i wrote here and in other places on several occasions. the time frame is not the issue. they were there in the end of the BoK 

 

you say you like the idea of variants, but why the G-4? in game you won't even notice that it's a variant. it will be identical to the G-2 we already have. while the G-6 is actually something new

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it will be identical to the G-2 we already have.

 

Exactly!  Meaning they probably do not really have to "waste development time" on it as much as you think.

 

It's another plane that I will be happy to have.

 

The G6 will come eventually. I would pay for it as a collector plane.

Edited by MF-beepee
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it will be a waste, because they need to do new wings and undercarriage. same time could be used to make the G-6 which would actually play differently

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Of course the G-6 is more interesting than basically reusing a plane we (as in everyone who also owns BoS, which will not be true for people buying BoK without owning BoS) already have, but imho, a plane that only showed up during maybe 5% of the battle shouldn't be a part of the standard planeset and be the primary fighter aircraft and completely replacing a plane which was used the most during the BoK. Would be the same with the Fw 190 in BoS. It is also way more different compared to an G-2 than a F-4 is, but that doesn't mean that it should've been part of the normal planeset even if it could've been there, so the devs wisely decided to make it a "premium" plane, because the G-2 and F-4 were the most important German fighters during that battle.

 

To my knowledge the MK 108 was not used operationally before August 1943. Before that the few planes still equipped with those were still stationed in Germany, so it should also not show up there either. So bascially it would only have two MG131 instead of MG17 and a worse performance. Also the reasoning that the G-6 could be used in future eastern or western front scenarios is a bit ambitious, considering that the next maybe 8 years will cover the Pacific and even if Il-2 will eventually move back to the european theatre or if they will squeeze a battle of Kursk or whatever scenario in, there'll be plenty of time to add the G-6 as an collectors plane along the way.

 

Anyway, to make it short, imho the standard planeset should always cover the most important types used during the battle, the G-4 was one of them, the G-6 was not.

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Just a question. Didn't the G6 use the same engine as the G2 and G4, so it would also be affected by the reduced engine performance during mid 1943?

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exactle. it's gonna take years before we come back to a European theater, one more reason to bring the most produced version of the 109 into the game now! And as i said before, the Germans held the Kuban bridge head till Ocotober '43. I don't think the magically stopped fighting and flying there on the 8th of June 

 

if you want the most important plane in the main plane set then the G-2 should be in there (again) since people who don't own BoS wont have it. most planes at Kuban were G-2. probably because there were only ever <800 G-4 produced

 

tell me the Americans would'nt start a tantrum if we'd tell them there's going to be a western front expansion but we're covering only the time until the week the P-51 D arrived to we're not gonna put it in.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar

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Anyone find the G-6 the "ugliest" of all 109s? I mean it's got freaking tumors on the engine cowling lol

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At the Q&A Jason alluded to the G6 and La-5F as being a collector pair on the horizon - after BoK releases. I suggested it as such on day one of the Kuban announcement. I'll be happy to pick them up when they become available too.

 

I wouldn't expect a Yak9 or -5FN until Kursk.

 

Also, keep in mind that purchasers of the Kuban module will not have ANY 109's If they have not purchased the earlier modules. I think we can all agree that those purchasers will absolutely require at least one model of the 109.

 

It will likely get the 1.42 ATA to set it apart, although that is just my opinion.

 

Combine all of those factors and this DEV decision actually makes perfect sense.

 

Voted G4

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he said he noticed that people have great interest in them. but there are already two other planes that were actually planned. Jason would like to do all the planes (his word)

Edited by 6./ZG26_Asgar

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it will be a waste, because they need to do new wings and undercarriage. same time could be used to make the G-6 which would actually play differently

 

I am sorry Asgar. I do not follow your logic.

 

Are you saying adding new wings and undercarriage to an existing model, will take longer than the work of researching and producing an entirely new aircraft and all of its systems?

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if you want the most important plane in the main plane set then the G-2 should be in there (again) since people who don't own BoS wont have it. most planes at Kuban were G-2. probably because there were only ever <800 G-4 produced
 

I said the most important planes. I did not say that the G-4 was most important Bf 109 variant and like i said in my first post, i would be happy with just "copying" the BoS G-2 and including another plane which actually was important there. But a person buying BoK alone should gain access to either the G-2 or G-4, because those just were the main German fighters during the battle.

 

BTW, production numbers should imho never play a role in this, because even a plane which was not produced a lot during the war could've still played a big role during a battle. 

 

 

 

exactle. it's gonna take years before we come back to a European theater, one more reason to bring the most produced version of the 109 into the game now
 

So according to this logic, if we actually get battle of Kursk, which Bf 109 should be added then? No 109 at all, because we would already have the G-2 and G-6? And should people have to buy BoKuban to get a G-6 for BoKursk?

 

Just makes no sense to me.

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I am sorry Asgar. I do not follow your logic.

 

Are you saying adding new wings and undercarriage to an existing model, will take longer than the work of researching and producing an entirely new aircraft and all of its systems?

it's a waste because it's not adding ANYTHING to the gameplay

 

I said the most important planes. I did not say that the G-4 was most important Bf 109 variant and like i said in my first post, i would be happy with just "copying" the BoS G-2 and including another plane which actually was important there. But a person buying BoK alone should gain access to either the G-2 or G-4, because those just were the main German fighters during the battle.

 

BTW, production numbers should imho never play a role in this, because even a plane which was not produced a lot during the war could've still played a big role during a battle. 

 

 

 

 

So according to this logic, if we actually get battle of Kursk, which Bf 109 should be added then? No 109 at all, because we would already have the G-2 and G-6? And should people have to buy BoKuban to get a G-6 for BoKursk?

 

Just makes no sense to me.

 

Didn't you propose to make the G-2 free? Well, IF we get back to Kursk in 15 years. that means that the cash flow is good, how about we make the G-6 free then because it was released 15 years earlier in BoK

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Asgar - sorry, but I thought You are from Zerstorer Squad, so may be it would be better for zerstorer pilot to worry about zerstorer aircraft in BoK? ;) Lets leave single-engined fighters discussion for fighter pilots :)

 

P.S. I got some info from J.Prien's book on german fighters. It states: Bf109G-6 for JG52 - last days of june. For JG3 - first days of july 1943.

So, there are no Bf109G-6 in BoK, and no even virtual possibility for appear of it.

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I think the G-4 with the new Radio also gets the ANF-2 Radio Compass, maybe that can get more usfull with the Air-Marshall stuff

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Asgar - sorry, but I thought You are from Zerstorer Squad, so may be it would be better for zerstorer pilot to worry about zerstorer aircraft in BoK? ;) Lets leave single-engined fighters discussion for fighter pilots :)

 

P.S. I got some info from J.Prien's book on german fighters. It states: Bf109G-6 for JG52 - last days of june. For JG3 - first days of july 1943.

So, there are no Bf109G-6 in BoK, and no even virtual possibility for appear of it.

Battle of Kuban lasted till October '43 in my book. As i stated before, i doubt the Germans simply stopped fighting on the 8th of June just because historians say so. 

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