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OP, I understand that it took you some time to get test done, but what I see is not realy an accurate test. Sorry.

 

We don't know the exact ammo types in the weapons. The game shows mix of AP/HE. What does that mean? What munitions are they realy? And where are the Tracer rounds, are they just Tracer or are they IT, or maybe they are APT or APIT etc.?

Explosive rounds should be Minen. If they are not why? Was the main round for the mg151 and if they put other explosive rounds they are nerfing our gun again. I repeat the question. Why we can not chose the load for our gun like in clifs of dover or like real pilots did?

 

Also, we do not know which rounds hit at a given time, because a lot of the time you miss. So on one target you can get 3 hits with HE on whole wing and see little damage, and on the other run you can have 1 hit on the wingroot with AP and rip the wing off because it went through spars and weakened the structure.

This test would have to be done with much more precision to give any valid results. And they would have to be done a couple more times.

Omg What a coincidence im allways missing my minen rounds and with the svak im allways hiting with the correct round. I have done a lot more test and allways same results but i think you dont want a 4 hours video making more and more test. There you have other player who made other test and there you have a table with results. What a coincidence again same results than my test. He is missing minen rounds too. 

 

EDIT: Damage models should not be based on ammount of shells that hit the target, but the real damage the shell does. If I shoot with a 12,7mm API and hit your wing at the wing root with 1 or 2 shots both of them penetrate and damage the structure enough, the wing will fall off. While if you take your 20mm HEI round and are going to bang it on the steel plate behind the pilot, you can be sure nothing new happens.

And if you hit your target with 3TIMES more explosive shoud be more destructive. And if you have a bullet that penetrates the first layer and after that it makes explossion inside ripping of a lot of panels of the wing is not the same than a bullet making explosion outside 

 

 

People think that if they have a 20mm cannon, they can destroy anything with 2-5 shots. This is a wrong asumption. Many "victories" were scored because the pilot bailed out, many of them were scored without even hitting the target and some will be done with one shot to the engine block, while other will take 15 hits to the whole airplane which will account for some shattered skin and thats it.

True and thats why im making the same in exact same conditions shoting same spots and with a IA pilot who has allways same judgment about when to bail out so is the most accurate way to do the test. And what a coincidence again. We are allways mising critical spots with the german gun and allways hitting the exact spots with shvak.

 

 

Please. Evidence is there, if you dont want to see it is your choice and you allways will find this kind of argumentation to evade the true.

 

Saludos

Edited by E69_geramos109
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For example here:

 

 

9h3FOU.png

 

 

 

I'm sorry, maybe German British testing methods weren't up to standard in this occasion.

 

Edit: So that you will be satisfied :)

 Explosive damage is not afected by the wind or distance with the target only AP rounds who lose speed and piercing power. In the test wing is still there but for sure with wind and g loads that spitfire will fall in spital while the wing desintegrates in the air.

Edited by E69_geramos109

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You should actually contact Viks about all your concerns, I saw him and Gavrick looking into this thread, so they keep visiting. 

 

 

 

Explosive rounds should be Minen.
 

They are, thats the only kind of MG 151/20 explosive rounds modeled in game. Matt told you that on previous page. Along with belting.

 

 

 

If they are not why?

How did you arrive to the conclusion that they are not ? 

 

 

 

Was the main round for the mg151 and if they put other explosive rounds they are nerfing our gun again.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but not every single round in MG 151/20 belts was in reality a minengeschoß.   

 

 

 

Why we can not chose the load for our gun like in clifs of dover or like real pilots did?

Because that was the decision made over two years ago. In fact last year I proposed custom belts: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14693-custom-ammunition-belts-and-greater-variety-ammunition-types/ 

As you see there weren't many replies which seems to indicated low interest in that. 

 

Also to help, I have posted this several times on forums, here are specifications of MG 151/20 and Shvak rounds from a year ago. Since there were no changes in ammunition (or there were ? I tried to follow all Dev diaries, but I could miss something)-> http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15281-german-20mm/?p=244493

 

Please, take a notice of TNT equivalent, shrapnel quantity and other details.

 

 

 

Explosive damage is not afected by the wind or distance with the target only AP rounds who lose speed and piercing power. In the test wing is still there but for sure with wind and g loads that spitfire will fall in spital while the wing desintegrates in the air.

I'm not sure if I understand first part of your sentence correctly, if you could elaborate it please.  

For a specific thing what I meant was that damage created by the chemical energy released in explosion results in weakening of the airframe. That means that a wing structure undamaged can be exposed to high G loades, while the same structure damage will not be able to withstand mentioned loads.

 

So if you carry a test on ground with no wind and forces normally affecting airframe in flight you're results may be vastly different from combat experiences. 

 

Forgive me for being skeptical, but being here for a long time I've seen discussions of this kind happening over and over again. With recent tendency of "rediscovering" all the possible issues with German aircraft it seems that we have a mass paranoia on forums. You've done a good job testing this, I gave you details from previous discussions of this kind, including ingame values. Best chance for you is to wrap this up and contact a developer on PM to see what he has to say and possibly of adjusting things if found broken.  

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They are, thats the only kind of MG 151/20 explosive rounds modeled in game. Matt told you that on previous page. Along with belting.

 

 

How did you arrive to the conclusion that they are not ? 

 

yes, Matt who is not one of the devs, and who ansered "it was never made public" last time people were looking into belting.

 

and i can also tell you how people might conclude that the MG 151 does not use mineshells in game. because they cause less damage then Russian 20mm HE. while they should do a lot more damage. 

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yes, Matt who is not one of the devs, and who ansered "it was never made public" last time people were looking into belting.

 

and i can also tell you how people might conclude that the MG 151 does not use mineshells in game. because they cause less damage then Russian 20mm HE. while they should do a lot more damage. 

Is Han enough dev for you?

 

 

Asgar, on 25 Oct 2015 - 11:35, said: Are German Minengeschosse (or mine shells) modeled in the game?  Yes

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/page-36?do=findComment&comment=297257

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and yet the damage they do is a [Edited] joke as seen in that 60 minute video on the top of this thread

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
Rule 7

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Watch your language.

 

You must try and forgive him as you can tell this a very concerning and frustrating matter that a lot of us don't want to see ignored.

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You must try and forgive him as you can tell this a very concerning and frustrating matter that a lot of us don't want to see ignored.

 

Its very good that people are concern and want the sim to be better but...the message has to be delivered in a certain way. It is not only what you say, but how you say it. Been concern doesnt allow you to break forum rules.

 

That said, I know posting in a forum can be taken by people reading in a different way that the one the poster wanted to.

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but...the message has to be delivered in a certain way

 

Babes during the intervals?

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You should actually contact Viks about all your concerns, I saw him and Gavrick looking into this thread, so they keep visiting. 

 

 

 

 

They are, thats the only kind of MG 151/20 explosive rounds modeled in game. Matt told you that on previous page. Along with belting.

 

 

 

How did you arrive to the conclusion that they are not ? 

Because some people said that they are not minen and thats why they do not damage.

 

 

I'm sorry to disappoint you but not every single round in MG 151/20 belts was in reality a minengeschoß. 

True I said main not all. They were convined often with tracers and some more kinds of shells

 

 

 

Because that was the decision made over two years ago. In fact last year I proposed custom belts: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14693-custom-ammunition-belts-and-greater-variety-ammunition-types/ 

As you see there weren't many replies which seems to indicated low interest in that. 

Sad to hear it. Maybe is a good chance to make discussion about this again

 

Also to help, I have posted this several times on forums, here are specifications of MG 151/20 and Shvak rounds from a year ago. Since there were no changes in ammunition (or there were ? I tried to follow all Dev diaries, but I could miss something)-> http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/15281-german-20mm/?p=244493

Thanks for the info

 

Please, take a notice of TNT equivalent, shrapnel quantity and other details.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if I understand first part of your sentence correctly, if you could elaborate it please.  

For a specific thing what I meant was that damage created by the chemical energy released in explosion results in weakening of the airframe. That means that a wing structure undamaged can be exposed to high G loades, while the same structure damage will not be able to withstand mentioned loads.

I was talking about the 30mm test on that spitfire. Your point is true, a estructural damage wich can hold the wing on ground is not strong enought exposed to G loads and Wind but I Think ground test are quite good to determinate true damage caused by the shell where fracments hit and after that make a diagnosis about what shell is more destructive. Of corse in the game is not enought to make a test shoting planes on the ground

 

So if you carry a test on ground with no wind and forces normally affecting airframe in flight you're results may be vastly different from combat experiences. 

 

Forgive me for being skeptical, but being here for a long time I've seen discussions of this kind happening over and over again. With recent tendency of "rediscovering" all the possible issues with German aircraft it seems that we have a mass paranoia on forums. You've done a good job testing this, I gave you details from previous discussions of this kind, including ingame values. Best chance for you is to wrap this up and contact a developer on PM to see what he has to say and possibly of adjusting things if found broken.  

True, thats why i stoped writing in the other post and i make this one trying to do things seriously and trying to expose valid data.

Edited by E69_geramos109

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Ok the video is here. Each one take his own conclusion but lets try to do a good discusion and lets see if we can do thigs easy for the Devs so no shit comments please.

 

So this is my point of view.

 

I make a lot of test, enought to take out all placebo and feelings. Some things surprised me from both points and i did not expect some things but taking all situations i can conclude that or Shvak is too overpowered or Mg151 is too weak and i expose the poins.

 

- For the wings i can conclude favoritism for any gun. Both are quite effective and they takes about the same hits to cut the wing. This view is limited because targuets are not pulling G so...

I realice something. The 109 control cables are a weak spot that you can destroy with a shot on the wing. Fracments? and when you break this part  the plane starts to shake and it desintegrates. But it happens to me with both guns.

 

- With the distance Svak is more effective than the MG151. And please someone explain me why. Muzzle velocity is about the same. Svak has some more speed due to his barrel extension mounted trhow the engine but is that 40m/s enought to be like a laser? Distance affects AP rouns but HE rounds are not affected. For both sides. Russian shell makes explossion with the same force and same for the German famous shell it has enought energy to penetrate the first thin layer and make the explosion inside. I notice a real lack of power at 200m and with more distance you need a ridiculous amount of hits. 

 

-Svak is more powerfull. No doubt about that with the test. When you hit the center of the planes (not the wings) you need noticeable less shots than with the german gun. Please explain me again. German shells has 3 TIMES the explosive weight the russian 20 has so... Why the Svak makes more damage? 3 TIMES more grams and the shell weights about the same between 90-100 grams. Ok bigger fragments but slower fragments too. With the german a lot of fast small fragments and much more explosive damage. 

Seems that Mg is not working. You can see a big smoke cloud but is like is making explossion outside the plane not inside. There are a lot of photos showing german 20mm damage.

 

- Test shows how i only stop to shot if i destroy enemy planes but we know what happens when a russian plane is laking, smoking or something like that. It can still flying and fighting a lot more time than a german plane. Some about the lift ratio when a wing is damaged will change for the next part so thanks for that and i hope to see no more Ufos with 100 holes on wings.

 

-Why germans can not chose the shells load like real pilots can do and like in Clifs of Dover? Will devs allow that in the future?

 

-Tell me if im wrong about that but the data of 700 rounds per minute (685 tested) seems near the synchronized version of the 151 where they cant hit the prop blades but the 109 has the non synchro version so should have about 780-800 rpm

 

-Im not sure what is hapening there but the he111 leaks cooling for the left side if you hit right cooler...

 

 

Some data here about the power of the shells and the guns: http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&file=print&kid=483&page=1

 

Ok so is not placebo. Reds can not tell that is only feeling i make test lots of times but i have to recorded them to have a valid argumentation more than feelings. If someone tells me that im taking the tracks i want i will make a live video on you tube making more shots and results will not change.

thx  :friends:

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i have send some days ago  pm to Jason. Im waiting his answer i supose he has a lot of work or mp to read before mine so lets wait. I will be out for at least a week so i can not follow and answer this topic since i come back.

 

Saludos.

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i have send some days ago  pm to Jason. Im waiting his answer i supose he has a lot of work or mp to read before mine so lets wait. I will be out for at least a week so i can not follow and answer this topic since i come back.

 

Saludos.

 

Well done, thank you.

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I think a big problem about the Minshells ingame is that they are modeled as perfect HE shells (atleast it seems to me) and explode right on impact, and so it's only like a close explosion with few spiters hitting the plane. While irl it the fuse had some problems as I read somewhere (not entirely sure anymore where tho) with the shell exploding sometimes way too late (1m after it went out of the wing on the other side)

 

On how it was designed: It had a delayed fuse so it was supposed to explode about right when 2/3 - the whole shell is entered -> about Pizza sice holes were cut out. and because of the relatively high RPM it was pretty probably that a 2nd shell enters the hole and rips the stuff inside apart.

 

Belt was composed acording to wikipedia:

 

- vs big targets: Mineshell,Incendiary, ap incendiary (found in a plane 1944)

- vs fighters: 3 mineshells, incendiary, ap incendiary

 

 

 

Just my thoughts about it. thx alot for the test video and the time taken :)

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Than you for raising the issue Geramos.

 

I share the exact same feeling with my squad mates for a long time.

You took the time to make the demonstration. Many thanks again.  

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Thanks for the tests Geramos

 

I feel the same, the underpowered German 20 mm and the wood structure wings toughness of VVS planes, it must be subject to revision.

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How do you control how many rounds are fired by each trigger pull?

 

I made quick test where I tried to fire single rounds. With Yak-1 I fired 66 times (120 rounds) and with 109 F4 I fired 177 times (200 rounds). So with Yak I fired almost always 2 rounds per trigger pull but with 109 I could fire single rounds far more often. My test was very short, it has no scientific value and chance of error is huge.

 

Just wondering if we see single hits in the OPs test.

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How do you control how many rounds are fired by each trigger pull?

 

I made quick test where I tried to fire single rounds. With Yak-1 I fired 66 times (120 rounds) and with 109 F4 I fired 177 times (200 rounds). So with Yak I fired almost always 2 rounds per trigger pull but with 109 I could fire single rounds far more often. My test was very short, it has no scientific value and chance of error is huge.

 

Just wondering if we see single hits in the OPs test.

True. Is so difficult to shot a single round with the yak but we have the light of impacts and smoke to see number of hits. In the video you can see the hits with slow motion and a lot of times i say 2 hits at the same time.

That is one of the things to discuss here. Making my test i take data about the shooting cadence of the guns and the MG has only about 680 rounds per minute. It should have arround 780-800 rpm because the 109 has the unsyncroniced version of the 151. In the game is not near that data and that is why a lot of time when a plane cross your sight you only hit one or two where you should hit 3 and it makes the difference. 

Mg151 was a great gun and two of it strongs were the cadence and the power of the shell but seems we have both nerfed.

 

PD: Still have no answer from Jason

Edited by E69_geramos109
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OP, I understand that it took you some time to get test done, but what I see is not realy an accurate test. Sorry.

 

We don't know the exact ammo types in the weapons. The game shows mix of AP/HE. What does that mean? What munitions are they realy? And where are the Tracer rounds, are they just Tracer or are they IT, or maybe they are APT or APIT etc.?

 

Also, we do not know which rounds hit at a given time, because a lot of the time you miss. So on one target you can get 3 hits with HE on whole wing and see little damage, and on the other run you can have 1 hit on the wingroot with AP and rip the wing off because it went through spars and weakened the structure.

 

This test would have to be done with much more precision to give any valid results. And they would have to be done a couple more times.

 

Well your criticism might be right, If we question of a specific type of ammo is underperforming, but do we question this? For me, I would only question the following:

 

Question: Is the MG151/20 in its current iteration and ammo modeling underperforming?

I

ntroduction: Here we should state our feelings and base this on as many historical data as possible about the damage of MG151/20 against different targets and materials. Every picture we find and every test trial/videos we find.

 

Methods: Due to the limitations in our system we can only test the current iteration of MG151/20 with our given Ammo-Preset HE/AP/HE. Due to that limitation, possible variance in our results have to be cleared out by a lot of repititions and different testers. The technical replicate of each experiment should lie at n=50. The biological replicates should be =< than 3. (3 different people performing this test atleast). The Test-Method: 2 Aircrafts (YAK or 109), flying in a straight line at constant Speed (400 km/h). An only Cannon Burst of 1s or 0.5s (its discusable) is fired at a certain aimed spot. (We should discus this spot.) The damage is observed via Video and the Damage has to be somehow scored. (Lethal, Non-Lethal and so on). For analysis we can use a normal statistical approach I guess an ANOVA would be finde to do so, maybe with an Post-Hoc Test afterwards.

 

The Results we get will actually answer our Question in the beginning.

 

Okay, now we need atleast 3-6 People performing those tests, anybody got time?

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Thanks Geramos to spend a lot of time in the Test!

 

I start a while ago a similar thread because i got the same "feeling" about. Without a video but with a bit of technical data`s. As long the most argument with a blue or red glasses on, you didnt get a good discussion, even if its the truth. At the time i recognised that, i left the "discussion".

I wish you a better answer as i got.

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from russian forum http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/4997-missii-po-obstrelu-iz-flak-38-odinochnymi-vystrela/?p=461991

 

download this https://yadi.sk/d/yVMixJ-lxFjeY end put the files on your folders data files. es. C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad\data\Missions

 

set 500/600m convergence end test yourself...

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Did anyone send this to Jason?

Yes i send that to Jason and this was his asnwer from 23 september

 

"I see it, but I have no answer for you. I don't think it will change any time soon, but I will show the team."

 

 

 

Soo we have to wait and probably we can not expect a change for a long. Team seem to have time to correct some isues for reds like mig behabeur or if the 109 hangs on the air. But for that huge problem that is ruining the game for a lot the answer is allways that they are working in more important things. I know Jason want to have a better game but sadly there are more people on the team. And we know form some comments in the past the colours of thar members...

 

If is usefull for someone i put my last videos here only to have all on the same post

 

 

Edited by E69_geramos109

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Team seem to have time to correct some isues for reds like mig behabeur or if the 109 hangs on the air.

 

No and no. Most people, even very experienced pilots were unable to land and start the mig right after the patch, so while the patch was just implemented work could easily be redone.  Please stop your agenda, its even hurting your own cause.

 

Regarding 109 prophang: They asked the community for a german document they were unable to get to validate their work.

Before that they reviewed bf-110 damage model and increased its strength.

 

I am pretty sure the devs will review this ammunition effect and I am pretty sure it has less to do with german ammunition and more how Explosions of rounds are modeled, together with velocity of impact as that seems to play a large role. Even before the Bf-110 patch I shot a Bf-110 with a 75mm HE tank round. The plane stayed intact but started to burn while it should have instantly fallen to pieces.

By giving your constant assumptions and speculations over a team you do not even know, as I said before, you even hurt your own intentions by making you look very onesided and campaigning.

 

 

After all I want to say: Its good that those tests are done.  But I also say: Software is complex and demanding. If you did not work with software production yet you should maybe talk a little less loud as you propably don't know what a tough thing this is and to represent reality in realtime is one of the very hardest things to do.

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No and no. Most people, even very experienced pilots were unable to land and start the mig right after the patch, so while the patch was just implemented work could easily be redone.  Please stop your agenda, its even hurting your own cause.

 

Regarding 109 prophang: They asked the community for a german document they were unable to get to validate their work.

Before that they reviewed bf-110 damage model and increased its strength.

 

I am pretty sure the devs will review this ammunition effect and I am pretty sure it has less to do with german ammunition and more how Explosions of rounds are modeled, together with velocity of impact as that seems to play a large role. Even before the Bf-110 patch I shot a Bf-110 with a 75mm HE tank round. The plane stayed intact but started to burn while it should have instantly fallen to pieces.

By giving your constant assumptions and speculations over a team you do not even know, as I said before, you even hurt your own intentions by making you look very onesided and campaigning.

 

 

After all I want to say: Its good that those tests are done.  But I also say: Software is complex and demanding. If you did not work with software production yet you should maybe talk a little less loud as you propably don't know what a tough thing this is and to represent reality in realtime is one of the very hardest things to do.

I really want devs to change the isues like the 109 hang if is not correct. I mentioned the Mig because when they realease the new patch some complains and feelings during a short time on the russian forum were enought to review all the model and here we have to make tons of reports, test and mp to the devs only to get and aswer that is allways maybe in the future. 

 

I dont know if the isue of the mig is true. What i hear from the pilot interviewed in the 1C video is that the mig was really a very difficult plane to land even for experienced pilots and they talk also that it can not operate in some arfields. So i hope they will not change the fm only because people can not take off easily. How many moths were people complaining about the 110 weak wings? Finally they have changed after a long wait.

 

Is hard not to become paranoic with some desicions. 

Edited by E69_geramos109
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Thats the point. Changes do not come fast, they need to be stuffed inbetween other things most of the time or have a definate schedule. Think about 190, it will get a revision once they produce the A5 because they can save precious time doing that this way. And the Mig will not get a fm revision, just ground handling revision.

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Since I bought the game somewhere in June i flew RED almost exclusively. Few days ago I decided it's time to check other half of the product and I switched to LW.

Now I have to admit, that russian planes can take more punishment vs 20mm, than german vs Shvak.

Ofc it is all subjective but it's more harder to kill a russian plane, and I'm not tallking about aiming, because that's different story. I'm talking about scored hits.

 

It's almost like the HE rounds exploding behind the plane, same as the sound is lagging behind (that's why we hear hits on plane in our sight). Dunno maybe it's about ping or sth, but the general feeling is like either german cannon is underpowered or russian planes are too sturdy (in comparison with shvak vs 109).

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Thats the point. Changes do not come fast, they need to be stuffed inbetween other things most of the time or have a definate schedule. Think about 190, it will get a revision once they produce the A5 because they can save precious time doing that this way. And the Mig will not get a fm revision, just ground handling revision.

well, MiG was reworked within one patch cycle and they're already looking at the 109 prop hanging because of some "feelings" on the Russian forum ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

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well, MiG was reworked within one patch cycle and they're already looking at the 109 prop hanging because of some "feelings" on the Russian forum ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Because they just changed the gear dynamics so its sane to investigate on the issue and maybe do furth refinements and if you can't take off thats a bit of a problem.

 

Also a gear revision is hardly as much work as an fm revision.

 

Btw they are not already working on the 109 prophang or do you have more information for me? my last info was that they were searching for a german document.

109,prophangs since the beginning, so where is the problem? its not like they immediately push out fixes and revisions.

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well their first step was to look for sources that could possible prove the 109 is overperforming

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This is purely a "feeling" of mine but I think it could lead us in the direction of the problem.

 

Things I've observed in my own experience, videos throughout the forum, and this thread:

 

- Damage done by fuselage hits are what is causing the biggest difference in ShVak and MG151 performance

- Assuming that German HE and Russian HE are performing the same (assumption for the sake of this statement not trying to start a "minengeschoss is under performing" tangent), the major differences in rounds in the two cannons are AP/HE/AP for ShVak and HE/AP/HE so AP is the is the main round for the Russians and HE for the Germans

- 20mm AP rounds appear to perform as expected shooting up the rear of an aircraft, going through soft bits and annihilating the engine and pilot at the front of the plane, destroying it relatively quickly.  Demonstrated in this video and observed in my own experiences taking pure AP with the La-5

- HE rounds appear to do under performing damage against the fuselage of aircraft especially from direct six. As an Axis pilot when firing on the direct 6 of an opponent or as an Allied pilot when being shot at from my direct 6, the most catastrophic damage is usually done to the engine or pilot which infers it was caused by an AP round

 

With that said, what I believe is making the MG151 not perform as expected, is that HE 20mm rounds in general are not performing as they should. Mayaaayybe Minesgeschoss itself is not performing but a burst from a Fw190 into a target has done about the same amount of damage as a burst from an HE only La-5 into a target from my experience. The HE rounds look as if they explode on the surface with the pressure wave washing over the aircraft and the only damage done being from the shrapnel of the shell. 

 

Again just speculation, not cold hard facts, but I believe that is what the underlying issue is. 

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This is purely a "feeling" of mine but I think it could lead us in the direction of the problem.

 

Things I've observed in my own experience, videos throughout the forum, and this thread:

 

- Damage done by fuselage hits are what is causing the biggest difference in ShVak and MG151 performance

- Assuming that German HE and Russian HE are performing the same (assumption for the sake of this statement not trying to start a "minengeschoss is under performing" tangent), the major differences in rounds in the two cannons are AP/HE/AP for ShVak and HE/AP/HE so AP is the is the main round for the Russians and HE for the Germans

- 20mm AP rounds appear to perform as expected shooting up the rear of an aircraft, going through soft bits and annihilating the engine and pilot at the front of the plane, destroying it relatively quickly.  Demonstrated in this video and observed in my own experiences taking pure AP with the La-5

- HE rounds appear to do under performing damage against the fuselage of aircraft especially from direct six. As an Axis pilot when firing on the direct 6 of an opponent or as an Allied pilot when being shot at from my direct 6, the most catastrophic damage is usually done to the engine or pilot which infers it was caused by an AP round

 

With that said, what I believe is making the MG151 not perform as expected, is that HE 20mm rounds in general are not performing as they should. Mayaaayybe Minesgeschoss itself is not performing but a burst from a Fw190 into a target has done about the same amount of damage as a burst from an HE only La-5 into a target from my experience. The HE rounds look as if they explode on the surface with the pressure wave washing over the aircraft and the only damage done being from the shrapnel of the shell. 

 

Again just speculation, not cold hard facts, but I believe that is what the underlying issue is. 

I think the same. I also wrote it somewhere here before.

 

The HE shelss do not explode directly on the surface. The "trigger" is pressed on entering the surface and so it will explode shortly afterwards (acording to wikipedia about 2/3 of the shells is entered at that point) and so will rip out pizza size holes in your plane.

 

I also had more luck when the target was flying almost 90° to me or was static, which could lead to the same issue. or maybe that when the round hits it stays static in air until it explodes resulting in the actual explosion beeing behind the airplane -> doing almost no damage.

 

It also explains why the 15mm (which has more AP capability -> more like the russian ammo) is way more effective. I run the F4 with 15mm gunpods alot and they shred planes pretty good.

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Yes, good point here.

This could also explain why we suffer so many "pilot killed" and "blow up" in the Axis side.

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I think the same. I also wrote it somewhere here before.

 

The HE shelss do not explode directly on the surface. The "trigger" is pressed on entering the surface and so it will explode shortly afterwards (acording to wikipedia about 2/3 of the shells is entered at that point) and so will rip out pizza size holes in your plane.

 

I also had more luck when the target was flying almost 90° to me or was static, which could lead to the same issue. or maybe that when the round hits it stays static in air until it explodes resulting in the actual explosion beeing behind the airplane -> doing almost no damage.

 

It also explains why the 15mm (which has more AP capability -> more like the russian ammo) is way more effective. I run the F4 with 15mm gunpods alot and they shred planes pretty good.

 

So a possible problem is the game may not be modeling the delayed fuse correctly or maybe at all? I mean that would explain a lot. Especially the pictures put up of an La-5 taking point blank 20mm HE hits to the cockpit and cowling without suffering major damage.

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So a possible problem is the game may not be modeling the delayed fuse correctly or maybe at all? I mean that would explain a lot. Especially the pictures put up of an La-5 taking point blank 20mm HE hits to the cockpit and cowling without suffering major damage.

possible yes. or its due to the low muzzlevelocity which leads to some problems (same like the mk108 in wt)

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