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J3-Hetzer

Watch out...FLAK!

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First let's remind ourselves that this is an alpha. It's great that there is even a demonstration of the flak effect for us to see, far off, at the edge of the map.

 

That said, I agree with the posters that describe the ambient flak is a distraction and takes away from very real tactical piloting. They've all said it better than me. In the final, it would be a shame to see. Here in the alpha...let's relax.

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I also guess it's not final that there will be ambient flak around.

 

I peronally wouldn't like it to be present by default in the final version.

 

On a side note, a real hazard for german planes on the eastern front when flying low was small arm fire (machine guns, even rifles) coming from ground units. German pilots said that the russian troops would shoot at them with everything they had given the occasion.

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 So im a little surprised to see it discussed with such vigor. 

 

I think its because a lot of us have experience with RoF where the ambient flak is a ..........distraction.  Its an unneeded and unrealistic distraction too, especially in multiplayer.  I understand the reasoning behind it but it's just not needed.   I don't suppose it would be difficult to remove as someone made a mod in RoF , which I use in campaigns, to get rid of it.

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And what i meant by turn it off in 2 seconds, is that devs can turn it off. Its not an effect buried deep in the engine. Honestly though it has never bothered me, not even once. So im a little surprised to see it discussed with such vigor. At the end of the day if its there at game release ill have most likley forgotten that this thread exists.

 

 

I don't even know why question the importance of the discussion. Real flak in opposition to fake flak is so fundamental in a simulator that it goes beyond my comprehension. Why disdain a discussion that is making the game that you are going to play much better and realistic?
 

 

But you will be able to place real anti-air units in the editor, hence, removing fake flak is not removing flak entirely. So if you are being shot by flak over Stalingrad - you know you need to be careful and this is not just an eye-candy effect. Not to mention, flak will give away your position and will make you a blinking radar target to any nearby enemy fighters. Isn't this the atmosphere and realism one would be looking for in a WW2 sim?

 

 

That's also the question. Maybe that's it, when people say that they don't bother with fake flak is because they don't know that removing the ambient flak does not mean that the game will not have real flak.
 
The other question is, someone mentioned the limitations of the game engine, since it uses only two cores and ROF already suffers from it at the table of the mission editors (from what everyone says and from what I notice). Ambient flak might well be a "solution" that they found to do not clog the maps with too much ground objects. But they could be realistic about it and find other options together with the community. I don't see a bright future in this.

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And what i meant by turn it off in 2 seconds, is that devs can turn it off. Its not an effect buried deep in the engine. 

 

People complain at ROF and the devs not even bother to turn it off or give an explanation to us about why they stick with it. They basically say to us all: "Suck it". Which might well be an indicator that they don't want to tackle the game engine limitations. Who knows.

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I don't even know why question the importance of the discussion. Real flak in opposition to fake flak is so fundamental in a simulator that it goes beyond my comprehension. Why disdain a discussion that is making the game that you are going to play much better and realistic?
 

I don't know, Seawolf. Maybe because some has a different opinion than you?

 

Your "fake flak" is someone else's "extra added-immersion in a living battlefield environment" flak. I don't fly online (though I'd like to) so it's not an issue for me in spotting baddies. I just enjoy the effect it creates of there being a war going on that doesn't revolve solely around me (but does happen within my view).

 

 

 

(EDIT as a post was added)

I must say, Seawolf, you seem to be taking this issue far too seriously. I'm sure the RoF developers never told you to suck anything. They just have different priorities to you.

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Well there is plenty of authentic film material to give a very good idea how flak was in WW2

and this is supposed to be a WWII sim is it not, or is it a " I wish me" sim?

Edited by Lord_Haw-Haw

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I'm no flak expert. What exactly is wrong with the way the flak is represented currently? How should it be done?

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The problem is not standard flak, the problem is "ambient" flak that you see over the trenches in RoF.  It's not being fired at anything, it just appears randomly.  It was added for atmosphere, but It's not realistic at all.  Most people don't like it.  A few seem to freak out about it and proceed to spam every 777 game forum with complaints.  Hopefully it can be controlled by the mission editor in BoS.

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I'm no flak expert. What exactly is wrong with the way the flak is represented currently? How should it be done?

Have a look at post 18 there you will find a clip showing real WWII flak and how best to deal with it.

That would give immersion as some wish as that is how it was everything else is sort of well....

With luck mission makers can of course make flak to their own fancy?

Edited by Lord_Haw-Haw

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I'm no flak expert. What exactly is wrong with the way the flak is represented currently? How should it be done?

 

 

Not have flak bursts if there are no flak guns firing.

 

As for actual flak from guns firing at you, we can't comment yet.

 

Hood

 

ps  I haven't seen the flak in game but have assumed it is the ambient flak which, in RoF is irritating even if it is atmospheric...

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Haw Haw - that video you linked on flak evasion was really, really interesting.

I don't see how it makes the 'ambient flak' that much less immersive as it dealt mainly with high altitude bombers, but it was a great watch nonetheless.

As lower level flak I don't have any issue with how it appears. Ok, no, I can't see the gunners, but how many WW2 pilots, even those attacking at low level, would see the close-quarter ground defence crews in action?

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It's less immersive because it is randomly distributed throughout the trenches. Real flak would be grouped around whatever the flak is firing at.. 

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I just imagine the "box" is fairly wide, or that there are other flights going in that I can't see, or that gunners are just letting rip when they see a plane. Under those circumstances it doesn't pose much of a barrier to immersion.

We're all individuals though.

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Sure, you can try to justify it with imaginary things it could be aimed at, or you can just accept that someone important in the dev team likes it, but some people prefer to look for minor issues that they can blow up into a huge problem that ruins the entire game..  

  • Upvote 1

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I don't know, Seawolf. Maybe because some has a different opinion than you?

 

 

I never complained of anyone saying that they like ambient flak, exactly because people can differ from me. The most I can do is argue with them like we argue about other issues.
 
Maybe you are mistaken me. What I complain is when someone comes and says, "You guys should worry with more important things". You see the difference? Do you see me in other topics that ask for improvements saying that they are worrying about peanuts? It would looks like I am either a fanboy or working with an agenda. But I am not, so...
 
And if I am taking this seriously because this is an obvious and fundamental part of game play -- that have been discussed before here and at ROF -- an a issue that is being dragged around at ROF, while most people agree that it should not be in the game, and it looks like it is going to drag around at BoS too.

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Again it can be removed by devs rather quickly. But im fairly sure they arent worried about that right now. Thats not to say your points are not less important. Just not relevant at this time.

 

Imho, having the ambient flak near a combat zone will not bother me at all. But random middle of no where stuff should not be present.

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If the experience with RoF is any indicator, the ambient flak won't be removed and that is the concern here.  I think this is an excellent time to be talking about the merits of having this effect in the game.  Once the game is released, the odds start to go down dramatically that "little" things like this will be addressed.  Given the assertion that the devs could remove this effect rather quickly, it should cost them minimal time to change the code before going to release.  This is an ideal time to provide them feedback on what we want.

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But what about us that like it? I dont really want it to be removed. I like it over combat areas. Am i less important?

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Note new updated post from Zak to change log for Week 2 early access:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?p=54364

  1. Fixed issues that caused some in-game screens to load endlessly
  2. New realism setting added: Engine auto control (regulates optimal fuel mixture, propeller pitch (RPM), supercharger speed)
  3. Mini-map was fixed, directions are now shown correctly
  4. The settings screen opened from in-game menu now works correctly
  5. New explosions for the plane crashes added;
  6. A game crash issue fixed;
  7. No ground war in the far corner of the map any more;
  8. Propeller position in the hangar fixed

Seems like they're listening...

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Note new updated post from Zak to change log for Week 2 early access:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?p=54364

  1. Fixed issues that caused some in-game screens to load endlessly
  2. New realism setting added: Engine auto control (regulates optimal fuel mixture, propeller pitch (RPM), supercharger speed)
  3. Mini-map was fixed, directions are now shown correctly
  4. The settings screen opened from in-game menu now works correctly
  5. New explosions for the plane crashes added;
  6. A game crash issue fixed;
  7. No ground war in the far corner of the map any more;
  8. Propeller position in the hangar fixed

Seems like they're listening...

willing to bet it took about 2 seconds to fix lol. 

Edited by SYN_Hooves

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