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[ASOR]Pharoah

Question - why is taxiing so difficult?

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I have an x55 (incl dual throttle controls) plus pedals, and have years of playing sims. Yet I struggle to taxi any twin ingame. What am I missing? Not just that but why is it that the ground surrounding the narrow taxiways are basically made of quicksand or there are hazards? Yeah I know its a game/sim but the number of people that struggle trying to get to the main runway online is astounding...so most just take off from wherever they are. There needs to be a balance between realism and playability. Yes I know a lot of you are experts at taxiing but not everyone is. 

 

 

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Use the brakes as much as you can and go slow. If you are in a  rush you won't get anywhere.

 

I agree that as soon as you exist the paths you are screwed. I wish it wasn't as punishing as it is now.

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Just practice, find tutorials specific to this sim if you need help with your technique and you'll be fine.  Just a tip, in my experience many people unlocking their tailwheel rather than babying it with brakes, rudder and throttle just gets them in trouble(endless spins and deviations) .

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When you brake to make a turn, brake in the other direction before you complete the turn. Play with this technique a bit and you will learn how much to anticipate the opposite braking to the turn.

 

You can also practice adjusting left and right throttle to keep you on track, but that's harder to do without experience.

 

Some notes on taxi controls (and flaps) for various planes from http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/page-3?do=findComment&comment=313202:

 
  • Free tail wheel which is drawn to the center position by springs (LaGG-3, La-5, Pe-2, He-111, Bf-110);
  • Tail wheel that can be locked from cockpit (Yak-1, IL-2, Ju-87, Bf-109, MC-202);
  • Tail wheel that can be locked by pulling the flight stick (Fw-190);
  • Tail wheel linked to pedals by spring rods (I-16);
  • Tail wheel linked to pedals by spring rods that automatically unlinks at significant pedal application (P-40);
  • Tail wheel linked to pedals by spring rods that automatically fixes at neutral position at small pedal application (MiG-3)

 

Personally, I find the Yak-1 very hard to taxi with unlocked tailwheel (to zig-zag for clearing path ahead) but other planes are fine. I now leave the tailwheel locked in the Yak-1 and I can still make small direction changes with rudder and brake.

Edited by JimTM
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I find if I taxi at realistic speeds (as opposed to a video game rush) the taxiing is fine.

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I find once you get used to the braking habit it gets easier and I can go relatively fast after that. But it`s definitely harder than in previous IL2 1946. And I have yet to rush taxi across a grass verge to takeoff (I`ve seen others do it).

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In my experience the modelling of contact and friction between plane and ground is not correct.

However, if you have problems with the German planes and differential braking, map the brakes the allied way with one button for brakes and apply differential with rudder input.

This way it works even on Stalingrad map that is far worse in this aspect in winter especially compared to any other map. It's not historical but this is a "combat simulator" and if You want a simulator for real go for X-plane that is certified FAA for training.

 

Also put in maximum right rudder trim on the Bf110, for some estrange reason this also helps.

Edited by 1./ZG1_Goblin

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When you brake to make a turn, brake in the other direction before you complete the turn. Play with this technique a bit and you will learn how much to anticipate the opposite braking to the turn.

 

You can also practice adjusting left and right throttle to keep you on track, but that's harder to do without experience.

 

Some notes on taxi controls (and flaps) for various planes from http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/page-3?do=findComment&comment=313202:

 

  • Free tail wheel which is drawn to the center position by springs (LaGG-3, La-5, Pe-2, He-111, Bf-110);
  • Tail wheel that can be locked from cockpit (Yak-1, IL-2, Ju-87, Bf-109, MC-202);
  • Tail wheel that can be locked by pulling the flight stick (Fw-190);
  • Tail wheel linked to pedals by spring rods (I-16);
  • Tail wheel linked to pedals by spring rods that automatically unlinks at significant pedal application (P-40);
  • Tail wheel linked to pedals by spring rods that automatically fixes at neutral position at small pedal application (MiG-3)

Personally, I find the Yak-1 very hard to taxi with unlocked tailwheel (to zig-zag for clearing path ahead) but other planes are fine. I now leave the tailwheel locked in the Yak-1 and I can still make small direction changes with rudder and brake.

Think the Yak is not made for zig-zagging. rather stick your head out of the canopy :)

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For OKL planes that have auto prop pitch I highly advice to disengage it and use 100% PP (like having 1st gear in a car) until you are lined up on the runway, after this engage auto PP again. This will help you because pitch will not change (thus speed) after few seconds with throttle open so you have better control.

 

For those that dont have pedals, or pedals without brakes, map left/right brakes to rudder so you brake with it while you turn. (Not a bad idea to set the bigest possible dead zone at the begining of the brakes axis, so small inputs wont press the brake)

Edited by KG200_Volker
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To me the secret as always been low speeds, no brutal use of the throttle/RPM and constant use of brakes and rudder.

Edited by Hauggy
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You can beat around this bush all you want Gents, but something is totally off in the ground physics, and has been since day one, and not only for taxi, but take off and especially landing as well.

 

Just because you can learn to do it does not make it correct.  In this case harder is most definitely not more real.

 

It almost feels like the old "slip on a banana peel" canned stalls in original IL2.  Best example is landing a 109, start to see a slight move to the right after rolling out so apply FULL left rudder and FULL left brake, and the plane still ground loops right at the end of the landing roll out.

 

The game engine "sees" that you are a couple kph over what is programmed as the optimum speed for either landing or taxi, and it just initiates the spin cycle script and off you go.

 

Real world pilots have commented several times that this is in no way correct, and each time the hard core here and the devs, just discount their observations and let the rabble loose with the torches and pitchforks to run off the "heretics".

 

TOGPharoah, I feel your frustration here, many do, but don't expect a change.

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Have to agree with you BlitzPig. If real planes were as skittish on the ground (including landing like some of our current stable are) I would have dreaded each real life landing and subsequent taxiing instead of anticipating a greaser.

 

I have found (in game) I have much better control taxiing if I leave the tail wheel locked.

 

In real life taxiing takes no more thought than driving a car, it's just something you do without thinking about it - not so in game.

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I also thought that the tailwheel maybe got too little drag (would help straighten out) and the brakes have too little force (it's quite hard to nose over actually..). Also tires might have a little too much grip on sidewards movements which would make the plane more prone to breaking out. Other than that there is not much magic going on than forces that come and play together.

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Can't comment on the realism since I do not have high-performance tail dragger (or pilot for that matter) experience.

 

On the aircraft I fly enough to know well, all I've seen on the LaGG-3 and La-5 suggests that they were prone to ground loops and other nasty tendencies including a wheel leg retracting during less-than-perfect landings, and in the beginning of Only Old Men Go To War (available in English, great movie) there is some news-reel footage of an La-5 landing, bouncing then doing a spin when it tries to stop. An interesting bit that is modelled is a well-known tendency on the LaGG-3 to try and roll right after take-off - it's nearly killed me a few times.

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Could it just be that Taildraggers, though being great for performance, are just bitchy to taxi at more than walking pace and there is no definite answer except GO SLOW and react quickly. 

Also: Not too much power and keep the stick pulled, so you don't nose over. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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I Agree as well the taxiing is borked.  I am have been flying for 20 some odd years in everything from helicopters to tail draggers and this model is way off.  There seems to be two issues.

 

1.  The collision modeling/ interaction between the ground and the AC is over exaggerated.  There is way to much rebound resulting in that bouncing effect when you land or taxi.

 

2.  It almost seems like the CG is too far aft when taxiing.  Typically you want the main gear as close to the CG (Center of Gravity),  as possible,especially on a tail dragger so you can pitch up or down while rolling on the gear.  Additionally due to physics, this will cause the plane will want to roll with the mains leading.  What I see is the aircraft acting like the the CG is closer to the tail wheel.  

 

The force moving the AC is being applied at the prop, if you think if a toy plane connected a string tied to the prop, and you were to pull it along the floor. The only time the toy could be allowed to spin is when the force comes off the string.

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You can beat around this bush all you want Gents, but something is totally off in the ground physics, and has been since day one, and not only for taxi, but take off and especially landing as well.

 

Just because you can learn to do it does not make it correct.  In this case harder is most definitely not more real.

 

It almost feels like the old "slip on a banana peel" canned stalls in original IL2.  Best example is landing a 109, start to see a slight move to the right after rolling out so apply FULL left rudder and FULL left brake, and the plane still ground loops right at the end of the landing roll out.

 

The game engine "sees" that you are a couple kph over what is programmed as the optimum speed for either landing or taxi, and it just initiates the spin cycle script and off you go.

 

Real world pilots have commented several times that this is in no way correct, and each time the hard core here and the devs, just discount their observations and let the rabble loose with the torches and pitchforks to run off the "heretics".

 

TOGPharoah, I feel your frustration here, many do, but don't expect a change.

+1  The ground handling regardless of speed is silly.  With minimal power in the FW you can do seemingly endless groundloops.  Hitting a break should have immediate effect and it doesn't in this sim. 

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I do not know about everyone else but the LA-5 gives me a ton of trouble getting it to the runway.

 

The Bf-109 gives me trouble too but not like the LA-5

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Tornado, have you tried it since the last patch? It's been night and day to me ever since.

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Hello all,

 

I've also found that making sure the prop pitch is at 100% (full fine) helps the kites from spinning too much when you make that initial turn from the ramp area.

 

Good hunting,

=CFC=Conky

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2.  It almost seems like the CG is too far aft when taxiing.  Typically you want the main gear as close to the CG (Center of Gravity),  as possible,especially on a tail dragger so you can pitch up or down while rolling on the gear.  Additionally due to physics, this will cause the plane will want to roll with the mains leading.  What I see is the aircraft acting like the the CG is closer to the tail wheel.  

For the German Aircraft the Landing gear was put very far forwards so the aircraft couldn't nose over even under extremely hard braking. Same for the I-16s and Lavochkin types. 

This meant that especially the 109s had trouble with their narrow landing gear, because differential braking wasn't as effective as on the much broader 190 gear. 

The Spits and P-40s on the other hand had the landing gear close to the CG and were absolutely horrible on small, unmaintaned fields and frequently nosed over in the Kuban for example. 

 

CPnlG7JUAAA7KDK.jpg

 

If you have a Piper Cub or something similar, you want the CG close, because a Piper is slow and basically lands at Taxiing Speed. 

This is waht happens when you use the brakes on light taildraggers: 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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I presume a lot of people will enjoy it when P-39s, P-38s and other tricycle gear aircraft show up :)

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Taxiing is my pet peeve in Il-2 BoS/BoM. Especially on the Stalingrad map where ground handling is extremely weird. I have found out that taxiing my Bf 110 as if it was a Russian plane makes it much easier (but I don't even know why it works). Applying wheelbrakes (NOT differential brakes) and rudder makes it turn smoothly. On the Moscow map I can taxi like it should be done though.

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Have to agree with you BlitzPig. If real planes were as skittish on the ground (including landing like some of our current stable are) I would have dreaded each real life landing and subsequent taxiing instead of anticipating a greaser.

 

I have found (in game) I have much better control taxiing if I leave the tail wheel locked.

 

In real life taxiing takes no more thought than driving a car, it's just something you do without thinking about it - not so in game.

Interesting observations from you and others. I also agree that harder does not always mean more realistic. Having no real life flying experienceI must defer to those that do.

Why can`t the Devs get something like this right?

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Having to push much, much lighter gliders out of rough fields and what kind of resistance deep grass has on wheels (for a 220kg aircraft we often need more than 4 people, sometimes a car) and the bumbs they make during that (In a K-13 someone has to lift tail whilst pushing, around 10kg static, and the jolts once dislocated one mates shoulder) showed me that terrain has a massive influence on light aircraft already and the aircraft we have, have much higher ground pressure and should react similarly. 

I guess most of the Motor-Flyers here have never Operated from rough ground and cannot appreciate how much force is actually involved. 

Taildraggers react to the ground A LOT, and the further forward the CG, the more bounce there simply is. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Most people just taxi too fast and don't practice enough. And don't read or watch any instruction on ground handling which isn't easy in the first place.

If you cannot handle the plane on the ground you should not play on servers which require this.

The airfields on WoL look like noob festivals of planes looping and crashing everywhere.

The soft ground effect should be made more severe especially in the snow where it should be impossible to take off. That would fix the buffoonery of people taking off straight from the parking area.

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I am happy for the devs to make any aspect as difficult or complex as they like be it based on reality or a perception of reality.

 

However a lot of people seem to be asking for a solution for this, other than "practise more" or "its just the way it is" - we have real pilots in our group and they wont touch the game because of that aspect - I cant turn them on to it as they are real pilots and I`m a IT geek who plays games so I cannot win the argument.

 

Ignoring those requests seems somewhat strange to me, and makes parts of this sim seem inaccessible - if experiences simmers such as ourselves dont like it, any newcomer is likely to be instantly turned off - surely less sales isnt a good thing (I`m not asking for WarThunder - just options.)

 

My solution is I edit all the missions or my own to ensure runway starts - its either that or my friends dont want to fly (and these arnt newcomers.....)

 

If it weren't for Coconut and his AMAZING MP missions I doubt whether I would have spent 90 hours in the last 14 days playing this sim.  So dont think I`m a hater - just puzzled with some aspects.

 

So my 2p - keep it as it is but give us an option to dampen the ground handling - an OPTION isnt exactly going to ruin the game is it....

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I have no idea how realistic or unrealistic the game is. It's a game. But as such, guaranteed all the "ground handling is too hard" problems are caused by:

1. Not understanding the controls. How the brakes work and how the tail wheel locks or doesn't.

2. Taxiing too fast. Watch real birds at an air show and see if they race around on the ground. The pace should be at the speed of about walking.

3. Not bothering to learn. The best advice is from all the 1940s training films you can find on this forum. "As soon as you start a turn, start stopping it." Is the best piece of advice on there.

4. Insufficient practice. Practice more.

5. Figuring that expertise at other sims counts for anything. In the area of physics "experience" at older sims counts for nothing. Realistically handling WWII sim planes have only been available in this genre since about 2012.

 

There should be a ground handling, takeoff and landing SP mission that "unlocks" Expert multiplayer. Until you pass you can't play on the "Expert" servers. That would be a great way to clean up the demolition derby online.

Edited by SharpeXB
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This is what happens when you have an aircraft on soft, bumpy ground. It digs in. The Airfields in Southern Russia would have been created on old Agricultural Surfaces, so the Comparison holds up. 

The wheels we have on our 3-8 tons aircraft would be considered too small for 1.5 ton cars today. 

If you get off firmed ground, there is a lot of resistance and that wheel suddenly becomes the Fulcrum of your inevitable ground loop. 

And no, they wouldn't prepare 4 Square Kilometres for aircraft, they would be busy enough with the upkeep of the existing firm ground which would be ruined everytime a Squadron would taxi, take-off and land on those small tires, putting large, deep grooves in the runway. 

 

 

Just look at what happens and the Grooves he creates with his 400kg Aircraft. How can you imagine it would be better for heavier aircraft on similar sized wheels?

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Klaus, we are not talking here about digging in to soft/muddy earth, nor are we discussing nosing over due to brake application, or getting stuck off the runway.

 

We are trying to understand the obtuse modeling of the ground handling such that real world pilots with tail dragger experience find the ground handling to be laughable at best.

 

 

It is flat out wrong.  End of story.

 

Whom are we to believe?  Simmers in their basements or men who have actually flown real high performance aircraft?

Edited by BlitzPig_EL
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2. Taxiing too fast. Watch real birds at an air show and see if they race around on the ground. The pace should be at the speed of about walking.

Not quite true. I've seen plenty of aircraft taxiing around our grass strip with 20+ km/h (including biplane tialdraggers). That should be even less troublesome for warbirds because heavier weight means more ground pressure which ensures better traction. Also, WW2 aircraft probably had considerably better shock absorbers than a Cessna or UL improving ground stability.

 

Besides, modern pilots treat those WW2 birds with great caution to help prevserving them.

 

Edit: It isnt always easier to taxi slower. If you taxi at moderate speed (10-15 km/h) the aircraft will go straight easier due to the forward momentum improving it's roll stability. If you go to slow it will break out easier to one direction and you have to work harder (note you definetly should taxy slower around corners).

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Not quite true. I've seen plenty of aircraft taxiing around our grass strip with 20+ km/h (including biplane tialdraggers). That should be even less troublesome for warbirds because heavier weight means more ground pressure which ensures better traction. Also, WW2 aircraft probably had considerably better shock absorbers than a Cessna or UL improving ground stability.

 

Besides, modern pilots treat those WW2 birds with great caution to help prevserving them.

 

Edit: It isnt always easier to taxi slower. If you taxi at moderate speed (10-15 km/h) the aircraft will go straight easier due to the forward momentum improving it's roll stability. If you go to slow it will break out easier to one direction and you have to work harder (note you definetly should taxy slower around corners).

But they no longer Operate from Wartime Style Strips. On a Tarmac Field it's of course possible to taxi much faster. 

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real world pilots with tail dragger experience find the ground handling to be laughable at best.

 

How many players here have handled real WWII aircraft? And not just a "tail dragger". I mean warbird with a giant prop and a 1,700 hp engine.

I haven't. Nor have I handled any real aircraft at all.

When most people talk "realistic" they're making comparisons to other games. Not to the real WWII aircraft they handle.

You also say that above as if the Dev team doesn't have access to real pilots who handle aircraft like this.

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I know the devs flew tail draggers themselves early on to get a feel for it, and a lot of their input comes from pilots old and new like Stepan Mikoyan and Vladimir Barsuk, both very experienced pilots with thousands of flight hours on high-performance aircraft - the former fought in Yakovlev fighters then went all the way to supersonic fighters, the latter regularly takes MiG-3s, I-153 and I-16 for a ride.

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How many players here have handled real WWII aircraft? And not just a "tail dragger". I mean warbird with a giant prop and a 1,700 hp engine.

I haven't. Nor have I handled any real aircraft at all.

When most people talk "realistic" they're making comparisons to other games. Not to the real WWII aircraft they handle.

You also say that above as if the Dev team doesn't have access to real pilots who handle aircraft like this.

You hittin that Nail on the Head like Jesus on the Cross.  

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Nonsense. If SharpeXB had his way the numbers of players would be so small as to make the genre inconsequential... oh, wait...

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It always was small.....if they dumb the game down it will just turn into a crappy arcade game and then die

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1. Not understanding the controls. How the brakes work and how the tail wheel locks or doesn't. 2. Taxiing too fast. Watch real birds at an air show and see if they race around on the ground. The pace should be at the speed of about walking. 3. Not bothering to learn. The best advice is from all the 1940s training films you can find on this forum. "As soon as you start a turn, start stopping it." Is the best piece of advice on there. 4. Insufficient practice. Practice more. 5. Figuring that expertise at other sims counts for anything. In the area of physics "experience" at older sims counts for nothing. Realistically handling WWII sim planes have only been available in this genre since about 2012.

 

This.

 

On a side note, I can pratically go in a rally with the 190 because taxing with it is so easy.

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