Request for a Russian medium bomber

[216th_Cat 1057]

Now I know that 'what comes next?' and 'what planes would you pay for?' have been done to death already, but the Russians really do have a big hole in the bombing department. The Pe-2 has to be jack-of-all-trades; level bomber, dive-bomber, and ground-attack. The Luftwaffe have one level bomber, one level/dive bomber plus the Stuka and Bf110 for ground attack so are well-catered for, but the VVS really needs the DB3-F/Il-4. The SB is the other alternative but that was relegated to night bombing very early on; the TB-3 is fun but highly obsolete and the Pe-8 didn't really have too much impact.

 

So the DB-3F/Il-4 is the best choice; used all through the war and fits both BoS and BoM really well.

Now perhaps it's not commercial enough to release as a standalone; perhaps there's no policy to release standalone aircraft at all, but it IS needed... so perhaps it could be included in whatever scenario comes next? Personally, I like the bombers and would happily buy it, and while we're at it would buy the definitely un-sexy Hs123 and I-153 for BoM as well.

 

Thoughts?

[ShamrockOneFive 3664]

We actually had this specific conversation fairly recently as well. General consensus is yes! We would all like to see a Russian medium/level bomber platform and the IL-4 makes the most sense. Pure conjecture... but if we go to Kursk or Kuban in a follow up scenario then that would be the most likely place to see the IL-4 as it was used in both battles and the Kuban/Black Sea arrangement would mean that we would get the full range of IL-4 options as it served as torpedo bomber in that theatre.

 

We'll see what comes next.

 

If its not the IL-4.... then maybe the Tu-2 or Tu-2S depending on the timeline.

[6./ZG26_Emil 999]

I'd like to see an A-20 Havoc or B-25

[6./ZG26_McKvack 491]

I think the next one should have a bigger than Pe-2 plane for the russians and since a bigger plane takes more time to make as we have seen with the He-111 and Ju-88 so maybe this time give the germans the Ju-52 which make development a bit easier?  

[Nightrise 98]

The Il4 is definitely needed. On a similar note so is the A20 

[ShamrockOneFive 3664]

I think the next one should have a bigger than Pe-2 plane for the russians and since a bigger plane takes more time to make as we have seen with the He-111 and Ju-88 so maybe this time give the germans the Ju-52 which make development a bit easier?

Yes, because the Ju52 is totally a level bomber 

 

If we go further into the timeline then I think in terms of combat aircraft we'll be shifting away from the bombers for the German side as they either continued to press the Ju88A-4 and He111H-6 into service or sometimes gradually stopped using bombers. Secretly I wouldn't mind seeing something obscure like the Ju188.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell 1738]

I'm betting on an Il-4 or A-20 next. Both were widely used and carried torpedoes. Han said a good while ago that developing an Il-4 had a major constraint because of the range that thing had (3,800km!) making a map for it would be a major hassle. I'm sure if Kuban or Kursk come it will be on the table though. The A-20 has a shorter range but its payload is smaller even if bigger than the Pe-2's. Both could ferry torpedoes.

[Brano 1469]

Yes for Db-3/Il-4. Workhorse of VVS operational throughout the war. SB is not medium bomber.It was "fast bomber" design representative of late 30s. It's bombload is rather unimpressive same as its survivability. Interesting option would be Ar-2 ,its further modification as dive bomber,which could drop bombs in dive from bomb bay thus not limiting itself only to external racks like Pe-2.

[Finkeren 6032]

IL-4 no question.

[YoYo 600]

IL-4 no question.

 

+1 

 

 

[6./ZG26_McKvack 491]

Yes, because the Ju52 is totally a level bomber 

 

If we go further into the timeline then I think in terms of combat aircraft we'll be shifting away from the bombers for the German side as they either continued to press the Ju88A-4 and He111H-6 into service or sometimes gradually stopped using bombers. Secretly I wouldn't mind seeing something obscure like the Ju188.

You totally missed my point.

 

Its not like the 111 and the Pe-2 shares much in common as well. What I meant was that instead of a new german bomber which takes a lot of time to do and if they are going to create a russian big bomber as well it will take a lot of time. Not if the devs wants to keep the development time down, making the Ju-52 flyable is probably easier than creating a new big aircraft for the germans. Also it could be a great start with paratroopers and such and maybe the plane-set after will give the allies a paratrooper plane. 

 

Maybe something new like cargo or paratroopers being able to capture bridges, villages, airfields, supply depots would give something new to the game than the usual just bombing. Also it would be completely new on the market since no SIM game got paratrooper action on a detailed level

 

Sorry for bad English. Pretty tired atm

[ShamrockOneFive 3664]

You totally missed my point.

 

Its not like the 111 and the Pe-2 shares much in common as well. What I meant was that instead of a new german bomber which takes a lot of time to do and if they are going to create a russian big bomber as well it will take a lot of time. Not if the devs wants to keep the development time down, making the Ju-52 flyable is probably easier than creating a new big aircraft for the germans. Also it could be a great start with paratroopers and such and maybe the plane-set after will give the allies a paratrooper plane. 

 

Maybe something new like cargo or paratroopers being able to capture bridges, villages, airfields, supply depots would give something new to the game than the usual just bombing. Also it would be completely new on the market since no SIM game got paratrooper action on a detailed level

 

Sorry for bad English. Pretty tired atm

 

I got the point. But here's the issue.... the He111 and Pe2 are both bombers on some level while comparing the Ju52 and the IL-4 or some other medium bomber is not a similar comparison.

 

IF the Devs decide to release a Ju52 flyable (and I'm not saying they shouldn't) at some point in the future I would hope that its an extra rather than part of the 8+2 arrangement we've seen to date. I see the point about modeling resources but I don't think it plays that well with the desire for combat aircraft.

Edited April 17, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[7.GShAP/Silas 490]

I got the point. But here's the issue.... the He111 and Pe2 are both bombers on some level while comparing the Ju52 and the IL-4 or some other medium bomber is not a similar comparison.

 

IF the Devs decide to release a Ju52 flyable (and I'm not saying they shouldn't) at some point in the future I would hope that its an extra rather than part of the 8+2 arrangement we've seen to date. I see the point about modeling resources but I don't think it plays that well with the desire for combat aircraft.

 

 

The real point is that the Axis currently have the leg up on the bombing front with the 87, 110, 111 and 88.  If anyone gets another bomber, it should be the Soviets.

 

EDIT:   Of course a flyable(or even just AI trigger deployed) Ju-52 with paratroopers would be a great step in the right direction for bringing a deeper "big picture" element into the sim.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Silas

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell 1738]

Il-2s to clear the frontline positions, Pe-2s to destroy the enemy artillery and front stockpiles, and Il-4s to strike the rear areas.

 

After that, roll in the T-34s!

[ShamrockOneFive 3664]

The real point is that the Axis currently have the leg up on the bombing front with the 87, 110, 111 and 88.  If anyone gets another bomber, it should be the Soviets.

 

EDIT:   Of course a flyable(or even just AI trigger deployed) Ju-52 with paratroopers would be a great step in the right direction for bringing a deeper "big picture" element into the sim.

 

Assuming the devs keep with the 8+2 lineup and assuming that they push further into the war... I'm guessing that the next aircraft lineup may not even have a German bomber seeing as the key versions are available. If anything I can see a Kursk/Kuban/etc. getting a Bf110G-2 in place of something larger seeing as the Ju88A-4 and He111H-6 soldiered on well into 1944. We'll hopefully see some more attack oriented aircraft.

 

I understand the desire for the bigger picture type aircraft but I see that as a niche within a greater niche we call PC flight combat simulators. I think there should be some catering to it but not within the 8+2 arrangement.

 

Back to the original point of this thread... I think we all agree. Let's see that IL-4 for the Russian side

Edited April 17, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[GridiroN 194]

+1 

 

 

This plane is gorgeous. And looks like an easy fly and touch down...if this enters the game, I can't wait!

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell 1738]

If you have the old Il-2 installed you can give it a go there.

 

It's such a wonderful bomber. The handling characteristics are very docile, it's actually pretty agile for its size, it can carry anything from a 2000kg bomb to torpedoes, its top speed is good and it boasts a pretty decent climb rate (superior to the He-111 and Ju-88, slightly worse than the Pe-2). Every now and then I still go on a server on the old Il-2 and take it up for a 4000m bombing run. It's a joy to fly.

[6./ZG26_5tuka 1863]

The IL-4 was actually quite tricky to fly and disliked by it's pilots. The issues were cured out with the IL-6, which however was not to see mass production.

 

Still I agree it would be nicer to have a "proper" bomber for the VVS insteda of more Peshka variants. Moscow was obviously on tight scedule so their choice to use BoS plane variants was reasonable, but for the future I hoep we'll see more different types rather than subvariants of already exisitng aircraft to bring more variety into the game.

The real point is that the Axis currently have the leg up on the bombing front with the 87, 110, 111 and 88.  If anyone gets another bomber, it should be the Soviets.

That's not how the planeset design phylosophy works though. Each Planeset must be designed symetrically to feauture direct competitors with compareable performence. Even though I wouldn't mind an asymetrical planeset too much (if it's within reaosnable limits) others may feel disadvantaged.

 

Anyway, the Ju-52 was a Behelfsbomber from the Spanish Civil war up to France 1940 if that counts

 

Edit: A nice counterpart for the IL-4 would be either the Do-17 or the Ju-86. Both feauture moderate bomb capcity and defensive armarment and should not outperform the IL-4.

Edited April 17, 2016 by 5tuka

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell 1738]

Interesting, what I've read says crews loved it ever since the DB-3 days and even if the handling was slightly worsened with the DB-3F it remained pleasant. Them pilots and their opinions

 

The Do-17 and Ju-86 would be fun, but perhaps too outclassed by 1943, no? A Do-217 would be a good addition for that period though.

 

I think if you give the bomber chaps a Soviet level bomber with good payload, you could add a B-52 for the Luftwaffe and they would still be happy so long as they have one bomber of their own

[seafireliv 362]

Personally, I`d love to see the crazy TB3 again wobble into the skies, especially with 2 I16s under the wing, but I wouldn`t say no to seeing an SB.

[ShamrockOneFive 3664]

 

Edit: A nice counterpart for the IL-4 would be either the Do-17 or the Ju-86. Both feauture moderate bomb capcity and defensive armarment and should not outperform the IL-4.

 

Both of those bombers were obsolete during the time periods were talking about. The Do-17 successor, the Do-217, wouldn't be a bad idea in terms of historical service. Its forgotten about but in the 1944-45 range the Me410A-1/B-1 was the 'light bomber' that replaced worn out Ju-88s and He111s in squadron service. It'd be very asymmetrical but perhaps interesting.

 

If we want the Do-17 then we have to go back to the Battle of Britain perhaps

[6./ZG26_5tuka 1863]

Interesting, what I've read says crews loved it ever since the DB-3 days and even if the handling was slightly worsened with the DB-3F it remained pleasant. Them pilots and their opinions

I might be wrong there as it's just from my memory and not any specific literature (might have been one of those Wings of Russia docus). Either way I'd welcome it and figure out how well it handles on my own.

Both of those bombers were obsolete during the time periods were talking about. The Do-17 successor, the Do-217, wouldn't be a bad idea in terms of historical service. Its forgotten about but in the 1944-45 range the Me410A-1/B-1 was the 'light bomber' that replaced worn out Ju-88s and He111s in squadron service. It'd be very asymmetrical but perhaps interesting.

 

If we want the Do-17 then we have to go back to the Battle of Britain perhaps

Yes, they were obsolete by than but remember the IL-4 is not a great medium bomber, either (bomb capacity has been suspended for extendet range since it was designed to be a strategic bomber primarily). If you take a Do-217 inplace of one of my mentioned models people will cry out inbalance.

 

At leats the Ju-86 is historical since the Luftwaffe lacked the aimed number of bombers for the beginning of Barbarossa and thus used the Ju-86 for bombing, reconissence and suplpy flights in the early phase.

 

Personally I dont consider the Me-410 a bomber nor a fair competitor for sth like the IL-4.

Edited April 17, 2016 by 5tuka

[19te.Deafbee 80]

Man that IL4 looks sexy. That is a true beuaty. 

[216th_LuseKofte 3704]

The DO 17 was really not obsolete, it just got outed by the JU 88 . Finnish airfare made very good use of them most of the war. I would really love to see a Dornier in this game. But I agree , a IL 4 would be the fair first built. And I would really not care what the Germans got next. I would fly my IL 4 happily against a ME 262 or 163 if I had to 

[ShamrockOneFive 3664]

The DO 17 was really not obsolete, it just got outed by the JU 88 . Finnish airfare made very good use of them most of the war. I would really love to see a Dornier in this game. But I agree , a IL 4 would be the fair first built. And I would really not care what the Germans got next. I would fly my IL 4 happily against a ME 262 or 163 if I had to

 

Obsolete was the wrong word to use. I'm thinking about aircraft in service in 1943 at say the Battle of Kursk.

 

Pretty sure that if you gave the Finnish a trebuchet in World War II they would have made very good use of it

 

Some sort of Dornier in this series would be excellent!

[Dakpilot 2185]

As much as I would like to see an IL-4, the A-20 makes more sense, it  saw a lot of versatile service on Eastern front but also in Med/Desert, Europe and Pacific 

 

It would really add more value to the 'planeset' if other theaters will come

 

Plus I really like them 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Turban 119]

At this point I just want to know how big are its biggest bombs. The VVS need bigger bombs. Size matters !

 

But yeah it's pretty. Wasn't that plane disguised as a japanese one before PF ?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell 1738]

The TB-7 (Pe-8) could carry a FAB-5000 by 1943. The DB-3 could take a single FAB-2000 I believe, or two-three FAB-1000s, all on the fuselage. The A-20 was also loaded with FAB-1000s at times.

 

That being said I am under the impression that 100 and 250kg were still the main payload, as per Il-2 and Pe-2.

[216th_Jordan 1283]

Why not a Tu-2?

 

Its fast, it can carry more than 3 tons of bombs (even torpedobomb if I'm not mistaken) and has a good connon armament. also it was a beast to fly with those powerful engines.

[II./JG77_Manu* 907]

Why not a Tu-2?

 

Its fast, it can carry more than 3 tons of bombs (even torpedobomb if I'm not mistaken) and has a good connon armament. also it was a beast to fly with those powerful engines.

We would need an end war scenario for the Tu-2. I think most people in here don't want that

Edited April 18, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[7.GShAP/Silas 490]

We would need an end war scenario for the Tu-2. I think most people in here don't want that

 

 

The Tu-2 passed combat tests in 1942.  Mass delivery to operational units did not start until the latter part of the war, but I was under the impression that it was present in small numbers before.  The developers have previously shown willingness to include aircraft that would be an enjoyable addition though not technically present in the given scenario(or in negligible numbers) .

Edited April 18, 2016 by Silas

[ShamrockOneFive 3664]

I like the idea of the Tu-2 but I was hoping for it when we get to Berlin and we get an extra powerful Tu-2S.

[Asgar 1371]

I have to say i would be very interested to see some heavier models for both sides. He-177 and Pe-8 would be amazing. I think both are beautiful designs and would make flying bombers even more interesting

Edited April 19, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell 1738]

I had an obsession with the Pe-8 back when the first Il-2 came out. That defensive armament was impressive, it could drop that FAB-5000 which exploded and took out all the aircraft within 1-2km from the blast site, and it was resistant as well.

 

Not sure how useful they would be in the sim as it is though, weren't they used for long-range night bombing?

[6./ZG26_5tuka 1863]

Heavy bombers have close to none use in a sim of this scale. Just imagine people taking such a monster out with 10% fuel gunshipping at low altitude.

 

Different story if we had big strzegic targets and realistic Flak threats forcing bombers to get up high. But than flight times will limit the usefullness of such aircraft significantly.

Edited April 19, 2016 by 5tuka

[Asgar 1371]

gunshipping? this is not War Thunder. I don't think any bomber in this game would be able to do that. Also i think Flak in this game can be very dangerous if used correctly, but we shouldn't overestimate the usefulness of high altitude flak either. yes many bombers were shot down over Germany. but those were formations of 200 400 or more bombers in tight formations. the Flak will hit something at some point

 

all i want to say is, both are really nice designs in my opinion. and they would add something new to the sim. we have a quite limited plane set right now and it would be nice to have something different instead of another Pe-2 or another Ju-88

Edited April 19, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell 1738]

something different instead of another Pe-2 or another Ju-88

 

Like a Pe-3?

 

I think the best additions within the tactical scope of flight simulators will be aircraft like the Il-4, A-20, Hs-129, Hs-123, Su-2, I-153 and Fw-189. These were by and large the bulk of tactical aircraft employed between 1941 and 1943 across the theatres within the Soviet Union after the SB paid the price to stall the Axis' advance. The Chaika, while also used as a fighter, was mostly found in attack regiments (ShAP) by then until replaced with the Il-2 so it fits in nicely.

 

Refined Soviet fighters, American and British fighters (P-39, Hurricane, Spitfire), later iterations of the Bf-109, Fw-190 and Bf-110 and also some more Italian and Romanian aircraft would also diversity the playing field.

 

In this case you could meet anything from a Fw-189 with two Bf-109G-6s covering it directing the artillery to formations of Il-4s covered by P-39s, I-153s hitting flak while Su-2s drop the bombs and MiG-3s above, hoardes of Fw-190s coming in hot for Pe-2s while La-5Fs desperately attempt to cut off their attack and so on.

 

Basically on a hypothetical Server X over Map Y, you would have too many possible combinations of engagements. For bombers and ground attack pilots it would mean having to place your bets on where will the enemy fighters be (i.e. do I take a Hs-129 down low since there are Yak-9s high up? What if there are P-39s at 1500m or I-16s at 500m? Perhaps it's better to take the Ju-88 and dive on the target instead) and the same would go for the fighters. As it is now, I know that there will be Ju-88s and He-111s at 5000m, Pe-2s at 3000m, and Il-2s/Bf-110s at 1500m and less. Similarly, there's always the sneaky I-16 at 1000m, Yak-1s, LaGG-3s and La-5s at 2100m riding that supercharger stage 2, Fw-190s at 2500m, Bf-109s at 3500m and the odd MiG-3 and P-40 at 5000m.

[Asgar 1371]

the He 177 was supposed to dive bomb...i think that's fine     

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell 1738]

Hell Asgar, if the RLM had a say on it they would have put dive brakes on the Kubelwagen

[Asgar 1371]

yeh they would :D

and now stop with your reasonable arguments. nobody needs those. i just want a great flying game that has the He 177 (and no i do not want to go back to playing IL-2 1946   )

Edited April 19, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar