Jump to content
II/JG17_HerrMurf

How do YOU fly the 190.............NOT an FM discussion.

Recommended Posts

Cheers Manfred. I just logged off for the night since it's getting late here but if you're on tomorrow we'll have a few duels!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iv just been flying the 190 recently and all I have is praise for it. I just keep fast around 350 in a shallow climb. I never do any crazy manuvers. I love how u just need to think and it responds. I literally never use more than 20% stick travel. The key is to get a good bounce set up so u can use all of its amazing armament on the first pass. Also you need to be smart about when or not to attack or when to run. If I see an enemy with higher alt than me I put the nose to the ground and extend long before they get close. Also make good use of emergency power on the up zoom and to keep speed in a turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iv just been flying the 190 recently and all I have is praise for it. I just keep fast around 350 in a shallow climb. I never do any crazy manuvers. I love how u just need to think and it responds. I literally never use more than 20% stick travel. The key is to get a good bounce set up so u can use all of its amazing armament on the first pass. Also you need to be smart about when or not to attack or when to run. If I see an enemy with higher alt than me I put the nose to the ground and extend long before they get close. Also make good use of emergency power on the up zoom and to keep speed in a turn.

So the plane is awesome if you have a huge advantage. You can win an encounter like that in every other plane. Even in a 110 if the advantage is big enough:P

In EVERY other situation you better run. Nice that you agree with us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, but the RLM's design spec (i.e. the one the 190 was intended to fill)  wasn't for a stable mate for the 109, was it.  It was for a replacement.  As far as the RLM was concerned, the 190 was expected to replace the 109 over time.  And furthermore, the armament on the pre-production prototypes and even the A-1 was essentially composed of machine guns, not cannon.  The heavy armament everyone goes on about didn't even exist on the fighter when it was being evaluated.  The heavy cannon came later.  And again, it seems a little unusual to take the step of placing an aircraft in full production without having a very good understanding of it's flight characteristics, particularly as those characteristics compare with an existing type, in fact, the very type it was intended to replace.   And lets not forget, these flight characteristics were said, by 1941, to have completely out-class the Mk V Spitfire (except in turn) and be on a par, with the new stop-gap Mk IX Spitfire.  It's also interesting that the RAF claimed that it was the 190 that ran them out of France in '41-42, not the Bf 109 which our experience tells us was by far the more capable fighter.  And although the 190 did have engine teething problems, even after its combat debut, they were certainly no more pronounced than those of the Soviet fighters in met over Russia in '41-'42.   So yeah, weird.

 

I just wonder if maybe the RAF really got it wrong.  I mean sure, they'd been fighting the Luftwaffe since '39 but maybe they just couldn't take it anymore and lost their nerve over France for some reason or maybe it was, in fact, the 109 F series that they were actually afraid of (which they'd been fighting since the end of the BoB) but for propaganda reasons they thought hey, let's say it's really the 190 we're concerned about so the Germans would get all F'd-up and head off down a blind alley.

 

So yeah, I'm just trying to think out of the square here for the moment to try and get my head around this.

 

The 190 was never meant as a replacement for the 109. If it were, it would have been an inline too using a DB engine. It was simply a second iron in the fire, relying on a radial BMW engine, for the same reason German bombers switched to Jumo engines at the start of the war: you couldn't rely on just one vulnerable and limited supply from a singe engine maker.

 

And for all the glory and good press the 190 gets as the "elite" fighter deployed to the "elite" fighter units on the west, in reality there wasn't much truth about the story. The "new German superfighter" was just a good excuse for Fighter Command, which was taking a just as bad and badly one sided trashing from 109Fs in 1941 as it did in 1942 from Focke Wulfs. Read up the numbers from for example Hooton, it was just as bad if not worse... Though both types were superior to the Mark V, primarly because they were much faster, the real problem were poor tactics and the completely senseless strategy of sending fighters over France which the Germans could ambush at will. When 190s shot a good number of Spitfires from a single Squadron, it provided a good excuse why to stop this 2 years of wasting fighters for nothing nonsense.. The German wartime docs read a different story - they simply deployed the 190 to France because its engine was initially too unreliable to permit sorties and widespread deployment over the desert or sea or over the steppes, i.e. the MTO and the eastern front.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the plane is awesome if you have a huge advantage. You can win an encounter like that in every other plane. Even in a 110 if the advantage is big enough:P

In EVERY other situation you better run. Nice that you agree with us.

The 190 is a energy fighter. Always has been always will be. Probably the best B&Z fighter of the war. Not sure what you are trying to do with this plane, but you should stop. Learn to fly it.

 

Your post make no sense in this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I started flying it again last night after some of the guys said there were a few more tweaks to the FM and I'm pretty happy at the moment.

 

I know its probably been hammered in for ages but the FW190 is a great team plane and it works well if you envision the entire attack run from beginning to end of the run. In a 109 or a Yak I tend to fly reactively - I target the enemy aircraft and I position myself for the killing shot but if he changes course then I change course to match and again line up for the killing shot. In a FW190 you don't fly that way (I know it sounds confusing, bear with)... You anticipate two or three possible moves the target could make, position for most of those and go for the shot. If an unanticipated action is made then you break off and position for the next run. In a frenzied dogfight environment the best possible move in the FW190 has always been to play strategically and play the long game.

 

The 109 is like a sharp knife. The 190 is like a hammer. I don't remember where I read that but I've taken that to heart.

 

One more thing... I haven't done this in BoS yet but back in the IL-2 Forgotten Battles days when the FW190A-4 and A-5 were very difficult to fly (even compared to recent patches) and you couldn't see over the nose in any way... I used to fly in a couple of "full real" servers and I'd always team up. One of my best memories was a flight of four FW190A-5s flying as a hunting pack (coordinated on TS). We'd spot a furball and engage at high speed and slight altitude advantage. We flew in a pattern with a kind of kill box in front of us. Anything that flew into that was a target. If you hit then you shot to kill and if you missed you kept going because you always wanted to be with the pack. We were always fast enough that the dogfighters wouldn't catch us and their attention was usually distracted so as to make the attack run more difficult to spot.

 

I see no reason why this kind of strategy won't still work.

 

Stay fast, hit hard, play the long game and never get drawn into prolonged fights. The FW190 is there to destroy planes... Not engage in duels.

Beautifully said.  I hope I run into you someday online.  You would be an excellent opponent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 190 is a energy fighter. Always has been always will be. Probably the best B&Z fighter of the war. Not sure what you are trying to do with this plane, but you should stop. Learn to fly it.

 

Your post make no sense in this thread.

 
All fighters are energy fighters, period.
 
Let me tell you that you have a really poor idea of what this plane is/should be able to do, and i guess that this come from your inexperience with it.
 
Read what you say yourself before giving lessons to people.
 
"B&Z fighter"... please...
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, but the RLM's design spec (i.e. the one the 190 was intended to fill)  wasn't for a stable mate for the 109, was it.  It was for a replacement.  As far as the RLM was concerned, the 190 was expected to replace the 109 over time.  And furthermore, the armament on the pre-production prototypes and even the A-1 was essentially composed of machine guns, not cannon.  The heavy armament everyone goes on about didn't even exist on the fighter when it was being evaluated.  The heavy cannon came later.  And again, it seems a little unusual to take the step of placing an aircraft in full production without having a very good understanding of it's flight characteristics, particularly as those characteristics compare with an existing type, in fact, the very type it was intended to replace.   And lets not forget, these flight characteristics were said, by 1941, to have completely out-class the Mk V Spitfire (except in turn) and be on a par, with the new stop-gap Mk IX Spitfire.  It's also interesting that the RAF claimed that it was the 190 that ran them out of France in '41-42, not the Bf 109 which our experience tells us was by far the more capable fighter.  And although the 190 did have engine teething problems, even after its combat debut, they were certainly no more pronounced than those of the Soviet fighters in met over Russia in '41-'42.   So yeah, weird.

 

I just wonder if maybe the RAF really got it wrong.  I mean sure, they'd been fighting the Luftwaffe since '39 but maybe they just couldn't take it anymore and lost their nerve over France for some reason or maybe it was, in fact, the 109 F series that they were actually afraid of (which they'd been fighting since the end of the BoB) but for propaganda reasons they thought hey, let's say it's really the 190 we're concerned about so the Germans would get all F'd-up and head off down a blind alley.

 

So yeah, I'm just trying to think out of the square here for the moment to try and get my head around this.

 

Dead on in my opinion. I think you have nailed it down pretty good: The way you have to fly the current version of the Fw-.190 in BoS , i.e. one or two passes (while being very conservative with your angles) and then you're done does not seem to tab with IRL IMHO. I mean if you were forced to fly for your life, there is no way that I would go to the Fw-190 the way we have it is BoS now: I mean, taking out Yak's and LaGG's with the BoS Me-109 is a cakewalk compared with doing it in the Fw-190.

 

What one perhaps could add is that when the Fw-190 appeared on the channel coast, the RAF pilots who had previously complained that "Jerry" was prone to disengaging when they flew the Me-109 was now  "staying to fight"  it out. Now why on earth would you stick around more like the LW started doing in the Fw-190 if you had traded down like you definitely do in BoS?

 

But in a perverse way that's why I persist in the Fw-190: It requires so much more work but that is of course also why you get so much more satisfaction out of it when it all comes together in the end. However, the way we have it now being more difficult is not necessarily more realistic.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 
All fighters are energy fighters, period.

 

;)

 

This sentence is an indicator that the person who wrote it knows what they are talking about.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh geez,  now you guys are starting to rewrite history to try to increase the drama level a little  :rolleyes:

 

 

In the end you talk about facts and experience, but you have none, and you really only seem interested in making the world feel very sorry for you and your FW 190   :rolleyes:

 

 

I'm out of here, this is pathetic, I just hope the devs aren't following that kind of unreasonnable drama non sense.  :rolleyes:

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

All fighters are energy fighters, period.

 

Let me tell you that you have a really poor idea of what this plane is/should be able to do, and i guess that this come from your inexperience with it.

 

Read what you say yourself before giving lessons to people.

 

"B&Z fighter"... please...

Your cute sentence doesn't make what I wrote wrong. Just because you can and I have B&Z in an A6m2 doesn't mean it flys the same as the 190. Planes are designed to be flown different. If someone can't do well in this 190 the problem is in the mirror. I find it entertaining to read all the whining of some guys.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your cute sentence doesn't make what I wrote wrong. Just because you can and I have B&Z in an A6m2 doesn't mean it flys the same as the 190. Planes are designed to be flown different. If someone can't do well in this 190 the problem is in the mirror. I find it entertaining to read all the whining of some guys.

 

I'll not enter in this debate again. There was a thread, months ago, where i showed to all these guy who talk about "BnZ fighters" how ignorant they are.
 
Look, one of these guys is the one who gave you a +1, guess why. How predictable.
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the end you talk about facts and experience, but you have none, and you really only seem interested in making the world feel very sorry for you and your FW 190   :rolleyes:

 

The silver bars mean you don't own the 190 right? No offense but your opinion is invalid.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'll not enter in this debate again. There was a thread, months ago, where i showed to all these guy who talk about "BnZ fighters" how ignorant they are.

 

Look, one of these guys is the one who gave you a +1, guess why. How predictable.

Off topic,

How do you find out who gave you a plus one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny to see that majority of people here are giving lessons and advises on the FW without flying her on regular basis (even the most talkative do not have the plane, lol). Some have fun flying and learning their mount, others are taking pleasure in the forums, that's life. 

Edited by MadisonV44
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything in this thread is anecdotal anyways...  Not that it gives me any better credibility but I did fly the FW 190 for over a decade in IL2 46 and many of it's incarnations.  What I find very interesting about this particular plane is it gets the most scrutiny when it comes to FMs etc.  Heck how many times did the FM change either through official patches or through the modding community.  Interesting stuff anyways.

 

Bottom line and back OT.  This particular version we have in the game is quite challenging when it comes to fighting the current set of planes.  It's not fast enough to really escape all that easy and she will overheat compared to other aircraft why trying to extend.  Firepower aside it's still a good ride and if you are very careful you can do good things with it.   You have to be very conservative and chose your fights wisely. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, anecdotal and tips/trick for flying her is the absolute aim of the thread. Thanks for getting us back on topic.

 

She is a challenge to fly and that gives a good sense of accomplishment when you find success with her. I absolutely believe there can be improvements and the FM threads will get the DEV's to move the needle again. She was better in many respects before the last patch while remaining closer to historical in performance.

 

Nonetheless, leave your FM arguments at the door please. You can find those elsewhere in the forums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this a fair summary?

1. Trim for improved stability.

2. Very limited input to avoid excessive energy bleed and viscous stall.

3. No attempts to suddenly change direction, otherwise accelerated stall will result.

4. Deaden stick to avoid over control (related to 2 and 3).

5. Always high speed.  Bounce, extend.

6. Shallow climb at 350 KPH minimum to extend.

7. Limit following a target to a very small change in direction.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 190 is a energy fighter. Always has been always will be. Probably the best B&Z fighter of the war. Not sure what you are trying to do with this plane, but you should stop. Learn to fly it.

 

Your post make no sense in this thread.

STOP!!!!!!  Every plane can BaZ! BaZ is just tactic that's all!! Best tactic how to something kill and easy survive. Galland said " When i flew the Fw 190 for the first time, in 1942, I remember  being greatly impresed by its high performance and its beautiful handling characteristics" !!!

Edited by Art

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this a fair summary?

1. Trim for improved stability.

2. Very limited input to avoid excessive energy bleed and viscous stall.

3. No attempts to suddenly change direction, otherwise accelerated stall will result.

4. Deaden stick to avoid over control (related to 2 and 3).

5. Always high speed.  Bounce, extend.

6. Shallow climb at 350 KPH minimum to extend.

7. Limit following a target to a very small change in direction.

 

6. I would say 350 is too low... better 450kph or higher if possible  :)

 

 

Anyone saying that the 190 in current state is okay obviously dont fly it enough, and also who says the plane is unflyable also dont know what he's talking about. Off course you can make the plane work with correct tactics, but that dont exclude the fact that the plane is in an atrocious state right now, close to the 190 in early alpha.

Edited by Herr_Istruba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I pitch for 300 on the extension. Never had a problem with that airspeed for the climb even when pursued. For me it is the best trade of airspeed for altitude.

 

And use curves if you have no joystick extension seems to be a good call. I have no curves ona 10 cm extension.

Edited by [LBS]HerrMurf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6. I would say 350 is too low... better 450kph or higher if possible  :)

 

 

Anyone saying that the 190 in current state is okay obviously dont fly it enough, and also who says the plane is unflyable also dont know what he's talking about. Off course you can make the plane work with correct tactics, but that dont exclude the fact that the plane is in an atrocious state right now, close to the 190 in early alpha.

 

 

I want to stick to the thread creators request that this not become an FM thread, so I just put that out there as an honest effort to summarize 4 pages.  We'll let the debate over whether it SHOULD be like that happen in another thread.

Edited by PatrickAWlson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

STOP!!!!!!  Every plane can BaZ! BaZ is just tactic that's all!! Best tactic how to something kill and easy survive. Galland said " When i flew the Fw 190 for the first time, in 1942, I remember  being greatly impresed by its high performance and its beautiful handling characteristics" !!!

 

 

Just because you can and I have B&Z in an A6m2 doesn't mean it flys the same as the 190. Planes are designed to be flown different. If someone can't do well in this 190 the problem is in the mirror. I find it entertaining to read all the whining of some guys.

Easy to quote myself.  I like that.   ;)

 

Click on the green square itself, or look in the reputation section of your profile.

 

 

Very cool thanks.  Did not know that.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the 190 is so good like people here constantly say I invite you to fight against me and you demonstrate it's capabilities. You take the 190 and I'm gonna take one of the inferior VVS planes, ok. 

 

My invitation is meant serious !

Ready and waiting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

STOP!!!!!!  Every plane can BaZ! BaZ is just tactic that's all!! Best tactic how to something kill and easy survive. Galland said " When i flew the Fw 190 for the first time, in 1942, I remember  being greatly impresed by its high performance and its beautiful handling characteristics" !!!

Yes but anything else but BaZ in a FW means you will lose all things being equal.  Her greatest strengths are firepower and in this version some speed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ready and waiting.

Count me in for one of those 1v1's, will happily fly the inferior yak.

!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny to see that majority of people here are giving lessons and advises on the FW without flying her on regular basis (even the most talkative do not have the plane, lol). Some have fun flying and learning their mount, others are taking pleasure in the forums, that's life. 

 

It's also funny to see self proclaim experts "who fly nothing else" posting when we never see them online :)

 

Maybe the Wartunder 190 can so all kind of cool maneuvers or something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of you might have read my post on it in the FM discussion regarding the "new" FM. For now my advice is to leave it in the hangar until it gets fixed. The current FM is broken to the point where I'd classify it as not airworthy.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saying that the current 190 is okay is the same as saying that the P40 with current engine limitations is okay.  :P

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's also funny to see self proclaim experts "who fly nothing else" posting when we never see them online :)

 

Maybe the Wartunder 190 can so all kind of cool maneuvers or something?

Go to school or buy some books dude you rly dont know nothing.. Old propaganda work ... rly  you are so ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's also funny to see self proclaim experts "who fly nothing else" posting when we never see them online :)

 

Maybe the Wartunder 190 can so all kind of cool maneuvers or something?

 

Emil, no worries, I'm not taking badly what you said. I must admit you're right when saying I not flying so regularly as I used to in the past (e.g : only 42h per month in average on WoL between Sept. and December, 90% on the FW) By the way I didn't saw you so much online in this period ... maybe you came back just after when  I slowed down early January because of the stutters issues we had ? Do you want me to check how much time you spend online in the same period of time, lol ? 

 

And do you know why I 'm flying less and less ? 

 

Just because flying my Wulf became a pain, struggling at each moments to keep control in a hot fight. As a result when your preferred bird you learned to fly "at the edge" for hours and hours changes its FM at every single patch, you become quickly bored of learning it and adapting yourself again and again, and after a while you give up ! That's why I'm not flying anymore BOS, except to test new versions of the FW or have fun from time to time with my fly mates in great campaigns thanks to great guys like Cipson ... 

 

I'll be back in the business on regular basis when I'll be considering that my preferred mount is OK (as it used to be roughly in previous patches)

 

Last thing,  I'm not an expert and did not claim it anyway, nowhere. Just sharing my point of view 

On this one you were not so right man.    

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Emil, no worries, I'm not taking badly what you said. I must admit you're right when saying I not flying so regularly as I used to in the past (e.g : only 42h per month in average on WoL between Sept. and December, 90% on the FW) By the way I didn't saw you so much online in this period ... maybe you came back just after when  I slowed down early January because of the stutters issues we had ? Do you want me to check how much time you spend online in the same period of time, lol ? 

 

And do you know why I 'm flying less and less ? 

 

Just because flying my Wulf became a pain, struggling at each moments to keep control in a hot fight. As a result when your preferred bird you learned to fly "at the edge" for hours and hours changes its FM at every single patch, you become quickly bored of learning it and adapting yourself again and again, and after a while you give up ! That's why I'm not flying anymore BOS, except to test new versions of the FW or have fun from time to time with my fly mates in great campaigns thanks to great guys like Cipson ... 

 

I'll be back in the business on regular basis when I'll be considering that my preferred mount is OK (as it used to be roughly in previous patches)

 

Last thing,  I'm not an expert and did not claim it anyway, nowhere. Just sharing my point of view 

On this one you were not so right man.    

 

I wasn't talking about you :)

 

If people enjoy dogfighting in the 190 then good for them but that's not how things were in WW2....most kills were bounces by aircraft who were in a superior position i.e. faster and higher. It's better to start an engagement higher than the enemy and the 190 is very good in that situation because it has such great high speed manoeuvrability. Anyway I'm just saying it's funny how some people have having major problems and others not so it's clearly down to the flying style. For what it's worth I fly the 190 a lot as well.

 

Anyway these threads are pretty pointless...... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If people enjoy dogfighting in the 190 then good for them but that's not how things were in WW2....most kills were bounces by aircraft who were in a superior position i.e. faster and higher.

 

It's me or this has absolutely no sense ?

 

In Fw 190, as in any other fighter, you accept a dogfight only when you have no other choice i.e. co-altitude or below the bandit.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's me or this has absolutely no sense ?

 

In Fw 190, as in any other fighter, you accept a dogfight only when you have no other choice i.e. co-altitude or below the bandit.

 

So make sure you are never in that situation

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So make sure you are never in that situation

 
What about JaBo pilots ? You think that August Lambert (best JaBo pilot of the war) was "BnZooming" his opponents ?
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 
What about JaBo pilots ? You think that August Lambert (best JaBo pilot of the war) was "BnZooming" his opponents ?

 

 

That's obviously different but you can still make your attack from fairly high altitude and from a direction that ensures you are pointing towards home, hit the target and bug out at high speed.

 

Being in a better position before engaging isn't necessarily B&Z (rope a dope type 109 flying). I'm just saying that if you have an aircraft that is worse that the other at co-altitude/energy then you want to make sure you have every advantage possible...I would think that is obvious.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's obviously different but you can still make your attack from fairly high altitude and from a direction that ensures you are pointing towards home, hit the target and bug out at high speed.

 

Being in a better position before engaging isn't necessarily B&Z (rope a dope type 109 flying). I'm just saying that if you have an aircraft that is worse that the other at co-altitude/energy then you want to make sure you have every advantage possible...I would think that is obvious.

 

Ok enough, i'm done with you.

 

Maybe you should have rather said "I'm just saying that if you are a pilot who's worse than the others at co-altitude/energy then you want to make sure you have every advantage possible".

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok enough, i'm done with you.

 

Maybe you should have rather said "I'm just saying that if you are a pilot who's worse than the others at co-altitude/energy then you want to make sure you have every advantage possible".

 

Back on the whiskey so early?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...