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Yak-3 or Yak-9 or... something able to have a chance dogfighting vs the LW ?

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Hey mighty.

 

A long time ago, during early access, I remember the topic of the Yak 9 was discussed a lot, and a dev showed a photo of a yak 9 cockpit, with some other info, letting suspect they explored and took info about it.

 

No news since then.

 

At first with the others LAL, we had some desperate moments.... When trying to fight LW online.

 

After almost two years on the red side, moral is much better. We learned to set up energy traps tactics, and just avoid any Engagement without a clear energy advantage. The thing is to disengage the sooner possible, evade climb and re engage.

 

Reds fighters are ultimately at disadvantage, but they feel more rewarding.

 

Regarding mig3, it is not bad at dogfighting at all, even pretty good with a good using of combat flaps. In my personal experience, I always start with BnZ with it, and if failed quickly engaging turn fight it does not turn great, but bleed very few energy doing it. You won't have a gunnery solution until 2-4 maneuvers, but ultimately you will if you keep pushing the opponent to turn.

 

But yeah, I understand your feeling pretty well, during heron cendré, sometime we felt really desperate and envious of you in your 109 :)

Thanks a lot Trink for your imput.

 

Yes, i agree with you about Heron Cendré - but i think it was a bit better ballanced than the actual campaign that we are flying because most of the time there was more Russian pilots than Germans and most of the red planes was able to carry bombs (except if you suffered of restrictions ?)  in a campaign where the ground attack was very important.

 

Last wednesday we were 3 or 4 reds covering our Pe-2 at low alt and facing 6 or more Fw / Me-109 F4....  Germans had a lot of fun and we had... a lot of holes :drinks:

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Wrong. The Yak turns better than the 109 and Fw-190, on par / slightly worse than the Emil.

 

If you want some advise hook some expirienced pilots up and fly on an Expert server. Let them show you tactical air combat and you'll soon discover how wrong your impression is.

The things you say are right - but in the story books - it seems "not so" in the game - or, please, tell me the Airspeed, altitude, fuel level and flaps settings a Yak-1 must have in the game  to out turn a Me-109 F4.

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At equal loading the Yak will always outturn the Bf-109 in clean configuration. Mind you outturn means in a continous turnfight. The Bf-109s have a good initial turn rate at speeds above 400 km/h where the Yak tends to get stiffer but they burn a lot of speed with it. After 2-3 turns the Yak has the upperhand.

 

The Yak's flaps were designed for landing, not for dogfights. Pilots who know how and when to use flaps in combat will probably use them  little as possible due to the loss of energy outweighitng the gain in initial turn performence.

 

And before you ask, yes I also fly VVS quite often and have BnZ'd 109s and Fw-190 in my Lagg-3 in the past and been accused to be a hacker because I could outclimb a turning 109 with it.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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That's nonsense. The La-5 is below 2km faster than the Fw-190 and nearly as quick as a the F-4 with 1.42 ata (mind you frosazh can be used longer than the F-4's Notleistung).

 

The Yak has increadible capebilities like one of the best energy rententions, quick acceleration and good low speed manouvrebility. True it's nto as fast as the 109 F and G and climbs worse than the F (at 5km it's very competetive with G) but it has it's trumps in other areas.

 

Whatever some people seem to understand as "balanced" planesets comes down to equal performing machines. That's not how history worked though, like it or not

 

Sorry but if my memory is good, the La-5 was given for an aerage 648 Km/h top speed, the Fw-190 was given for an average 690 Km/h top speed .

 

I could experiment that the Yak wings can easily break when diving behind any LW fighters before than the Lw fighter suffer any problem about a too high speed.

Yes, Yak accelerate better but with a lower top speed, Yes it seems to climb worse so... it can't escape.

 

As you know, at low speed a fighter is an easy target as soon as its opponent have more energy .

 

 

 

Well... anywayn,  i think we go out of topic - The debate was not "what plane is better or not."

The initial question was "Will we have chance to see Yak-3 and 9"... It seems that could be "May be" a Yak-9 on day

and we don't know for the Yak-3

 

 

Best regards

Edited by PB0/KGM_Mighty-8

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We can put more red aircraft in, because the Yak-3 is just so much fun to throw around.

 

Oh hey, can't we throw in the Dora for Yak 3, and then MC 205, Re 2005 and G.55 for the Yak 9, La 5 FN?

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The YAK-9 that we were suppose to have or early model as you call it did turn in 17 secs and you failed mention ts climb rate to

5.1 mins to get to 5kms beating any other old version  YAK on the front.

Sorry to burst your bubble but if a Yak-9 FM was anywhere near as accurate as the ones we have now you won't get that 17s. Maybe there was that one Yak-9 that in that one test did turn in 17s sustained, but shaving 5kg off an aircraft and giving it minimal other changes is not going to improve turn time by 5 seconds (compared to the figure given by the devs for the Yak-1) or even 2 seconds compared to VVS Yak-1 figures. That's just not how physics work, and the FM is based on physics calculations. Not on matching a single figure at all costs. Edited by JtD

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At equal loading the Yak will always outturn the Bf-109 in clean configuration. Mind you outturn means in a continous turnfight. The Bf-109s have a good initial turn rate at speeds above 400 km/h where the Yak tends to get stiffer but they burn a lot of speed with it. After 2-3 turns the Yak has the upperhand.

 

 

I don't agree with most of this.  Just my opinion, and will stay that way untill proved otherwise.

Feels to me you just try hard to make the russians planes sound "incredible" "great" , etc....  ;)

Edited by Turban

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I don't agree with most of this.  Just my opinion, and will stay that way untill proved otherwise.

They are virtually the same in a turn. Turn Times are the same for skilled pilots. Roughly 18.5 Seconds for both. 

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Sorry to burst your bubble but if a Yak-9 FM was anywhere near as accurate as the ones we have now you won't get that 17s. Maybe there was that one Yak-9 that in that one test did turn in 17s sustained, but shaving 5kg off an aircraft and giving it minimal other changes is not going to improve turn time by 5 seconds (compared to the figure given by the devs for the Yak-1) or even 2 seconds compared to VVS Yak-1 figures. That's just not how physics work, and the FM is based on physics calculations. Not on matching a single figure at all costs.

 

What's with trying to bash the Yak9 ? It got more then "5kg off and minimal changes" and was aknowledged as a great improvement of a fighter, so.... why try to bash it??? 

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Only VVS fighter available now and nearly (but not completely) touching the very definition of "being competitive" is Yak-1. Though interesting and kind of fun to fly,LaGG-3,La-5 and P-40 are not competitive.Let's not fool ourselves.

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I still say devs left it out it was too goodagainst the 109 and the 190

After all the claims that the devs were biased towards VVS and now it turns out they were just doing the 109s a favor :)

 

Frankly i dont think they are trying to do anything other than to simulate the most accurate FMs to the extent of their ability and resources.

  • Upvote 3

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Yak-1/3 development line comes from I-26 prototype of single-seat fighter. Yak-7/9 development line is different/unique one coming from UTI-26 prototype of two-seater advanced trainer.While the former line was focused on developing "antimesser" by streamlining and weight reduction,the latter was more design friendly for developing more versatile/universal fighter. 2nd pilot of trainer design could be replaced by either additional fuel tanks (9D and DD models) or by internal bomb compartment (9B).

Competitive for VVS starts with La-5FN (late 1943),Yak-3 (summer 44) and La-7 (late 44).

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Hi,

Does somebody know if Yak-3 or Yak-9 VVS fighters will be available soon in BOS/BOM to offer the Russians pilots a chance to challenge seriously the LW fighters before to be borrowed to act as some easy moving targets for their FW-190, Me-109 F4 ,F2 and E ?

 

On one hand the Russian pilots have only ONE fighter that can fly above the 600 Km/h (the Mig-3) and even if it's a good B&Zoomer, it's not what we can call a good plane for dogfighting.

On the other hand, all the German fighters are at least 70Km/h faster than the Red fighters... That's not fair, imho.

 

Thanks

Last time i got into a YAK-1 i made 13 kills vs 3 deaths. And that with hardly any experience in this plane. There is really not much you can do wrong in it.

If you cant be successful in the plane its most likely not because of the plane.

Edited by StG2_Winger
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Last time i got into a YAK-1 i made 13 kills vs 3 deaths. And that with hardly any experience in this plane. There is really not much you can do wrong in it.

If you cant be successful in the plane its most likely not because of the plane.

 

I think your tone is slightly too agressive ;)

 

That's a great K/D ratio .. where did it happen ? Do you have some unedited footage ? Do you think you could do it again? Those are interesting questions.   :rolleyes:

 

Too bad we can't just stick to the original topic. Yes, having new Yaks from that time period would be awesome, and probably bring some relief to the russian flying people. It's well deserved after seeing so mamy FW 190 A3 around..

Edited by Turban

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I see.... just checked WoL, he tried to fly russian once in October, and got only 8 kills in 8 different sorties and.... never came back.... So yeah... that big aggressive statement about how awesome he is with the yak and "how anyone not being excellent are no skillz noobs" is to take with a pinch of salt....

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-snip-

 

Feels to me you just try hard to make the russians planes sound "incredible" "great" , etc....   ;)

 

Seems to me you just try hard to make the Russian planes sound "horrible," "disadvantaged," etc.

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Seems to me you just try hard to make the Russian planes sound "horrible," "disadvantaged," etc.

Nope, I  actually said they were more interesting but not competitive ;) Nuance ;)

I quoted "incredible" because that's what was said, and the yak can hardly be defined has having anything "incredible" ;) I was underlining the hyperbole. I didn't make any myself ;)

Edited by Turban

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I have never said it was increadible. If you can't even stand an open discussion of your limited judgment pls don't also lie about people.

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What's with trying to bash the Yak9 ? It got more then "5kg off and minimal changes" and was aknowledged as a great improvement of a fighter, so.... why try to bash it???

Just a reality check, not a bashing. Feel free to elaborate on the changes that would improve turn time as much you think it was. Edited by JtD
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The early version of the Yak-9 (or Yak-7 Late) is only subtly better than the Yak-1 that we've got. It'll be great to have a Yak-9 in there somewhere later on but its not going to change the fight in any appreciable manner. And as JtD says... Until the Yak-3 arrives in 1944 you won't be seeing a better dogfighter on the Russian side than the already excellent Yak-1. The later La-5 models get quite a bit more refined as time goes on.

 

Wanting these types because the are really interesting to fly is definitely up my alley. But the Russian side already has some very good types that are maybe not quite as good as their German counterparts in all ways (and the 109 is extremely well balanced as a fighter in this time period) but each of them have strong points that you can definitely exploit as a pilot.

 

If its not working out... Try new tactics and positioning. The plane is the last issue.

 

 

and they are all (Yak-9, Yak-7) going to look just like a Yak in your gunsight.  You'll never really know what your fighting unless you ask over chat...so the scenery remains the same for the Germans. 

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I have never said it was increadible. If you can't even stand an open discussion of your limited judgment pls don't also lie about people.

Post #41

Just a reality check, not a bashing. Feel free to elaborate on the changes that would improve turn time as much you think it was.

Weight reduction, weight displacement, wing shape,.. all thing the Yak9 had and all things that could help. No need to elaborate more since for now it's just a dream ;)

and they are all (Yak-9, Yak-7) going to look just like a Yak in your gunsight.  You'll never really know what your fighting unless you ask over chat...so the scenery remains the same for the Germans. 

That's... not what Germans pilots used to say about yaks...

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Weight reduction, weight displacement, wing shape,.. all thing the Yak9 had and all things that could help. No need to elaborate more since for now it's just a dream ;)

Minimal weight reduction, if any, depending on the series compared, weight distribution not having a significant impact on sustained turn performance, wing shape unchanged or changed wing tip shape depending on series and submodel with no or minimal impact on turn again.

 

You need to considerably reduce weight, considerably increase power/thrust (more powerful engine, more efficient prop), considerably increase lift (larger wing, different air foil) or considerably reduce induced drag (larger wingspan, different air foil, more elliptical wing) - compared to the Yak-1, the Yak-9 had none of that.

 

What it had was a more pleasant handling, which probably won't translate very well into the game, and better looks, which probably will translate very well into the game. It also had some features like a more reliable landing gear, which will be irrelevant in game. All in all it will be very nice to have, but it won't be a game changer.

Edited by JtD

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The YAK-9 that we were suppose to have or early model as you call it did turn in 17 secs and you failed mention ts climb rate to

5.1 mins to get to 5kms beating any other old version  YAK on the front.

 

Its funny how over the years every thing I seen the VVS pilots prefered the YAK-9 plane considering it one of the best

excluding the YAK-3

 

With experienced pilots like we have in this game and the correctly modeled values 109's would be in terrible trouble

I still say devs left it out it was too goodagainst the 109 and the 190

 

Yep, 5.1 minutes instead of 6 minutes. Like I said... the Yak-9 is an improvement in nearly every way but its not a game changer.

 

I'm pretty sure they left it out because the first of the Yak-9s arriving on the front were more towards the end of the Stalingrad campaign. With a 8+2 plane arrangement they really had only two choices: The later models of Yak-1 OR the later models of the Yak-7B.

 

I'm sure we'll see the Yak-9 sometime later when it became the bread and butter of the VVS fighter service.

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I see.... just checked WoL, he tried to fly russian once in October, and got only 8 kills in 8 different sorties and.... never came back.... So yeah... that big aggressive statement about how awesome he is with the yak and "how anyone not being excellent are no skillz noobs" is to take with a pinch of salt....

 

Thanks for that.  I helps to put things in their proper perspective. 

Gives me a good laugh too! 

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Yep, 5.1 minutes instead of 6 minutes. Like I said... the Yak-9 is an improvement in nearly every way but its not a game changer.

 

I'm pretty sure they left it out because the first of the Yak-9s arriving on the front were more towards the end of the Stalingrad campaign. With a 8+2 plane arrangement they really had only two choices: The later models of Yak-1 OR the later models of the Yak-7B.

 

I'm sure we'll see the Yak-9 sometime later when it became the bread and butter of the VVS fighter service.

 

It won't be a game changer in the way early yak 9 won't bring utter domination for sure, but it will be a game changer in the way that even little improvements would be a great "quality of life" relief for russian pilots, just the idea of having a bubble canopy with better rear visibility is like a dream to me.

And the Yak 9 definitely belongs to the Stalingrad's skies, more than the FW 190 A3  ;)

Anyway, it's just conjecture so far so I won't hold my breath over this   :happy:

Edited by Turban

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If we will ever get to Kuban in this game,I'm sure we will get either Yak-1b or Yak-9.They are a must for any 43/44 scenario.

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Yep, 5.1 minutes instead of 6 minutes. Like I said... the Yak-9 is an improvement in nearly every way but its not a game changer.

 

I'm pretty sure they left it out because the first of the Yak-9s arriving on the front were more towards the end of the Stalingrad campaign. With a 8+2 plane arrangement they really had only two choices: The later models of Yak-1 OR the later models of the Yak-7B.

 

I'm sure we'll see the Yak-9 sometime later when it became the bread and butter of the VVS fighter service.

I will take those improvements and the American grade aviation fuel they received from the lend-lease

program in that period

 

It is not a game changer for this sim it will suit my flying style perfectly

to try and get the 109's to turn fight and run. 

 

There was not much of a VVS campaign during the months of November 1942 to end of  January 1943.

 

There was pretty well just German planes in the Stalingrad skies with the Russian bombers conducting

little night bombing sorties.

 

Russians were receiving and stocking aviation fuel and ammo for the major counter-offensive.

 

When the VVS counter attacked at the start of February they had everything they needed with

lend-lease US aviation fuel and ammunition and were numerically superior to the Luftwaffe.

 

It won't be a game changer in the way early yak 9 won't bring utter domination for sure, but it will be a game changer in the way that even little improvements would be a great "quality of life" relief for russian pilots, just the idea of having a bubble canopy with better rear visibility is like a dream to me.

And the Yak 9 definitely belongs to the Stalingrad's skies, more than the FW 190 A3  ;)

Anyway, it's just conjecture so far so I won't hold my breath over this   :happy:

I am just saying in competent pilots hands the 109 pilots would be in for a big surprise

with the YAK-9.

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I don't know Winger but it seems throwing up his stats out of context is a bit of an ad hominem attack. He didn't say he did that yesterday, on a particular server or typically flys VVS AC. Based on his sig I would expect him to be a Luftie.

 

Did he have any deaths in the aforementioned eight kill scenario? His stated 13:3 seems both reasonable and respectable.

 

As for the Yak-9, it might actually get me into a Russian crate as it's the first attractive airframe on that side of the front (sorry Yak-3 lovers).

 

Id also fly the P-40 if it wasn't such a dog but it is what it is.

Edited by [LBS]HerrMurf

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There was not much of a VVS campaign during the months of November 1942 to end of  January 1943.  

 

There was pretty well just German planes in the Stalingrad skies with the Russian bombers conducting little night bombing sorties.

 

 

Huh?

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I don't know Winger but it seems throwing up his stats out of context is a bit of an ad hominem attack. He didn't say he did that yesterday, on a particular server or typically flys VVS AC. Based on his sig I would expect him to be a Luftie.

 

Did he have any deaths in the aforementioned eight kill scenario? His stated 13:3 seems both reasonable and respectable.

 

As for the Yak-9, it might actually get me into a Russian crate as it's the first attractive airframe on that side of the front (sorry Yak-3 lovers).

 

Id also fly the P-40 if it wasn't such a dog but it is what it is.

I could tell you that I have a 3:1 K/D in my I-16 against Fw190s and Bf109s. There will always be those Newbs that try and turnfight on the Deck with you, without a clue of how to set your Bf109 or Fw190 up to turn. The 109s can quite easily turn with everything VVS once you know how, and the Fw190 turns very well too against everything but Yaks and Il-2s. 

It's not hard to be good in the Yak if you approach with absolute Sisu.

 

The Yak-9 makes my Fizzy Thing Fizz in the James May way. It's a beautiful machine, but I really want the Yak-9T and go Head-On with Stuff. 

 

I think the Devs know that the P-40 can do more, and I think at some point we will see more. The Problem is in the Way the Manuals and Limits are given for the Engine, and we have Wartime Operations Manuals that give much higher Limits, and thus more Endurance in Combat.

It will get better, I trust the Devs. 

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I won't discuss this beyond this post. I'll stand by my previous statement. 

 

If you actually look at the stats it looks like seal clubbing. The opponents have some of the worst stats I've ever seen. Getting 14 kills for 5 lost aircrafts in those conditions really isn't what it takes to come here and try to patronize people.

 

I'm not into personal attacks , he was the one who came here with a condescending tone and if you come on a forum bragging as he did,  you'd better be sure you can truly back your claim up and that's clearly not his case.

 

I'm done with this particular issue.

Cheers

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did I say anything else then what the stats show?

Anyhow. I got enough time in the YAK to realize its a plane that easy as heck to fly. Have to pull the stickinstomach to provoke something that can remotely be described as a stall:P

And Turban: I am 42 years. The time that i thought i could come even remotely close to the best players in computergames (and therefor be "awesome") lies FAAAAR back:P

Edited by StG2_Winger

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it's very true that both plane sets are competitive if used correctly but come on axis planes such as 109f4 need much less of a learning curve and are more forgiving due to better performance hence are initially much easier to win with.

 

If u put a noob in a f4 and another in a yak or lagg the f4 will likely win.

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Some more goodies, and perhaps the best example of a well-kept combat notebook (Google Translated from Spanish): https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rkka.es%2FOtros_articulos%2F16_Pokryshkin%2F029_bloc.htm&edit-text=

 

Examples:

 

04_03.jpg

 

If you have speed, try these evasive manoeuvres. Going up rather than down gives you initiative, and is mostly unpredictable since most of the time VVS pilots (but not only) perform a Split-S as soon as trouble comes, eventually dragging the fight down to that ugly lawnmower combat at 50m.

 

Also, going up rather than down means you can handle the hungry buzzards Chief mentioned with more authority. The moment an enemy comes after you without you seeing them, likely with an overhead of energy since they had time to get in position while you were busy, the engagement will turn sour. Because of that, save up as much altitude as possible and only burn it when imperative.

 

05_02.jpg

 

05_01.jpg

 

05_03.jpg

 

05_04.jpg

 

05_05.jpg

 

05_06.jpg

 

 

Going uphill when defensive is the last thing you want to do, unless your opponent has so little energy that you have exclusive use of the vertical. Be careful with that kind of advice. 

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I could tell you that I have a 3:1 K/D in my I-16 against Fw190s and Bf109s. There will always be those Newbs that try and turnfight on the Deck with you, without a clue of how to set your Bf109 or Fw190 up to turn. The 109s can quite easily turn with everything VVS once you know how, and the Fw190 turns very well too against everything but Yaks and Il-2s. 

It's not hard to be good in the Yak if you approach with absolute Sisu.

 

The Yak-9 makes my Fizzy Thing Fizz in the James May way. It's a beautiful machine, but I really want the Yak-9T and go Head-On with Stuff. 

 

I think the Devs know that the P-40 can do more, and I think at some point we will see more. The Problem is in the Way the Manuals and Limits are given for the Engine, and we have Wartime Operations Manuals that give much higher Limits, and thus more Endurance in Combat.

It will get better, I trust the Devs. 

I was with you until the "head on" thing. Don't ever go to Vegas if you think 50/50 odds are a good thing!  :) :) :)

Edited by [LBS]HerrMurf

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Going uphill when defensive is the last thing you want to do, unless your opponent has so little energy that you have exclusive use of the vertical. Be careful with that kind of advice.

These are, as noted, to be used only when you have enough speed to boot. Also, if you defeat the enemy's shot and gain some altitude in the process while retaining competitive speed you avoid getting chewed up and eaten down low.

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I was with you until the "head on" thing. Don't ever go to Vegas if you think 50/50 odds are a good thing!  :)  :) :)

I think we should let the climate cool down a bit. The whole 190 business after DD 123 has damaged the interest of the entire community. Those [Edited] and their bloody 190 ruin the P-40 by extension for the next couple of patches. 

I could go on but it would get me banned again. 

I pity the Devs for their decision to put the 190 in the game, I seriously do. They should have gone with a Bf110F instead, far less Stress and Toxicity. 

Edited by Bearcat
Language
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Going uphill when defensive is the last thing you want to do, unless your opponent has so little energy that you have exclusive use of the vertical. Be careful with that kind of advice. 

If you talk about the last picture my guess is that the attacker is supposed to have significantly higher airspeed so that when the defender pulls up he overshoots and in his attempt to pull behind the defender, whos flying at a better manouver speed, catches up on his six (I obviously can't read russian so it's only an assumption based on the picture).

 

In theory this may work but might be very difficult to judge right and is surely not a very common situation ingame. So I agree it's maybe not the best advise since it's easily being mistaken.

it's very true that both plane sets are competitive if used correctly but come on axis planes such as 109f4 need much less of a learning curve and are more forgiving due to better performance hence are initially much easier to win with.

 

If u put a noob in a f4 and another in a yak or lagg the f4 will likely win.

That is probably true, although the Yak as said before has better continous turn characteristics than the Bf-109 in clean wing configuration.

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