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Tactical Air War

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So I'm probably alone in this, but I hate the respawn timer. I wanted to get started the other day flying this campaign, but I once again found myself leaving after dying and playing SP instead of waiting to respawn.

 

I understand if it stays the same, but I just wanted to give my opinion on it.

 

I'd suggest balance based resupply

I fully support this suggestion. This is a great way to give some help to the losing side without forcing people to fly on a side they don't want to.

 

This could be implemented in many different ways, but I feel this is a really good idea.

 

I don't know that I would say you should limit planes for the winning side, but It would be nice to see the losing side get some boost to their hangar in some way.

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I wonder if you have ever played ANY sort of teamsport.. I can only assume you did never. I used to be sportive, and when a couple of people met and wanted to play ball, the reallity hardly ever saw teams like 50 vs 10 "because I can only play in the blue jersey" or "I want to be on the winning team".

Bad analogy.

 

Playing for different sides in sports does not change the tools given to you. Both sides of a soccer field are the same, each side gets the same ball, has shin guards, same positions, and has cleats.

 

Playing for different sides here gives pretty different experiences as the planes are quite different.

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Additionally to the Scojo's post and the wrong sport analogy, these two teams would be limited in jersey selection. They have to choose between let's say Madrid and Barcelona (I have almost zero knowledge of soccer so I don't use their names). I'm pretty sure there would be many players not playing for the team if they have to wear the "wrong" jersey.  :biggrin:

Edited by I./JG1_Pragr

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First let me say that I just love this server.

 

This is my second TAW campaign, and even though I flew the first campaign as VVS, IMO the removal of the tank limit was correct. The last campaign proved that the tank limit was an unfair advantage for VVS.

 

I was intending to fly LW for my second try, but when I logged on saw that VVS was outnumbered and chose VVS again. Reason is I like to fight for the underdog and prefer a target rich environment.

 

Even though I fly mostly ground attack missions, it's more fun when you have to plan the mission trying to avoid fighter opposition. The AI ack is a challenge, of course, but quite easy to circumvent. The other day I did a solo dive bombing mission with the Pe2 and egressing at low alt was chased by no less that 6 109s (checked the track afterwards). It was great fun speeding for the safety of the airfield at tree level. Don't know why but they didn't press the attack and I was able to land with no damage. Cool mission  :salute: 

 

However I agree that something should be done to provide a more balanced environment.

I support the idea of balance based resupply, and think that maybe the easiest way to implement it would be to limit blue take offs to only unarmed supply a/c when the ratio of blue/red armed a/c in flight is above a certain value. And viceversa for red, of course.

This way if you log in and find that you can't take off because your side is above the allowed ratio you can still contribute to the war effort by unarmed supply flights, as well as fill out your hangar and increase the target population. Then maybe after you land the ratio has changed and you can take off for an armed mission.

 

Just a suggestion and I don't even know if it's possible, scriptwise. Thoughts?

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However I agree that something should be done to provide a more balanced environment.

I support the idea of balance based resupply, and think that maybe the easiest way to implement it would be to limit blue take offs to only unarmed supply a/c when the ratio of blue/red armed a/c in flight is above a certain value. And viceversa for red, of course.

This way if you log in and find that you can't take off because your side is above the allowed ratio you can still contribute to the war effort by unarmed supply flights, as well as fill out your hangar and increase the target population. Then maybe after you land the ratio has changed and you can take off for an armed mission.

Imo, this is along the same lines of restricting player numbers on each side as you're keeping people from flying what they without them having any control over it.

 

It would be best to just give the disadvantaged side a CM boost or make the number superior side need more CM to get their planes.

 

The first wouldn't limit anyone and the second would limit the higher number side, however they can still fly what they want, they just have to be more careful.

 

Now would this actually change anything? Idk. It would have to be tried and it would also heavily depend on exactly how it's implemented.

 

Unfortunately both of our suggestions won't happen for a while as Kathon said he doesn't have enough time to do more than just change some numbers in the missions

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Everyone wants all these systems to balance the game that require time to implement and Kathon has stated he is quite limited for now.

I still think the best balancer would be a gentlemen's agreement between the larger groups that play the campaign.  Requires none of Kathon's time and can be done at any point people choose to engage each other.

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Are the VVS even attempting to fly this campaign?

 

All I ever see are LW guys on the server.  Which, being from the US, makes me laugh because it seems that no matter what time of day or night it is, I can find one player always on this server.  Makes me wonder how they can do it?  Do they have a job?  If they do, when do they sleep?  If they don't, how do they afford this hobby?  Is their job this game?  Maybe that's why he charges for his flight school, so he doesn't have to work.

 

Wait, charging for a flight school?  Weekly?  There is only one thing I have ever seen computer games pay for weekly besides a subscription to WoW...

 

:biggrin:

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Everyone wants all these systems to balance the game that require time to implement and Kathon has stated he is quite limited for now.

 

I still think the best balancer would be a gentlemen's agreement between the larger groups that play the campaign.  Requires none of Kathon's time and can be done at any point people choose to engage each other.

So before every campaign have each squadron sign up for a side so that balancing attempted by telling certain squads they need to switch sides?

Are the VVS even attempting to fly this campaign?

 

All I ever see are LW guys on the server.  Which, being from the US, makes me laugh because it seems that no matter what time of day or night it is, I can find one player always on this server.  Makes me wonder how they can do it?  Do they have a job?  If they do, when do they sleep?  If they don't, how do they afford this hobby?  Is their job this game?  Maybe that's why he charges for his flight school, so he doesn't have to work.

 

Wait, charging for a flight school?  Weekly?  There is only one thing I have ever seen computer games pay for weekly besides a subscription to WoW...

 

:biggrin:

I'm EST as well and I've never seen lots of VVS playing when I'm on even though VVS apparently rolled the last campaign.

 

The time to fly is supposedly Russia and Europe prime time, which is when I'm strictly unable to be awake or off work lol

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Reds lost their Michael Jordan and his Scottie Pippens. Who will step up? Here's some motivational music:

 

Edited by Nerf_or_nothing

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So before every campaign have each squadron sign up for a side so that balancing attempted by telling certain squads they need to switch sides?

 

You've missed the point. If you look back at the previous 5-0 shellacking, out of the top 10 squads (based on points per flight hours) I think it was 7 flew for Red. In this campaign almost all of them switched to Blue. Roo5ster's point is, that these squads reach an agreement among themselves not to stack one side too heavily. 

 

 

All I ever see are LW guys on the server.  Which, being from the US, makes me laugh because it seems that no matter what time of day or night it is, I can find one player always on this server.  Makes me wonder how they can do it?  Do they have a job?  If they do, when do they sleep?  If they don't, how do they afford this hobby?  Is their job this game?  Maybe that's why he charges for his flight school, so he doesn't have to work.

 

Wait, charging for a flight school?  Weekly?  There is only one thing I have ever seen computer games pay for weekly besides a subscription to WoW...

 

:biggrin:

:clapping:

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Roo5ster's point is, that these squads reach an agreement among themselves not to stack one side too heavily. 

Good luck with that happening without someone putting the time in to actively facilitate it

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Imo, this is along the same lines of restricting player numbers on each side as you're keeping people from flying what they without them having any control over it.

 

It would be best to just give the disadvantaged side a CM boost or make the number superior side need more CM to get their planes.

 

The first wouldn't limit anyone and the second would limit the higher number side, however they can still fly what they want, they just have to be more careful.

 

Now would this actually change anything? Idk. It would have to be tried and it would also heavily depend on exactly how it's implemented.

 

Unfortunately both of our suggestions won't happen for a while as Kathon said he doesn't have enough time to do more than just change some numbers in the missions

 

Interesting suggestion, but giving a CM boost to the disadvantaged side or a CM penalty to the advantaged side seems to me difficult if not impossible to implement, when you consider that the advantage may shift back and forth in the course of a single mission.

OTOH the principle of keeping people from flying what they want is perfectly ok. The rolling plane set does just that and nobody complains. There's a war on, you know :lol:

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Interesting suggestion, but giving a CM boost to the disadvantaged side or a CM penalty to the advantaged side seems to me difficult if not impossible to implement, when you consider that the advantage may shift back and forth in the course of a single mission.

OTOH the principle of keeping people from flying what they want is perfectly ok. The rolling plane set does just that and nobody complains. There's a war on, you know :lol:

True, but plane set doesn't keep someone from flying something that has combat potential, which is a big part of why people fly air combat simulators. If I were forced to fly transport, I would just go back to SP or find another server.

 

I'm not saying what I suggested is the best solution, a good solution, or even a solution at all, but rather something that might help the problem. It's a complex problem and the solution will not be easy to find, if it is even feasibly possible to find at all, unfortunately.

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For example, right now there's 7 LW and 0 VVS on the map.

If my suggestion was implemented they would be flying supply missions or not flying at all. Would this be so detrimental to the server?

 

I think leaving 7 LW pilots free to practice combat flight sim onanism on a map with no opposition is far worse... I'm pretty sure that they too feel a bit awkward about it :biggrin:

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Good luck with that happening without someone putting the time in to actively facilitate it

Good luck with the solutions that require Kathon's time

 

Assuming that people don't want to be jerks, all it takes is a PM thread between a person from each of those groups to say hey, we are wanting to do LW next campaign, what about you guys?  My guess is some won't play ball but I don't see how this requires a significant amount of time from anyone.  Anyways, agree to disagree and hopefully some sort of good solution comes along regardless of who it makes right!

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So question to the community as a whole.  Outside of team balance, if you wanted to make airfields in TAW more difficult to take and prolong the time on each map, what would you do?  Would you apply this to every airfield or only ones that are 'frontline' or 'backline' assuming the map is fresh.  Do you hate the thought of this altogether?

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Bad analogy.

 

Playing for different sides in sports does not change the tools given to you. Both sides of a soccer field are the same, each side gets the same ball, has shin guards, same positions, and has cleats.

 

Playing for different sides here gives pretty different experiences as the planes are quite different.

 

Sure, but in the end you got fighters, bombers and attackers for each side.. going about similar buisness on each side and needing to coordinate.

and just because the blue clad soccer team has shoes that make it run a little faster while the red team has shoes that make shooting at the goal a bit easier doesn´t put an end to it beeing a sport/match/game thingy that needs teambalance and roughly equal chances of winning for it to make sense beeing played like this. So, how is this not a sport or a game?

 

Sorry, you were sportive and you are assuming or accusing somebody else of never having played any sort of team sport?   :lol:

I guess we might get to see another video of you demonstrating your "sportive" solo team effort?  I'm might make an assumption that it will involve a PE2.

 

Ask, and you shall receive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FCrxbZ63SA

 

I still think the best balancer would be a gentlemen's agreement between the larger groups that play the campaign.  Requires none of Kathon's time and can be done at any point people choose to engage each other.

 

Well, that could work, too. It could be an elegant and easy solution, but so far the track record into that direction seems poor, and hence I´m a bit sceptical people could pull themselves together... even less so without forming "winning by defaul" alliances of unqual power.

 

 

Another problem is skill distribuition, though. Currently the teeth gnashing side changers are by and large more experienced players and I would assume skill level differences/experience played a significant role in the outcome of the last matches. Actually having that these effects nullified by random distribuition would be really interesting in judging what influence the plane sets actually have, even if just done for test purposes.

 

Finally, a lot of games have autobalancing and it works, even with "uneven" tools in games like "Day of Infamy" or other shooters.... that also have slight "charme of the 3rd Reich" problems with one side attraking potentially more players. I think the only game not going that road would be War Thunder, who solves these problems by waiting (cueing until enough are on all sides) combined with unhistorical plane sets (to make the pool each side can draw from bigger). THat certainly is not an option for BoS, I think.

 

Roosters wish for a "gentlemans agreement" is possibly the easiest short term solution, but I am more and more convinced, that if people do not think about a serversided balancing system, the unqual matchups are a real hinderance to growth in all flightsims. Of course, such a system can never be perfect, but having some ways to influence side atendance is direly needed. And hence I see a need to discuss concepts for such a mechanism.

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I don't think the difference between Yak/109, Pe-2/110 or stuka, or He-111/nothing amounts to "shoes that make it run a little faster" or "shoes that make shooting at the goal a bit easier", especially considering that good soccer players don't get there advantages at all from using different gear...


Whereas a good pilot exploits the weaknesses of the enemy aircraft and the strengths of his own... In the Sim we're not flying Yaks vs Yaks or 109s vs 109s

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I don't think the difference between Yak/109, Pe-2/110 or stuka, or He-111/nothing amounts to "shoes that make it run a little faster" or "shoes that make shooting at the goal a bit easier", especially considering that good soccer players don't get there advantages at all from using different gear...

Whereas a good pilot exploits the weaknesses of the enemy aircraft and the strengths of his own... In the Sim we're not flying Yaks vs Yaks or 109s vs 109s

 

And how exactly does that make the need for somewhat balanced teams go away?

 

8BAEDC4D6EA8E570647FB01D84C512E602A42221

 

I mean, the amount of flightsimmers thowing some "I don´t care for balancing, give me realism and historical accuracy!!11!!" fits into forums is tantamount, yet then they just join the side with better planes and most ahistorical numbers.. I think that is hysterical ;=P

Edited by Monostripezebra
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Sure, but in the end you got fighters, bombers and attackers for each side.. going about similar buisness on each side and needing to coordinate.

and just because the blue clad soccer team has shoes that make it run a little faster while the red team has shoes that make shooting at the goal a bit easier doesn´t put an end to it beeing a sport/match/game thingy that needs teambalance and roughly equal chances of winning for it to make sense beeing played like this. So, how is this not a sport or a game?

 

 

Ask, and you shall receive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FCrxbZ63SA

 

 

Well, that could work, too. It could be an elegant and easy solution, but so far the track record into that direction seems poor, and hence I´m a bit sceptical people could pull themselves together... even less so without forming "winning by defaul" alliances of unqual power.

 

 

Another problem is skill distribuition, though. Currently the teeth gnashing side changers are by and large more experienced players and I would assume skill level differences/experience played a significant role in the outcome of the last matches. Actually having that these effects nullified by random distribuition would be really interesting in judging what influence the plane sets actually have, even if just done for test purposes.

 

Finally, a lot of games have autobalancing and it works, even with "uneven" tools in games like "Day of Infamy" or other shooters.... that also have slight "charme of the 3rd Reich" problems with one side attraking potentially more players. I think the only game not going that road would be War Thunder, who solves these problems by waiting (cueing until enough are on all sides) combined with unhistorical plane sets (to make the pool each side can draw from bigger). THat certainly is not an option for BoS, I think.

 

Roosters wish for a "gentlemans agreement" is possibly the easiest short term solution, but I am more and more convinced, that if people do not think about a serversided balancing system, the unqual matchups are a real hinderance to growth in all flightsims. Of course, such a system can never be perfect, but having some ways to influence side atendance is direly needed. And hence I see a need to discuss concepts for such a mechanism.

 

 

Monostripzebra

 

Thank you for you video, it was like receiving a knitted jumper from GrandMother.  Although I did ask for a video (mental note, do not ask again), please forgive me for not actually watching the video as I assumed it would be the usual solo attack on an airfield (to hit an unsuspecting aircraft) or a high altitude attack on a 109.  However, please correct me if I was wrong, as if it was you participating in a big raid, I will certainly boot up youtube to watch it with envy.  Although you mentioned in the above picture (post 3758) that there were only 12 reds on the server, surely under your sportive leadership and guidance you could have organised a bomber raid with escorts?

 

Anyway, I'm off to join the blues in our 30+ JU88 bombing raid.

 

Regards and keep up those videos.  :drink2:

Edited by Haza

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I just don't get why people bother flying LW when they outnumber VVS by so much. I sure as hell got bored with it. Sadly, with the current balance it's not fun flying VVS either.

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Maybe the bigger teams could communicate in the future which team goes where. So we get at least in that regard a balance?

Hydra (which isn't really a big squad) is up for it. We switched last campaign, but I can't see that we switch everytime. That would send the wrong message to those who sit there and demand more balance.

Edited by DerSheriff
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Anyway, I'm off to join the blues in our 30+ JU88 bombing raid.

 

That must feel really great, especially for those escorts.. not even AI to worry about, only still 6+ losses from AAA because people can´t missionplan for shit ;=)

 

Yes we really need a COOP server for very inexperiend players, it seems.

IsHcY2ao1cIgocNZblrc9qZIWLV-Mt10iIs3EzUe

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Maybe the bigger teams could communicate in the future which team goes where. So we get at least in that regard a balance?

 

Hydra (which isn't really a big squad) is up for it. We switched last campaign, but I can't see that we switch everytime. That would send the wrong message to those who sit there and demand more balance.

 

We also said that to help LW we would have switched side.... Next campaign we'll play allies again

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I´d like to invite all to discuss what possible balancing mechanisms could work in a software sided implementation in a flightsim, here:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/28171-thoughts-about-viable-autobalance-options-server/

Honestly, we can have some TAW centric discussion about the issue here but if you continually reply with what is nearly trolling (your earlier posts, not this one) to all of the other people who have ideas, you will continue to derail it going much of anywhere.

Edited by StG77_Roo5ter

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That must feel really great, especially for those escorts.. not even AI to worry about, only still 6+ losses from AAA because people can´t missionplan for shit ;=)

 

Yes we really need a COOP server for very inexperiend players, it seems.

IsHcY2ao1cIgocNZblrc9qZIWLV-Mt10iIs3EzUe

 

It felt fantastic thank you.

Our escorts didn't even have to worry about that lone sportive PE2.  It was a shame as nobody even bothered to make a video about it.

Glad to see your mission planning is hitting those ground objectives, hard!

 

Regards

Edited by Haza

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Maybe the bigger teams could communicate in the future which team goes where. So we get at least in that regard a balance?

 

Hydra (which isn't really a big squad) is up for it. We switched last campaign, but I can't see that we switch everytime. That would send the wrong message to those who sit there and demand more balance.

It would help if some of the squads with JG in front of their name would fly anything other than LW. But that's entirely too much to ask...

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Some good ideas/solutions thrown up there but as mentioned here before, this balance thing is easily fixed right now without Kathons time or planning between squads. It's a direct democracy. If you are bothered by team-balance, switch sides. If you have a really good excuse not to, well that's you and everyone else and things remain as they are.

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I and 99 Luftballon Will be switching to axis IF it dosent get better. And we are two of the eleven flying for Papa Stalin

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The rake's FM is OTT.

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I've learned to see always the bright side in life.

 

LW is winning again!  :biggrin:

 

It's a bit of a shame. I'm short on time right now and when I find some hours I fly BlueFlag because TAW right now feels dirty like a Bukake-Party... not that I've ever experienced one... *cough*

 

how can we #MakeTAWgreatAgain?

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And how exactly does that make the need for somewhat balanced teams go away?

I never said it removed the need for balance. My point was that restricting someone to a specific team has a more negative effect on people's enjoyment since here the tools (the aircraft) given to each team are different and many people want to play on a certain team for those tools

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