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Tactical Air War

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16 hours ago, =/Hospiz/=Metalhead said:


P-51 was a rare sight in tactical warfare during timeframe of the campaign, while Tempest was much more common in late '44. Out of the available types in BoBp, P-51 was the last one to appear in tactical units.
 


There’s a lot here to disagree with.


The 9th Air Force (the US “tactical” Air Force in Western Europe) was the very first operator of Merlin engined Mustangs in the world.  They started receiving D models for their P-51 units in June/July of 1944.  One of their Mustang groups converted to a tactical recon org in sept but they along with the 9ths other tac recon units continued to operate P-51s (F-6Ds and Cs with the oblique camera mount) through the remainder of the war.  The other 9th AF P-51 group switched to P-47s in November 1944 and then back to P-51s in Feb 1945.  Another 9th AF P-38 group then converted to P-51s in March of 45.

 

The 2nd Tactical Air Force had Mustangs units (albeit Mustang IIIs) on the continent in Summer of 1944, and exchanged these for Tempests after Market-Garden at the end of September 1944.  After Market-Garden (which involved a large and intense tactical air battle) there was very little air activity due to bad weather until the Ardennes offensive in December.  I bring this up because by the start of December, the 2nd Tactical Air Force’s five Tempest squadrons had claimed all of 13 kills.  That number would grow to 48 by the end of December and 230 by the end of the war.

 

And that brings us to the 8th Air Force.  There was no magical force field that prevented “strategic” aircraft from interfering with “tactical” battles.  Not being based on the map wasn’t a big issue when your aircraft could easily fly from the UK to Berlin and back.  All the allied air forces were subordinate to Eisenhower’s Supreme Headquarters.  The 8th’s fighters and bombers were used extensively in the tactical role in the lead up to the invasion and throughout the Normandy campaign.  And again for Market-Garden.  And again for the battle of the Bulge.  Quoting myself here:

Quote

To illustrate this, I spent a little time digging through references looking at allied victory claims for the Market-Garden battle (Sept 17-25th) and the Battle of the Bulge (Dec 16th - Jan 14).  I've included just claims made over our map area - the exception to this is the US 9th AF.  I just don't have detailed enough info for them, just raw numbers with dates and units but no locations.   I've included all claims for the 9th, but this likely overstates their involvement, as many 9th AF fighters were deployed well south of our map area - still I don't think this impacts my totals by too much.

 

For the Market-Garden battle (Sept 17-25th 1944), RAF Spitfire Mk. IXs claimed 23, and RAF Mustangs 9.  9th AF P-47s claimed 8 and P-38's 3.  8th AF P-51s and P-47s (all operating out of England and using 150 octane fuel) claimed 79 and 34 respectively!  As you can see, the 8th AF (flying out of England using 150 octane fuel) was the main Allied force involved over this battle!

 

For the Battle of the Bulge (Dec 16th 1944 through Jan 14th 1945, which was the date that most of the Jagdwaffe was ordered to the east front and air combat dropped off significantly) the totals are:

 

RAF Spit IX: 131

RAF Spit XIV: 3

RAF Typhoon: 14

RAF Tempest: 53

RAF Mustang: 9

 

9th AF P-47: 258

9th AF P-38: 56

9th AF P-51: 17 (these were scored by Tac Recon squadrons of the 9th AF)

 

8th AF P-51 based on the continent (100 octane fuel): 80

8th AF P-47 based in England (150 octane fuel): 81

8th AF P-51 based in England (150 octane fuel): 319 !!!

 

As you can see from the numbers, P-51's using 150 octane fuel were used HEAVILY in combat in western Europe.


So we can see that in just one week of fighting over Market-Garden, 8th AF Mustangs were involved in more combat than all of the Tempests saw in their first 3 months based on the continent.  And in the roughly four weeks from the start of the Ardennes campaign, until the LW withdrew most of their fighter force and sent them East, 8th AF P-51s flying out of the UK out scored the Tempests entire war total.  And those numbers for the P-51 were just kills scored over our Rheinland map area (almost exclusively against the Luftwaffe’s “tactical” fighter units) and ignore any scored deeper in Germany etc.  And that’s just focusing on the two big “tactical” air battles of 1944 that the 8th was committed to, not to mention the encounters that sometimes occurred with returning escort formations dropping to low altitude and looking for trouble.
 

To argue that it’s “historical” to not include the Mustang is just nonsense.
 

 

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Strange choice of server admins for the Mustang. On the map of Stalingrad there are FW-190 and Yak-1B, but in reality they were not there. There are no Mustangs on the map of the Rhineland, but they were there...

I hope the admins will reconsider their choice and the Mustang will be

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17 minutes ago, -332FG-Hank_DG said:

So looks like only a couple week campaign again ☹

Couple of weeks?
Campaign is running for 50 years already.🤔
image.png.d06a0e35b490508fd32c94b0e2f40b1e.png

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Hello TAW Admins!

 

My commander (Mr. Wolfert) asks for replace existing "1/SG2" channel in TAW's TS by this new channels structure:

Stab/SG2
1/SG2
2/SG2
WG
SV7

 

The reason: all our three squadrons (SG2 and SV7 as attackers and WG as our regular cover) plan to actively fly this TAW's war.
We collect 10-20 pilots in our flying days (Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday) as usual so it will be good for better communication.

Permissions in these new channels can be equivalent to the old "1/SG2" channel.

Thank you!

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9 minutes ago, 1/SG2_Death_ said:

Hello TAW Admins!

 

My commander (Mr. Wolfert) asks for replace existing "1/SG2" channel in TAW's TS by this new channels structure:

Stab/SG2
1/SG2
2/SG2
WG
SV7

 

The reason: all our three squadrons (SG2 and SV7 as attackers and WG as our regular cover) plan to actively fly this TAW's war.
We collect 10-20 pilots in our flying days (Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday) as usual so it will be good for better communication.

Permissions in these new channels can be equivalent to the old "1/SG2" channel.

Thank you!

 

image.png.80197135b614b073d6751388f92bab22.png

done

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2 hours ago, KW_1979 said:


There’s a lot here to disagree with.


The 9th Air Force (the US “tactical” Air Force in Western Europe) was the very first operator of Merlin engined Mustangs in the world.  They started receiving D models for their P-51 units in June/July of 1944.  One of their Mustang groups converted to a tactical recon org in sept but they along with the 9ths other tac recon units continued to operate P-51s (F-6Ds and Cs with the oblique camera mount) through the remainder of the war.  The other 9th AF P-51 group switched to P-47s in November 1944 and then back to P-51s in Feb 1945.  Another 9th AF P-38 group then converted to P-51s in March of 45.

 

The 2nd Tactical Air Force had Mustangs units (albeit Mustang IIIs) on the continent in Summer of 1944, and exchanged these for Tempests after Market-Garden at the end of September 1944.  After Market-Garden (which involved a large and intense tactical air battle) there was very little air activity due to bad weather until the Ardennes offensive in December.  I bring this up because by the start of December, the 2nd Tactical Air Force’s five Tempest squadrons had claimed all of 13 kills.  That number would grow to 48 by the end of December and 230 by the end of the war.

 

And that brings us to the 8th Air Force.  There was no magical force field that prevented “strategic” aircraft from interfering with “tactical” battles.  Not being based on the map wasn’t a big issue when your aircraft could easily fly from the UK to Berlin and back.  All the allied air forces were subordinate to Eisenhower’s Supreme Headquarters.  The 8th’s fighters and bombers were used extensively in the tactical role in the lead up to the invasion and throughout the Normandy campaign.  And again for Market-Garden.  And again for the battle of the Bulge.  Quoting myself here:


So we can see that in just one week of fighting over Market-Garden, 8th AF Mustangs were involved in more combat than all of the Tempests saw in their first 3 months based on the continent.  And in the roughly four weeks from the start of the Ardennes campaign, until the LW withdrew most of their fighter force and sent them East, 8th AF P-51s flying out of the UK out scored the Tempests entire war total.  And those numbers for the P-51 were just kills scored over our Rheinland map area (almost exclusively against the Luftwaffe’s “tactical” fighter units) and ignore any scored deeper in Germany etc.  And that’s just focusing on the two big “tactical” air battles of 1944 that the 8th was committed to, not to mention the encounters that sometimes occurred with returning escort formations dropping to low altitude and looking for trouble.
 

To argue that it’s “historical” to not include the Mustang is just nonsense.
 

 


During TAW timeframe no 9th AF units used P-51. 9th received P-51s earlier, true. However, during 1944 USAAF performed a kind of "standarization", swapping P-47 and P-51 units between 8th and 9th AF. As a result, 8th ended up almost uniformly equipped with P-51s (with notable exeption of 56th FG), while 9th was primairly equipped with P-47s, after they send all theris Mustang squadrons to 8th.

TAW focuses on tactical ops, that's why planeset is based on equipment used in 9th AF and 2nd TAF, in the vicinity of the frontline, not operating from remote bases.  There were numerous Tempest squadrons in 2nd TAF during timeframe of map#1, but there were no P-51 units in the 9th AF. During that time 8th AF was based mostly in England with only few units (former 9th units) operating from the continent. Number of kills doesn't matter much in that context. Luftwaffe was focused on Reich defense at that time, so it is natural consequence, that units flying escort tasks scored high number of kills because they were often involved in combat. On the other side, tactical units faced lighter opposition, so contacts with enemy were less common. In that context, those 53 kills scored by 5 Tempest squadrons isn't that low number, compared to 80 scored by 2-3 P-51s fighter groups of 8th AF, which despite being contintent based, still flown escort missions.

8th AF main objective was to perform strategic operations.  Claiming that their high kill numbers prove their involvement in tactical operations is nonsense. Sure, there's no barrier that prevents a fighter on a strategic operation to dive down and look for tactical skirmishes, but there's no point to do so either. War is not a game, it's not about chasing the first enemy you see to rack up your stats. It's about executing orders and performing tasks. If a fighter unit has order to cover a bombing raid, it covers a bombing raid, sweeping high altitudes from enemy. Whatever is going down there is happening DOWN there. It is no threat to bombers so there is no need for fighters to leave their assignment. Sure, 8th involved in tactical operations from time to time, but MAJORITY of their time they flown up high, and most of combat they had, was up high.

To sum up - between P-51 and Tempest, the latter was more significant type in operations portrayed on TAW, during timeframe pictured on map#1 of the campaign.

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The stats are not being updated immediately after the sortie. Was this changed from last TAW?

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8 minutes ago, 1./JG42Nephris said:

Sorry for a maybe alreay answered topic, but is SRS activated on the TAW Server?

 

Kathon confirmed that probably next week it will be activated

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3 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

Script error. Fixing.


Will the results of the first mission be counted?

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1 minute ago, mincer said:


Will the results of the first mission be counted?

About the first hour will be counted, but the mission will be reload.

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10 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

About the first hour will be counted, but the mission will be reload.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

Fixed and running.

 

Hi Kathon! The Air Kills, combat missions and other stats from the first iteration are not showing. Anything that can be done to recover them?

 

IMG-5218.thumb.JPG.27a8869584247d6b27b1d4a876271216.JPG

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Posted (edited)

yes, 2 sorties, 13 ground targets (2 AAA and 11 trucks) - in stats zero...

Edited by 72AG_SerWolf

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The problem was bigger :( It looks like stats are counted if pilot had ended his sortie before 10:58UTC. 

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6 hours ago, KW_1979 said:


There’s a lot here to disagree with.


The 9th Air Force (the US “tactical” Air Force in Western Europe) was the very first operator of Merlin engined Mustangs in the world.  They started receiving D models for their P-51 units in June/July of 1944.  One of their Mustang groups converted to a tactical recon org in sept but they along with the 9ths other tac recon units continued to operate P-51s (F-6Ds and Cs with the oblique camera mount) through the remainder of the war.  The other 9th AF P-51 group switched to P-47s in November 1944 and then back to P-51s in Feb 1945.  Another 9th AF P-38 group then converted to P-51s in March of 45.

 

The 2nd Tactical Air Force had Mustangs units (albeit Mustang IIIs) on the continent in Summer of 1944, and exchanged these for Tempests after Market-Garden at the end of September 1944.  After Market-Garden (which involved a large and intense tactical air battle) there was very little air activity due to bad weather until the Ardennes offensive in December.  I bring this up because by the start of December, the 2nd Tactical Air Force’s five Tempest squadrons had claimed all of 13 kills.  That number would grow to 48 by the end of December and 230 by the end of the war.

 

And that brings us to the 8th Air Force.  There was no magical force field that prevented “strategic” aircraft from interfering with “tactical” battles.  Not being based on the map wasn’t a big issue when your aircraft could easily fly from the UK to Berlin and back.  All the allied air forces were subordinate to Eisenhower’s Supreme Headquarters.  The 8th’s fighters and bombers were used extensively in the tactical role in the lead up to the invasion and throughout the Normandy campaign.  And again for Market-Garden.  And again for the battle of the Bulge.  Quoting myself here:


So we can see that in just one week of fighting over Market-Garden, 8th AF Mustangs were involved in more combat than all of the Tempests saw in their first 3 months based on the continent.  And in the roughly four weeks from the start of the Ardennes campaign, until the LW withdrew most of their fighter force and sent them East, 8th AF P-51s flying out of the UK out scored the Tempests entire war total.  And those numbers for the P-51 were just kills scored over our Rheinland map area (almost exclusively against the Luftwaffe’s “tactical” fighter units) and ignore any scored deeper in Germany etc.  And that’s just focusing on the two big “tactical” air battles of 1944 that the 8th was committed to, not to mention the encounters that sometimes occurred with returning escort formations dropping to low altitude and looking for trouble.
 

To argue that it’s “historical” to not include the Mustang is just nonsense.
 

 

 

Since the P-51 we have has a 1 g advantage of a "G-Suit" hard-coded which was not started issue until Nov of '44, whatever TAW map we are given it should only start mid to late '44 battle lines.

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There are still some issues with the current TAW map. The altimeter shows wrong data, much to high at the start. Low altitude AAA at approx. 2120.4 was placed among the woods and not visible for attacks, but was shooting like hell at us without a clear line of view. It feels not right this way. Maybe you have time to look at this points.Thanks for your effort, @Kathon!

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19 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

Since the P-51 we have has a 1 g advantage of a "G-Suit" hard-coded which was not started issue until Nov of '44, whatever TAW map we are given it should only start mid to late '44 battle lines.

I am pretty sure you are wrong.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

I am pretty sure you are wrong.

@DerSheriff which part? I am about to drop some knowledge ;)

 

Research article published by NASA: Dressing for Altitude

pg. 106: image.png.49b4a62b00ab7289ec38e3b47e484a57.png

Edited by JG7_X-Man

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Bugs:

Sea level altitude is ~1000m.

Many targets (hit only reds so far) seem to be immune to damage. Can't really go and test each one individually but it do be like so. At least buildings and trucks are suspect. 
 

Other than that, :)

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Posted (edited)

Yeah dude. Easy when you pick only quotes which fit your expectations and hopes:

Earlier mark was "standard" in June 1944.

 

What you are doing is not research, its just finding quotes where you ignore context and then leave the work to others who have to fix your mess.

image.png.409932af79b27d39564100f8e149327b.png

 

P. 95

Edited by DerSheriff
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3 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

Since the P-51 we have has a 1 g advantage of a "G-Suit" hard-coded which was not started issue until Nov of '44, whatever TAW map we are given it should only start mid to late '44 battle lines.

 

Does that not apply to the Jug and Lightning as well?

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4 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Does that not apply to the Jug and Lightning as well?

 Oh it does! :) so why not just have a map that started at Autumn of '44 - problem solved.

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Tempests used +11lbs on 100 octane fuel from Summer 1944. Strange to see it excluded.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DerSheriff said:

Yeah dude. Easy when you pick only quotes which fit your expectations and hopes:

Earlier mark was "standard" in June 1944.

 

What you are doing is not research, its just finding quotes where you ignore context and then leave the work to others who have to fix your mess.

image.png.409932af79b27d39564100f8e149327b.png

 

P. 95

 

There is a difference b/w  G-2 "standard" (your post) and the G-3 "standard equipment" (my post). As a former USMC supply guy, there is a huge difference in the terminology.

 

Let me try and not make this boring. When a military contract reaches approval stage, there is a lag time of manufacturing, distribution and delivery (supply chain management). There is at best a 3 month lag in WWII (being conservative). Hence, when a fighter pilot saw a G-Suit on his bunk and an announcement in the mess hall of a 5:30 PM class on WTF that is and how how to use it, some time time has passed.

Edited by JG7_X-Man

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10 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

There is a difference b/w  G-2 "standard" (your post) and the G-3 "standard equipment" (my post). As a former USMC supply guy, there is a huge difference in the terminology.

G-2 and G-3 had the same performance of about 1G, just that G-3 was about 2.5x lighter and more comfortable

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1 hour ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

image.png.dfa8f71f7fb277e42a22ef4d580b50ef.png

 

11th August 1944

 

Says here it's mandatory from August @JG7_X-Man

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