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Tactical Air War

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2 hours ago, JG4_Widukind said:

We have no Ju88 in Map1! 

You have Bf 110

Can you remember when the Reds won the map 1 last time before this war? 

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Just now, Norz said:

 

Oh, really? 

 

4x250 vs 2x500

10x100 vs 12x50 (Are you kidding?)

Ju-87 with 1000kg. 

 

I am sorry but 110 is not a bad plane, it is just not as attractive as the 109 and siren call of the warm fuzzy feeling of smug superiority from 7km .

 

Look at the VVS vs Axis ground ponder sorties, there is huge difference. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Norz said:

 

Oh, really? 

 

4x250 vs 2x500

10x100 vs 12x50 (No comments)

4x500 + 2x250 vs 2x500

On the following (next) maps after the first

11 minutes ago, StG77_HvB said:

the Ju 88 should be present on Map1, and that the IL-2's VYa-23 kills tanks

IL2 don't have VYa-23 on map 1

Edited by =2ndSS=Lawyer1

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13 minutes ago, CptSiddy said:

Surely you jest, for E-7 is one of the best tonk killers among fighters. 4 bombs = tonk kills if you are even moderately good at bombing and E-7 can defend itself from fighters.

 

I am not Polish. Your wannabe-funny joke just made you even more laughable.

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6 minutes ago, =2ndSS=Lawyer1 said:

IL2 don't have VYa-23 on map 1

 

I am well aware of that. See my posts two years ago for the reason why they're not on Map 1.

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Just now, StG77_HvB said:

 

I am well aware of that. See my posts two years ago for the reason why they're not on Map 1.

Blue don't have Ju88, Reds don't have VYa-23.

To someone it seems fair

1 hour ago, =LG=Kathon said:

 

image.png.c75d3706627a5fd45b73594296a1cd92.png

 

image.png.cc6453fbfe75f1d6340d2e2d8329f1c8.png

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My post about bug in AA was deleted by someone. Great :)

You can show the same data for the past war to compare? 

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Posted (edited)

Since there is a bug with German AA it seems the best solution would be to switched it out with allied AA until it is fixed. 

Edited by -332FG-Garven
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11 minutes ago, -332FG-Garven said:

Since there is a bug with German AA it seems the best solution would be to switched it out with allied AA until it is fixed. 

I don't think that's the only reason. Just airfields are destroying the same people. In the last war they destroyed the red AF and now the Blue AF. When the Squadron "КК" plays for my team, the play becomes boring. Interesting to play when they are opponents

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4 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That is why, we may want to limit the numbers of Peshkas and Ju-88s per map to a set number.

 

If you think in terms of hammers & nails for a brief moment, adding more nails to bang in is way more fun than taking hammers away. So more targets would also achieve your goal, but be more fun for everyone at the same time...

 

just a thought ;)

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I sat in the spawn area the other night and watched a lone Stuka come in slow and bomb the airfield. I think I saw one AAA gun shoot at him and miss. He would have gotten away but an IL-2 caught him on the way out. I'd be surprised if the flak glitch only affected Axis guns, but I guess I can make a Blue account and have a look.

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1 hour ago, Ropalcz said:

 

I am not Polish. Your wannabe-funny joke just made you even more laughable.

 

You may not be polish, but boy are a 100% boomer. 

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2 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

 

Oh lawd, this speaks of grim reality.

 

First map, the 110 has better GK/sortie ratio but they have barely 40% of the equivalent absolute sorties of Pe-2.

 

This is exactly as i already surmised from my own anecdotal experiences, the truth of the matter is: maps are won by Attackers and bombers, not fighters. And the side who fly more of theirs will win. 

If axis flew the 110 at the same gusto as VVS fly Pe-2, the scales would be more even.

I crunched the numbers and made my own chart that I find a little easier to compare. Basically only looking at ground kills/sortie, removing transport sorties, and dividing the axis planes from the soviet. I'm gonna do a bit of analysis just because its interesting, obviously this is going to be very simplified as we don't know flight hours, how many were shot down during the sortie, value of targets hit, etc. But we can draw some broad conclusions I think.Note: Because of changes my numbers may not match Kathons.

1884573248_ScreenHunter_14May_2413_22.jpg.55d6290679c72d3e48fe222a5b909a0c.jpg

So, Ground Kills

The long and short of it is that, in terms of ground kills/sortie, all of the axis attack and bomber aircraft individually are nearly as good or better as the closest equivalent on the VVS side. In map 1 the Bf-110 has nearly the exact GK ratio as the Pe-2. The He-111 is better than the Pe-2. The Ju-87 has a better ratio than the Il-2. The 109E7 has the same ratio as the P-40. The story of Map 1 is that the VVS generated about 500 more sorties in total and produced a higher GK/sortie than Axis despite the ground attackers being (statistically) equivalent or inferior. 

 

Its hard to figure out how many ground attack sorties were flown vs. air superiority because many planes are dual purpose in a sense. But if we assume the 110, Ju-87 and He-111 are  dedicated ground attack aircraft, then by percentage 30% of Luftwaffe sorties were by ground attackers, vs. 49% for the VVS (Pe-2 and Il-2). P-40 is too much of a mixed bag to be sure, but its a potent fighter bomber so maybe its score should be included, in which case the VVS percentage jumps to 61% of sorties. 

20/20 Hindsight Winning strategy for map 1: Bf-110 strike packages escorted by 109s (or not at all, the 110 can take on an I-16 if it needs to once it has no bombs). He-111s are better per sortie but probably take longer to do so just take the 110s, at least for tactical targets.

In Map 2, the 110's GK/sortie drops a bit but is still pretty good, lower than the Pe-2. The E-7 drops in comparison to the P-40, its about half as effective. The He-111 per sortie GK drops to below the Pe-2 making it even less worthwhile. The Ju-87D-3 is on par with the Il-2. However the real MVP is the Ju-88 which has the highest ratio of any aircraft, nearly double that of the Pe-2. But they only generated 1/5th the sorties. By percentage, Luftwaffe had 38% dedicated ground attackers compared to 46% for the VVS. Not as big a difference percentage wise this time, but significant, especially with the 110 being less efficient this time around and the Ju-88 not being used much.

 

Story of Map 2 is that the Luftwaffe again flew about 500 fewer sorties and got nearly 1700 fewer ground kills (though not as big a margin as last map). A higher ratio of ground attack sorties would be needed to make up the gap, but really 250 more sorties by Ju-88s or 500 more by 110s would likely  be enough to even the odds. 

20/20 Hindsight Winning strategy for map 2: Ju-88 or 110 strikes escorted by 109s, or unescorted high speed Ju-88 raids in the way the Soviets are apparently doing with the Pe-2. 


As far as Pe-2 spam goes, Pe-2s never got above 40% of total sorties. I don't know that capping Pe-2 airframes at any reasonable number for the theatre is going to do anything to change that, especially if most of the Pe-2s are evading interception and AA as is alleged. Unless you cap sorties, which just seems like cheesing it at this point.

 

The Il-2 is just too vulnerable to enemy fighters and AA and with limited lives/map there's no incentive to use it. 

TL;DR: In terms of statistical attack outcomes (GK/sortie), there's very little difference between the attackers of both sides, except for the Ju-88 which is head and shoulders above everything else in the plane-set. VVS just flies more sorties and a higher proportion of ground attackers. The VVS fighter bomber (P-40) seems better than the equivalent (109E7) but that will change when the FW-190 hits the scene. 
 

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Hi Gentlemen! This is my third TAW campaign, the first playing reds. To add to RedKestrel brilliant post, I was just wanted to say the biggest difference I noticed (and that is also truth on other servers) is that reds seem to play a lot more as a team. People talk more, inform more, ask for help more and team up on way that I only rarely see when playing red. So besides the quality of players, squads and planes which are obvious important factors, the team work is - in my humble opinion - the biggest difference in the red team.

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2 hours ago, -332FG-Garven said:

Since there is a bug with German AA it seems the best solution would be to switched it out with allied AA until it is fixed. 

All AA is bugged in the same way. 

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Now on to air kills!

725226093_ScreenHunter_15May_2415_17.jpg.b4030618146750a90bef637a2977ad57.jpg

Map 1: Once again, the AK/sortie rate is broadly similar for similar-role aircraft. The E-7 is better than the I-16  (perhaps it was being used more in the FB role). He-111 has a crappy per sortie AK rate but the sample size is small. The Ju-87 is actually a lot better, but once again small sample size, but the Il-2 is better by a bit (but not much). The 110 has the same AK percentage as the Pe-2, indicating its either being used for more air superiority missions than we think (meaning its GK/ground attack sortie may be underestimated) or that its just as able to defend itself as the Pe-2 (being on the wrong end of Xjammer a few times will show you how deadly it can be), or possibly that the Pe-2 is being intercepted less frequently. The P-40 gets a better AK than the 109E-7, perhaps not all that surprising. 

Map 2: Surprisingly, the MiG-3 has a better AK ratio than the 109F-2, though not by a lot. The E7 just barely edges out the I-16, with the P-40 superior to the E but inferior to the F in terms of ratio. The MC202 underperforms on this map, getting fewer AK per sortie than the I-16. Surprisingly, the 110E-2 has more AK/sortie than the Pe-2 this time by a decent margin - for what reason, we don't know. The Il-2 and the Ju-87 are tied in terms of AK, and the Il-2 is nearly as good as the Pe-2. 

In both maps, total air kills were very similar, while Ground kill numbers were very different. AK/sortie for both sides were very similar, with the Luftwaffe edging out the VVS in map 1 and being a tie in map 2. This, despite the Luftwaffe generating a higher proportion of fighter sorties. 

Obviously this is a simplistic analysis but I think it shows that some of our assumptions regarding the Pe-2's usage and deadliness here must be incorrect. A couple scenarios fit the numbers.

1) Pe-2s are not encountering enemy fighters that often, so their AK/sortie is lower for that reason. Therefore, they are not being intercepted often by fighters.
2) Pe-2 gunners are not really deadlier than equivalent aircraft, but most of the time they are able to deliver ordnance before interception. Or enough get through to make it worthwhile.

Neither of these scenarios, to my mind, support imposing an airframe limit on Pe-2s other than the limit in each pilot's 'stable' already in place.

In scenario 1, a limitation on number of Pe-2s available does nothing, as they are not being shot down often by enemy fighters. Unless the limit is very small, attrition won't be enough to counter it. Scenario 1 already assumes Axis fighters are unwilling or unable to intercept the Pe-2.

In scenario 2, there is some support for the limitation on airframes eventually stopping the flow of Pe-2s, but why? What's so unfair about using Pe-2s in this way? The gunners aren't any better, its not any faster than the 110 or Ju-88 which has a similar or better GK ratio. The limitation is just to get around a real-world problem with non-radar air defense: that is, high speed bombers are highly likely to reach the target and deliver ordnance before air defense fighters can react - 'the bomber will always get through'. 

Finally, lets consider the numbers and make some broad assumptions (hooray for the Bureau of Rectal Statistics!).

In Map 1, Pe-2s generated 40% of combat sorties. If we assume that they also account for that proportion of axis air kills (total 428), we can estimate 171 Pe-2s shot down over 1167 sorties. (Perhaps LG Kathon can get better numbers, but I think he's busy and probably has better things to do, so I'll take a stab.). A per-sortie loss rate of +/-15% which is quite high for real life but not so bad for in-game. 

In Map 2, Pe-2s generated 38% of combat sorties. Therefore, we can estimate 301 Pe-2s shot down over 2008 sorties, a loss rate of +/-15% again - basically losing 1 aircraft per 7.5 sorties.

 

Using the same math, lets look at projected losses for the 110, the axis aircraft with the most similar GK rate.

In Map 1, 110s generated 17% of combat sorties (415). The VVS had 438 air kills. If we assume proportionality, we can estimate  74, a  loss rate of once again 18%
In Map 2, 110s generated 22% of combat sorties (1063). The VVS had 859 air kills. If we assume proportionality, we can estimate  189 losses, a  loss rate of once again 18%

So we have similar loss rates for the two aircraft. Total number of Pe-2s manufactured was 11400, vs. total number of 110s manufactured at 6000 and spread across two fronts. The pe-2s have roughly double the airframes manufactured, roughly double the sorties run in-game, and with a smaller overall loss rate. Obviously, this is all to be taken with a grain of salt, but we're really not approaching unsustainable numbers for the Pe-2, and if we are, its certainly unsustainable for the 110 as well.

And if the argument is that the VVS is overusing the Pe-2 in comparison to the Il-2 and this is ahistorical, I might direct folks to look at the total numbers of Ju-88 (15000), He-111 (6000)
and Ju-87 (6000), all equal or greater to the 110. None of these airframes are seeing anywhere close to their historical use rates as indicated by production proportions, and yet Pe-2s are considered to be 'spammed'.

TL;DR: Pe-2s don't look very deadly Air to Air by the numbers compared to other planes, Pe-2s don't appear to be spamming excessively, air kills on both sides are roughly equal despite a higher proportion of axis fighter sorties, and once again, if Axis wants to win they need to fly more ground attack sorties.

*I don't consider generating 40% of sorties to be spamming, that seems actually lower than the percentage of sorties that would be ground attack oriented in a real war. Given that the winning conditions of the map are mostly oriented to the ground war, at least a 50/50 ratio of attacker to fighter sorties seems entirely reasonable, and when the Pe-2 is so much more survivable than the Il-2, you can't punish players for choosing the safer option when lives are limited, the point of the limitations is to make players value their lives, right?

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Posted (edited)

Hi.
In this edition, I am noticing that it is very difficult to destroy targets on the ground (depots, buildings).
With the PE2 and 4 pumps of 250 kg, I barely get success, even dropping the bombs very close to the target ....
Are they harder ???

 

 

 

Depot

2019-5-24-17-18-53-objetivo-depot

 

 

2019-5-24-17-19-8las-sueltas

 

 

 

 

2019-5-24-17-19-9-2-suelta

 

 

2019-5-24-17-19-10-todas-las-sueltas

 

results ... only 1 success  ((

2019-5-24-17-19-42resultado

 

greetings to all   .Ala13_Antiguo  

 

 

Edited by Ala13_Antiguo

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4 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

Ju-87 with 1000kg. 

 

 

Siddy, please make some video where you kill 4 tanks with SC1000. Seems that you do not understand the difference between 4x250, 10x100 and 2x500 +4x50.

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Yes there is something with Buildings... 

My Mates report this too to me. 

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1 hour ago, =LG=Kathon said:

All AA is bugged in the same way. 

If only we had 150 octain bugs the Russian bias wouldn't be so metta. 🤩

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Yes. We dropped 4 tons of bombs in total on a defence position and hurt 1 AAA, and destroyed 1 building, in 0820. Even the fuel tanks were invulnerable. The defences were not hurt before yet.

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7 hours ago, Ropalcz said:

 

I am not Polish. Your wannabe-funny joke just made you even more laughable.

 

Maybe "Lighten up, Francis" is a bit more your speed?

 

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I see here a long problem on early Maps. The Russian Side have only the Pe2 for Bombing. They need early Bombers.. Mayby SB3 or TB3 or other Bombers. 

But the Player will only take the best aviable Plane. 

So we have to limit the higher using Plane and it is the Pe2 on the first Maps.

Sure on Both Sides.(Me110)

A other Problem is the Tailgunner and the DM Model of this Pe2. But this is a clear DEV. Problem and have nothing to search here in TAW Forum

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Posted (edited)

I don't really think the PE-2 situation is that complex. 

I think it's a mixture of a questionable damage model combined with a deadly set of defensive weaponry that makes them both survivable and very hard to attack without a large group of support.   If they were being shot down at a higher ratio in comparison to their use it wouldn't be as big of a deal.    But with the lives system in place making people hesitant about bouncing them in all but the best situations, Axis pilots are just leaving them alone.  Nobody wants to throw away pilots and planes.  

I've never thought that the rear gunners are that out of whack.  They have a great threat angle and people should get punished if they hang around in a PE-2's 6.  What I would like to see looked at is the damage model.  Emptying entire magazines of cannon fire at engine nacelles and wing roots with very little effect is rough.  Especially when the legendary "concrete plane", the IL-2, goes down with a quarter of the ordinance in comparison to the PE-2.  

This is compounded early in the campaign when the E-7 is the primary interceptor.   You get exactly one pass at a PE-2 with any chance of survival, or in most cases, catching it at all.   And I think I can count on one hand the number of times in the past 6 or so campaigns I've taken down a PE-2 in a single lucky attack.  

Edited by [JG52t]whitecrow

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22 minutes ago, JG4_Widukind said:

I see here a long problem on early Maps. The Russian Side have only the Pe2 for Bombing. They need early Bombers.. Mayby SB3 or TB3 or other Bombers. 

But the Player will only take the best aviable Plane. 

So we have to limit the higher using Plane and it is the Pe2 on the first Maps.

Sure on Both Sides.(Me110)

Why didn't the number of Pe-2s bother you in previous wars, when the blue ones constantly won Map 1?
The planeset  has not changed since that time

On 5/13/2019 at 3:35 PM, =LG=Kathon said:

I have relaxed the limits between the sides so now more players can spawn without waiting in the queue.

Perhaps a numerical advantage again plays too great a value.

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Posted (edited)

[Edited]

 

6. It is forbidden to discuss the actions of moderators and administrators in any form on the forum. All questions are to be sent via "personal message" to the administrator/moderator.

 

Please get your facts right before such an accusation.

 

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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30 minutes ago, WokeUpDead said:

Near the end of Map 2 (Moscow North, #139) yesterday I damaged and was damaged by a 109 F-4: http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=31648&name=WokeUpDead. I thought the F-4 wasn't available until Map 3? Or is the TAW Manual out of date? (http://taw-server.de/manual.php)


That was very much Map 3.  :)   I remember attacking you as my last sortie of the evening and making my way back home with an oil leak.  

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1 minute ago, [JG52t]whitecrow said:


That was very much Map 3.  :)   I remember attacking you as my last sortie of the evening and making my way back home with an oil leak.  

 

Oh wow, you're right, the maps are rolling quickly this war...

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, [JG52t]whitecrow said:

I don't really think the PE-2 situation is that complex. 

I think it's a mixture of a questionable damage model combined with a deadly set of defensive weaponry that makes them both survivable and very hard to attack without a large group of support.   If they were being shot down at a higher ratio in comparison to their use it wouldn't be as big of a deal.    But with the lives system in place making people hesitant about bouncing them in all but the best situations, Axis pilots are just leaving them alone.  Nobody wants to throw away pilots and planes.  

I've never thought that the rear gunners are that out of whack.  They have a great threat angle and people should get punished if they hang around in a PE-2's 6.  What I would like to see looked at is the damage model.  Emptying entire magazines of cannon fire at engine nacelles and wing roots with very little effect is rough.  Especially when the legendary "concrete plane", the IL-2, goes down with a quarter of the ordinance in comparison to the PE-2.  

This is compounded early in the campaign when the E-7 is the primary interceptor.   You get exactly one pass at a PE-2 with any chance of survival, or in most cases, catching it at all.   And I think I can count on one hand the number of times in the past 6 or so campaigns I've taken down a PE-2 in a single lucky attack.  

 

Considering that most pilots looking for Pe-2 kills waste a lot of ammo hammering away or missing their follow-up shots when their first shot already doomed the plane to 2 minutes or less,  I'd say the damage model is pretty good.  Most of the time, it's the attacker's own lack of patience that's overpowered.   Hit the damn thing and let it scamper off to die.  Trust me, they don't get home with one engine very often.   

Edited by =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ
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Well I have read all your posts about the RED side winning both maps and I think there is only three true facts.

  1. This is just a game created by humans from a bunch of 1s and 0s and thus it will never be perfect.
  2. One side will either win or draw with multiple reasons for either possible outcome.
  3. None of it all really matters at the end of the day because it if just virtual reality. The 1st of which was brought to us by Marie Antoinette - bless her heart!

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, StG77_Kondor said:

[edited]

 

The post is visible now in two places, general bug reports and in the MP bug section... Perhaps the original was just moved? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, [JG52t]whitecrow said:

I don't really think the PE-2 situation is that complex. 

I think it's a mixture of a questionable damage model combined with a deadly set of defensive weaponry that makes them

 

It's worth noting that all Pe-2's are not created equal in the defensive weapons department. I fly the Pe-2 a lot, my preference is for the earlier -35 series, and I have noticed that the only time I get an air kill with my AI gunners is when I fly the -87 series with the turret option. Which so far is only once.

 

Equally from my experiences the Pe-2 damage model is no better or worse than any other aircraft I fly. The majority of times I have been hit by AA or EA fire in any Pe-2 I have been downed, if not immediately, then shortly afterwards. I have so far only made it back to base three times after being hit and only managed to land in one piece twice and then only once on one engine, a landing I was pretty  lucky to make and quite proud of :) 

 

It's been said here before, but it needs to be said often. If you fly right up behind a bomber your not going to hit much and he's going to hit you. If fly your attack from the side, you have a much better chance of hitting something worth hitting and less chance of being hit yourself, like engines or even PK. If you hit a Pe-2 in an engine, it's over not long afterwards for the Pe-2.

Edited by Pict
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

[Edited] 

The problem was reposted again yesterday evening here. 

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
False claims on quoted post

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14 minutes ago, =LG=Piciu said:

The problem was reposted again yesterday evening here. 

 

 

Wow. This video is amazing. I hope the bug will be solved.

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Posted (edited)

 

 

Thanks to the 109 Escorts !!!!!!!! almost 1 hour with us

@JG4_Kruger and the others !!!!!

Edited by FA_Hogan
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2 hours ago, FA_Hogan said:

 

 

Thanks to the 109 Escorts !!!!!!!! almost 1 hour with us

@JG4_Kruger and the others !!!!!

My U2 was not far from there. Saw you. Beautiful sight)

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4 hours ago, FA_Hogan said:

 

 

Thanks to the 109 Escorts !!!!!!!! almost 1 hour with us

@JG4_Kruger and the others !!!!!

Coming across this as a red is a wet dream come true

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Hello, both German depots are okay, but German equipment is locked (for example 20mm gunpods on G2 and F4). 

Maybe there is a bug, or I misunderstood something.  🙏😉

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I got a question about cities. Are cities a bombing target, i.e. do they contain objects which one has to destroy?

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, [DBS]El_Marta said:

I got a question about cities. Are cities a bombing target, i.e. do they contain objects which one has to destroy?

 

No, they are not. 

Edited by =LG=Piciu

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