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Tactical Air War

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23 minutes ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

There are bugs for sure, some people yesterday were receiving 2 kills for 1 shot down plane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, more than the imbalance this morning (which is countered by an imbalance in favor of Germans during the afternoon), the problem is the complete lack of strategy on German side.

 

Yesterday evening we could have taken Brykovo by all focusing it. I said it in-game, ZERO REPLY. The problem is that German tanks were also attacking Lotoshino at the same time. And I don't know why, every German attacked Lotoshino instead of focusing Brykovo.
BRYKOVO IS ONE BASE AWAY FROM RUSSIAN SOUTH DEPOT = if we took it, the Russian depot was doomed.

Result :
- Lotoshino was captured, Byrkovo was untouched.

- Russian depot was not finished, and during the night as always Russians counter-attacked hard and pushed us back west.

- Russian depot is still there, and self-repaired over the night.

 

= everything done by Germans yesterday was reduced to zero, because everybody focused a goddamn useless airfield in the center of the map instead of focusing a strategic one.

 

 

Meanwhile, VVS is winning hard by plane attrition, and the only solution for German is to win by territory domination.
Which will never happen because the strategy is (almost) inexistant blue side (kuddos to the few ones who try to bring strategy into German side, they will recognize themselves).

Yes, previous campaign was won by the blues because there was much better co-operation. Now the reds are winning because of the same thing.

 

Not that hard to understand exactly. But I'm sure someone will find screenshot to show that it's wrong

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3 hours ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Yes, previous campaign was won by the blues because there was much better co-operation. Now the reds are winning because of the same thing.

 

Not that hard to understand exactly. But I'm sure someone will find screenshot to show that it's wrong


Previous campaign was a Blue tidal wave primarily because of Ju-52 being a +1 plane. Now that it's not, Blue is having trouble capturing AFs in the conventional method of shepherding their columns and taking out defenses. 

Having played both sides extensively, both have about the same level of cooperation. Some squads in particular are better than others, but as a whole it's about as equal as can be.

Edited by StG77_Kondor
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22 minutes ago, StG77_Kondor said:


Previous campaign was a Blue tidal wave primarily because of Ju-52 being a +1 plane. Now that it's not, Blue is having trouble capturing AFs in the conventional method of shepherding their columns and taking out defenses. 

Having played both sides extensively, both have about the same level of cooperation. Some squads in particular are better than others, but as a whole it's about as equal as can be.

See?

 

When the whining was at the peak point in last campaign, and normal yelling about the Ju-52 raged, it was shown that in that map running there were no para drops at all. If you have been here, I'm sure you remember.

 

It did not stop the whining though.

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1 hour ago, StG77_Kondor said:

Having played both sides extensively, both have about the same level of cooperation. Some squads in particular are better than others, but as a whole it's about as equal as can be.

 

Call me when you will see 15 Ju88 escorted by ~5 fighters like this :

 

58 minutes ago, [GCA]T1m270 said:

Very fun flight from a night this week, think it got up to 15 pe2's with ~5 fighter escort.

 

CdYqh.jpg 

 

 

Never saw more than 5 bombers in formation on German side :/

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If that was really a coordinated mission, it was great.

I spawned by chance at the right time. Maybe some others. Great show, followed by a good fight over the blue factory. 👍

 

41 minutes ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

Never saw more than 5 bombers in formation on German side 😕

Never saw more than one. 😏

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1 hour ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

Call me when you will see 15 Ju88 escorted by ~5 fighters like this 

 

It would be 5 Ju-88s escorted by 15 109s.

 

The most I've seen this campaign was three He-111s with two 109s.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas
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Personally I've seen 4 111s + 1 110, escorted by 2 fighters

 


Oh and I counted 13 109s over an unattacked defensive position, circling at 5k alt and doing nothing useful :dry:

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1 hour ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

Call me when you will see 15 Ju88 escorted by ~5 fighters like this :

 

Never saw more than 5 bombers in formation on German side :/


Just a few campaigns ago...

Some squads do it (much) better than others. But it's not as simple as a Blue v Red problem. 

 

Edited by StG77_Kondor
Why not

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Just now, StG77_Kondor said:


Just a few campaigns ago...

 

 

I was talking about the current campaign only...

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1 minute ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

I was talking about the current campaign only...


That wasn't clear in your general comment but OK. 

It might be time to convince some more 109 only pilots to fly bombers. And talk to the very good solo bomber pilots that are in Blue team to work as a team and hit targets other than depots as a group. 

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15 minutes ago, StG77_Kondor said:

It might be time to convince some more 109 only pilots to fly bombers. 

 

We are quite a few people trying to convince Hartmanns to do something else but eh...

Two days ago, we had to defend our north depot, attacked by two Russian tank columns. We were at least 3 to ask to every pilot to bring bombs on tank columns, even 109s to do jabo missions.
I spawned at north airfield, and I looked around me.
4 109s there, taking off from parking (one failed and crashed into a static plane...), without bomb, and going somewhere south *facepalm*

 

GG to the Russian side, quite an easy win for you.

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3 hours ago, StG77_Kondor said:


Previous campaign was a Blue tidal wave primarily because of Ju-52 being a +1 plane. Now that it's not, Blue is having trouble capturing AFs in the conventional method of shepherding their columns and taking out defenses. 
 


And why should it make any bad difference between 'Ju52 is a +1 or not'?
You drop paratroopers and get shot down.
Ju52 is lost for that map in the previous case (+1 plane) but available for the next map.
You fly a good mission afterwards (+3 CM reached or even better allready got 3 CM as backup)
and the Ju52 is available instantly again in the same map...

 

Deci

 

 

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2 minutes ago, JG4_Deciman said:


And why should it make any bad difference between 'Ju52 is a +1 or not'?
You drop paratroopers and get shot down.
Ju52 is lost for that map in the previous case (+1 plane) but available for the next map.
You fly a good mission afterwards (+3 CM reached or even better allready got 3 CM as backup)
and the Ju52 is available instantly again in the same map...

 

Deci

 

 

 

 

When Ju-52 is a +1 every goofball can, once a map, do a kamikaze mission to drop some troops in a zone if one is available, then go fly his 109 or whatever.

 

Almost nobody wants to use his CM to replace a Ju-52, rather a 109 or maybe 110.  So only those who self-select themselves as Ju-52 pilots will make the effort, which is good because it is a powerful tool.

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4 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

When Ju-52 is a +1 every goofball can, once a map, do a kamikaze mission to drop some troops in a zone if one is available, then go fly his 109 or whatever.

 

Almost nobody wants to use his CM to replace a Ju-52, rather a 109 or maybe 110.  So only those who self-select themselves as Ju-52 pilots will make the effort, which is good because it is a powerful tool.

It will stay a powerfull tool in any case.
But you don't need to give 3 CM for a Ju.
If I read it correctly you'll get a Ju additional to any plane received by 3 CM's

 

And pilots having no planes except the +1's will hardly be able do trop troopers somewhere, even if they have a Ju52....

 

Edited by JG4_Deciman

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8 hours ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

Basically the in-game system gives the kill to the pilot who made the most damage, while TAW system gives the kill to the last pilot who damaged the enemy.

I don't know if it's the exact way how TAW system works, but it looks like this.

It works in different way. If a kill is reported in a log file then an attacker and a victim is read from the log file.

 

But very often if a victim is only damaged and he crashes it is reported in log files as "victim killed victim" or there is no id of the attacker at all ( it's a bug reported a very long time ago) so its not possible to get real attacker from the log file. In that case the script gets the last pilot who damaged this victim.

 

I have a plan to change it to pilot who made the most damage.

 

 

8 hours ago, 335th_GRDaedalos said:

 

It has to be a bug somewhere. I have not awarded 3 kills, which nobody else was involved. So the planes in falling down, no credit. 😞

 

Strange.

 

Can you provide the sortie link?

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2 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

It works in different way. If a kill is reported in a log file then an attacker and a victim is read from the log file.

 

But very often if a victim is only damaged and he crashes it is reported in log files as "victim killed victim" or there is no id of the attacker at all ( it's a bug reported a very long time ago) so its not possible to get real attacker from the log file. In that case the script gets the last pilot who damaged this victim.

 

I have a plan to change it to pilot who made the most damage.

 

Oh ok thanks for the clarification, I understand better now!

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6 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

It works in different way. If a kill is reported in a log file then an attacker and a victim is read from the log file.

 

But very often if a victim is only damaged and he crashes it is reported in log files as "victim killed victim" or there is no id of the attacker at all ( it's a bug reported a very long time ago) so its not possible to get real attacker from the log file. In that case the script gets the last pilot who damaged this victim.

 

I have a plan to change it to pilot who made the most damage.

 

 

Could it be possible to award fractional kills?  Example: 2 pilots involved each get a 0.5 kill credit if they both did a certain level of damage.

Edited by Kilrain

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24 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

When Ju-52 is a +1 every goofball can, once a map, do a kamikaze mission to drop some troops in a zone if one is available, then go fly his 109 or whatever.

 

Almost nobody wants to use his CM to replace a Ju-52, rather a 109 or maybe 110.  So only those who self-select themselves as Ju-52 pilots will make the effort, which is good because it is a powerful tool.


Correct. And even though that Ju-52 got shot down after or even before dropping the FJ's...the same pilot can try again next mission. Eventually so many Red resources have to be diverted to first - find the drop zone, and then patrol the drop zone for the entire map to guard the base. This in turn affects how many Reds are available to be elsewhere. Again - I don't mind this (actually it's one of my favorite parts of TAW) because it adds another element to teamwork and target prioritization. Difference being in that Red could play their cards right one mission, stop enough Ju-52s from doing their paradrop, but then next mission have to do it all over again because everyone that tried it can try again in another fresh +1 Ju-52. 

One could make the argument that this makes Blue protecting their own tank columns unimportant, as it might be easier to first bomb and damage the target airfield in bombers/jabos to the point that you can paradrop FJs. Then organize a massive flight of 6+ Ju-52's with appropriate escort and capture the AF. This allows the 109 pilots to get their kills as most Red pilots will be target fixated on easy Ju-52 kills. But more importantly it gives Blue the ability to capture an AF in just two mission cycles. 

But what do I know, I'm a TAW noob apparently.:pilot:

Edited by StG77_Kondor
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4 minutes ago, StG77_Kondor said:

~wordswordswords~

 

 

Another factor is that the number of drop zones is unlimited.  I've seen 5-6 drop zones during one mission.

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8 hours ago, I./JG1_Pragr said:

 Anyway I'm surprised that nobody is complaining now when the server is flooded by 20+ VVS  fighting against 0 LW ;)

 

 

 

 

Actually, we have. I'm VVS now and when it gets to this kind of stack I don't play. Myself and others have been suggesting regional based sign up sheets.

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1 hour ago, =LG=Kathon said:

It works in different way. If a kill is reported in a log file then an attacker and a victim is read from the log file.

 

But very often if a victim is only damaged and he crashes it is reported in log files as "victim killed victim" or there is no id of the attacker at all ( it's a bug reported a very long time ago) so its not possible to get real attacker from the log file. In that case the script gets the last pilot who damaged this victim.

 

I have a plan to change it to pilot who made the most damage.

I've also had multiple times that, I get a kill after I have bailed out, and am not credited said kill in TAW (in game i do get credited). Note that this not always the case, sometimes TAW credits me the kill too

 

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=31381&name==FSB=HandyNasty

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1 hour ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

We are quite a few people trying to convince Hartmanns to do something else but eh...

Two days ago, we had to defend our north depot, attacked by two Russian tank columns. We were at least 3 to ask to every pilot to bring bombs on tank columns, even 109s to do jabo missions.
I spawned at north airfield, and I looked around me.
4 109s there, taking off from parking (one failed and crashed into a static plane...), without bomb, and going somewhere south *facepalm*

 

GG to the Russian side, quite an easy win for you.

Jeeze that sounds like Hell, from a VVS Players perspective of most of our pilots can fly either fighter or bomber or dont mind bringing bomb loads with their fighter.

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13 minutes ago, MentalishMan said:

Jeeze that sounds like Hell, from a VVS Players perspective of most of our pilots can fly either fighter or bomber or dont mind bringing bomb loads with their fighter.

I'd say that it's because without a bomb, the Russian fighters are slightly outclassed by German fighters. So why not bring a bomb anyway?

Edited by [TWB]Sketch
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2 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

Another factor is that the number of drop zones is unlimited.  I've seen 5-6 drop zones during one mission.

Are you sure? Maybe you confuse undiscovered supply convoy area (white circle) with drop zones?

 

 

1 hour ago, =FSB=HandyNasty said:

I've also had multiple times that, I get a kill after I have bailed out, and am not credited said kill in TAW (in game i do get credited). Note that this not always the case, sometimes TAW credits me the kill too

 

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=31381&name==FSB=HandyNasty

What is wrong in this sortie? I don't get it.

 

You damaged Ju-88 which was shot down by other Il-2 mod.1941 and then you damaged and shot down Bf 109 F-2. In the sorties list there is AK=1.

 

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34 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

Are you sure? Maybe you confuse undiscovered supply convoy area (white circle) with drop zones?

 


@=LG=Kathon I think he means that Red could have all their AFs (as long as they have the 'Attack' wording under them) damaged enough to allow FJs to capture it. In other words, it's not just one drop zone per map. 

Edited by StG77_Kondor
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55 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

What is wrong in this sortie? I don't get it.

 

You damaged Ju-88 which was shot down by other Il-2 mod.1941 and then you damaged and shot down Bf 109 F-2. In the sorties list there is AK=1.

oh wow i didn't see the IL2 hits... :dash::dash:

 

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16 hours ago, I./JG1_Pragr said:

Hopefully I don't start any balance flame again. But the numbers have been relatively well balanced during CET prime time last three days. It almost exactly correlates with the map #3 start. Anyway I'm surprised that nobody is complaining now when the server is flooded by 20+ VVS  fighting against 0 LW ;)

 

 

 

Well admin doesn't really have any control over this - unless they decide to add a simple code. It's very easy, just limit both side not to have more than x number of players more for than the other. Whatever that # is fine - right now it is LW:4 VVS:24 earlier it was even greater than that. My guess is VVS just killing ground targets.

 

I can't see anything but upside here - now you don't have to worry about imbalance. No more asking how many squads are flying RED/BLUE and what time zone - which is just guessing and doesn't pan out like that (in finance how many times does your fiscal budget = actual, answer is never! - this is why you have forecasts, so you can constantly tweak (...because of new and better information) where you will end up at the end of the year).

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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10 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

LW:20 VVS:53 WTF!

But its A-Okay when the LW are Stacked 52 to 20VVS or worse when the major Axis Operations are going on. Its a common place to just accept that at different time zones some players may be more active than others, but too be fair the 20 LW pilots are probably all flying out BF 109s and not cooperating for JABO or ground strike missions. 

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22 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 right now it is LW:4 VVS:24 earlier it was even greater than that. My guess is VVS just killing ground targets.

 

35 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

LW:20 VVS:53 WTF!

 

Interesting how you decide to pick the time that benefits your argument and choose to ignore when it's been 50-20 or so on previous maps during most of EU time (most day). Also is a "scape goat" to distract you from the fact that even with those numbers favouring LW, yesterday,  we managed to focus on important targets and defended our AFs, killed tank columns and captured some territory. Also did that in the morning were there were 18 blues (mostly CHN squads) vs 4 of us, and we managed to defend important tank columns. 

 

You are right, 25-3 is not fun, but hey, after being outnumbered most of other times, or everytime on map 1 with blue stacking sides up to 60+ vs 20 ...i think is not that unfair that this time we get to "relax" a little bit sometimes. So, there is some kind of balance in this imbalance.

 

I think all the changes Kathon and team did for this TAW are great:

 

1. Made Ju-52 +1

2. Unable to spawn from AFs when diff in quorum it's high

3. Balance between depots strength and tank columns

4. Planeset spot on so far

 

I would recommend for future ones in order to make balance even better:

 

1. Cap slots to 45 (or similar number). No more than 45 pilots can join one side

2. Also add to that previous point, a reduction in damage % depending on difference in numbers on the server. For instance, if one side has 30 guys and the other 5, just make some kind of algorithm that reduces the effectivness of the bigger side damage. 

 

S!

 

 

 

Edited by 666GIAP_Chimango
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7 hours ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

 

1. Cap slots to 45 (or similar number). No more than 45 pilots can join one side

2. Also add to that previous point, a reduction in damage % depending on difference in numbers on the server. For instance, if one side has 30 guys and the other 5, just make some kind of algorithm that reduces the effectivness of the bigger side damage. 

 

S!


1) Yes. Even a hard cap of 50 could work. I think this allows more wiggle room. 50 vs 34 is still pretty good.
2) No, I don't think this is a good idea. The team with 30 will still have to deal with AA the same as the team with 5 does. I think a hard cap per side is good, but to have an algorithm to recalculate damage? No gracias :). The pilots on both teams don't need an additional handicap or charity. 

Edited by StG77_Kondor
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1 hour ago, StG77_Kondor said:


1) Yes. Even a hard cap of 50 could work. I think this allows more wiggle room. 50 vs 34 is still pretty good.
2) No, I don't think this is a good idea. The team with 30 will still have to deal with AA the same as the team with 5 does. I think a hard cap per side is good, but to have an algorithm to recalculate damage? No gracias :). The pilots on both teams don't need an additional handicap or charity. 

 

Right ! Limit for 50 pilots is totally OK. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, StG77_Kondor said:


1) Yes. Even a hard cap of 50 could work. I think this allows more wiggle room. 50 vs 34 is still pretty good.
2) No, I don't think this is a good idea. The team with 30 will still have to deal with AA the same as the team with 5 does. I think a hard cap per side is good, but to have an algorithm to recalculate damage? No gracias :). The pilots on both teams don't need an additional handicap or charity. 

 

1) Agree. That's why i said 45 or similar; anything between 45 and a maximum of 50 would be OK.


2) Yes, but dealing with AAA in huge numbers with clear skies is a walk in the park. TAW is a PvP competition...if someone wants to have an easier time with no human fighter opposition, he should join a COOP server. Is not fair for both teams who fight in equal conditions during most of the day (if the cap limitation starts to apply) to see that during early A.M times (Midnight through 6AM) there are guys destroying all their efforts in two map loads. 

 

The algorythm i think of  would work only when a certain number of pilots one side has it's reached, let's say 25 for instance, and the difference in team quorum exceeds let's say 3:1. So, there are 25v5? Ok, then the damage to the map targets count as 0.75 instead of 1.0. They will have their kills and their fun...but won't tilt to one side the map outcome when nobody is opposing them and keep the competition high during times where most people joins the server. I think this would be fair, and would prevent the ground pounding speculation "hey, few guys in the other team...let's join now and pound some sh*t while they sleep".

If you don't like this idea, then propose another one instead to make hugely  uneven quorums less vital to the map outcome.

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Last mission allied tanks attacking Gromoslavka had blue labels as well as axis planes when watching in replay. Is that a bug? 

Another thing is the rain with blues sky. I know it can happen but is not usual. I think it should be more white. 

Edited by Jr_Lt_Tatanov

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After everyone got tired of listening to my pleading to organise we finally got together and managed to get things done. Thanks Centx, flesch, Serenity, 335th, Stoltz and Wagner. Apologies if I forget someone else. Awesome work.

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7 hours ago, StG77_Kondor said:


1) Yes. Even a hard cap of 50 could work. I think this allows more wiggle room. 50 vs 34 is still pretty good.
2) No, I don't think this is a good idea. The team with 30 will still have to deal with AA the same as the team with 5 does. I think a hard cap per side is good, but to have an algorithm to recalculate damage? No gracias :). The pilots on both teams don't need an additional handicap or charity. 

 

1. I agree 50 vs 34 isn't bad. It's less than a 2:1 but wouldn't +10 max be better. When you have 30 on one side, the max on the other is 40.

2. If you are looking to just shoot up AI columns and buildings (...with no aircraft to stop you) and the TAW server keep score for you to compare point to others, I am not sure that is what TAW was intended for. I think "KG-200 "LEONIDAS" Server" is perfect for you😏

 

From our IL-2 Forgotten Battles days (2000), VEF, VOW, CW, SEOW and others made this about pilot vs pilot, with some mud moving elements. However, with this being 90% ground target based and 10% fighter combat based - the #2 point is the problem. The map will move substantially to either side when a few (...Ok a lot) ground pounders what to play target practice with not fighter cover to stop them.

 

As just a user - we have no say. However, when I see 30 vs 10 I am not joining, even if the side with 30 is LW. I just updated DCS last night. 

 

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1 hour ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

 However, with this being 90% ground target based and 10% fighter combat based - the #2 point is the problem. The map will move substantially to either side when a few (...Ok a lot) ground pounders what to play target practice with not fighter cover to stop them.

 

 

94% of sorties flown by the Axis side are in fighters.  You're blinded by your own biases here.

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Hello, on this glorious day, 5 brave JU52, and 2 Bf109 pilots took off to drop paratroopers near an ennemy Airfield.
Here's some pictures taken during the flight, from 109 POV.
Thanks to eveybody implied in this, fun sortie and great experience :)
20181209174334_1.thumb.jpg.a10db9d6eeb969cf0d470ff26edac689.jpg

20181209173849_1.jpg

20181209174902_1.jpg

20181209175704_1.jpg

20181209175930_1.jpg

20181209180113_1.jpg

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