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Tactical Air War

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7 minutes ago, =FEW=N3croo said:

Yer-2 anybody? .50 cals anybody?

Or literally a single real medium bomber for the allied side to show up?

Literally 90% of encounters are fighters and most cannot take their time to setup and aim for the proper weakpoints. If the Pe-2 puts its nose down and speeds up and points both gunners at you: shit out of luck, you gotta wait till you get a better angle

 

110s Ju88s dont randomly fall apart either, you still have to tag the engines or whack them hard enough in a single spot

 

 

1280px-15th_AF_B-24_Liberator.jpg

 

There's a reason the german focused so heavily on firepower from 43 onwards

Gib B-25 Mitchell, B-26 Marauder or A-26 Invaded Pls, I would love to have another Medium Bomber of decent capacity for the Allies. 

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5 hours ago, =FEW=N3croo said:

 

There's a reason the german focused so heavily on firepower from 43 onwards

 

Yes, namely B-24 and B-17 but definitely not Pe2 🙄 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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Quick question : what triggers a tank attack?

I feel like Russian tanks are always attacking, while Germans are stuck in defensive on almost every mission.

Is there a way to enhance the chance of having a tank attack on next mission?

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19 minutes ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

Quick question : what triggers a tank attack?

I feel like Russian tanks are always attacking, while Germans are stuck in defensive on almost every mission.

Is there a way to enhance the chance of having a tank attack on next mission?

Attacking the Airfield directly I think. 

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6 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Attacking the Airfield directly I think. 

 

I guess no, because if it depends on airfield damages, why is there a Russian tank column attacking Temkino right now (11% damaged) and not a German tank column attacking Zenino? (50% damaged)

 

It's annoying, during the last 3 maps (including the one being played right now) Russians had 5 offensive tank column, Germans only one (and a really bad one, since it tried to attack Ryabinki = the column was completely wiped out of the map in 30 minutes...)

Edited by -IRRE-Centx

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2 hours ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Yes, namely B-24 and B-17 but definitely not Pe2 🙄 

By 1941 none of those where around and the RAAF was dabbling with .303s. and germany fucking around with slow velocity mg FFs.

Pe-2s have more solid gunner angles are pretty maneuverable and are faster than any german bomber at pretty much any altitude yet they are still soviet garbage machines in your eyes.

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16 hours ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

You don't get it, do you?

People told about historical attack pattern and you start telling stuff about some (unhistoric) hacks to manage some attacks without getting killed. And start about "instant gratification crowd". In a sim. In a dead is dead online campaign. People who do ground attack. That's just hilarious..well and disgusting. We don't need that.

 

Nothing is fine. Pe2s fell like flies against 109s in the real world, in early parts of the war there were k/d between 12 and 20:1. Bombers have always been easy prey when not protected by fighters, even B-17 or B-24, which are on a whole different level then Pe-2s (both in durability and weaponry). I understand that the Red lone wolfs who are used to do their attack runs mostly unscathed don't like the prospect, but the current situation couldn't be further away from reality. 

About AAA Klaus already said everything that has to be said, nothing to add.  

hacks?  The tactic where one plane is distracting the air defenses while other is taking it out, was widely used with much success during Wietnam war, middle east conflicts and so on. Its hardly a hack. it was developed do decrease the looses where relatively small flights were attacking defended targets (more or less like taw ). When we would talk historic ww2 , You would have to come with at least 12-24 planes attack formations (or as it was even more common  - several squadrons). attack with 12 planes (or even 6) on Taw a target from several directions and see what happens.

 

If You attack all from one direction it'll be like a Black friday:  Quote " on 9 February, Milson led  32 Beaufighters into the air from Dallachy... The strike force was joined by either ten or twelve P-51 Mustang fighters from No. 65 Squadron RAF... The narrow confines of the fjord meant that the Beaufighters had to attack from a single direction and would not be able to swamp the German defences as they normally sought to do... Aftermtch : the German ships had shot down seven Beaufighters…"

 

As for PE2: quote: "Pe-2s crews had the greatest success in repelling the attacks of enemy fighters in June and July 1941. On 1 July, for example, six Pe-2s fended off attacks by four Messerschmitt Bf 109s, shooting down two of them. A week later a group of Pe-2s was attacked by four Bf 109 and again brought down two of the attackers. On both occasions the Petlyakovs suffered no losses..."  "German pilots soon discovered the limited sighting angles of the ventral gun mounting" - so maybe You are not learning from your mistakes like the LW did and your attack angles are not so superb …

 

how did he hit me? I was coming form his six.. no way its unhistoric and overpowered… I'll go and whine on the forum...

 

 

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@-IRRE-Centx The more the depot is damaged the more tanks the enemy gets and also the more territory is owned by one side. Leads to a bit of a snowball effect.

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Well, a historical Issue I have is that the Pe-2-110 series Turret is available around the same time the F-4 comes in, so late 41 in TAW Terms, which makes it a early 1943 Aircraft against late 41 Aircraft. 

If you wanted to be even more particular, the more heavily armored Pe-2 with M.105PF wasn't a Thing in 1941 either, but more mid to late 1942. 

 

The Turret should only be available once the 109G-6 and 190s are available, they fall in the same Timeframe, and the 87 series should come later in general. 

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9 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Well, a historical Issue I have is that the Pe-2-110 series Turret is available around the same time the F-4 comes in, so late 41 in TAW Terms, which makes it a early 1943 Aircraft against late 41 Aircraft. 

If you wanted to be even more particular, the more heavily armored Pe-2 with M.105PF wasn't a Thing in 1941 either, but more mid to late 1942. 

 

The Turret should only be available once the 109G-6 and 190s are available, they fall in the same Timeframe, and the 87 series should come later in general. 

I'm cool with that. I avoid using the turret anyway.  It blocks my rearward visibility when being attacked on 6.  Give us tail gunner AI that can call out the attacker's position relative to the bomber and I might reconsider. 

 

The only concession I'll willingly give about AAA is that I don't recall them ever firing at more than 1 target at a time.  They all seem to concentrate fire and don't cover their 'zone'.

Edited by Mobile_BBQ

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28 minutes ago, Psyrion said:

@-IRRE-Centx The more the depot is damaged the more tanks the enemy gets and also the more territory is owned by one side. Leads to a bit of a snowball effect.

 

Ok thanks

 

Well map#2 is already lost, since many Germans seem to have no idea what to do on the map...

Russian coordination is way better, I honestly expect them to win easy the whole campaign (and they were crying about unbalance few days ago *facepalm*)

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1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Well, a historical Issue I have is that the Pe-2-110 series Turret is available around the same time the F-4 comes in, so late 41 in TAW Terms, which makes it a early 1943 Aircraft against late 41 Aircraft. 

If you wanted to be even more particular, the more heavily armored Pe-2 with M.105PF wasn't a Thing in 1941 either, but more mid to late 1942. 

 

The Turret should only be available once the 109G-6 and 190s are available, they fall in the same Timeframe, and the 87 series should come later in general. 

Valid, we still had one intermediate turret design on the "FT". Given that we still lack any medium bomber or LL later A-20 variants or B-25s i could not feel less empathy for LW only aces :coffee:

 

I still will respect actual pointing out of inaccuracies and documentation but this constant opinionated LW is stronkest shows a lack of willingness to adapt and study.

The turret is nice, but it makes no difference if the tactics aren't used by the waffles and really they rarely do a proper approach.

 

 

 image.png.94bd088cd12cc4a7c11075a53e7bff8a.pngimage.thumb.png.7be9ce86651223143e2a0f9ebe0afcf3.png

image.png.d6289466d34e8be934b8fdb7eeb40252.png

Edited by =FEW=N3croo
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2 hours ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

Ok thanks

 

Well map#2 is already lost, since many Germans seem to have no idea what to do on the map...

Russian coordination is way better, I honestly expect them to win easy the whole campaign (and they were crying about unbalance few days ago *facepalm*)

 

Winning and balance are 2 different things. *facepalm*

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4 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

hacks?  The tactic where one plane is distracting the air defenses while other is taking it out, was widely used with much success during Wietnam war, middle east conflicts and so on. Its hardly a hack. it was developed do decrease the looses where relatively small flights were attacking defended targets (more or less like taw ). When we would talk historic ww2 , You would have to come with at least 12-24 planes attack formations (or as it was even more common  - several squadrons). attack with 12 planes (or even 6) on Taw a target from several directions and see what happens.

 

If You attack all from one direction it'll be like a Black friday:  Quote " on 9 February, Milson led  32 Beaufighters into the air from Dallachy... The strike force was joined by either ten or twelve P-51 Mustang fighters from No. 65 Squadron RAF... The narrow confines of the fjord meant that the Beaufighters had to attack from a single direction and would not be able to swamp the German defences as they normally sought to do... Aftermtch : the German ships had shot down seven Beaufighters…"

 

 

 

 

There is little comparison to be made between the WW2 clash of great powers with layered state-of-the-art analog anti-aircraft guns and asymmetric conflicts with relatively anemic radar guided SAM-based air defenses.  In the event of a war between the USA and the Soviet Union in Germany during the 1980s, for example, the Soviet jets flying ground strike missions would use valleys protected by forested hills at very low altitude to attempt to move through the layered, integrated American air defense net.  If they did what works on TAW, where you send one bait plane high at 1-1.5Km altitude to hang out and attract attention, they would be vaporized.

 

With your second point:  There is also an obvious difference between a group of aircraft that could attack from any angle all attacking from a single direction and a group of aircraft that can only attack from one direction all attacking from that direction and the effect on the disposition and sighting of AA guns covering that location.

 

Make no mistake, the AA we are dealing with is this:

6q2b0wl0jmqy.jpg

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas
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4 hours ago, -IRRE-Centx said:

 

Ok thanks

 

Well map#2 is already lost, since many Germans seem to have no idea what to do on the map...

Russian coordination is way better, I honestly expect them to win easy the whole campaign (and they were crying about unbalance few days ago *facepalm*)

Says the side that can Easily Take back Airfields with Paratroopers while the Russians can only Push Airfields With tanks.😂👌

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5 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Well, a historical Issue I have is that the Pe-2-110 series Turret is available around the same time the F-4 comes in, so late 41 in TAW Terms, which makes it a early 1943 Aircraft against late 41 Aircraft. 

If you wanted to be even more particular, the more heavily armored Pe-2 with M.105PF wasn't a Thing in 1941 either, but more mid to late 1942. 

 

The Turret should only be available once the 109G-6 and 190s are available, they fall in the same Timeframe, and the 87 series should come later in general. 

 

Thing is, TaW has never been about history. The aircraft set on each map is only about balance and dependent on a kind of battle rating, how it is used in War Thunder. At least regarding fighters. What's not thought of is, that the Germans don't have anything that comes close to the overall ground attack capabilities of the Pe2. This way, the Russians almost won round 1 even though being quite outnumbered. I think TAW will be a no-contest until the 190 or the G6 arive in bigger numbers

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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2 hours ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

What's not thought of is, that the Germans don't have anything that comes close to the overall ground attack capabilities of the Pe2. This way, the Russians almost won round 1 even though being quite outnumbered. I think TAW will be a no-contest until the 190 or the G6 arive in bigger numbers.

 

I'm interested in hearing your explanation as to why the Bf-110 is below-par to a Pe-2.  I mean, besides a bunch of 109/190 pilots having to waste precious Hartmann time setting up their controls menu for twin engine flight. 

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22 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

I'm interested in hearing your explanation as to why the Bf-110 is below-par to a Pe-2.  I mean, besides a bunch of 109/190 pilots having to waste precious Hartmann time setting up their controls menu for twin engine flight. 

 

Well there is no doubt that the 110 is inferior to the Pe-2 but the Ju-88 is a great bomber that fits the meta of lines of tanks very well with its bomb loadout. Some might even argue that blue has the better ground capabilities, though the IL-2 is a great tool.

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3 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

Well there is no doubt that the 110 is inferior to the Pe-2 but the Ju-88 is a great bomber that fits the meta of lines of tanks very well with its bomb loadout. Some might even argue that blue has the better ground capabilities, though the IL-2 is a great tool.


Before this latest patch - absolutely.

 

After this patch and the way the tank DM is...well. Red's ground attack advantage is nullified. (LW still holds advantage in level bombing)

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51 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

I'm interested in hearing your explanation as to why the Bf-110 is below-par to a Pe-2.  I mean, besides a bunch of 109/190 pilots having to waste precious Hartmann time setting up their controls menu for twin engine flight. 

 

It's a lot less durable and more noticably, it's gunners are a joke compared to the Pe2. Seriously, i had my oil radiator shot up again on my first pass, diving on a Pe2 with almost 800kph. That's a joke. I was flying Russian quite a lot but can't remember a single time a German bomber actually killed my fighter off, even if i was a lot less cautios. There is a huge discrepancy right now, Pe2 is really easy mode

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Naw, Manu, you were just unlucky. Might sound embarassing, but we lost two MiGs to a StuKa which had an Ace gunner - simply entering its firing arc was enough to set the MiGs on fire. Both dove at an angle at roughly 500kph. His buddy before, the other Ju-87, had a rookie gunner which didn't hit jack scheibenkleister. Didn't see us crying "Stuka OP!!!1" on the forums though!

 

So what you're witnessing is this: You are attacking diving Pe-2s way more often than Russians are attacking diving Ju-88. Except for JG4 (rare as well!), when do we see any kind of large German bomber formations - let alone Ju-88 - diving at high speeds?

 

Couple that with random gunner ability, normal distribution, and you have a good recipe for some super stronk confirmation bias.

 

 

 

P.S. Haven't seen a single He-111 yet. Haven't seen a Ju-88 yet. Rarely see some 110s. Seen 87s once.

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Well i had this happen to me for the second time (2 of 2 actually), quite a lot of bad luck i guess. I know many people on blue (amongst them real good pilots with better then 5:1 K/D) who completely stopped attacking Pe2s, because they don't wanna get shot up without actually making a mistake. Quite understandably, after those two getting-togethers i will do it similar, even if i hate that prospect. 

When i flew Russians i never had any problems killing all sorts of German aircraft, no matter which one. No plane came close what i witnessed against the Pe2. That said, the last update seemed to change gunners, so well possible that German gunners got way more precise since as well (not in the 110 though). If that's the case, they should really be changed to rookie overall. A lone bomber/attacker without fighter cover really shouldn't make it home against a fighter who knows what he is doing. The Pe2 is probably the easiest plane to get kills right now 

 

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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My I-16 was lit on fire by 110 gunner in map #1.  pls nerf/sarcasm

Edited by Kilrain

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4 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

P.S. Haven't seen a single He-111 yet. Haven't seen a Ju-88 yet. Rarely see some 110s. Seen 87s once.


I've seen a Ju-87 once. It was dogfighting with IL-2s over blue tanks.

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5 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

P.S. Haven't seen a single He-111 yet. Haven't seen a Ju-88 yet. Rarely see some 110s. Seen 87s once. 

Oh I've seen plenty and they've met their doom, you just have to know where to look ;)

 

P.S. I actually haven't seen any 110s though

Edited by 7.GShAP/Kamm

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4 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Kamm said:

P.S. I actually haven't seen any 110s though

 

Really? :huh:
That's weird, I think 110s are the second most used German aircraft, behind 109s...
Most of them are used for ground attack, some as heavy fighters to attack Pe-2s

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If you know the pe-2 is gunna shoot you down if you attack it from the back why do people still do it and then complain on here about it?

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41 minutes ago, 392FS_Jred said:

If you know the pe-2 is gunna shoot you down if you attack it from the back why do people still do it and then complain on here about it?

 

If a Pe2 is flying away full throttle at the deck and you are in an E7 which is barely faster, it isn't really possible to attack from another angle, even with a lot of altitude advantage. The only alternative is to not attack the Pe2 at all, which by now, most people are doing. Well, lucky Pe2 pilots I guess. 

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57 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

If a Pe2 is flying away full throttle at the deck and you are in an E7 which is barely faster, it isn't really possible to attack from another angle, even with a lot of altitude advantage. The only alternative is to not attack the Pe2 at all, which by now, most people are doing. Well, lucky Pe2 pilots I guess. 

 

Maybe Pe-2 shouldn't be available before 109 F4, which is older (Combat debut: June 1941 vs July 1941 for ser. 35).

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5 minutes ago, OpticFlow said:

 

Maybe Pe-2 shouldn't be available before 109 F4, which is older (Combat debut: June 1941 vs July 1941 for ser. 35).

 

Well, as already said, TaW isn't historical but uses their own battlerating for plane sets. That said, even with an F4 it will be a problem.

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2 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Well, as already said, TaW isn't historical but uses their own battlerating for plane sets.

 

Please stop repeating this nonsense. 

 

 

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Unfortunately back in BoM days Devs sort of took the easy way and played this copy&paste technique, bringing Pe-2 ser. 35. That was a little bit disappointing since a lot of guys (me included) were counting on Il-4 as proper horizontal bomber for RED.

Either way, there is no alternative for early Soviet bomber in game right now. If you remove Pe-2 you might as well remove all depots on Map 1 and 2 since Red side wont be able to bust them just with Il-2s.

And its not like Pe-2 is totally immune, there are 110s available for Blue pilots.

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1 minute ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

Please stop repeating this nonsense. 

 

Nonsense? Apparently you have no idea about history then.

If I were you, i'd do some research when the aircraft became operational in real life. Then you will quickly realize that it has not a lot in common with the in-game plane sets

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3 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

Unfortunately back in BoM days Devs sort of took the easy way and played this copy&paste technique, bringing Pe-2 ser. 35. That was a little bit disappointing since a lot of guys (me included) were counting on Il-4 as proper horizontal bomber for RED.

Either way, there is no alternative for early Soviet bomber in game right now. If you remove Pe-2 you might as well remove all depots on Map 1 and 2 since Red side wont be able to bust them just with Il-2s.

And its not like Pe-2 is totally immune, there are 110s available for Blue pilots.

 

True to the point.

I only don't understand the last sentence. Is the 110 faster than 109E-7? Just asking.

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1 minute ago, I./JG1_Pragr said:

I only don't understand the last sentence. Is the 110 faster than 109E-7? Just asking.

 

No, but it has more firepower and can endure more damage, so it is a "safer" method to attack Pe2s in the current scenario. 

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23 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

Nonsense? Apparently you have no idea about history then.

If I were you, i'd do some research when the aircraft became operational in real life. Then you will quickly realize that it has not a lot in common with the in-game plane sets

 

You are spreading lies when saying that the TAW devs have some sort of battlerating for planes. I also won't engage in some sort of history battle with a wikipedia warrior.

 

With the current aircrafts available it is impossible to create a 100% accurate historical setting, mostly because engine settings are fixed and can't be changed for aircrafts. That being said, they try to find a healthy mix between historical settings and balance. While I'd like to be more on the historical side, there are some valid points for changing minor things for balance.

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7 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

You are spreading lies when saying that the TAW devs have some sort of battlerating for planes. I also won't engage in some sort of history battle with a wikipedia warrior.

 

With the current aircrafts available it is impossible to create a 100% accurate historical setting, mostly because engine settings are fixed and can't be changed for aircrafts. That being said, they try to find a healthy mix between historical settings and balance. While I'd like to be more on the historical side, there are some valid points for changing minor things for balance.

 

Well, so you actually agree with me that it is actual balancing. There is no official battlerating, but the way the aircraft sets are setup, it is like an artificial battlerating. F4 coming in at the same time as the Yak (in history it was 1 year sooner, actually even before the Mig-3 we have), La-5 at the same time like 190-A3 (which came more then half a year sooner) etc. it's pretty much this case in every battle. You could create accurate historical settings - by using just the aircraft sets, the devs chose for the respective timeframes (including some more like F4 for BoM).

But TaW people decided against it because of balance (otherwise we would see F4 against Ishak at map 1, and going on like this...).

I am fine with this artificial balance. But claiming this to be historically correct is kinda ridiculous

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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34 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

F4 coming in at the same time as the Yak (in history it was 1 year sooner, actually even before the Mig-3 we have), La-5 at the same time like 190-A3 (which came more then half a year sooner) etc. it's pretty much this case in every battle. You could create accurate historical settings - by using just the aircraft sets, the devs chose for the respective timeframes (including some more like F4 for BoM).

 

That's exactly where you are mistaken. You can't compare a late F4 to an early F4. Yet in game we only have the late variant of the F4. Comparing introduction dates is therefor misleading.

 

As long as the devs don't add different engines/power settings as options (like with the La5 for example) you won't be able to make it more historical.

Edited by Operation_Ivy
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