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Tactical Air War

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I would like to put Zeebra forward for kill of the server. Came in behind a Ju87 in a Pe2 to bomb it mid flight. Hoping for a video from him ;)

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Have a small stain to report that needs removing:

 

RBGman123RBGman321, he jumps into other ppls aircraft as gunner and shoots the aircraft 




 

 


Total flight time 0h 33m

Take-offs 2

Friendly air kills 4

Friendly ground kills 1

 

Hope thats enough evidence, if needed i got the video where he shot off my tail.

 

Greetings N3croo

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Ran into the same issue myself.

From reading earlier in the thread, the option available to us is - look at the TAW website for the elapsed time before starting your first mission - then use your in game plane clock from that point on.

Thank you for that Tripwire.  Owing to the fact that I've moved over from Cliffs Of Dover, they use a similar system on the various websites, but I never thought of doing the same as usually on the other iL2 BOS servers when you press Esc you have the clock.  However, a big thank you from a bloody windy/cold ACT for replying with the answer.

 

:salute:

 

Haza

 

.

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Guys ... All the missions starts at full hour (12:00 , 13:00 , 14:00 ... etc) When you join the server in MISSION BRIEFING is info when the mission started, so if you so much hate our website and this is such huge problem to check it there, just read the briefing, go to plane and look at the clock ok?

 

=LG=Wicher

 

Thank you for taking the time (along with Tripwire) to reply to my question.  I will certainly try this next time.

 

Cheers

 

H

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So since I have been shot down twice today in my G-2 and I don't own BOM, I have to fly around five times in a Ju 87 or Heinkel for 15 min if I don't destroy anything, to get a new plane?

 

Great. These are two planes I'd never touch. I only fly single-engined fighters. Ever. 

 

So I guess your server isn't for me...

 

Pitty. I kinda liked it (except for the 225 seconds I had to wait to fly again. Time is money, so for me this is BS)...

Edited by ACG_daHeld

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So since I have been shot down twice today in my G-2 and I don't own BOM, I have to fly around five times in a Ju 87 or Heinkel for 15 min if I don't destroy anything, to get a new plane?

 

Great. These are two planes I'd never touch. I only fly single-engined fighters. Ever. 

 

So I guess your server isn't for me...

 

Pitty. I kinda liked it (except for the 225 seconds I had to wait to fly again. Time is money, so for me this is BS)...

C ya ...

  • Upvote 3

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So since I have been shot down twice today in my G-2 and I don't own BOM, I have to fly around five times in a Ju 87 or Heinkel for 15 min if I don't destroy anything, to get a new plane?

 

Great. These are two planes I'd never touch. I only fly single-engined fighters. Ever. 

 

So I guess your server isn't for me...

 

Pitty. I kinda liked it (except for the 225 seconds I had to wait to fly again. Time is money, so for me this is BS)...

 

Byyyyyeeee!  :bye:

 

Wasn´t something great.. I had taken some damage and had to get rid of my bombs while pulling away..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QqEbpvB9w0

 

Funny thing, if you do the same approach you did on those stukas, but against a pe2 you would be toast.... Also interesting to see that the pilot got killed by that bomb blast even though he was already past the point where the bomb explodes. Anyways, how did you like the server now that mission has moved over south-stalingrad area ?

Edited by Herr_Istruba

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Mission last 1:45 +/- 5min.

 

Guys ... All the missions starts at full hour (12:00 , 13:00 , 14:00 ... etc) When you join the server in MISSION BRIEFING is info when the mission started, so if you so much hate our website and this is such huge problem to check it there, just read the briefing, go to plane and look at the clock ok?

 

 I am a bit confuse here, how can this be every hour?

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Ingame Mission time starts at full hour. That is different from real-life time when the mission starts. 

It means mission load (and start) for example 15:36 (real-life) but when you check the briefing (and watch in plane after spawn), there will full hour (12:00, 14:00 etc) of ingame time.

So to estimate time left, you check briefing and see, it starts 14:00 (example). In plane you see it is 14:45. You know it is cca 1 hour (missions last 1h45min +/- 5 min) till mission end. 

 

Or you can easily go on TAW web.

Edited by III./JG1*kampf*_Loch
  • Upvote 1

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Ingame Mission time starts at full hour. That is different from real-life time when the mission starts. 

It means mission load (and start) for example 15:36 (real-life) but when you check the briefing (and watch in plane after spawn), there will full hour (12:00, 14:00 etc) of ingame time.

So to estimate time left, you check briefing and see, it starts 14:00 (example). In plane you see it is 14:45. You know it is cca 1 hour (missions last 1h45min +/- 5 min) till mission end. 

 

Or you can easily go on TAW web.

 

Oh now I see !

 

I was also a bit confused, thanks for clearing this up !

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Funny thing, if you do the same approach you did on those stukas, but against a pe2 you would be toast.... Also interesting to see that the pilot got killed by that bomb blast even though he was already past the point where the bomb explodes. Anyways, how did you like the server now that mission has moved over south-stalingrad area ?

 

The blast radius is relatively detailed modeled in BoS, which is a good thing, you can even see it affect windsocks and so on, mostly the crews in the splinteradius die, sometimes they don´t. You can even bail out, have the chute open in time and be killed by the blast radius of your own plane exploding nearby. One exception is the Ju88, it´s crew dies significantly less (in plane) from bomb blasts. On WoL Bf110 use that as air-defense mechanism.. fly low and drop a 500kg, the guy chasing you will have issues.

 

The Pe2 has only some parts of it´s damage model that are too durable.. part of the fuselage and inner wing hitboxes. The rest breaks relatively normal compared to other durable planes like the Ju88. It has no magical "reargun" sniper.. just the same ai like the rest. People with good aim who know where to shoot it can get rid of it in one or two passes. To efficently fight a Pe, you can go two ways: underside and slightly sideways on the engines means fire... or shoot the upper reargunner first and then chew your way through. The elevators come of easy, too.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZvu-7J7pPk

 

But talking of Stukas.. and Sturmoviks: I was a bit stunned when I saw the sturmo with gear out going all suicide attack on the base in best WoL style which I only discovered in the track for that previous vid...  it made me check and then I saw that Stukas and Sturmos are the unlimited planes to fill up the other planes. But people use them just like on WoL.

Once I noticed that I realized, Buzinovka was constantly attacked by single low stukas not caring much for survival with 1000kg bombs.. and the way the targets are, with fuel trucks hidden in hangars, really makes that effcient. Large bombs spammed in the general direction take those targets out easy. The hangars which render in really really late from above and if empty give 0 impact (see 2nd part of the vid above, deco boxes burn, but 0 targets hit tracked) are much harder to hit in levelbombing from altitude...  In the time (30+ min) I made one trip in a Pe to altitude and dropped the max bombload of 2x 500kg (one for fun on a stuka, one on the hangar) the red airfield had endured 3 low stuka raids with huge bombs.. so it´s clear what the effcient way is. With that, anyone can go full Drinkins on TAW, too, no fundmental difference to WoL. Not a complaint, but just a factual statement. I still had fun and like the concept.. But it is very apparent that most kills for me where stukas while the other planes are much more preserved and people use the historic de-spawn tactic once they hear sirens in anything not unlimited ;=)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1S9DKhEBLk

 

otherwise, numbers where still a bit onesided and flight distances for the russians where a bit longer, no big deal.. but I found that those who actually flew long range missions to depots in back mostly did not see much combat.. and have much less percentual influence on "winning" or "losing" as the ones just going casually and high frequency to-and-fro around the middle airbases, where the most action was. Maybe balancing targets and makeing the ones in the back worth more or having more impact would also alter that part of gameplay in the sense that "I do a mission and go there" has more value then fiddeling around middle map and motivate some to try and actually defend those things.

Edited by Dr_Zeebra

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Have a small stain to report that needs removing:

 

RBGman123RBGman321, he jumps into other ppls aircraft as gunner and shoots the aircraft

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=13509&name=RBGman123RBGman321

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=13822&name=RBGman123RBGman321

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=13525&name=RBGman123RBGman321

 

 

his profile: http://taw.stg2.de/pilot.php?name=RBGman123RBGman321

Total flight time 0h 33m

Take-offs 2

Friendly air kills 4

Friendly ground kills 1

 

Hope thats enough evidence, if needed i got the video where he shot off my tail.

 

Greetings N3croo

Be easy on the lad. It was his 2nd day ever playing il2. I doubt it was intentional. I think we all have shot a tail or 2 when trying out the Gunners for the first time.

Edited by fenderbird

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Be easy on the lad. It was his 2nd day ever playing il2. I doubt it was intentional. I think we all have shot a tail or 2 when trying out the Gunners for the first time.

shooting your own tail off unintentional 4 times in a row? very unlikely.

Edited by 216th_Jordan

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I had the same experience but with a different user - he caused me a "nice" tail wing damage with a subsequent emergency landing... :rolleyes:  as it was his third sortie out of a total of five so far (all in turrets), I'll consider it as "unintentional stupidity"  ;)

Edited by Geleitzug

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Have a small stain to report that needs removing:
 
RBGman123RBGman321, he jumps into other ppls aircraft as gunner and shoots the aircraft 
 
 
 

 

RBGman123RBGman321 banned till the end of the campaign.

 

So since I have been shot down twice today in my G-2 and I don't own BOM, I have to fly around five times in a Ju 87 or Heinkel for 15 min if I don't destroy anything, to get a new plane?

 

Great. These are two planes I'd never touch. I only fly single-engined fighters. Ever. 

 

So I guess your server isn't for me...

Ok, that is your decision. Please practice flying a little bit on the other servers so you will be ready for the next campaign ;)

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low stukas not caring much for survival with 1000kg bombs..

 

Stukas are now allowed to carry 1000kg bombs (sc1800 aswell) on TAW, just FYI.... only planes with 1000kg bomb available are ju88 and he111, which are in limited numbers. Oh and I know where to shoot the pe's, I was just pointing out the discrepancy between the gunners. Every other plane besides the pe has believeble gunners... maybe when LW get a .50cal for the rear gunner we may see toasting ivans... 

Edited by Herr_Istruba

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Killing Pe-2 is easy, all You need is to aim in the middle :lol:

I have my own way to shoot down that sturdy aircraft, but I will keep it to myself. Too many Pe-2 riders here :P

 

About balance.

I like to fly when blue are outnumbered - I've shoot down 2 times 3 aircafts flying with only 3 blue and 14 reds. Plenty of targets.

And one funny thing - reds are always outnumbered and killed more tanks and looses less aircafts :o:

Scary to think what would be if admins will increase numbers of better ac on red side :blink:

 

Ramm.

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 Every other plane besides the pe has believeble gunners...

 lol.. these conspiracy theories.. the ai is the same and damage in the mgs is not different for type of class.. I´ve been chewing around on 109s for ages with that Pe series 37 top gun.. 30 bullets and no effect. Other times just one in the right place. I´ve been doing the same with the Ju88.

 

But in any plane, the ai is useless.. while shooting for yourself is working better. But even with those heavy MGs you chew around ages on 190ies, if people don´t get the pe while beeing in the 190 it is entirely a problem of their shooting abilities. really.

 

https://youtu.be/88b9fDXmnRo?t=88

Edited by Dr_Zeebra

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Be easy on the lad. It was his 2nd day ever playing il2. I doubt it was intentional. I think we all have shot a tail or 2 when trying out the Gunners for the first time.

 

TAW is not a kindergarden.

There is plenty of places where he can go and kill friendly pilots.

 

TAW is not one of them.

 

Regards.

  • Upvote 1

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Pe series 37 top gun.. 30 bullets and no effect.

 

Pe2 s. 37 has a rifle caliber mg on top gun.... Also, you scored 2-3 hits only on that 190 in that video you showed (you can see the smoke puffs), all bullets were passing above him. I have no problem taking down bombers with the 190, it has 4 cannons, no one should have trouble with it. I think you missed my point... I dont think its that hard to bring down Pe'2s, but while the gunners on the pe are somewhat usefull, the gunners in others planes arent, and its not about the gun, because the gunner in the IL2 also has a .50cal, but I have yet to see it hitting any plane...  :lol:

Edited by Herr_Istruba

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I got an issue with my experience points.

If I die lost points but since 10 or 12 missions the experience don't add more points.

I survive and land with some ground objects destroyed in the last 6 missions and not even earn 1 point of experience.

The server hate me maybe or I missing something?

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I got an issue with my experience points.

If I die lost points but since 10 or 12 missions the experience don't add more points.

I survive and land with some ground objects destroyed in the last 6 missions and not even earn 1 point of experience.

The server hate me maybe or I missing something?

You might be in minus points (-2000) but the page only displays it as 0.

 

Either that or the server indeed hates you :P

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TY Xenos, you make me feel better  :biggrin:

Looks like I will be Sergeant all my life.

 

Well, could be worse - could be Private :biggrin::P

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 Please, ban this pilot because he straffed me then dropped bomb on my He-111 while I was standing on the runway

 

 

i guess i remember that situation when the frontlineairfield was ready to capture under attack in red marks (still in our control) and thought enemy is landing to capture ,bomb gone , doubts coming up wether it was a friend or not, now i know and im sorry thst youre the second friendlyfire i have to account for in BoS :/ a long minute later i got killed myself and the la5 probably would have taken you ...

 

should be said that it wasnt a standing bomber on start or landing at a back homebase !! youre post says im a intentional homebaseteamkiller so i say you do Heroine and infected your kids with aids ?!

 

and if i got banned because of one mistake in chaos of battle, it would confuse me, doesnt even matter anyways because i know how its working and im not that usuall dumb guy

Edited by Wander_Falke

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Right now statistics work correctly only with 'air kills' after "next 25 records"  :unsure: Something wrong.

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I have no idea why server kicks you. I asks developers about it. There is no restriction in the server setup about ping delay at the moment. You may check your ping to server by opening the console in the windows: type cmd to open a console then type ping 146.0.32.24 -t and hit enter. Every second  there is a replay from the server with time delay in ms. If you are disconnected please check if your ping in that moment was higher than usual e.g. 500ms or more.

 

 

My ping is 300ms, occasionally spikes to 315. Should be within acceptable limits?

 

Do I need to register somewhere to join the server? There aren't any instructions in the OP. (It might be a good idea to include this kind of critical information there)

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This is odd.  I am being given credit for 3 air kills for this sortie in the stats however I only shot down 2.  Log issue?

 

I also got a doubled kill. I landed a transport ju88 at shkolny, and just after I landed and turned the engines off, one lagg decided to strafe me, except he didnt pull up, he went straight into me, killing himself in the process. Somehow my pilot survived and I my gunners managed to hit him but I was awarded 2 kills when he went down.

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How many points do I get for shooting down the UFO?

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otherwise, numbers where still a bit onesided and flight distances for the russians where a bit longer, no big deal.. but I found that those who actually flew long range missions to depots in back mostly did not see much combat.. and have much less percentual influence on "winning" or "losing" as the ones just going casually and high frequency to-and-fro around the middle airbases, where the most action was. Maybe balancing targets and makeing the ones in the back worth more or having more impact would also alter that part of gameplay in the sense that "I do a mission and go there" has more value then fiddeling around middle map and motivate some to try and actually defend those things.

 

I kinda of feel the same about the objectives. If there's a 1:45 time limit, why so many different objectives? I'd love to see offensives. Like its Russia's turn to bomb the factory and tanks could be a side mission as Luftwaffe defends and intercepts bombers. Then next mission could be Luftwaffe bombing while VVS intercept and defend the motherland. Kinda like chess taking turns? Hell thats what we could do. Each airfield is a playing pawn, knights are tanks, kings are the factory, each move a mission.....j/k.

 

Flew a level bomb flight today and nothing showed up to oppose us besides the flak. With the little amount of players and unbalanced teams maybe more centralized missions could help?

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The targets are not ment to be taken out in one map rotation in 2 hours.

Its a 24/7 online war - actions from the missions that hapened before count.

So targets are as many as they are.

As for where the action has the most influance - usually its far from the closest airbase where the fighters and suicide bombers duke it out - its the ground attacks that avoid being detected and take out the important targets that contribute the most for capturing teritory / airfields.

Airfileds are most easily taken by tanks - and hte only thing protecting the airfields are the defence lines if avalible and the air force.

This means that if one wants to take an airfield it is easiest to destroy hte defence lines infront of it and let tanks do the rest.

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I kinda of feel the same about the objectives. If there's a 1:45 time limit, why so many different objectives? I'd love to see offensives. Like its Russia's turn to bomb the factory and tanks could be a side mission as Luftwaffe defends and intercepts bombers. Then next mission could be Luftwaffe bombing while VVS intercept and defend the motherland. Kinda like chess taking turns? Hell thats what we could do. Each airfield is a playing pawn, knights are tanks, kings are the factory, each move a mission.....j/k.

 

Flew a level bomb flight today and nothing showed up to oppose us besides the flak. With the little amount of players and unbalanced teams maybe more centralized missions could help?

 

It is like a chess.

You just would like to have a simple scenario and plan for the missions described in brief...

Here you create it, you have info in brief about the mission status and tactical situation on the map.

Just analyse it and make own decisions.

 

Simple example

1st mission. 

Enemy tanks are close to the enemy airfield. Risk of the attack is high, longer flight to target, more enemy fighters. 

There is no sense to attack them in this round. We defend own tanks.

We attack enemy closest airfield so it will be downed for the next round.

2nd mission 

Tanks are also far away from us, but the supply column appeared. We bomb supply depots to cut off logistic lines in next round.

Then we kill supply trucks.

3rd mission, 

Enemy tanks are in the middle between airfields, we easily attack them, because enemy airfield is far away from us.

Then we defend tem.

 

And few words about some of the complains...

 

The real problem is a lack of experience and cooperation on comms.

You guys dont count the risk in the missions... Dont have enough players but plan really hard tasks...

Then usually most of you dies because of the lack of organization and stupid mistakes.

 

TS is empty most of the time because you guys are too proud and stubborn to come there.

Instead of it you prefer to stay on own TS or just dont cooperate focusing on own business.

I was inviting ppl on TIDES TS plenty of times but who cares right???

Dumb Blacky, he should come to mine, I will not go anywhere. Everyone should come to mine TS!!!

IM THE VIP!!!

Writing on chat that you will fly somewhere is not just not effective and not enough to plan the attack but who cares right???

I`M THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER IN THE WORLD AND EVERYONE HAVE TO COVER ME EVEN ON DUMB SINGLE MISSION 50 KM DEEP IN TO ENEMY TERITORY.

or 

I`M THE BEST FIGHTER IN THIS GAME SO I`LL FLY ALONE TO KILL ALL THOSE SCUMS.

or

I`M SOMEWHERE AND I DID STUPID MISTAKES SO ENEMY ATTACK ME I DONT TALK WITH ANYONE UNTIL I`LL HAVE  "6". THEN I`M WRITING "HELP,HELP,HELP" and later complains about lack of cover...

 

Then you guys dies, loose your precious planes and what some of you do, is coming here on forum, crying, complaining and blaming the server, rules, planeset.

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

I belive most of you can think logically.

Guys!

Treat this season as a practice.

Annalyse map, analyse risk, share the tasks, atttack. Then analyse own mistakes.

But first of all.

Come to TS.

 

About the present situation on map.

 

1. AAA is too weak on the targets. Even single or two-ship formation can cause serious damage to the column.

2. The front line is stucked. Only side with numerous advantage can push it which is sensless. 

3. There is too much ground objects on the map. Gameplay is static. War logic has to be changed.

4. We need to limit the blue slots in the server due to inbalance.

5. We cant set different planeset for BoM and BoS users... Basic planes will be choosen from BoS.

6. Why only blue bombers are on the top 5 ??? Why only 1 red team is in top 5 bomber teams ??? He-111 2xSC1000 has to be limited. Pe-2 is just better, more agile and flexible in use compare to Heinkel, but SC1000 earthquaking bomb is just giving too big boost which was proven in the stats.

7. Unliimted IL-2 is giving red side domination in low level combats. Durable, heavy armed, agile in jinks. Even Bf-110 cant compete with them. IL-2 will stay in planeset for sure but not with old ADW style.

Edited by =LG=Blakhart
  • Upvote 3

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1. AAA is too weak on the targets. Even single or two-ship formation can cause serious damage to the column.

2. The front line is stucked. Only side with numerous advantage can push it which is sensless. 

3. There is too much ground objects on the map. Gameplay is static. War logic has to be changed.

4. We need to limit the blue slots in the server due to inbalance.

5. We cant set different planeset for BoM and BoS users... Basic planes will be choosen from BoS.

6. Why only blue bombers are on the top 5 ??? Why only 1 red team is in top 5 bomber teams ??? He-111 2xSC1000 has to be limited. Pe-2 is just better, more agile and flexible in use compare to Heinkel, but SC1000 earthquaking bomb is just giving too big boost which was proven in the stats.

7. Unliimted IL-2 is giving red side domination in low level combats. Durable, heavy armed, agile in jinks. Even Bf-110 cant compete with them. IL-2 will stay in planeset for sure but not with old ADW style.

 

Server is great, dont mind random calls of despair from players who struggle. Flying should be hard.

 

Anyways to the points you stated.

 

Limiting a blue slots is really bad idea, for example there is 8 somewhat active pilots in our squadron, some of them refuse to fly red machines from principle, some of them dont want to, if from some reason we couldnt take blue side, or just some of us would take it, we would simply change server just to fly together (it would be a shame since your server is best there is). I believe there is plenty of pilots out there aswell, that in a second they couldnt log with their friend and fly what they want just go elsewhere, anyways server feel pretty balanced in evening hours where most players joins (25vs24 or something like that)

 

next point limiting 2000 on heinkels, i believe thats a bad idea aswell, the plane could carry it, they did fly with those loadouts, why forbidd it ? He 111 is very big and slow plane, which need to bomb from level and higher alts, this makes him really vulnerable to fighters, its easily spotted and easily interecepted, there should be reward in some way for succesfuly flying it, and there its massive destruction he does with his 2x1000kg bombs, if you forbid it, there wont be a reason to fly it at all, which would be a shame, if you see this plane as big advantage put the red targets bit further from a front, so heinkels would need to fly further more and therefore reds would have more time to intercept.

 

Next point which is not stated, but its worth mentioning, try to bring player controlled tanks into mix, i think your server is perfectly suited for them :)

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I/JG1 51_Deschain said "Limiting a blue slots is really bad idea". I agree totally even i fly VVS side. If you do that some blue pilots 'll not abble to join when they have time to fly. So they left your server. 

I would prefer a xp boost given to the outnumbered side.

Great server indeed

Best regards

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Server is great, dont mind random calls of despair from players who struggle. Flying should be hard.

 

Anyways to the points you stated.

 

Limiting a blue slots is really bad idea, for example there is 8 somewhat active pilots in our squadron, some of them refuse to fly red machines from principle, some of them dont want to, if from some reason we couldnt take blue side, or just some of us would take it, we would simply change server just to fly together (it would be a shame since your server is best there is). I believe there is plenty of pilots out there aswell, that in a second they couldnt log with their friend and fly what they want just go elsewhere, anyways server feel pretty balanced in evening hours where most players joins (25vs24 or something like that)

 

next point limiting 2000 on heinkels, i believe thats a bad idea aswell, the plane could carry it, they did fly with those loadouts, why forbidd it ? He 111 is very big and slow plane, which need to bomb from level and higher alts, this makes him really vulnerable to fighters, its easily spotted and easily interecepted, there should be reward in some way for succesfuly flying it, and there its massive destruction he does with his 2x1000kg bombs, if you forbid it, there wont be a reason to fly it at all, which would be a shame, if you see this plane as big advantage put the red targets bit further from a front, so heinkels would need to fly further more and therefore reds would have more time to intercept.

 

Next point which is not stated, but its worth mentioning, try to bring player controlled tanks into mix, i think your server is perfectly suited for them :)

 

Your points are logical and true but...

Now we should listen some voice from the red side and obviously we all know the result.

1-1 so what we can do ?

 

Numbers, check the numbers. 

 

I respect your opinion but also I belive in math and statistic.

If I see that average pilot can have 10-20 targets in Pe-2 and average He-111 driver can bring 20-40 or even 50+it means that something is not well balanced.

I just care about the impact on the overall campaign situation. 

Remember old sentence, fighter make movies, bombers make history. Thats why its so important.

Just check the stats m8.

 

About the tanks.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/22861-tactical-air-war-tanks-landing-troops/

 

:) Cheers!

 

p.s.

If the server have 64 slots, we would limit blue slots to 32-32. 

You think this is bad idea?

So flying 10 vs 40 is a good one ? :D

Edited by =LG=Blakhart

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