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Tactical Air War

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This is very strange...i've been writing arguements, not from admin numbers but by my own experience; you only have to check posts but if you don´t want to analize them or choose not to see them it's up to you. There isn't a blinder person that the one not willing to see".

 
You say VVS win has been mainly thanks to AAA shooting down an average of 87 more planes by map; so? What does it confirm? I think not much. I think victory has to do with many factors and taking only 1 particular aspect it's sily and shallow. It's like me;saying the top 5 VVS fighter squadrons shot down 800 planes more than top 5 LW fighter squads. That is 100+ per map; so that it's the reason we won.
 
Also like that ZG26 guy who rushes to froum saying how letal and terrible 61K was...and actually when you check his stat he was shot down by 61K only once, other shot downs by red fighters or own damaged; again, it can´t be taken seriously.
 
Red and Blue side had advantages and disadvantages, both. VVS had Mighty Pe2; LW had bombers with  monster bombs; VVS had amazing Vya23mm, LW had tough jabos with huge bombs; VVS had better AAA, LW had better chances in both Kuban maps due to layouts, etc, etc. The side which used their material better, the one that could overcome difficulties better and flew more organized -among other aspects- finally won. If you don´t want to realize this, well, there's nothing else i can do.

 

Again, online wars are mainly won by:

1. Well organized pilots who care about map outcome.

2. Gaining air domination (superiority) on most important targets every mission.
3. Huge -and consistent- quorum difference.
 
I assure you 99% of veterans will agree with these. People who doesn´t realize this, it's beacuse the don´t want to, or don´t have much experience in online projects.

 

 

I really wonder what i should trust more, statistical numbers or your subjective experience? mmh...

 

I never said that there is only 1 factor necessary for a win but that AAA was a decisive one. The reason why i focus on AAA and not on player statistics is because players should be the main force of influence on the outcome of a campaign and not unbalanced AAA distribution (which was already addressed by admins and is going to change)*. Therefor i really don't understand your point.

 

I am also not arguing for balance but for historical accuracy. For that i also hope that the Vya-23 and the upcoming Mk 108 in the G6 will be disabled in the campaign. 

 

I completely agree with you that the team with better coordination etc etc. should win. And i also think that you would agree that historical inaccurate AAA distribution should not be the reason one or the other side loses. 

 

*Disclaimer: I am not saying AAA or the 61-K is overpowered but merely that LW needs an historical accurate counterpart. 

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Also like that ZG26 guy who rushes to froum saying how letal and terrible 61K was...and actually when you check his stat he was shot down by 61K only once, other shot downs by red fighters or own damaged; again, it can´t be taken seriously.

 

The devil is in the detail....

 

EscX5z4.jpg

 

,,,,,,and this can be taken seriously.

 

 

I'll issue you a challenge in the next TAW. Stay away from your Yak-1B and the trusty Pe-2 and fly in the campaign as a LW ground attacker. I'll fly VVS and we can compare notes after its over?

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Realistic and Balanced...Yeah
 

 

What do you reckon Coldman, fancy flying in the campaign as a LW ground attacker next time? 

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I think we should try a campaign with the German 37mm as well. Then we can have it compared against the 61-K, because for what I have seen the AAA in the German side were either rifle cal mg, 20mm FlaK 38 and the heavy 88, which had this medium range area as a "blindspot" (too far for the 20mm, but too close for the 88mm).

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*Disclaimer: I am not saying AAA or the 61-K is overpowered but merely that LW needs an historical accurate counterpart. 

 

You won't, I will the 61-K is Overpowered, even on Low AI. 

And it has decided Map outcomes simply by making the LW Side unable to win by Attrition. So once again, EVERY Map the Germans want to win has to be fought for hard, while the Russians has the option to just wait out Maps and win by Default. 

 

Historically speaking only a small Number was available withe the Start of the War 1941/42, it wasn't produced at all while the Factory was moving, and only came back into the Picture in Mid-1942 and only really picked up by 1943. 

 

It was the most Produced Russian Gun, yes, but not in the Time TAW takes place in. For the First Years the 52-K, Model 1938 and 7.62 and 12.7 Machine Guns were the AA Mainstay of Russia. 

 

And flying past Flak a couple of times in a very fast Fighter does of course make you an Expert immediately. Ooooh the bravery. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann
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What do you reckon Coldman, fancy flying in the campaign as a LW ground attacker next time? 

 

Yes LG will fly next campaign on blue side and i will fly as attacker because i like it :)

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Yes LG will fly next campaign on blue side and i will fly as attacker because i like it

Great to hear, we will fly VVS and we can compare notes after its over. 

 

Edit: Hopefully Artur and Chimago will join you in the ground attack role too?

Edited by 6./ZG26_Custard

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Great to hear, we will fly VVS and we can compare notes after its over. 

 

Edit: Hopefully Artur and Chimago will join you in the ground attack role too?

Of course, I will join as always :)

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Great to hear, we will fly VVS and we can compare notes after its over. 

 

Edit: Hopefully Artur and Chimago will join you in the ground attack role too?

Awesome Idea. You won't know what hit you when suddenly all 61-Ks are gone after like 3 Ju-87 Missions. 

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I think we should try a campaign with the German 37mm as well. Then we can have it compared against the 61-K, because for what I have seen the AAA in the German side were either rifle cal mg, 20mm FlaK 38 and the heavy 88, which had this medium range area as a "blindspot" (too far for the 20mm, but too close for the 88mm).

I'm gonna play the devil advocate, but I've read that the 3.7cm flak was not present in significant numbers on the eastern front. They were issued to Luftwaffe flak troops that were employed in western Europe whereas on the eastern front the Wehrmacht had its own flak troops (with about 300 3.7cm guns total at the beginning of barbarossa).

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Guys,

 

just chill out grab a beer and enjoy the incoming holiday. It was a great campaign and I'm sure that while TAW aims to be realistic, the guys take your feedback into account as well. No need to fight over it now, I'm pretty sure the next one will even be better. In the end we all want the same - to have good (and realistic) fun.

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I'm gonna play the devil advocate, but I've read that the 3.7cm flak was not present in significant numbers on the eastern front. They were issued to Luftwaffe flak troops that were employed in western Europe whereas on the eastern front the Wehrmacht had its own flak troops (with about 300 3.7cm guns total at the beginning of barbarossa).

 

I guess we need sources on that but if we go down that path we need to disable the Vya 23 and upcoming Mk 108 and maybe other things that i have not in mind atm.

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If I could just step away from the 61-K for a moment- I myself and my squad had a fantastic time in the last campaign. Congratulations all around for a game well played. There are however some changes that I wouldn't mind seeing. Truthfully, I don't expect any of what I write here to make it into TAW (certainly not in time for the next campaign). And with no knowledge of what goes on under the hood, I don't even know how many of my suggested changes are even possible. At the very least I hope what I have to say will provide a good read.

 

If I can give a theme to this, I would say that the root of my problems with TAW are rooted in the variety of missions. That is to say, there isn't enough of it. These long periods of down time between campaigns may in fact be a blessing, because I'm sorry to say that if TAW could run continuously I would grow tired of the repetition and stop playing. Instead, I return to the other active servers, and after a while, I'm left eagerly awaiting the next campaign. That being said, once I'm in the next campaign, that same tiredness returns a little faster than I would like. If I had to pin it down, I'd say it kicks in around map 4 or 5 because that's when we start to see a very traditional roster of aircraft on both sides. And with regards to aircraft I feel that the progression of the campaign starts to fall off. The point I'm trying to make here is that the first half of TAW manages to stay quite fresh, and that the best way to improve the server would be to extend that freshness as far through the campaign as possible.

 

Now I think the easiest way to achieve this is to keep just about everything the same and occasionally put a real twist on it. Now I'm not really putting it forward as a suggestion, but it would serve as a good example, and that's night maps. It would be everything you would do normally but with the added difficulty of limited visibility IE the twist. If you think about it, it has exactly the same affect as the rain missions.

 

Now moving away from a "simple twist," I don't think there is much to be done in the way of airplanes and air combat until more are planes are released. With ground attack however, I think there are some changes and/or additions to be made. First and foremost are the artillery positions that spawn when tanks are making a push. Those from what I can tell are just fortified positions with the tanks removed and the AT guns swapped for artillery. And even if they're not, that's exactly what It feels like. Here I would suggest removing all fortification/bunker objects and replacing them with mobile rocket artillery and/or SPGs. You would still just be flying out to a target area and destroying everything there (like most ground strike missions really), but by not looking like a fortifications it gives the feeling like we're flying a different mission. Oddly enough, that can go a long way. Going past that, The maps need to be sprinkled with wider variety of objectives with an equally wide variety of impacts on the current map. I'm talking about fuel depots, tanks depots, train depots, or whatever people can think of. The important thing is that there is a wide variety of objectives with a wide variety of targets to kill. But most Importantly, encourage a wide variety of weapons. Everything from the machine gun pods on the Ju 87 to the PTABs on the IL-2 1943 need to be useful- and I know that can be really hard when all you really need to solve most of your problems in this game is a really big bomb. As it stands in the last campaign, if I needed to wipe and objective off the map, I would just take and IL-2 with 23mm AP + 6x 100kg bombs, and that could handle just about any and everything (a tribute to the IL-2s versatility I'm sure). But because of that, the experience got very repetitive very quickly.

 

Next is paths to victory and victory conditions. Now there are four victory conditions for a map that I am aware of. A team can win on a map through destroying a huge number of aircraft, killing a large number of pilots, destroying a huge number of tanks, or kicking the other team off the map entirely. Achieving any of these conditions before the enemy team will effectively win your team the map. These four things are in theory a wide enough variety of win conditions for interesting gameplay. In practice however, destroying the pilot and aircraft reserves of the enemy team are secondary win conditions that only become important if your team is closer to completing those conditions than the tank condition or as a last ditch effort to win before the enemy has destroyed all of your tanks. In addition, the effectiveness of targeting enemy pilot and aircraft reserves wavers greatly depending on how many players on on the enemy team at any given time. If your team outnumbers the enemy 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 you're sure to make steady progress, but it will be a crawl. So from the four conditions we started with, that leaves the tanks and territory. Although the tanks are not strictly a victory condition, they are the most reliable way of taking territory, and atm Russia's only way of taking territory. Once the enemy runs out of their tanks they can still slow you down, but they almost certainly will not be able to reverse the outcome of the map. This makes (on a grand scale) tanks the most important objectives to attack and defend, and from the start of a map, the single reliable path to victory. And while I don't think that will ever change, it should certainly be expanded and/or more fully supplemented by secondary objectives. I suggest the addition of parked aircraft at airfields and maybe a small numbers of ai aircraft (only at times of day with a low player count) that will count toward the aircraft victory condition to help elevate it to the same importance of the tanks. Now from here on out, everything I have to say probably leans a little (or a lot) toward wish full thinking; you've been warned. I think tanks need to be dramatically changed to allow for a second path to victory. Specifically, I would like to see a vastly smaller number of reserve tanks; maybe 100-150 max. just like the current implementation, when a team runs out of tanks, they can no longer push. Every time a tank column makes an attack on a fortified defense it is guarantied to lose a percentage of its force (regardless of the actions of the enemy air force); the percentage being dictated by how damaged the defenses are. However these tanks are being constantly and rapidly replenished by factories and/or train stations. The more damaged a teams factories/train stations become, the slower they replenish tanks. The goal here would be to damage the enemy tank production to the point that it can't keep up with the losses. This would have the advantage of allowing a team to choose to attack the tanks directly as they push (CAS), obliterate tank production (strategic bombing), or some combination of the two, and in that way add in more variety to a map. I also would like to see a new victory condition, "aviation fuel." both teams start with a huge amount of fuel to supply their entire air fleet. A new ground objective would be added; a "fuel depot." as fuel depots are destroyed, the max fuel load for everyone on the team is lowered and lowered until the air force is grounded for lack of fuel (victory for the enemy team). I know the starting amount of fuel can be locked, but I don't know if you can place a limit on it. But hopefully this would add a twist to the second half of a map where a pilot will really have to consider what airfield to take off from, how direct/indirect his flight to the target will be, what weapons he/she will take and how much drag they will add; stuff of that nature. I think that system, or a system like that, could add a real tension to the mid-end of a map. Again these last two items lean toward wish full thinking, and I don't even know if it would work with the tech under the hood.

 

TL;DR

TAW needs more variety so that it doesn't feel repetitive over an extended period of time.

 

Thanks for reading the rant. I can't wait for the next campaign. Cheers!

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Last TAW campaign was great fun, next campaign I'll be flying Luftwaffe so it will be interesting to see what the flak is like on the other side.

 

If the VVS 61K flak is set to 'expert' then maybe switch it to 'veteran' (or similar) for a campaign and see what happens with the stats?

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If the VVS 61K flak is set to 'expert' then maybe switch it to 'veteran' (or similar) for a campaign and see what happens with the stats?

 

Seeing as a few of the LG guys (and hopefully Chimango?) have committed to fly LW ground attack in the next campaign I hope that they don't change anything (this time round) until they get a feel of what is is like with current settings.

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Seeing as a few of the LG guys (and hopefully Chimango?) have committed to fly LW ground attack in the next campaign I hope that they don't change anything (this time round) until they get a feel of what is is like with current settings.

We know what it is with current settings as they haven't been changed since 5 campaigns or more :)

And about your hope sorry but TAW dev team already decided few days ago to make changes to AAA, especially to 61k.

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Ahhhh so clearly something is not quite right with the K-61 then. ;) Hopefully the LG guys will now have a much easier time flying LW ground attack with changes made to the AAA.

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How dare you utter such toxic Wrongthink Custard? Internalize the Doublethink, there are no Contradictions, Truth is a Spectrum.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

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Ahhhh so clearly something is not quite right with the K-61 then. ;)Hopefully the LG guys will now have a much easier time flying LW ground attack with changes made to the AAA.

We didn't said it. We'll make changes and compare stats after campaign end.

 

I doubt it.

Edited by =LG=Leutnant_Artur

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Just why You did a single mission and escaped doesn't mean it is not OP. That's why we have statistics.

 

My suggestion is to make "captured" K61 available for the German side in the same quantity available to Russians. Enemy material was captured

in huge numbers so no historic issues.

 

Suggestion number two is to use all winter maps available for a longer campaign.

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Seeing as a few of the LG guys (and hopefully Chimango?) have committed to fly LW ground attack in the next campaign I hope that they don't change anything (this time round) until they get a feel of what is is like with current settings.

 

 

Ahhhh so clearly something is not quite right with the K-61 then. ;) Hopefully the LG guys will now have a much easier time flying LW ground attack with changes made to the AAA.

We were flying for LW in previous campaign, with same AA settings.

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We were flying for LW in previous campaign, with same AA settings.

Well with the changes to the AAA particularly the K-61 that should make it somewhat easier overall for LW ground attack. You'll have to let us know what difference you notice when you fly on blue ,next time

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We were flying for LW in previous campaign, with same AA settings.

 

Was it in the same way as a last campaing? 

 

At least your last team stat shows that you suffered not at all from AAA because LG team was not intended to attack the ground targets at all.

 

https://ibb.co/f9Hb76

Edited by Kra

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Was it in the same way as a last campaing? 

 

At least your last team stat shows that you suffered not at all from AAA because LG team was not intended to attack the ground targets at all.

 

https://ibb.co/f9Hb76

heh its 997 ground kills and we are at 17 place of 126 overall squads :)

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Was it in the same way as a last campaing?

 

At least your last team stat shows that you suffered not at all from AAA because LG team was not intended to attack the ground targets at all.

 

https://ibb.co/f9Hb76

well hopefully we will see some mass stuka formations from the LG guys next time of maybe some low strikes in 110's?

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heh its 997 ground kills and we are at 17 place of 126 overall squads :)

 

 

I have about 100 air kills and about 500 ground kills just for one person and I am a fighter player. So, only one conclusion is that your team was not intended to attack the ground targets.

 

I mean it is not good or bad just it is like it is. But your explanation about AAA cannot be correct for 100% in this case.

Edited by Kra
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How was this campaign won / lost -> on planes lost.

How was this achieved mainly - > by defensive / offensive flights from the VVS fighers.

Which type of planes won the campaign -> FIGHTERS.

What was the most effective way of wining the campaign for VVS in the end -> kill enemy planes faster than ours get killed.

What should I fly to ensure victory????

What am I good in???

For me the answer was fighters and goal was to destroy planes / pilots - which I did.

 

That was the case this time around. 

I dont fully agree with it - for me it should be much more ground war oriented.

 

And it also could be if flights would organise correctly -> like LW did in both Kuban maps and on map 3. 

Shut down depot, shut down fields, capture by paratroopers, do it one field per map - most team focus on that, the rest defend the home locations.

Going after tanks wasnt much of a gain bringer this time around really - defense positions usually were very tough and almost never completely wiped out around the airfield so that the tanks could capture it - so tanks taking airfields was highly unlikely and therefore not much of a target.

I would change that - less defense position around airfields to make tank destruction / defense more of a factor - this would make it possible to achieve the goal with a smaller team (which is currently the case).

 

Next campaign I will be flying with the LG guys again - I hope that there will be enough VVS signed up. And most of all I hope to have more time to fly. 

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Our attitude after suggestions is (as I said earlier) that we will make changes according to what we saw in posts. :)

remeber also to disable all russian planes, so they stay on ground and will not make the LW life miserable and finally we might see no more LW whining posts... ;)

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How was this campaign won / lost -> on planes lost.

How was this achieved mainly - > by defensive / offensive flights from the VVS fighers.

Which type of planes won the campaign -> FIGHTERS.

What was the most effective way of wining the campaign for VVS in the end -> kill enemy planes faster than ours get killed.

What should I fly to ensure victory????

What am I good in???

For me the answer was fighters and goal was to destroy planes / pilots - which I did.

 

The problem is that we do not have enough targets for the bombers. I saw only depot (usually TOO far and only 1 or 2) and AF. 

 

Usual story for the red or blue fighters:

 

just stay high over own AF, wait the bombers, attack them and go to land after that. 

 

I am not sure that it is OK. I see no way to survive there for attacking side because USUALLY there are enough starting planes. I can arrive at 5..10k and attack the red/blue planes but they will just go lower for 1k than I am and i can't go lower and lower and lower and do more pressure because as I said before there are a lot of starting planes and soon or later someone will help the enemy that is under attack.

 

I suppose some ground target should be added and not in the zone 10 km from the enemy AF.

Edited by Kra
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remeber also to disable all russian planes, so they stay on ground and will not make the LW life miserable and finally we might see no more LW whining posts...

 

I'm flying red next time but I'll offer you a little challenge. Fly in the next one as a LW ground attack aircraft.Not in an La-5 or a Pe-2, fly a Stuka or a 110-E and then we can have a chat about the campaign after its over.  

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well hopefully we will see some mass stuka formations from the LG guys next time of maybe some low strikes in 110's?

No for that, for sure, because attacking ground targets from low altitude is asking for trouble. And it's excatly the reason why we can't fully agree that 61K is OP. We don't know how many of that 61K kills are from bad decision, which is low strikes with 110, attacking without recon (is there AAA or not?) etc.

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No for that, for sure, because attacking ground targets from low altitude is asking for trouble.
Ah but you see the problem is when you have a completely overcast sky with very low cloud and it's raining you have no choice but to fly lower. So unless you stay back at base what are you supposed to do?   

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IIRC lowest cloud level is set to 2000m. It's enough for dive bombing. When I'm ground pounding I'm droping bombs from high dive angle, and I never getting lower then 1000m. Maybe it's not too accurate but until there is AAA, better that then dead.

 

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Kill the AAA by a group of fighters first, than attack with the slow cumbersome planes.

Teamwork is key. 

And fast dive towards target is easy for AAA - you need to change trajectory of plane to make the AAA adjust the aim - so fly past it on the edge of its range so it tracks you and at the same time your mate comes from the other side and takes it out. So what if you fly at 700km/h - as long as your trajectory is straight towards the AAA you are going to get hit - unless the AAA is tracking another plane and it is pointed away from you. 

Edited by PeterZvan

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I'm flying red next time but I'll offer you a little challenge. Fly in the next one as a LW ground attack aircraft.Not in an La-5 or a Pe-2, fly a Stuka or a 110-E and then we can have a chat about the campaign after its over.  

Ah, but I planned to do exactly that - fly blue side attack and bomber planes.

So challenge accepted :)

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Kill the AAA by a group of fighters first, than attack with the slow cumbersome planes.

Teamwork is key. 

And fast dive towards target is easy for AAA - you need to change trajectory of plane to make the AAA adjust the aim - so fly past it on the edge of its range so it tracks you and at the same time your mate comes from the other side and takes it out. So what if you fly at 700km/h - as long as your trajectory is straight towards the AAA you are going to get hit - unless the AAA is tracking another plane and it is pointed away from you. 

 

there are good advises but they do not work for the blue side (I mean for the cases if you are alone in the target area).

As I said before i did about 40 sorties in the row for the red side with Pe2 87 series (WOL) and was not killed at all by the working AAA (just dived all the time from 3k). For the blue side it does not work at all (WOL). I have some experience with that, about 15% of the time played with 110 or 88.

 

The diving speed is just not enough to survive with 110 or 88 with good chances.

Edited by Kra
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IRC lowest cloud level is set to 2000m. It's enough for dive bombing. When I'm ground pounding I'm droping bombs from high dive angle, and I never getting lower then 1000m. Maybe it's not too accurate but until there is AAA, better that then dead.
Our squad did several Stuka missions, we came in at around 3500m, did a wing over diving attack and got shredded by AAA. I think out of a flight of 6 or 7, 2 survived and one of those was damaged. Our squad is not a rookie outfit.

 

 

 

Ah, but I planned to do exactly that - fly blue side attack and bomber planes.

 

Excellent, I'll look out for you in your Stuka  ;)       

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IIRC lowest cloud level is set to 2000m. It's enough for dive bombing. When I'm ground pounding I'm droping bombs from high dive angle, and I never getting lower then 1000m. Maybe it's not too accurate but until there is AAA, better that then dead.

 

 

It's gonna be absolutely hillarious. Get used to the Taste of Hat, cause you are gonna eat one. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann
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