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Tactical Air War

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It's almost as if it was made to discourage Ground Attack and make Life easy for the Fighters.

That's what you get for flying 'shit planes' (as some people tend to call them on this server). Welcome to Hartman's heaven.

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka

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Very well. You should be killed every time when you will have such stupid idea to attack the target alone...

 

You would be surprise how many times (about 10 times, I flew bomber mostly) I saw lonely VVS fighter attacking German position in the most stupid manner (shallow slow speed dive) and surviving it with no damage. I was always curious how the hell he could survive such suicidal attack. If there are no medium caliber AA (either 37 mm or 40 mm Flak 28) at German side, then I see the reason.

 

VVS planes are way more durable (specifically the Il-2) than most of their LW counterparts. Omitting the most effective AA weapon for Germans makes the situation even more unbalanced. If this isn't pushing one side to the victory by design, then I have no idea what better proof you want to.

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The designers have already stated the AA is subject to change. I am sure there will be deliberate measures on this matter. The problem is obvious.

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What are we complaining about?

Of the TAW or how is the simulator modeled?

On how the aircraft are modeled in this simulator we do not have to talk about it here.

I have serious doubts about some performances but I do not complain to the creators of TAW.

Regarding the anti-aircraft, in my opinion if you attack the AAA once in one way and get knocked down the next time it is very likely that happens the same

You insist a third time or do you have to change the engagement mode?

In my previous post I refer to this.

Are the engagements in strafe on AAAs realistic?

Are the engagements at 6 o'clock to the bomber at the same speed realistic?

If a AAA has a radius of 1500 meters try to destroy it from 1501 mt or enter its range of action?

It would be enough to read a few books about WWII pilots and understand that no one (except the Japanese) went flying to be killed. :)

I believe we must lose sight of winning or losing.

We must choose which of the two directions we must take.

Playability or simulation?

Reconciling the two is impossible because there will always be someone who will complain about this or that problem.

Sorry for my bad english and I hope I have not hurt anyone's feelings.

Thank you

Dax

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What are we complaining about?

 

The "over" effectiveness of the AAA AI.

 

 

 

 

So do we still have a problem with AAA ?   I said do we have a problem ?  

 

 

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The designers have already stated the AA is subject to change. I am sure there will be deliberate measures on this matter. The problem is obvious.

Oh, then I'm sorry for the comment. I've read several pages discussing this issue up and down and I was really curious of that specific answer made by one of LG guys. So sorry again.

Edited by I./JG1_Pragr

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Hi all . 

I read the forum daily , i played almost 200 hours this campaign as VVS Bomber .

( sorry for my bad English ) 

 

Concerning the famous 61 AAA , maybe the quantity of kills could be explained as follow .

1/ VVS was out numbered by LW  mostly 2vs 1 to 3.5 vs 1  , that means more players and for sure more death for germans specially on week ends ... ( i do not complains ) 

2/ the amount of beginners in the LW going straight to AAA with no experience and no team work , not "sharing AAA" ( team "1GAFL "played this campaign organized with bomber boxes x8 pe 2 minimum  and fighters cover from the 1 st map to last one with major difficulties to connect  ) 

3/the organisation of LW going lonewolves  ( only the  3 last maps  seemed to be played as team  in the LW ) 

 

 

PS : in the Kathon video , we see no problems concerning AAA .

 

From VVS , the german AAA was also deadly ...

This is only my point of view, no offence for players nor organizators , i will play as german for the next campaign .

Edited by -IRRE-Quintus11
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I disagree, we as an expirienced squad were mostly downed by AAA (even caught us in 700 km/h dives and low levels behind trees and objects). Also there's the weather which is compromised by often bad conditions for bombing (overcast 1000 MSL + Fog) and ridiculous wind settings (3 m/s at 500m, 10 m/s at 1000m ???). If those conditions apply you simply can't bomb in a tactical manner but have to go in low and fast which of course favours the high skilled AAA but in an very unrealistic way.

 

Just to be clear, I know there're suicidals especially on the german side but they don't make up the whole reason for vvs aaa overperformence.

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It's almost as if it was made to discourage Ground Attack and make Life easy for the Fighters.

 

Big reason why I sat out last campaign. 

  • Upvote 2

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Hi all . 

I read the forum daily , i played almost 200 hours this campaign as VVS Bomber .

( sorry for my bad English ) 

 

Concerning the famous 61 AAA , maybe the quantity of kills could be explained as follow .

1/ VVS was out numbered by LW  mostly 2vs 1 to 3.5 vs 1  , that means more players and for sure more death for germans specially on week ends ... ( i do not complains ) 

2/ the amount of beginners in the LW going straight to AAA with no experience and no team work , not "sharing AAA" ( team "1GAFL "played this campaign organized with bomber boxes x8 pe 2 minimum  and fighters cover from the 1 st map to last one with major difficulties to connect  ) 

3/the organisation of LW going lonewolves  ( only the  3 last maps  seemed to be played as team  in the LW ) 

 

 

PS : in the Kathon video , we see no problems concerning AAA .

 

From VVS , the german AAA was also deadly ...

This is only my point of view, no offence for players nor organizators , i will play as german for the next campaign .

This makes sense. We have made few tests and the mighty 61 was not so scary. But as I said we'll make some small changes.

 

Next campaign we're also going for LW.

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Hi all . 

I read the forum daily , i played almost 200 hours this campaign as VVS Bomber .

( sorry for my bad English ) 

 

Concerning the famous 61 AAA , maybe the quantity of kills could be explained as follow .

1/ VVS was out numbered by LW  mostly 2vs 1 to 3.5 vs 1  , that means more players and for sure more death for germans specially on week ends ... ( i do not complains ) 

2/ the amount of beginners in the LW going straight to AAA with no experience and no team work , not "sharing AAA" ( team "1GAFL "played this campaign organized with bomber boxes x8 pe 2 minimum  and fighters cover from the 1 st map to last one with major difficulties to connect  ) 

3/the organisation of LW going lonewolves  ( only the  3 last maps  seemed to be played as team  in the LW ) 

 

 

PS : in the Kathon video , we see no problems concerning AAA .

 

From VVS , the german AAA was also deadly ...

This is only my point of view, no offence for players nor organizators , i will play as german for the next campaign .

+1

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AAA is really, really not why blue lost. AAA killed 800 planes. Another 8000 were destroyed elsewhere. Its only a 10% fraction. If you buff or nerf a 10% fraction by ~ 20% you get a net result of +-2% for the whole balance. In other words your suggested AAA nerfing doesnt play a role.

Edited by Max_Damage

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I played red last campaign and was never never downed by german AAA. I played blue this campaign and was shot down at least 8 times, 3 of these times were ludicrous hits that should have not been possible.

 

AAA is really, really not why blue lost. AAA killed 800 planes. Another 8000 were destroyed elsewhere. Its only a 10% fraction. If you buff or nerf a 10% fraction by ~ 20% you get a net result of +-2% for the whole balance. In other words your suggested AAA nerfing doesnt play a role.

Well one map was a tie, airplane loss difference was about 10 planes. Some other maps where won by airfield capture, which is much harder with such AAA in the game. So your stats are not really relevant. Especially from how close the campaign was despite such difference on the AAA between the two sides...

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Hi all .

I read the forum daily , i played almost 200 hours this campaign as VVS Bomber .

( sorry for my bad English )

 

Concerning the famous 61 AAA , maybe the quantity of kills could be explained as follow .

1/ VVS was out numbered by LW mostly 2vs 1 to 3.5 vs 1 , that means more players and for sure more death for germans specially on week ends ... ( i do not complains )

2/ the amount of beginners in the LW going straight to AAA with no experience and no team work , not "sharing AAA" ( team "1GAFL "played this campaign organized with bomber boxes x8 pe 2 minimum and fighters cover from the 1 st map to last one with major difficulties to connect )

3/the organisation of LW going lonewolves ( only the 3 last maps seemed to be played as team in the LW )

 

 

PS : in the Kathon video , we see no problems concerning AAA .

 

From VVS , the german AAA was also deadly ...

This is only my point of view, no offence for players nor organizators , i will play as german for the next campaign .

Consistently saying a person must be a ”lonewolf” and poorly skilled flyer just because they have complaints about the 61K (and the lack of an equivalent AA for the reds to face) is a little offensive to me. If you sort this last campaign’s stats by ground kills, I hope you will see that I know how to attack targets. I also know I got killed or damaged at a relatively high rate by the 61K despite my knowledge on how to coordinate with others and do proper runs. Maybe you’re right about the number of LW influencing what the AA stats show, but all I can clearly attest to is my experience.

 

There is no way AAA won this campaign for reds, and all the VVS pilots receive my full congratulations for a job well done. The point that people are trying to make is that it just seems fair that AA calibers would be balanced for both sides, and I appreciate LG taking the time to look into changes. Shouldn’t we wait to see these changes and consider this a dead topic at this point?

 

Win or lose, it was still a lot of fun and I enjoyed getting to know a lot of you! Thanks again for the campaign and I am looking forward to seeing everyone in the virtual skies again soon!

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Here is something else i observed during last campaign . 

1 / some few ju 87 flying pairs or lonely ,maybe discouraged by slow speed but huge payload ..

( i m dreaming about flying +12 ju 87 dive bombing ) 

2/ the fantastic amount of jabos  190 / 109  in my idea more than 60 % of the flights  ( a single 190 = 1/2 pe 2 payload ..) 

3/ i  never see a hs 129  

 

1+2 +3 / Hans-Ulrich Rudel, "Stukas pilot  "  doesn't describe HIS war with jabos only ... but full squadrons of ju 87  ground attack .  ( i know we are in a game and not at  real war , and looking for fun all together  )

 

This to show a  potential working axe for the next  campaigns . 

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AAA is really, really not why blue lost. AAA

 

I haven't seen anyone claiming that the AAA was the reason blue lost. Around 1300 LW aircraft were downed by AAA. The main issue as I see it, is the triple-A AI is far too effective when set above low. 

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3/ i  never see a hs 129  

 

1+2 +3 / Hans-Ulrich Rudel, "Stukas pilot  "  doesn't describe HIS war with jabos only ... but full squadrons of ju 87  ground attack .

 Our squad flew some Hs-129 missions but this slow moving aircraft against the AAA AI probably doesn't stand much of a chance (probably why you didn't see any)

 

The same can be said for the lack of mass flights of Stukas. 

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It's almost as if it was made to discourage Ground Attack and make Life easy for the Fighters.

 

I agree. I stopped flying ground attack and started flying fighters. Ground attack is too demoralizing. Most of the time I get killed by AAA before I can even reach the target.

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Hey listen guys. Don't think that if will change anything with AAA flying will be easier. TAW is difficult and demanding server so we will not lower any expectations.

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I haven't seen anyone claiming that the AAA was the reason blue lost. Around 1300 LW aircraft were downed by AAA. The main issue as I see it, is the triple-A AI is far too effective when set above low. 

 

Its not a far fetched claim when you consider that LW lost 700 planes more to AAA than VVS and that most maps were decided by attrition. If you divide that by 8 maps you have an advantage by a whopping 87 aircrafts. That's more than enough to be the deciding factor considering that it was quite close when it came down to it.

 

Edit: The claim that VVS was outnumbered this campaign only holds up on the earlier maps, if at all. On the last 3 maps VVS usually had the numbers with LW only getting up to those numbers at EU prime time making it even. Even on the last map (Kuban) which was difficult for the VVS to begin with and the campaign already being decided, their player numbers were usually higher than those of the LW.

Edited by Operation_Ivy
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Its not a far fetched claim when you consider that LW lost 700 planes more to AAA than VVS and that most maps were decided by attrition. If you divide that by 8 maps you have an advantage by a whopping 87 aircrafts. That's more than enough to be the deciding factor considering that it was quite close when it came down to it.

I think an even bigger effect than the disparity in A/C destroyed is the ability of those ground objectives to survive for 1-2 more map cycles. I'd love to get into statistics about each side's armored columns and their life cycle. 

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Hey listen guys. Don't think that if will change anything with AAA flying will be easier. TAW is difficult and demanding server so we will not lower any expectations.

How often do you fly bombers / attackers and how many times you returned home alive after attacking a target sucesfully? Not a lot going by your statistics.

GotqUmm.jpg

 

Maybe a change of perspective could help to see why people complain?

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka
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How often do you fly bombers / attackers and how many times you returned home alive after attacking a target sucesfully? Not a lot going by your statistics.

GotqUmm.jpg

 

Maybe a change of perspective could help to see why people complain?

i saw Your stats and you die only once by 61-K. Rest of your dies ditches bailouts was by players shoots and own dmg. and you killed 51 ground targets. And for me that means You are guy who whine about AAA god mode just after being shot down by it ONCE...And BTW Our fighter that scores 11 ground targets almost allways was over us dealing with ground and draging the AAA from us so he knows how it is and how it works.

Edited by =L/R=Coldman

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I've seen whiners since my first days in online campaigns almost 11 years ago. They are loud, very noisy, but they are just few and don´t represent what majority thinks, so just ignore them. For instance statements like the one from Operation_Ivy mentioning several times that red victory in this TAW is because of AAA efectivenes , it's not only disrespectful but also just ridicuous...to say the least (i have srtonger words for that, but rather not use them now). 

 

I think the whole AAA issue is well over by now. Ignore them from now on.

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i saw Your stats and you die only once by 61-K. Rest of your dies ditches bailouts was by players shoots and own dmg. and you killed 51 ground targets. And for me that means You are guy who whine about AAA god mode just after being shot down by it ONCE...And BTW Our fighter that scores 11 ground targets almost allways was over us dealing with ground and draging the AAA from us so he knows how it is and how it works.

Put your imagination aside and read what people said. Or are you mad at me for pointing the above out and now derail this with poor pillory?

 

I'm not interested in personal glory but to have realistic and balanced missions which TAW does not offer atm. But that probably doesn't stop other people boosting their awesome fighter stats :)

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka
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How often do you fly bombers / attackers and how many times you returned home alive after attacking a target sucesfully? Not a lot going by your statistics.

GotqUmm.jpg

 

Maybe a change of perspective could help to see why people complain?

I have flown attackers and bombers in all previous campaigns destroying more or less targets. 3A haven't been changed for a very long time. If you want to say something about my flying you should gather some more info first :) Beside I'm the one of few building and testing this campaign and we know what 3A can do.

 

Now, 3A works as it works if you want to change something write do game devs maybe they will change it. Balance is important but its is not our priority, this is not WT. Each side use their own units and planes, one are better other worse.

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Put your imagination aside and read what people said. Or are you mad at me for pointing the above out and now derail this with poor pillory?

 

I'm not interested in personal glory but to have realistic and balanced missions which TAW does not offer atm. But that probably doesn't stop other people boosting their awesome fighter stats :)

Realistic and Balanced...Yeah

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I've seen whiners since my first days in online campaigns almost 11 years ago. They are loud, very noisy, but they are just few and don´t represent what majority thinks, so just ignore them. For instance statements like the one from Operation_Ivy mentioning several times that red victory in this TAW is because of AAA efectivenes , it's not only disrespectful but also just ridicuous...to say the least (i have srtonger words for that, but rather not use them now). 

 

I think the whole AAA issue is well over by now. Ignore them from now on.

I think it's nice of you to declare a whole issue 'over by now' - when we don't know any details of what the changes will be. In fact the only thing we have been told is that the changes will 'be very small'. 

 

I really don't understand why you are so defensive, and desperate to end discussion. TAW admins can run their server how they please, ti's mostly their $$ (outside of those who have donated) and valuable free time. And people in this thread can talk about what they feel needs to be changed or kept the same with varying degrees of evidence to back them up. What's it to you if blue ground attackers enjoy themselves more in the server? Do you still not get all your 'easy' air kills? 

 

Now, 3A works as it works if you want to change something write do game devs maybe they will change it. Balance is important but its is not our priority, this is not WT. Each side use their own units and planes, one are better other worse.

Russian flak was historically 2-1 better than German flak. Look it up, it is true! (sarcasm)

 

But you have answered my question. Thank you =LG= for providing a great service and MP experience (I'm not being sarcastic). Some of my best IL-2 memories have been in your server.

 

But now it's clear that my time in it is done, if this is your attitude after trying to suggest changes. Good luck :)

Edited by StG77_Kondor

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I've seen whiners since my first days in online campaigns almost 11 years ago. They are loud, very noisy, but they are just few and don´t represent what majority thinks, so just ignore them. For instance statements like the one from Operation_Ivy mentioning several times that red victory in this TAW is because of AAA efectivenes , it's not only disrespectful but also just ridicuous...to say the least (i have srtonger words for that, but rather not use them now). 

 

I think the whole AAA issue is well over by now. Ignore them from now on.

 

I enjoy your quality comments as well. Basing arguments on numbers provided by the admins is neither ridiculous nor disrespectful. Maybe try to find an argument next time instead of lashing out and acting overly sensitive.

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We saw the stat of number of kills per type of guns, is it possible to get the number of shells shot to achieve those kills?

 

The Soviet stat was (I think) 905 shells per aircraft shot down.

 

That would give us a good idea of the realism of the AAA .

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But now it's clear that my time in it is done, if this is your attitude after trying to suggest changes. Good luck :)

Our attitude after suggestions is (as I said earlier) that we will make changes according to what we saw in posts. :)

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I enjoy your quality comments as well. Basing arguments on numbers provided by the admins is neither ridiculous nor disrespectful. Maybe try to find an argument next time instead of lashing out and acting overly sensitive.

 

This is very strange...i've been writing arguments, not only from admin numbers but also by my own experience; you only have to check posts but if you don´t want to analize them or choose not to see them it's up to you. "There isn't a blinder person that the one not willing to see".

 
You say VVS win has been mainly thanks to AAA shooting down an average of 87 more planes by map; so? What does it confirm? I think not much. I think victory has to do with many factors and taking only 1 particular aspect it's sily and shallow. It's like me saying the top 5 VVS fighter squadrons shot down 800 planes more than top 5 LW fighter squads. That is 100+ per map; so that it's the reason we won. It means nothing.
 
Also like that ZG26 guy who rushes to froum saying how letal and terrible 61K was...and actually when you check his stat he was shot down by 61K only once, other shot downs were by red fighters or own damage; again, it can´t be taken seriously.
 
Red and Blue side had advantages and disadvantages, both of them. The VVS had Mighty Pe2; LW had bombers with monster bombs; VVS had amazing Vya23mm, LW had tough jabos with huge bombs; VVS had better AAA, LW had better chances in both Kuban maps due to layouts, etc, etc. The side which used their material better, the one that could overcome difficulties better and flew more organized -among other aspects- finally won. If you don´t want to realize this, well, there's nothing else i can do.

 

Again, online wars are mainly won by:

1. Well organized pilots who care about map outcome.

2. Gaining air domination (superiority) on most important targets every mission.
3. Huge -and consistent- quorum difference.
 
I assure you 99% of veterans will agree with these. People who doesn´t realize this, it's beacuse the don´t want to, or don´t have much experience in online projects.
Edited by ECV56_Chimango
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Also like that ZG26 guy who rushes to froum saying how letal and terrible 61K was...and actually when you check his stat he was shot down by 61K only once, other shot downs by red fighters or own damaged; again, it can´t be taken seriously.

 

 

I hope you realize there's been more than 1 TAW campaign. I wish we could look up prior campaigns stats just to show you that people aren't whining just because of one bad experience. I look forward to seeing you in a 110 next campaign, diving at 750kph, at an angle against a tank column, only to one-shotted by AA. 

 

 

 

Red and Blue side had advantages and disadvantages, both. VVS had Mighty Pe2; LW had bombers with; monster bombs; VVS had amazing Vya23mm, LW had tough jabos with huge bombs; VVS had better AAA, LW had better chances in both Kuban maps due to layouts, etc, etc. The side which used their material better, the one that could overcome difficulties better and flew more organized -among other aspects- finally won. If you don´t want to realize this, well, there's nothing else i can do.

 

Again, online wars are mainly won by:

1. Well organized pilots who care about map outcome.

2. Gaining air domination (superiority) on most important targets every mission.
3. Huge -and consistent- quorum difference.
 
I assure you 99% of veterans will agree with these. People who doesn´t realize this, it's beacuse the don´t want to, or don´t have much experience in online projects.

 

 

Are you seriously going to sit there with a straight face, and tell me that on it's own, Russian AA is realistically twice more deadly than German AA? And that this is the way it was? I do not at all expect 1-1 equal numbers. But double?! If that's the case, why build more than 4x T-34's when the 61-k could win you the war? 

 

1. This point has been disproved time, and time and time again. The bigger squads often fly different sides in different campaigns. Yet results are the same. But keep denigrating one side's  pilots as buffoons when both sides have their equally fair share of 'wait this server doesn't have GPS?!?'.

2. Agreed. Something that's done much easier when you can rely on your flak to kill enemy bombers at a 2-1 ratio. Allowing you to CAP and intercept other sectors.

3. And still, results are the same. 

 

 

And now everyone can see. Artur, and by extent =LG= have taken this angle (only person recommending this post). Blue ground attackers, pound sand. Amazing. 

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