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Tactical Air War

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After lot of red victories, campaign suffers lot of "mods".

 

Like i read above... first map must win by blues, on last campaign they win first map in 24/48 h, current campaign we are on 5th day and , of course red will lost map, but we try to defend very well.  I think this edition have better quorums and i see more balanced.

 

Better is dont care about victory and only try to do your best.

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2 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

I was mostly thinking about how survivable Il-2 and especially Pe-2 is in this planeset(I wouldnt be surprised if Pe-2 has K/D above 1). But they must be losing horrific numbers of I-16...

 

It's probably the best map for Pe2. Very versatile and fast bomber, crazy dangerous powerful gunner. While we can barely catch them with E7, and need to shoot at quite close distance with MgFF. 

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28 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

It's probably the best map for Pe2. Very versatile and fast bomber, crazy dangerous powerful gunner. While we can barely catch them with E7, and need to shoot at quite close distance with MgFF. 

 

Yeah and they're now flown very boldly and aggressively. And why not, its(in this planeset) basically a fighter that has a very deadly rear gunner and can double as a level bomber.

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Imho we really dont have to discuss balance this campaign. Yes its not ideal in every situation, but this was the situation last campaign two days in:
Verhältnis.PNG

This was after three this campaign:
unknown.png

And yes we still have the advantage for blue, but it was mostly ok. No 40 vs 5 situation.

That beeng said I really would like to see a "cap" for one side. Like 50-60% of max players....
This way the server cant fill up with more blue players and groups have an incentive to switch teams. 

Edited by DerSheriff
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41 minutes ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

It's probably the best map for Pe2. Very versatile and fast bomber, crazy dangerous powerful gunner. While we can barely catch them with E7, and need to shoot at quite close distance with MgFF. 

 

Peshka gets blown out the sky by uber german flak, it is just stacked up against red, no matter which way you try it, and then by the time the reds start gaining any sort of upper hand its too late.

 

i think what someone suggested earlier makes sense, give reds more aircraft.

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Early PE-2 is not that dangerous, just don't attack from low 6 and you're cool.

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You know what gets blown out of the sky by flak? He 111 level bombing a depot at 5500 m. 200 kmph IAS.

 

Just now, Jizzo said:

Early PE-2 is not that dangerous, just don't attack from low 6 and you're cool.

 

Its as fast as 109 and 110. But I agree, if you cant attack it from side or ahead, and do not sit in a 190 or if there isnt someone else already taking gunner fire it, dont attack it. Not worth it. I forget that maxim all the time. :)

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10 minutes ago, SYN_Repent said:

 

Peshka gets blown out the sky by uber german flak, it is just stacked up against red, no matter which way you try it, and then by the time the reds start gaining any sort of upper hand its too late.

 

i think what someone suggested earlier makes sense, give reds more aircraft.

So, it's still just like before:

 

When the red side is winning, it's because of the pilot skills, great teamplay, not minding about stats, etc etc.

 

When the blue is winning, it's because of the server bias.

 

When does this gets fixed??? 😉

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well if the red side is winning now what are you putting it down to? i16s? the reds start to do better once the plane set improves, hence in maps 5+ there are less blues willing to play

Edited by SYN_Repent

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10 minutes ago, SYN_Repent said:

well if the red side is winning now what are you putting it down to? i16s? the reds start to do better once the plane set improves, hence in maps 5+ there are less blues willing to play

It seems to me that no matter what the setup is, winning conditions seems to be like I said. I doubt it can ever be fixed

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night maps and the variety of schedules another incentive more of this campaign 
again thanks to all who work for others to have fun

noche.png

Edited by =gRiJ=ToReRo
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1 hour ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

You know what gets blown out of the sky by flak? He 111 level bombing a depot at 5500 m. 200 kmph IAS.

You must be doing something wrong. You should be able to get about 280 kmph IAS, and enemy fighters should be your only worry.

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1 hour ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

You know what gets blown out of the sky by flak? He 111 level bombing a depot at 5500 m. 200 kmph IAS.

 

 

Its as fast as 109 and 110. But I agree, if you cant attack it from side or ahead, and do not sit in a 190 or if there isnt someone else already taking gunner fire it, dont attack it. Not worth it. I forget that maxim all the time. :)

 

I really dont know what You complain about.

 

This is a very balanced taw campaign at least on first map. I think the most balanced form all TAWS that I remember. BIG TUMB UP for the TAW admins for tuning it so well! And thanks for their hard work. Theres's no need to change anything now in my opinion .

 

 

Yeah. From what You are writing you've never flown yourself on TAW the early pe2 with that 7,62mm top gun. Early pe2 is an really easy prey. (some months ago someone  posted stats from a month of wol and the defence ratio of early pe2 was much smaller than ju88. The highest ratio had the he111h16 next was pe2-87, than ju88 and on 4 place was pe2 early on par with a40 and slightly better than he111 h6 which was last)

And as for he111 getting hit at 5500 - I was never hit over depo in he111 even at 4000m which was my usuall attack alt or over airfields as low as 3500 m in normal sunny weather and i've done it quite a lot. Meybe you was extreamly unlucky.

 

By the way the first map will be won by germans (which have now less planes lost and less pilots killed )

 

Edited by Carl_infar
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4 minutes ago, Chopper said:

You must be doing something wrong. You should be able to get about 280 kmph IAS, and enemy fighters should be your only worry.

 

Around 220-230, slight exaggeration. With internal bomb load only, or even no bomb load? We carry max load because there is no time to fly to the target twice(unlike for Pe-2). Heinkel's low speed really hampers it. Carrying internal load alone might help, but then you only get max 4 hits per target per 2 hour cycle...

 

13 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

 

I really dont know what You complain about.

 

This is a very balanced taw campaign at least on first map. I think the most balanced form all TAWS that I remember. BIG TUMB UP for the TAW admins for tuning it so well! And thanks for their hard work. Theres's no need to change anything now in my opinion .

 

 

Yeah. From what You are writing you've never flown yourself on TAW the early pe2 with that 7,62mm top gun. Early pe2 is an really easy prey. (some months ago someone  posted stats from a month of wol and the defence ratio of early pe2 was much smaller than ju88. The highest ratio had the he111h16 next was pe2-87, than ju88 and on 4 place was pe2 early on par with a40 and slightly better than he111 h6 which was last)

And as for he111 getting hit at 5500 - I was never hit over depo in he111 even at 4000m which was my usuall attack alt or over airfields as low as 3500 m in normal sunny weather and i've done it quite a lot. Meybe you was extreamly unlucky.

 

By the way the first map will be won by germans (which have now less planes lost and less pilots killed )

 

 

 

I dont complain. I replied to claims of Pe-2 is not being dangerous and german flak being uber. I think asymmetric sides can be still balanced and great fun, ie. sides need to not have matching capabilities in all areas. He 111 or Ju 88 will never be as good as Peshka(survivability or versatility wise), but I-16 is trash for a fighter. Pe-2s main strength is the sheer speed, without bombs up high its about as fast as 109 E(combat power) and down low only slightly slower. It takes ages to catch one and then you spend time in gunner fire. Often in enemy airspace. I was yesterday dewinged by either the top or side gunner when booming past in a Macchi.

 

On the level bombing thing, we have now lost around 10 heinkels to flak over the depot and always bombed minimum 5000 meters. Oke managed to achieve 133 gk streak but in the end flak got him too before he got to even release bombs on that run. We feel flak might be slightly heavier than before, and possibly the nearby airfield's flak has range to shoot over the depot. Theres LOTS of flak puffs and the fire feels very accurate. Unfortunately that is not the case for Lukovnikovo depot, Peshkas attack it with impunity at low alt once its own flak was destroyed.

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32 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Around 220-230, slight exaggeration. With internal bomb load only, or even no bomb load?

280kph with two 1000kg bombs. Takeoff with about 30% fuel.

 

220-230 is the speed I use for climb, you shold be done with climbing well before you reach the target area. It will take a minute or two of level flight to reach 280 kph. Remember to reduce the radiators opening some when you are done climbing.

 

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1 hour ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

 

On the level bombing thing, we have now lost around 10 heinkels to flak over the depot and always bombed minimum 5000 meters. Oke managed to achieve 133 gk streak but in the end flak got him too before he got to even release bombs on that run. We feel flak might be slightly heavier than before, and possibly the nearby airfield's flak has range to shoot over the depot. Theres LOTS of flak puffs and the fire feels very accurate. Unfortunately that is not the case for Lukovnikovo depot, Peshkas attack it with impunity at low alt once its own flak was destroyed.

Do You attack in formation? If Yes meybe You should loosen it up over the depo and than tighten when you leave the AAA area

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1 minute ago, Carl_infar said:

Do You attack in formation? If Yes meybe You should loosen it up over the depo and than tighten when you leave the AAA area

 

Not really, cant use tight formation where gunners would have overlapping fields of fire because bombers then cant safely aim individually. Flak tends to focus on the first bomber and the second and third only get a volley or two when they exit the area. I have recorded some bomb runs if anyone wants to do comparison with what they experience. How long does destroyed flak stay dead?

 

29 minutes ago, Chopper said:

280kph with two 1000kg bombs. Takeoff with about 30% fuel.

 

220-230 is the speed I use for climb, you shold be done with climbing well before you reach the target area. It will take a minute or two of level flight to reach 280 kph. Remember to reduce the radiators opening some when you are done climbing.

 

At the moment I dont fly level bombers myself. Our bombers need escorts...

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For me the times I have played TAW the first map was always the most fun, unless it is stacked of course. I think there is something nice about allowing weaker planes to fight against stronger ones. It is fun to run into a swarm of I-16s and suddenly realize you missed one of them, and then down you go. Just as it is fun to climb that thing to where it can barely run and try to sneak in on a 109. 
Then later on as the map progresses you get a bit nervous wondering if the p-40s are in the area. No doubt it is more frustrating playing red, but I guess also more rewarding when succeeding? I at least find the first map quite immersive no matter the side I have tried. 

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3 hours ago, SYN_Repent said:

i think what someone suggested earlier makes sense, give reds more aircraft.

 A large proportion red  player histories are a litany of fighter type crashes, bailouts, deaths and ditches for ZERO positive impact. Its clear that many players seem to have a pretty cavalier attitude to persevering airframes and will only ever lower themselves to climb into a PE2 in order to get a probably unnecessary but short supply CM under their belt to get another fighter after they have run out. 

 

Of course its the same for the Blues but they have the luxury on this map of a larger buffer and slightly better fighter aircraft. And they are still ahead in Air kills thanks in the main to a few high scoring aces and a seemingly endless supply of fly, die repeat saps to shoot down. This situation will no doubt reverse on later maps. 

 

In short I agree that the contrive of less aircraft for defenders doesn't work. And whilst the equalisation of numbers may only draw out the inevitable whilst one side suffers the consequences of above practices more than the other on any given map , it does perhaps provide more scope for those less concerned with a WOL experience to continue to at least try and make a fight of it instead of simply tossing it off or attempting to climb one table or another just because they can.  

 

Regardless - im enjoying my time of TAW - Thanks to all concerned. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

An unbalanced one where there is little incentive to fly as red. Give me at least extra planes as a "Thank you for being your target" lol

Why is "unbalanced"? reds have Il2 ("Tank Killer") , have P40, and have Pe2, I16 no have cannon yeah, but, whit his 7.92 mm bullet can down a 109 easily his radiador is so fragile that in 6 minutes it will no have engine, and "Emil" only have 60 canon bullets vrs Pe2, is insuficient.

We are using 110s like figther because thats, to try kill the enemy bomber, like reds using their Il2 like us to kill 110 etc. We have insuffient bullets and you have insuficent cal. is equal. Now in my pilots virtual life, i saw how many reds going to our position only to die, they attack how if no where tomorrow, and die, not have scort, and always figth low and slow, so, they are loosing because to us is easy shootdown them.

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6 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

We feel flak might be slightly heavier than before, and possibly the nearby airfield's flak has range to shoot over the depot. Theres LOTS of flak puffs and the fire feels very accurate. Unfortunately that is not the case for Lukovnikovo depot, Peshkas attack it with impunity at low alt once its own flak was destroyed.

Salutations Pilots,

 

Just a obvious observation and question. Flak is a real problem for bombers. Ergo... isn't It logical to send ahead flights of smaller craft to take out all or at least some of the flak positions.

 

I realize that this is easier said than done, but is it or has it been done and if so what were the results? :salute:

Edited by Thad
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Reds have Il-2 without 23mm nor 37mm, I-16 without Shvak, less aircraft in the hangar than blues (including Ju-87D-3 with 37mm at the first map), and can't air capture (as if this was something with little impact...).

 

I don't get the argument "reds have p-40 and pe-2". P-40 is an engine-management nightmare and Pe-2 has half of any blue bomber payload, in fact I'd say that the Pe-2 is more similar to the 110. And let's not enter into the aircraft fragility stuff which belong to another thread...

 

Regarding weird stats, there goes a 5-turret 110: 

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=8431&name=1./JG42flesch

 

 

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I gotta say though this is what IL2 multiplayer should be all the time, this is truly epic stuff. Came home early from work today to hopefully get some time on when there is actually people playing. Looks like AXIS are getting their butts handed to them right now, allies have almost the entire map. I still don't get how it works 100% but I have a general idea.

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37 minutes ago, Thad said:

Salutations Pilots,

 

Just a obvious observation and question. Flak is a real problem for bombers. Ergo... isn't It logical to send ahead flights of smaller craft to take out all or at lease some of the flak positions.

 

I realize that this is easier said than done, but is it or has it been done and if so what were the results? :salute:

 

Of course it can be done. But not many want to fly one-way sorties to 130-150 km behind the lines with sub-par equipment(no armor, no rockets) for dealing with the flak. And unfortunately we dont have the numbers to fly 10+ man sorties either.

 

edit: yes we realize trading 5-6 planes or something for chance to destroy whole depot without flak is easily worth it. But I think that promotes suicide missions and we dont do those.

Edited by LeLv76_Erkki

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12 minutes ago, Thad said:

Salutations Pilots,

 

Just a obvious observation and question. Flak is a real problem for bombers. Ergo... isn't It logical to send ahead flights of smaller craft to take out all or at lease some of the flak positions.

 

I realize that this is easier said than done, but is it or has it been done and if so what were the results? :salute:

what common sense heresy is this?!!  

 

Use what is available in a co-ordinated and creative manner? Have you had a bump on the head?  No no no. This wont do at all. Simply not cricket. 

 

Be gone with you, you purveyor of sound tactics - the Reds insist on their right to waste an airframe every 2 missions for nought!

 

TBH I suspect and have often witnessed the more organised squads/affiliations do this but the number of fly die repeat lone wolfers who don't/wont/cant seems to have really hurt the reserve stocks in this map Not just with the flak but by flying lone fighters into hot zones repeatedly whilst somehow expecting a different outcome to their last attempt.

 

I don't think its necessarily just bloody mindedness (in some cases) but some languages in TS are very sparsely populated at times which certainly discourages me from sitting on it just waiting for someone to come questioning me about how the game works cos they cant be bothered to RTFM. That lack of coms makes co-ordination via chat pretty "meh". 

 

2 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

Reds got the shaft on the first map. 

 

The reds did not help themselves like suicidal fruit bats. 

 

9 minutes ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

I gotta say though this is what IL2 multiplayer should be all the time, this is truly epic stuff. Came home early from work today to hopefully get some time on when there is actually people playing. Looks like AXIS are getting their butts handed to them right now, allies have almost the entire map. I still don't get how it works 100% but I have a general idea.

 

The Blues are just circling waiting for us to bleed out our remaining 91 aircraft on yet another one way mission. 

 

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This game DESPERATELY needs in game voice chat. It would make every single server that much better. I can't imagine it's that hard to implement. Multiplayer games have had voice chat for decades now. It would make teamwork so much easier, you could link up and fly formations with randoms on every server. I wonder if that new tower control feature will be something like that? I wonder how that will work.

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31 minutes ago, BOO said:

The reds did not help themselves like suicidal fruit bats. 

To be honest flying the I-16 against 109's is suicide the moment you takeoff.  When stuck at a significant disadvantage people have a tendency to start not caring how they fly, because they'll figure they will be shot-down anyways.  The problem we face is getting people to try and rise above their disadvantages. 

Edited by Garven_Dreis

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Just now, HR_Tofolo said:

Reds have Il-2 without 23mm nor 37mm

have canon, bombs and rocket and heavy protection, its better than slow Stuka whit munition only for 3 tanks if you are good, there is no comparation between both.

 

Just now, HR_Tofolo said:

less aircraft in the hangar than blues

yes we have Stuka, and Ju52, but do you have fligth Stukas and Ju52 before?, they are so slow and his gunner is harmless so, not everybody have Ju52.

 

Just now, HR_Tofolo said:

P-40 is an engine-management nightmare

yes, but this depend of pilot skill, the plane is very competitive vrs Emil they are good rival, reds are using like Jabo and they died because the come slow, and low, so if they using like high figter and take advange of this high armament and resistence to high velocity, must be like FW190, reds are not playing like another campaing only a few player are taking seriously.

Just now, HR_Tofolo said:

Pe-2 has half of any blue bomber payload

yes but they have almost double velocity of they (111 and Ju52) and a excelent gunner, so they no have many bombs like a Ju88 or He111 but is not foul of Taw creator, Pe2 is not a Heavy Bomber, like Pe8 or TB3, but is a bomber.

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5 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

 

To be honest flying the I-16 against 109's is suicide the moment you takeoff.

So work up your supply (or better still bombing missions) to get a P40 perhaps..?

 

TBH people can do whatever they want - and I get the I16 is outclassed. Id certainly waste a good few if I was to use them but im crap and not in a squad and know my losses would hurt the team which is why I don't. .But that's me and I can enjoy TAW regardless of who wins. 

 

But I don't buy the "shafted", born to loose, unbalanced/nerfed arguments.. Ultimately its not the plane set or the numbers. Its how they are being used and how uselessly they are being wasted on straight run dives into the AA and embroiling dogfights at low altitude. . This afternoon I looked at 3 random sergeant ranks - between the three they had flown 54 combat mission (so excluding the many useless 12 min resupply ops to get a fighter having already lost their initial allocation), lost 25 aircraft to bails/crashes (so not counting ditches) - all this for 3 EA and 15 GA kills between them (no AA, no tanks).

 

Just my own opinion but players losing aircraft at a rate of 8/1 should perhaps consider another career path or tactic at least for one map. 

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26 minutes ago, BOO said:

So work up your supply (or better still bombing missions) to get a P40 perhaps..?

I've avoided flying the I-16 for the most part and have flown mostly Pe-2 sorties so you don't need to tell me that, but when blue has more of everything and better fighters without the grind it puts you at a significant disadvantage.  I will say my performance has been less than good and I need to work harder to improve and reduce the amount of dumb mistakes I make as my G/k to aircraft lost ratio is horrible at 5GK per lost plane.

Edited by Garven_Dreis

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5 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

. I have recorded some bomb runs if anyone wants to do comparison with what they experience. 

 

 

 

Yes, please post them. 

I'm always very interested in other people ideas and tactics .

 

1 hour ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

This game DESPERATELY needs in game voice chat. It would make every single server that much better. I can't imagine it's that hard to implement. Multiplayer games have had voice chat for decades now. It would make teamwork so much easier, you could link up and fly formations with randoms on every server. I wonder if that new tower control feature will be something like that? I wonder how that will work.

You can always join discord or team speak channel

Edited by Carl_infar

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12 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

Yes, please post them. 

I'm always very interested in other people ideas and tactics .

 

You can always join discord or team speak channel

Those 3rd party tools are great, unfortunately not that many people use them. If we had ingame voip we would have far greater teamwork. More people would use it I can almost guarantee that.

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Just now, Garven_Dreis said:

To be honest flying the I-16 against 109's is suicide the moment you takeoff. 

Really guys? I-16 have better roll, better turn rate, and better climb rate, whit WEP its almost than fast like Emil before 3k mtrs, and have much more visibilty from back.

Emil have better armament, resistent to high velocity, and more fast than i16, but is much better at high altitude, if you figth with a Emil low ,I16 have advantage, and if figth with a i16 higth, Emil have adventage, Emil have only 60 bullets cannon to shoot down a plane that is very small and maneuverable, and I16 have much low cal. bullet to shoot donw a figther more big whit week engine. For me, they are equal, pilot decides who wins not the plane.

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1 minute ago, Garven_Dreis said:

I've avoided flying the I-16 for the most part and have flown mostly Pe-2 sorties so you don't need to tell me that, but when blue has more of everything and better fighters without the grind it puts you at a significant disadvantage.  I will say my performance has been less than good and I need to work harder to improve and reduce the amount of dumb mistakes I make.

I get the grind but a few well though out 4 and 5K level bombing missions are less likely to waste airframes in losses to AA, AAA and 109s, offer some challenge in hitting the target from which you can take some pride and may bag you 4CM a go, quickly filling up your stock so the I16 is just something your keeping for the kids and the occasional Sunday fly. Personally, whilst im an awful fighter flyer, I don't think the I16 is too awful if its flown to its advantages (but what do I know)

 

Long Bomber flights are not everyone's bag I know but perhaps we'd still have a couple of hundred airframes left to continue the fight at this point if a few more considered it now and then instead of venturing out at 500M alone for a 15 min one way sortie..

 

I just get the impression on this map many players have been unable or unwilling to find their "place" within the wider venture and are just falling back to their default "WOL" or "fck it"practices with whatever they have,. Some go further to then blame campaign mechanics whilst failing to acknowledge that their own poor tactical decisions, in addition to an overall lack of co-ordinated strategy, have contributed to the current malaise that is a dwindling supply.. That's not a comment on you Garven (or if it is then its just as much a comment on me as well) just a general observation.

 

 

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Quote

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31 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

Yes, please post them. 

I'm always very interested in other people ideas and tactics .

 

I dont think level bomb at high altitude is a particularly unique tactic.

 

Looks like tracks are several hundred mb a piece... Heres pictures of flak(it doesnt look too bad in still pictures) and someones end of a long mission streak. 5500 m IIRC.

Edited by LeLv76_Erkki

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Why was I given a 15 minute ban 10 seconds after joining the server? I had just got in at 83/84 and got insta banned. That's pretty lame.

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1) "The Ally plane set on Map #1 is inadequate"

>  While it is weak, I disagree.  With 50 planes left in the Ally supply list, Allies still have stalled the Axis advance and pushed back in places.

 

2) "No matter how much the Allies "push back", attrition will still lead to Axis winning the map."

>  I disagree.  I still stand by my assessment that capturing the southern depot when it was exposed would have given Allies enough momentum to keep capturing the rest of the Axis territory before attrition took its toll.

 

3) "Allies can't win due to being outnumbered."

>  I disagree.  Axis consistently having more players online is a story as old as the IL2 series has had multiplayer.  Absorb it and plan accordingly.  Besides, refer to point #1.

 

4) "Map #1 is purpose-built to give Axis a "give me" victory to set the "tone" of the historical situation. 

> I disagree.  It's illogical. That would mean Axis should have to ultimately win 6/8 for campaign victory and Allies only would have to win 5/8.  As far as I can tell, nobody is here to participate in battle reenactment where the winner of this phase of the war is already known.

 

5) "Being that the map and plane set are wonky, fly for yourself and don't worry about trying to win."

> Sorry to those who feel that way, but every time I go to multiplayer, I play for TEAM wins.  Personal wins such as, filling my plane set or scoring high are all nice bonuses on the way to team victory. 

 

I think I really need to take a break from this though.  People can complain about Luftwhiners all they want, but being served Red whine with chicken is bad for my stomach too. 

 

I wish ye all luck in battle, maybe I'll check the map progress sometime.   

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