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Tactical Air War

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26 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

I don't understand the double standards when it comes to historical accuracy. 

 

On one hand people advocate for it when it comes to plane sets, accurate flight and damage models. On the other hand they want to fly their bombers alone without escort.

Its also not about killing/surviving but about dropping their bombs. A few more flak positions like we have in place already wouldn't change the survival rate of the bombers. It might even increase it considering that fighters wouldn't simply hug the depot but actively try to hunt for the incoming Bombers to prevent a Bomb drop. Why is this unpopular right now? because the chance that a Bomber is sneaking passed is high. That's why people don't do it and rather take the likely bomb drop on their depot. 

The reasoning behind survival is wrong and misleading. Bomber pilots don't die because the mission is too dangerous but rather because they fly solo. That's why depots are a fighter pilots buffet. However, like i said. It won't change the survival rate but give fighters a better chance to prevent a bomb drop.

 

This is admittedly a quite complex approach to solve the issue and unlikely to get implemented. A more simple approach, which will be unpopular as well i assume, is to further limit the availability of Bombers so that they are valued more.

 

Either way. It might not be an obvious issue for the majority right now but i think that with the the more detailed information about how depots work, we will see an increase. 

what You propose is to make the fighters even more lasy then now. Instead of patrolling the aproaches and dividing between them the sectors and looking for the enemy they will just wait for advance warning.

 

Anyway I didnt see You flying bombers and yet You have a lot to say how they should be flown…

 

Edited by Carl_infar
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You must have some form of bias against me, otherwise i fail to see how you come to these conclusions. 

 

What we have now is lazy for fighters. Simply wait for Bombers at the Depot. How can anything be more lazy than that? Did you ever ask yourself why fighters aren't doing what you suggest? It is absolutely impracticable. My changes would do the exact opposite! it would encourage to be more active and try to predict flight patterns based on the intel you get. In the end its about how you implement it in detail but like i said i am not talking about a flightradar24 type of thing.

 

Just because i don't fly bombers doesn't mean i am not involved in it as a fighter. You always seem to try to divide people by claiming they are either one or the other. You suggest changes where red would benefit from? you must be only flying red! you suggest changes to bombers? you must want to have an easier time as a fighter pilot! 

 

We are all playing the same game and some are trying to improve the general gameplay for both sides. Try remembering that sometimes.

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39 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

You must have some form of bias against me, otherwise i fail to see how you come to these conclusions. 

 

What we have now is lazy for fighters. Simply wait for Bombers at the Depot. How can anything be more lazy than that? Did you ever ask yourself why fighters aren't doing what you suggest? It is absolutely impracticable. My changes would do the exact opposite! it would encourage to be more active and try to predict flight patterns based on the intel you get. In the end its about how you implement it in detail but like i said i am not talking about a flightradar24 type of thing.

 

Just because i don't fly bombers doesn't mean i am not involved in it as a fighter. You always seem to try to divide people by claiming they are either one or the other. You suggest changes where red would benefit from? you must be only flying red! you suggest changes to bombers? you must want to have an easier time as a fighter pilot! 

 

We are all playing the same game and some are trying to improve the general gameplay for both sides. Try remembering that sometimes.

 

 

The facts are as follows : now if they wait above depot (and are too lazy to patrol the approaches) the bomber will drop the bombs before going down. if there will be a detailed early warning net they will just sit at the depot and fly in direction form which the warning comes without the need to do much thinking etc.

 

Anyway when I'm on depot def mission I always patrol the most probable approach routes which sometimes is succesfull and sometimes not which is as it should be. With detailed info there is just no fun in it. Difference is like between hunting a deer in woods and going to slaughter house...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Carl_infar

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17 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

Said the guy who while playing red this campaign was ridiculing when people were writing that the team work improved on blue side (i guess to improve the game play)

 

Not quite true. I was making a light hearted joke about it while at the same time i was actually agreeing that it indeed has improved. 

 

19 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

The facts are as follows : now if they wait above depot (and are too lazy to patrol the approaches) the bomber will drop the bombs before going down. if there will be a detailed early warning net they will just sit at the depot and fly in direction form which the warning comes without the need to do much thinking etc.

 

That's why it comes down to the detail on how something similar to this can be implemented. I particularly said several times that i am not proposing a detailed early warning system. If they would fly simply to the called out position they can easily be fooled by not taking the direct path to the depot. This would actually increase the survival changes of bombers and would give a bit more historical accuracy, but like i said, ..double standards.

 

I think we can at least agree on that the Depot gameplay is extremely dull for both sides. 

 

 

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An early warning system isn't without historic precedence on the Eastern Front either though not as sophisticated as the British radar net. Telephone and radio nets were set up along the front to pass information. Some of that information included aircraft spotting reports. These reports would be simple, rough position and direction when spotted and maybe altitude. Some times these reports were very vague, along the lines of, 'we are at this location and hear a plane probably going that way.' This would then be passed down the line and if practicable planes would be dispatched to attempt an intercept. In some cases where radio equipped planes were available and in the area they could be directed to attempt an intercept. Even with two of the parts of a report a lone bomber, or even a small group, would be hard to find. Unless the report came in while you were within visual range of the target already.

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1 hour ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

 

I think we can at least agree on that the Depot gameplay is extremely dull for both sides. 

 

 

 

 

I have actually spotted people "botting" the depots. 

 

Put on auto level, have a set speed and heading. Go make food, come back at right time, drop bombs and set heading back. Come back after set time and land. 

I followed 109 (the +1 plane) doing this, shot a bit at him (missed, bounced back up and noticed no reaction from him so i got curious), then started to do aerobatic in front of him because he was totally unresponsive... over the target, he dropped bomb, 180 degree turn and auto level. Did not even take the time to look around and see me (some times they just disconnect, too). Playing like a total sleepwalker. And he was also flying the whole time just above 500 meters. 

 

Talk about autolevel shenanigans getting even worse in MP.... 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy

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Doesn't flying in vicinity of enemy airfields trigger a text alert for the enemy side? I always stay way clear of all airfields not to trigger it, as well as not to be seen by anyone taking off there. Flying on auto level directly to the target should get you exposed, unless enemy is not paying any attention. Also not sure how you navigate to target this way - sure, dead reckoning works with constant speed, and you can get AFK for the first half of your flight, but then you still need to pinpoint yourself on the map well in advance of flying over the target. I have another explanation - they guy was flying in sight mode with view angle at 70% and was tracking his position as he approached the target. When I fly Ju88, I do this as soon as I set my plane on the combat course to the target. I guess a lot of bomber pilots would prefer to approach the target either into the wind or with the wind to minimize the impact of changing the wind correction setting as they change the course while aiming - this gives the defenders two most probable sectors of approach, and the one offering the shortest distance from the bomber's airfield will be the one most likely used (bomber pilots are also lazy :). Finally, unless AAA is destroyed, approaching a depot from a 0.5km altitude should be a suicide - I'm surprised the guy managed to get over the target without being shredded to pieces by AAA.

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6 hours ago, Disarray said:

An early warning system isn't without historic precedence on the Eastern Front either though not as sophisticated as the British radar net. Telephone and radio nets were set up along the front to pass information. Some of that information included aircraft spotting reports. These reports would be simple, rough position and direction when spotted and maybe altitude. Some times these reports were very vague, along the lines of, 'we are at this location and hear a plane probably going that way.' This would then be passed down the line and if practicable planes would be dispatched to attempt an intercept. In some cases where radio equipped planes were available and in the area they could be directed to attempt an intercept. Even with two of the parts of a report a lone bomber, or even a small group, would be hard to find. Unless the report came in while you were within visual range of the target already.

You have the network already in place in TAW.

Along the moving frontline there are units which position is unknown to enemy and which report enemy planes flying within some miles from them (irrespective of the weather...)

 

In my opinion any further additional info will make the live of the bombers which is now miserable even worse

 

Anyway as a bomber to get  ground kills you must each time enter the enemy territory and suffer flack and fighters (unlike fighters who when they want to score kills and points, can stay all day on friendly territory... )

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7 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Server down!

 

Sorry guys, our server provider did maintenance work tonight.

 

Kathon will start the Dserver soon.

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2 hours ago, StG2_Raven said:

 

Sorry guys, our server provider did maintenance work tonight.

 

Kathon will start the Dserver soon.

I was doing about 1h trip on 88. Would get combat mission, server went down 10 km till the enemy depot. I demand 2 CM for myself as wind conditions were 0 m/s :)

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3 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

In my opinion any further additional info will make the live of the bombers which is now miserable even worse

 

Anyway as a bomber to get  ground kills you must each time enter the enemy territory and suffer flack and fighters (unlike fighters who when they want to score kills and points, can stay all day on friendly territory... )

 

I feel sorry for you because you seem to never get any fighter escort ;)

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2 hours ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

I feel sorry for you because you seem to never get any fighter escort ;)

 

It's actually quite hard to get useful fighter escort... 😐 Seriously escorting medium bombers is not necessary that easy and it to be effective you would need 3 groups (forward sweep, close escort and high cover). If bombing from a bit higher altitude like from 5000m or so flak is not normally really a problem anymore but if enemy fighters spot you and have half a idea what they are doing, you are pretty much done.

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Well in a perfect scenario you fly with 3 groups maybe but flying with just 1 escort who goes ahead to the depot and engages fighters will already increase your survival rate by a lot. Especially because on high altitudes there is not a lot the VVS can do to stop a 109. 

 

We aren't on the same side but otherwise i would have gladly done the escort duty for you ;)

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There is one thing considering stats that I don't quite understand. Why the (ground)kills you get are not added to your total sum if you are killed or something during the mission? This doesn't make sense to me, since the targets you destroyed before you were killed are still destroyed and you still did it regardless what happens you afterwards.

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4 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

Well in a perfect scenario you fly with 3 groups maybe but flying with just 1 escort who goes ahead to the depot and engages fighters will already increase your survival rate by a lot. Especially because on high altitudes there is not a lot the VVS can do to stop a 109. 

 

We aren't on the same side but otherwise i would have gladly done the escort duty for you ;)

Thx. And I will hold You to Your word if we will fly the same side ;)

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40 minutes ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

 

It's actually quite hard to get useful fighter escort... 😐 Seriously escorting medium bombers is not necessary that easy and it to be effective you would need 3 groups (forward sweep, close escort and high cover). If bombing from a bit higher altitude like from 5000m or so flak is not normally really a problem anymore but if enemy fighters spot you and have half a idea what they are doing, you are pretty much done.

Ever tried to ask help from other Finnish fighter squads? ;)

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35 minutes ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Ever tried to ask help from other Finnish fighter squads? ;)

 

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18 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

 Difference is like between hunting a deer in woods and going to slaughter house...

 

Yes indeed.

 

People really need to be careful with all these brilliant ideas.  Some of them will simply push a critically endangered species(bomber pilots) into extinction and then you'll need to replace them with AI or make peace with Berloga.

 

I can't remember the stats Kathon posted on flights by aircraft type from a few campaigns ago.  What was it, 85% are in fighter? More?  Something like that.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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20 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

 

 

The facts are as follows : now if they wait above depot (and are too lazy to patrol the approaches) the bomber will drop the bombs before going down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With vision range of 10km (or was it reduced to 7km), you need to be complete handles fool not to be able to sneak to depot unnoticed.  (At clear sky conditions at 3km and above it is not uncommon to have visibility up to 30km, And that is if we don't take in to account the reflective surfaces, that can give away planes position closer to 50km, as was the case in pacific theater)

 

At average speed of 400km/h, it takes 90 seconds to traverse 10km. That means you have under  two minutes to spot, identify and intercept a bomber. 

Historically, bomber formations were seen and most importantly, HEARD, coming hours before they got to target (and lets face it, if this was not so, having an interceptors on standby to scramble would have been an lost cause from beginning). Lone bombers never happened and most bombing raids happened at dark, for a VERY good reason. (Also, reasons stated above is why Mosquito was such a pain in the arse to counter, as it left so little time to react and was so bloody fast, still even mosquito don't come close to the ninja ability of 111 with 10km distance limitations and no early warning network to write home about causes.)

 

In here we never get night missions and rarely bad weather missions. Its blue skies all day erry day 90% of time but because of visual range limitations, doing #YOLO swag run against enemy depot is so easy its boring (but hey, at least you can see the target you bomb clearly :crazy:). 

Last few TAW's I've flown Pe2s to depots and only once I've ran in to stray 110 on his way to his own target. And only time it is even remotely risky is when you got full house of a server (40+ players on each side). At the low pop hours (70% of server time) one can(and some do) fly afk bomber, afk fighters and sometimes afk bathtubs (1942, colorized.) on autolevel at depots and back all day long. 

 

If bombing goes extinct it is not because it is hard, it because it about as entertaining as watching the paint dry. 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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5 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:

Ever tried to ask help from other Finnish fighter squads? ;)

 

Why do you think I said useful fighter escort is hard to get? 😄 Seriously, we have had that and while it does improve chance to survive there is still a good chance that bombers will be shot down. And ofc always depends on who is online and available. There was also something else I was going to say but got disrupted by wife...

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51 minutes ago, LLv44_Mprhead said:

 

I said useful fighter escort is hard to get

😀 Better to switch side then 😅

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1 hour ago, LLv34_adexu said:

😀 Better to switch side then 😅

But they don't have Ju 88 :( We actually need more practise with this fighter escort thing also. And if the enemy fighters come with higher energy state and are willing to sacrifice their position, it's more or less impossible intercept them before they inflict some serious damage to (german) bombers. It is probably quite accurate historically that neither ju 88 nor he 111 can take many hits from 20mm. And btw I am not complaining about anything. If I get shot down when bombing enemy depot alone, it is a risk I took and nobody else is to blame. Ofc  a bit different if you ask for escort and nobody comes but I don't see that really a problem as usually someone is willing to come if there are people online. Maybe it's different for attack planes that need to go down low. I really don't know about that.

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With the Battle of Stalingrad coming to an end, i want to say that this was one of the best battles i have experienced within the campaign.  Relentless Tank columns pushing every round and VVS being on its last leg desperately trying to hold on to these 2 airfields. 

 

Its sad that this battle came to an end with a tank column spawn instantly deactivating Erzovka...

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10 hours ago, No.615_Kai_Lae said:

 

 

Too bad Siddy is shooting chutes. Though he was ok guy. But seems like that is the only thing he can hit :(


Is this chute killing really thing on TAW? I never have been shot in the chute. Rarely bail out tho. Some of other Finnish guys started to shoot chutes as they have been shot. I must admit, that I will probably start shooting chutes too, if I will get shot in the chute, at least for couple of missions. What is the point of shooting chutes? To remove some  aces from that top5 fighters scoreboard. Why?

 

EDIT: LLv34 is not shooting chutes in any circumstances. Order of our squadron leader and it is against Geneve contract. 

Edited by LLv34_adexu

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2 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Too bad Siddy is shooting chutes. Though he was ok guy. But seems like that is the only thing he can hit :(


Is this chute killing really thing on TAW? I never have been shot in the chute. Rarely bail out tho. Some of other Finnish guys started to shoot chutes as they have been shot. I must admit, that I will probably start shooting chutes too, if I will get shot in the chute, at least for couple of missions. What is the point of shooting chutes? To remove some  aces from that top5 fighters scoreboard. Why?

 

EDIT: LLv34 is not shooting chutes in any circumstances. Order of our squadron leader and it is against Geneve contract. 

I was shot on a chute just two days ago, didn't need to put salt on my fries that night I had plenty left. Let's not bring chute killing discusion back, it is allowed and it makes sense in a way. Real men don't shoot chutes.

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Without saying that VVS should have won map#3, i can't help but feel a little gut punched by how it ended. The last resistance was broken by spawns instantly deactivating airfields without a chance to fight back..

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Ivy, I like your early warning system. We have radar for our public Cliffs server written by Donkey. It makes it easy to link up with friendly bombers as well as intercept. I have found that it concentrates fights as opposed to just being a bomber smash. Radar takes away the aimless wandering.

 

You can also fly out on the deck to avoid it. ATAG also has radar and bombers still get through. The 69th drops bombs all day even with early warning.

 

Radar will improve the server by concentrating the action. It's also somewhat realistic. I know the Germans had Freya, do the Russians have a radar system? It's a gap in my history knowledge. Even if it's just something like a British style Observer Corps I imagine the Russians had something. Radar and early warning observers work both ways. You can use it as a bomber pilot to avoid the enemy patrols.

 

What did they actually use on the Eastern Front? Freya for Germans, Russians had what?

 

 

EDIT

 

Donkey just told me there is no way to extract the data and it's impossible to make a radar for BoX. Apologies if I am misquoting him I am no code wizard like he is nor do I have the proper language to describe what he can do.

 

We need Jason to turn enable:

 

log event ID 17

 

It was a debug entry that USED to be there and gave  XYZ of all assets every 20 seconds or so.

 

Donkey just informed me it was turned off a couple months back.

 

If we want radar help me ask.

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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5 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

Can someone explain why my wing on my 109 just disappered.... http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=29118&name=SCG_Sinerox No one hit me, did'nt hit the ground on taxi or on take off and it just falls off and I die...

Where you not pulling "Gs" or in a dive? I know it sounds obvious but unless you are looking you can end up too fast and then shit happens

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On 7/4/2018 at 9:43 PM, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

I don't understand the double standards when it comes to historical accuracy. 

 

On one hand people advocate for it when it comes to plane sets, accurate flight and damage models. On the other hand they want to fly their bombers alone without escort.

Its also not about killing/surviving but about dropping their bombs. A few more flak positions like we have in place already wouldn't change the survival rate of the bombers. It might even increase it considering that fighters wouldn't simply hug the depot but actively try to hunt for the incoming Bombers to prevent a Bomb drop. Why is this unpopular right now? because the chance that a Bomber is sneaking passed is high. That's why people don't do it and rather take the likely bomb drop on their depot. 

The reasoning behind survival is wrong and misleading. Bomber pilots don't die because the mission is too dangerous but rather because they fly solo. That's why depots are a fighter pilots buffet. However, like i said. It won't change the survival rate but give fighters a better chance to prevent a bomb drop.

 

This is admittedly a quite complex approach to solve the issue and unlikely to get implemented. A more simple approach, which will be unpopular as well i assume, is to further limit the availability of Bombers so that they are valued more.

 

Either way. It might not be an obvious issue for the majority right now but i think that with the the more detailed information about how depots work, we will see an increase. 

You can patrol ways where should bombers come with fighters. So spend resources to defend depots. Other way it will be too easy for fighters to increasing there streaks. I know a lot of pilots who just hunting for streaks and not for team targets.

On 7/4/2018 at 10:39 PM, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

You must have some form of bias against me, otherwise i fail to see how you come to these conclusions. 

 

What we have now is lazy for fighters. Simply wait for Bombers at the Depot. How can anything be more lazy than that? Did you ever ask yourself why fighters aren't doing what you suggest? It is absolutely impracticable. My changes would do the exact opposite! it would encourage to be more active and try to predict flight patterns based on the intel you get. In the end its about how you implement it in detail but like i said i am not talking about a flightradar24 type of thing.

 

Just because i don't fly bombers doesn't mean i am not involved in it as a fighter. You always seem to try to divide people by claiming they are either one or the other. You suggest changes where red would benefit from? you must be only flying red! you suggest changes to bombers? you must want to have an easier time as a fighter pilot! 

 

We are all playing the same game and some are trying to improve the general gameplay for both sides. Try remembering that sometimes.

I fly both sides and on fighters and bombers. And your succession will decrease a number of bombers in times. There will be suicide missions for single bombers or for groupes without cap. Try to fly bomber missions to understand that it’s not so easy and if it will be one way flights then we will loose half of bombers on both sides. 

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I can personally say that the balance on this rendition of TAW is the worst I've ever seen. I'm not sure what point the germans are getting out of it, since I don't see how flying unopposed is entertaining. Most russian pilots I know are saying they're probably going to stop flying, so GG germans? I know I'm not good enough to engage 2-3 at once in a slower plane.  

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