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Tactical Air War

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57 minutes ago, Banzaii said:

  Stats are a meaningless number unless you look at the context. Stats will always be the bane of these campaigns.

 

um...  The "getting killed" stat is actually pretty meaningful.  In real life you only get 1.

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18 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

um...  The "getting killed" stat is actually pretty meaningful.  In real life you only get 1.

 

In real life fascist  also lost, how real life you want to go? 

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on another note, does the Pe-2 87 transport work?  I cant get one out without server kicking me out. No matter what load out configuration i pick for transport. 

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10 hours ago, =LG=Kathon said:

 

The F-4 is not available at the beginning and it's 0/1 after F-2 0/1 so it takes a while to get this plane.

 

 

 

Kathon - I wondered how added aircraft were chosen.  So, assuming you checked fighters only on your profile, are you saying that the next available fighter (meaning the numerator is less than the denominator for that aircrafts inventory - e.g. 0/1, 0/2, 1/2,  0/3, 1/3, 2/3) from top to bottom on the list of fighter aircraft in your profile is chosen next?

 

I thought I saw some randomness to it, but maybe I just missed the obvious pattern :).  Thanks in advance for clarifying/verifying.

 

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On 6/27/2018 at 12:09 AM, =FEW=Hauggy said:

Congrats on adding more 109 F4s the absence of this plane in the early maps was one of the only reasons I played on your server.

At least I had a reason to fly the F2 and the campaign was all the more enjoyable on the Russian side.

What's the next step? G14 on map 3?

That's a terrible choice...

We are not using f4 this map! I told our guys do not fly it.

i think lg returned to blue and give themselves some advantage. That what are we thinking!

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LG said that they were going for a more historical planeset rather than balanced. The F-4 was present at the time. Maybe not in this particular configuration, but it was there. It's not single-handedly going to win the entire campaign for blue.

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6 minutes ago, 7./JG26_Shadepiece said:

LG said that they were going for a more historical planeset rather than balanced. The F-4 was present at the time. Maybe not in this particular configuration, but it was there. It's not single-handedly going to win the entire campaign for blue.

 

Wouldn't be an issue if VVS would have gotten the yak, which was also present at the battle of Moscow in an earlier version. Due to this selective picking it leaves questions open.

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nice picture

I hope next edition , red  team, have same oportunities for fun ( and win ) , capturing bases.

 

any enemy fighter oposition conquering bases last night?? how many "kamikaze ju52" death?

 

:):):)

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

Wouldn't be an issue if VVS would have gotten the yak, which was also present at the battle of Moscow in an earlier version. Due to this selective picking it leaves questions open.


Agreed on the need for another Yak variant for Moscow, but I'm unsure what can really be done here seeing as the -1b wasn't in service until midway through 1942, some months after our current date on the TAW map.  Likewise, the numbers of them in the skies would be limited due to being a one-off collector's plane, so I don't know to what extent, really, this would help Red out.  I know the series 69 Yak-1 in BoS's base content may not have flown over Moscow, but perhaps it's a better fit?  Though, we'd still run into issues of realism/historical accuracy, as the engine that plane sports likewise wasn't around 'till 42 - I don't know much about the plane otherwise, so maybe you all could better judge whether it should be around.

Just gonna go out on a limb and say that German pilots flying one F-4 at a time isn't going to win the war for anyone.  Air to air combat is practically useless for moving the lines anyway.  Can they really kill attackers/bombers that much better than anything else?  I'm not convinced.

Edited by Shively

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Posted (edited)

Come on guys , Hmmm....Lots of sly comments being made  here are the kids of school. 

You do know it's a computer game . Right . !!!.

We are all here for same reason we love combat flight sims . And I'm sure a lot of effort has gone into making this server .

Just fly and enjoy your free time . 

Edited by II./JG77_Con
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

Had a great time with Coldman, some of the SCG members, and another person, (Forgot his name, sorry!)

 

But this is what true teamwork is, Thanks for the great time coldman...

 

utOW2SK.jpg

It was actually operation by Finnish LLv34, LLv24, LLv32 and LLv44 squads. We were going to take 5 Ju-52 there, but as we noticed there was more of Ju's on field, many took 109 instead from another AF's We had some Ju-52s in air and 109s covering them and keeping those enemies away from action. We found enemy fighters nearby their AF at 5-7 km alt. We had all around 10-15 guys during that operation in the air.

 

 

Edited by LLv34_adexu

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24 minutes ago, Shively said:

Just gonna go out on a limb and say that German pilots flying one F-4 at a time isn't going to win the war for anyone.  Air to air combat is practically useless for moving the lines anyway.  Can they really kill attackers/bombers that much better than anything else?  I'm not convinced.

 

Again, over and over again, its not about balance. Its about historical accuracy. 

Beside that, following your logic VVS could also get the Yak 1b on map 2. It has less fire power than the I-16 with 20mm therefor it is better at killing attackers/bombers?

 

 

In the end there is simply nothing to add to this discussion anymore and i think nobody is disagreeing that having the F-4 but not the Yak is historically wrong (following Kathons logic). It would be nice to know the reason for this selective picking of historical accuracy though @=LG=Kathon. Did you guys simply not know about the Yak being present as well? in that case, why don't you release the change log before the campaign starts so people can actually voice their opinions and or fix things?.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

Love the early maps. I am enjoying the challenge of the early VVS stuff vs the F4.

 

Not sarcasm. I'm having a lot of fun. Thanks.


I think its right to take the challenge and go and do the best. Even outnumbered. But I think its right as well to ask what the intenttion was with the change.
Some poeple interpreted it as crying. Which is fun since many players who have complained are flying both sides. They would profit from powerful planes next campaign.
 

Edited by DerSheriff
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27 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

Again, over and over again, its not about balance. Its about historical accuracy. 

Beside that, following your logic VVS could also get the Yak 1b on map 2. It has less fire power than the I-16 with 20mm therefor it is better at killing attackers/bombers?

 

 

In the end there is simply nothing to add to this discussion anymore and i think nobody is disagreeing that having the F-4 but not the Yak is historically wrong (following Kathons logic). It would be nice to know the reason for this selective picking of historical accuracy though @=LG=Kathon. Did you guys simply not know about the Yak being present as well? in that case, why don't you release the change log before the campaign starts so people can actually voice their opinions and or fix things?.

I can understand that it seems unfair and I personally would be ok w/o F4 as I still don't have it. But like Kathon said, not that many pilots have F4. Also F4 saw front line in June 41. Yak-1b was 42 plane? That would be inaccurate. Map #2 is almost over, but if in future projects removing F4 would make ppl more happy and we could get more pilots on the VVS side to fight first maps, that should be done. :) 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, AKA_Relent said:

 

Kathon - I wondered how added aircraft were chosen.  So, assuming you checked fighters only on your profile, are you saying that the next available fighter (meaning the numerator is less than the denominator for that aircrafts inventory - e.g. 0/1, 0/2, 1/2,  0/3, 1/3, 2/3) from top to bottom on the list of fighter aircraft in your profile is chosen next?

 

I thought I saw some randomness to it, but maybe I just missed the obvious pattern :).  Thanks in advance for clarifying/verifying.

 

Planes are not added to hangar randomly but in an order e.g. F2 is added first before F4.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

Again, over and over again, its not about balance. Its about historical accuracy. 

Beside that, following your logic VVS could also get the Yak 1b on map 2. It has less fire power than the I-16 with 20mm therefor it is better at killing attackers/bombers?

 

 

In the end there is simply nothing to add to this discussion anymore and i think nobody is disagreeing that having the F-4 but not the Yak is historically wrong (following Kathons logic). It would be nice to know the reason for this selective picking of historical accuracy though @=LG=Kathon. Did you guys simply not know about the Yak being present as well? in that case, why don't you release the change log before the campaign starts so people can actually voice their opinions and or fix things?.

I will not write that this solution is perfect or ideal and it will stay like that forever ;) We wanted to give Axis slight advantage (Allied have advantage in Il-2). It's a kind of test how impact this solution would have on the game play. Some decisions are good some are bad but we can draw conclusion after testing them. 

 

Here are numbers of sorties of Bf 109 F4 and other Axis planes. You can see that F4 sorties are minority. 

 

 

image.png

Edited by =LG=Kathon

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Posted (edited)

Yes because most of us do not fly them. Bat we have!

Edited by =KK=Des_
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LLv34_adexu said:

 

Congratulations on your successful mission.
But be careful not to be as funny as we were a few days ago...

 

 

c9DxmzL.gif

 

PMUpYUX.gif

 

Edited by III./JG5_a9305093
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55 minutes ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

 

Again, over and over again, its not about balance. Its about historical accuracy. 

Beside that, following your logic VVS could also get the Yak 1b on map 2. It has less fire power than the I-16 with 20mm therefor it is better at killing attackers/bombers?

 

I find it curious that you elected to ignore the majority of my post that already delved into questions of historical accuracy, but such is the way of things.

 

109 F-4 took to the skies over Moscow.  Yak-1b did not.  That's the long and short of it. 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

I will not write that this solution is perfect or ideal and it will stay like that forever ;) We wanted to give Axis slight advantage (Allied have advantage in Il-2). It's a kind of test how impact this solution would have on the game play. Some decisions are good some are bad but we can draw conclusion after testing them. 

 

Here are numbers of sorties of Bf 109 F4 and other Axis planes. You can see that F4 sorties are minority. 

 

First of all, thank you for engaging in this discussion!

 

So historical accuracy played no major part in that. I understand that there is some need to balance things, after all i supported a "buff" to axis for a very long time. However i think that the majority plays this Sim for historical accuracy and therefor i am very much against this approach to change the plane set that way. So what would i suggest?

 

I think in order to make a historical plane set viable, the Mission itself needs to get re-balanced. At the moment the impact of tank columns is huge which gives VVS the advantage. Creating different objectives and/or giving depots/train stations/supply columns and airfields a more important role would have a way bigger and more positive impact than any plane set change can ever achieve.

 

 

For example airfields could be much more affected by damage when it comes to plane selection. In turn this would make supply columns and train stations more valuable. Honestly, after playing several TAW campaigns the mentioned objectives never really felt like they would make a difference in the bigger picture. All it boils down to is disabling airfields with tanks or level bombing. 

 

It would be nice to get a change log before the mission starts in the future.

 

Also providing numbers/graphs only on the F-4 doesn't give us a lot to compare it to. @=LG=Kathon can you maybe compare the numbers of the F-4 to the MiG 3? should give us a better perspective. 

 

14 minutes ago, Shively said:

I find it curious that you elected to ignore the majority of my post that already delved into questions of historical accuracy, but such is the way of things.

 

109 F-4 took to the skies over Moscow.  Yak-1b did not.  That's the long and short of it. 

 

 

I only used the Yak 1b to show that your argument is flawed. Just because something might not be better at killing attackers/bombers doesn't mean it has no impact on the game or that it should be in the plane set. That is all.

Edited by Operatsiya_Ivy
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Just now, Shively said:

109 F-4 took to the skies over Moscow.  Yak-1b did not.  That's the long and short of it. 

The F-4 that took to the skies above Moscow didn't have clearance for 1.42 ata. The F-4 we have in game has engine clearance of July 1942. Hence the post of Operation_Ivy : Since yaks (in early forms) were present over Moscow, VVS should have access to yak1. 

 

 

The F4's presence isn't the issue I think. What is the issue is the discrepancy in player numbers in the early maps - map 1 especially. I think it's due to people's perception/opinion on the VVS planeset for these maps (mostly ishaks and P-40's, arguably hard planes to fly). The presence of the F-4 might discourage VVS pilots to effectively take part in map 2 leading to less VVS pilots for map 2 than expected, just a hypothese though.

I predict that, once the mig comes available in numbers, the lagg and yak are available too, the numbers will equal out more, and VVS will once again start winning the maps through objectives. 

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Well, answer is simple, if the F-4 in question was not historic for the time period, then add the Yak-1 of the comparable series that is *also* not historic.

 

You cannot justify of using non time period F-4 if you use the same rationale to disqualify Yak-1. This right here is the double standard that gets peoples back hair standing. 

 

Either add both or add neither. 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

Had a great time with Coldman, some of the SCG members, and another person, (Forgot his name, sorry!)

 

But this is what true teamwork is, Thanks for the great time coldman...

 

utOW2SK.jpg

That was indeed a great sortie. SCG flew 5 of the Ju-52s, one redundant to make sure we capture Ryabinki in one go, albeit one had to return early due to an engine failure. So it was all right. Shame that no individual points are given for such missions ;)

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, LLv34_adexu said:

It was actually operation by Finnish LLv34, LLv24, LLv32 and LLv44 squads. We were going to take 5 Ju-52 there, but as we noticed there was more of Ju's on field, many took 109 instead from another AF's We had some Ju-52s in air and 109s covering them and keeping those enemies away from action. We found enemy fighters nearby their AF at 5-7 km alt. We had all around 10-15 guys during that operation in the air.

As i said earlier Without fighter escort on multiple levels of altitude this mission would end drastically worse. We were aware of high altitude red fighters by our scout cover high and know the positsion of front line artillery due to scout fighters on low altitude so we could avoid all threats and luckly land in base safetly without losses. :salute:

Edited by =L/R=Coldman

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2 hours ago, Operatsiya_Ivy said:

I think in order to make a historical plane set viable, the Mission itself needs to get re-balanced. At the moment the impact of tank columns is huge which gives VVS the advantage. Creating different objectives and/or giving depots/train stations/supply columns and airfields a more important role would have a way bigger and more positive impact than any plane set change can ever achieve.

 

For example airfields could be much more affected by damage when it comes to plane selection. In turn this would make supply columns and train stations more valuable. Honestly, after playing several TAW campaigns the mentioned objectives never really felt like they would make a difference in the bigger picture. All it boils down to is disabling airfields with tanks or level bombing. 

 

It would be nice to get a change log before the mission starts in the future.

 

Also providing numbers/graphs only on the F-4 doesn't give us a lot to compare it to. @=LG=Kathon can you maybe compare the numbers of the F-4 to the MiG 3? should give us a better perspective. 

 

 

God ideas about objectives ;)

 

F-4 vs Mig3 

image.png.df47e6bb4cb95e5afbddb5b50b24f41b.png

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This is probably the wrong place to ask and a little random. Where do I get the login info for the server?

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utOW2SK.jpg

 

Agree, great fun capturing Ryabinki by 8 (?) x Ju52. I flew in second Group - 6 x Ju52 in close Formation from start to landing, escort fighters around saving our ass. Coldmans advices '80% Throttle....drop 3-2-1...go left 3-2-1' let us keep together. After extra circle with lights on and flares we landed like ducks, one behind the other in Formation, without collision. THX guys!! looking Forward for the Videos ;-) 

 

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

God ideas about objectives ;)

 

F-4 vs Mig3 

image.png.df47e6bb4cb95e5afbddb5b50b24f41b.png

 

 

Reminder, that Map2, you have 1 plane that is competitive against F2 and F4. Its the Mig.  VVS literally have nothing else that can compete.  Now add F2 + F4 and MC 202 vs Mig and we have accurate picture. 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy

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3 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Reminder, that Map2, you have 1 plane that is competitive against F2 and F4. Its the Mig.  VVS literally have nothing else that can compete.  Now add F2 + F4 and MC 202 vs Mig and we have accurate picture. 

 

 

Pe2 seems to be fairly competitive vs. any fighter aircraft blue has. My only serious fear flying one is the angry AAA

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, DerSheriff said:


I think its right to take the challenge and go and do the best. Even outnumbered. But I think its right as well to ask what the intenttion was with the change.
Some poeple interpreted it as crying. Which is fun since many players who have complained are flying both sides. They would profit from powerful planes next campaign.
 

 

 

Oh there is some farming going on in the F4. I'll be happy to be in a more competitive fighter. Right now I'm feeling happy with my 5 kill streak in an I16.    :)

 

 

Server is 31 Vs 1 right now lol.

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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1 minute ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

 

Oh there is some farming going on in the F4. I'll be happy to be in a more competitive fighter. Right now I'm feeling happy with my 5 kill streak in an I16.    :)

 

 

Server is 31 Vs 1 right now lol.

No point in flying when there's only one base to take off from.

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1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Either add both or add neither. 

 

I don't mind a challenge but if you want to avoid whining make it fair. Not even monkeys like unfairness.

 

 

 

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Great video Coldman, beautiful flight of Ju52s! 

Red pilots unite, let's knock at the devs office and demand: WE WANT OUR LI-2

 

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cmon guys!  35 vs 3 !! new challenge for capture airfield.

 

Really i have to Joke. Sorry ;)

 

Chima i was thinking .. one possible solution is made available ju 52 to red side and force use some kind of skin. ( until red side no have li-2 )

 

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Lots of registered red players are not playing. I fail to see how it is blue sides fault when obviously they are waiting for something. I thought stats doesn't mean anything for the glorious vvs pilots but the superior teamplay and so on... Maybe I have misunderstood something.

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I wouldn't like Ju-52 as red transport; LW has this advantage, VVS has other advantages regarding what planes can do. I can wait for Li-2.

Now:

5 hours ago, =LG=Kathon said:

I will not write that this solution is perfect or ideal and it will stay like that forever ;) We wanted to give Axis slight advantage (Allied have advantage in Il-2). It's a kind of test how impact this solution would have on the game play. Some decisions are good some are bad but we can draw conclusion after testing them. 


I like your honesty Kathon, and like and agree on those changes you made in order to do some testing. Unfortunately for admins, with such a difference in current quorums there is not much useful data you can get about how those changes really impact in gameplay balance; LW are winning not because of F4s on the second map, or Ju52s, or the funny self proclaimed propaganda "we are finally doing some good teamwork", they are winning and will win this TAW because of quorums 3-1 most of the time reaching even 9-1 or more sometimes.

We will have to wait a more balanced quorum TAW, to really see the real impact of those changes.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:


We will have to wait a more balanced quorum TAW, to really see the real impact of those changes.

 

 

I learnt a new word today. Quorum,  : 3  a Mormon body comprising those in the same grade of priesthood 

 

I assume you meant this meaning though.   :P

 

1: 1 a select group
2 : the number (such as a majority) of officers or members of a body that when duly assembled is legally competent to transact business

 

41 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Lots of registered red players are not playing. I fail to see how it is blue sides fault when obviously they are waiting for something. I thought stats doesn't mean anything for the glorious vvs pilots but the superior teamplay and so on... Maybe I have misunderstood something.

 

 

So? A lot of Blue are registered who are not flying.

 

It's not just VVS who are better at team play. RAF in Cliffs of Dover are also better in general at team play. Blue suffers from individualism and multiple comms across multiple games. It's not opinion, it is observable in my 3000 hours of SIM stick time. I started RAF but Blue was always short in Cliffs hence being in a German staffel. As teamwork and flying short side is my bag I find myself flying RED.

 

I fly alone most often as a 109 driver.

 

 

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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2 minutes ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

 

So? A lot of Blue are registered who are not flying.

Seems to me that theres lot more blue players online right now. Where are the reds?

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