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Tactical Air War

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6 hours ago, =FSB=Man-Yac said:

This forum should have strawmen awards for people like CptSiddy  

 

 

Yes, because your subjective experiences are more valid than anyone else... oh wait. 

 

I am stating my observations, and i am not alone with them. The only real question is how much of an effect they have. Because its either the flight style (assuming the ground war part of the game is balanced, if not, thats whole another can of worms) of teams or russian bias.

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On 6/14/2018 at 3:07 PM, CptSiddy said:

 

 

There is a thin line between desertion and dereliction of duty and wanting to survive. Its like most of you never served in military in any capacity...

I hate to say it but he has a point. There is no "I solely aim to survive" in the military. There is the mission you fulfill, and if everyone does his part and doesn't chicken out, everyone survives and profits.

 

The point is, if we simulate a war in a videogame, we might want to behave like soldiers. Flying at 6km all time, "Hartmanning" and thinking that makes a good and useful participant, isn't part of that. Videos like the one presented here partly seem to be responsible for that attitude "prouder to make it home alive, than do the job and maybe die in the process". The VVS players somehow have realized that. While I haven't seen 109s escorting a group of attackers at 3km. Most often the reasoning is "the aircraft has no advantage at that altitude", which may be true, but not that relevant, if you have the numerical superiority anyway. It'd be a duckhunt if 50 Germans flew lower at the same altitude and were more eager to engage those 30 Russians on the deck (of which half sit in Peshkas and Stumoviks)...

 

I don't want to step on anyone's toes here. I want that you just give it a thought, and remember the behavior, and things that have been said in these regards.

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Posted (edited)
On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:07 AM, CptSiddy said:

 

 

There is a thin line between desertion and dereliction of duty and wanting to survive. Its like most of you never served in military in any capacity...

 

Yeah, no kidding.  It's bizarre.

 

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 8:13 AM, Feraphic said:

 

This is a video game, fam, not real life. Sure, it's meant to simulate WWII air combat, but it's still a video game nonetheless.

 

 

It's a simulation game.  Part of participating in a sim is behaving, roughly, in a realistic manner. If you aren't interested in doing that(which means placing the objective above your life or the lives of your comrades, period) then I don't see why you would want to fly on TAW rather than WOL or Berloga getting gudfites. 

 

As you said, it's a game, you're not actually going to die so there's no reason to be pathologically risk-averse even if there is no threat of court-martial.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas
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Assuming its on even grounds, you won't achieve anything as axis trying to fight for tank columns. Its simply an uphill battle you cannot win. The reason for that is very complex which would probably take 1-2 pages to fully explain.

 

There is generally the attempt to simplify this issue by saying that pilots of one side are simply playing wrong and it's all their fault. A more challenging approach would be to ask why pilots on a certain side behave like they do. Again, generalizing statements like "they just don't want to die" and "they don't care about the objective" are misleading, add nothing to the discussion and are plain wrong. Assuming that one player base is generally different from the other is a very biased view which i can only explain by them never having flown on both sides extensively. 

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3 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

Assuming its on even grounds, you won't achieve anything as axis trying to fight for tank columns. Its simply an uphill battle you cannot win. The reason for that is very complex which would probably take 1-2 pages to fully explain.

 

There is generally the attempt to simplify this issue by saying that pilots of one side are simply playing wrong and it's all their fault. A more challenging approach would be to ask why pilots on a certain side behave like they do. Again, generalizing statements like "they just don't want to die" and "they don't care about the objective" are misleading, add nothing to the discussion and are plain wrong. Assuming that one player base is generally different from the other is a very biased view which i can only explain by them never having flown on both sides extensively. 

 

 

So the Axis can use their bombers to demolish airfields or whatever technique they want to use, the particulars are totally unimportant.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

So the Axis can use their bombers to demolish airfields or whatever technique they want to use, the particulars are totally unimportant.

 

There is a big big difference between ground attacking and level bombing. There is a reason why level bombing airfields is so unpopular even though it would be the best way for axis to achieve victory.

 

Like i said, it is way more complicated than you seem to make it out to be.

Edited by Operation_Ivy

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52 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

There is a big big difference between ground attacking and level bombing. There is a reason why level bombing airfields is so unpopular even though it would be the best way for axis to achieve victory.

 

+1, but I'm not convinced level bombing is the panacea for Axis woes for the simple fact that most map frames have clouds. I've had targets obscured even under light clouds. Under medium clouds, very good chance there will be accuracy issues. Heavy or worse, forget it.  

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, StG77_HvB said:

 

+1, but I'm not convinced level bombing is the panacea for Axis woes for the simple fact that most map frames have clouds. I've had targets obscured even under light clouds. Under medium clouds, very good chance there will be accuracy issues. Heavy or worse, forget it.  


while you right that it isnt possible each mission it is possible in most missions. 

Edited by DerSheriff

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Here's an idea about stats...

 

Why not track the air/ground kill streaks regardless of if it's "current" or "active".  In other words, show the highest to lowest number of air/bombing/tank kills, period.  Then denote with some symbol if the streak is still active (the current system), and/or if the pilot has never died/been captured (the special award).

 

This way, if someone gets say 50 air kills and then dies/gets captured, it remains stuck at 50 and they remain on the top X list.  There might then be more incentive for that pilot to take more risks on future flights (e.g. help comrades down on the deck :), since their 50 kill streak will still be there until it's surpassed and drops out of the top 5 or whatever.  The way the top 5 stats are now, IMO there is less and less incentive to fly with much risk in the later stages of the campaign, for fear of losing these precious stats/standings.

 

Do I like stats?  Sure, but I don't ever expect to be on the TAW top 5 anyway, so I tend to mix enough risk in my flights as needed to try and hit ground targets, etc., for the team :).  However, it would be great if I somehow did end up on the top 5, that if I died/was captured, that performance/streak that happened a few lives ago might still be enough to be considered a top 5 event. :D.

 

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56 minutes ago, AKA_Relent said:

Here's an idea about stats...

 

Why not track the air/ground kill streaks regardless of if it's "current" or "active".  In other words, show the highest to lowest number of air/bombing/tank kills, period.  Then denote with some symbol if the streak is still active (the current system), and/or if the pilot has never died/been captured (the special award).

 

This way, if someone gets say 50 air kills and then dies/gets captured, it remains stuck at 50 and they remain on the top X list.  There might then be more incentive for that pilot to take more risks on future flights (e.g. help comrades down on the deck :), since their 50 kill streak will still be there until it's surpassed and drops out of the top 5 or whatever.  The way the top 5 stats are now, IMO there is less and less incentive to fly with much risk in the later stages of the campaign, for fear of losing these precious stats/standings.

 

Do I like stats?  Sure, but I don't ever expect to be on the TAW top 5 anyway, so I tend to mix enough risk in my flights as needed to try and hit ground targets, etc., for the team :).  However, it would be great if I somehow did end up on the top 5, that if I died/was captured, that performance/streak that happened a few lives ago might still be enough to be considered a top 5 event. :D.

 

 

 

Good idea, and the rewards, if any, can be awarded as "post mortem" for the top streak, if it was interrupted. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

 

 

 

Loved that show. Used to watch it with my dad.

 

 

 

On topic, is it ready yet?    :P

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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Adding the perspective of a ground attacker of fairly modest ability.  (In the upper half of the team, often the top quarter, on Wings of Liberty, but I think most folks on this forum will understand that is not a very high bar.  Half the team on any given day seem devoted to making their own team's planes go away.)  I have been trying to work up an Axis ground attacker to fly on that side occasionally, and it is a challenge.

Fw 190 A5/U-17 - Bomb load is a bit light, but as far as I am concerned it is the best ground attacker in the game.  Bomb load is a bit light, but good guns.  You get a tail wheel lock, so easier to get down the runway than the rest of them.  But for many scenarios you don't get this version.  You are also removing an excellent fighter from the fighter inventory.  (Temporarily, if all goes well.)

Ju 88 - Good potential but with snake-bit visibility from the pilot's position and non-locking tail wheel this is one of the most challenging in the game to learn to fly off the runway.  Once in the air, excellent bomb load and decent speed.  Plus you get dive brakes.  I believe having the choice between dive bombing and level bombing is important.

Bf 110 - It was a disappointment to notice that, loaded up, I was not going any faster than a Sturmovik 1943 (in the E-3 anyway).  But faster with the bombs off, and you can see out the back.  And more maneuverable.  (Better than a Sturmovik even with the armored head rest.)  I will probably end up flying this one a lot.

Hs 129 - The Duck is presently a tragedy.  Such great guns with the 30 mm cannon, but with the broken engine management too much of your time is spent juggling throttle and RPM.  Worse than a P-40 at lower altitudes.  And we should get a bit more speed, also.  I would expect to fly this one out from time to time just because I like the plane.

 

The abiding question, in my mind:  When, if ever, did the German bomber/attacker designers realize they were not defending against fighters made of wood and canvas?  One of the Peshka's abiding advantages is the 12.7 mm heavy machine gun with a good field of fire in the dorsal position.  It can actually stop an attacking enemy fighter.  The light MGs in the German planes may tag a radiator or oil cooler, giving you the dubious joy of a posthumous aerial victory from time to time, but the concept just does not work.  The Brits also struggled with this concept, whereas even the early A-20 we get has a .50 cal in the dorsal position.  

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The Fw-190A5/U17 has a better known name - the Fw-190F2. Though, the F2 never had the outboard guns mounted. As for rear guns, the Ju-88A5 at some point had the mg81's replaced with a MG131. Also the He-177 had heavy MG's in mounts and sometimes 20mm cannons. So they did upgrade eventually.

 

The Ju-88 should have a option for the Mg131. Perhaps some day it'll be added. 

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Soooo... LG Team, do we have a rough ETA for the next campaign yet?

 

I’m trying to be ‘inclusive’ by letting my wife know in advance when she’ll be ignored and marginalized for a few weeks.

 

 

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On 6/14/2018 at 9:22 PM, CptSiddy said:

 

Why, any 109 can go toe to toe with yak in turn fight. Sure, you wont be getting the advantage of high altitude where yaks lose power. But you are not, by any means, outclassed. 

Having a fur-ball on deck is not elegant, but if it is what it takes to bring the 110's and ju-87's home, then thats what you need to do. Anything less is just going to make TAW really one sided. 

 

What I meant by "turning like crazy" being often the problem was that if you are in german fighter in disadvantage and you try to get out of harms way by turning as tight as you can, you make it quite hard for your buddy higher up to help you out. Ofc being on comms helps a lot in this.

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Posted (edited)

Part 1, on pilot behavior:

Only if your buddies refuse to drop their higher energy state. That's the catch. German pilots refuse to stop their yo-yo super high energy attacks.

 

If you have the numerical advantage, or even if it's one plane less, you'll win against randoms as long as you are better coordinated. Even being on the same comms is usually enough. 

 

I'd say that there are people with 20 air kills who have been much more worthwhile to missions in the last campaign than some with >100. 

 

Part 2, on mission behavior:

I remember seeing JG4 guys bombing and capturing Russian airfields in mass Ju52 fly-ins. Very effective, but not blessed with good stats afterwards. Because killing aircraft rewards more points than buildings and tanks - or dropping paratroopers.

 

The stats place them out of top 5. In reality these guys have been the most valuable Luftwaffe squad in the last campaign. By far. And I say this in all honesty, while being dedicated in another that was in the official top 5. It's just true.

 

 

Last but not least, I am still firmly convinced that the kill streak indicator needs to go from the main page and be replaced by total kills, each of planes, targets, tanks. I have a lot of experience in that regard, and what it creates: I played an Elite-like mmo pvp game called JumpGate 15 years ago and I remember I was driven by the statistics there - it defined the way I flew, and I got the world's best kill streak that was never broken in the game. Sure I was proud of that. But did that make for good PvP? I had more fun flying my secondary in a military like squadron (OV @Siddy). Hence, no. It created bad pvp, and didn't achieve anything.

 

Part 3, conclusion:

Kill streak stats will always be detrimental in an environment, in which the end goal is not a counterstrike-like scoreboard, but an actual mission.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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Hi, I planned to start next TAW  campaign today but unexpected event forced me to postpone it by a few days.

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Posted (edited)

 

 

1 hour ago, =LG=Kathon said:

Hi, I planned to start next TAW  campaign today but unexpected event forced me to postpone it by a few days.

Thank you for message. Will wait))).

Edited by Klever

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5 hours ago, =LG=Kathon said:

Hi, I planned to start next TAW  campaign today but unexpected event forced me to postpone it by a few days.

 

 

Good luck. Look forward to release.

 

I would also like a pre-registration. We like to fly short side or it's boring. A few campaigns back everyone flooded blue after a butt kicking. I want to fly blue next campaign but if there is another exodus of Red to blue I want to wait. GFlying both sides ruined TAW for me. The one before last when I tried to fly both sides for balance I just ghosted out.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/16/2018 at 1:05 AM, Operation_Ivy said:

Assuming its on even grounds, you won't achieve anything as axis trying to fight for tank columns. Its simply an uphill battle you cannot win. The reason for that is very complex which would probably take 1-2 pages to fully explain.

 

There is generally the attempt to simplify this issue by saying that pilots of one side are simply playing wrong and it's all their fault. A more challenging approach would be to ask why pilots on a certain side behave like they do. Again, generalizing statements like "they just don't want to die" and "they don't care about the objective" are misleading, add nothing to the discussion and are plain wrong. Assuming that one player base is generally different from the other is a very biased view which i can only explain by them never having flown on both sides extensively. 

 

 

Soooo, can you like, i don't know, post some arguments to support your assertions? 

 

Because this stinks to me more like "ive red a book of WW2 German ace and i want to fly just like him and make that style of flying the only kosher one". 

 

And if we classify the issue of certain team going for stats instead of objectives, then there is plenty of arguments and evidence that this is happening at least to SOME extent. Where the real discussion needs to take place is if this is actually contributing to the overall suck of the axis ground game or is merely inconsequential phenomena that can be ignored. 

I started my TAW in axis. And i came across an attitude of "if it flies under 2-3 km, i am not touching it". Whenever i went in low, to save 110''s behind, i found myself quickly surrounded by 3-4 reds while there is happy flight of German contrails over the objective. After a while, it got old and i just started to play reds. 

 

Allied attitude in TAW is this: We will fight on the beaches, we will fight in space, we will fight over our tanks or theirs, we shall never surrender. Whatever the cost. 

 

 

While Axis attitude is: if its under 2km, i don't care even if it bombed Berlin. 

Edited by CptSiddy
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=LG=Kathon,

 

good news... But... How can we share it with WM 2018? Please do not start in the next 2 weeks :)

 

Ole Ole Ole :)

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

 

 

Soooo, can you like, i don't know, post some arguments to support your assertions? 

 

Because this stinks to me more like "ive red a book of WW2 German ace and i want to fly just like him and make that style of flying the only kosher one". 

 

And if we classify the issue of certain team going for stats instead of objectives, then there is plenty of arguments and evidence that this is happening at least to SOME extent. Where the real discussion needs to take place is if this is actually contributing to the overall suck of the axis ground game or is merely inconsequential phenomena that can be ignored.

 

When talking about the ground objectives you have 2 issues. Axis ground attackers survivability and ability to deal with tanks is generally worse than its counterparts and 109s, in a tactical sense, are being inferior as well.

Let me explain why i think that the Bf 109 is as much of an issue when talking about ground attacking (not level bombing) as the the inferior ground attacking abilities in itself. Because you seem to really like real life examples and you quoted Churchill, lets start with the Battle of Britain. This battle of attrition (which most TAW maps boil down to but that's beside the point) was partly lost because 109s were forced to give close escort to bombers, denying them the more efficient "free hunt". This took away a lot of advantages of the 109 which didn't go too well neither for the 109 Pilot nor for the overall success.

This applies in a great deal to the situation we have at hand as well. It is always a very difficult balancing act for 109s to do low level escorts. Fly too high and you won't be able to act in time to protect your attackers. Fly too low and you will lose a lot of your advantages which in the end doesn't help your attackers either. The 109 is a bad fit for low level escort duties as much as VVS aircrafts are a bad fit for high level escort duties. 

Which makes the 109 suffer to an equal extent is in my opinion that it is more difficult to fly. Not because you need more "skill" or because it is the worse airplane (quite the contrary) but because it requires a completely different mindset opposed to the general perception of air combat. When you take a look at popular media, you won't find a single example of how a 109 is supposed to be flown. If you fly a 109 and try to play like you see in the movies you are going to have a much much harder time than when sitting in most VVS aircrafts. VVS aircrafts have a much more direct access way to combat.

Another issue in this discussion is that people focus too much on 1v1 situations and don't talk about the tactical aspect at all. In sterile lab 1v1 conditions the Bf 109 is superior to nearly all VVS aircrafts. Yet it can struggle in combat because it rarely comes to this. A good example of this is one of the most common deaths of 109s. After they attacked an enemy they try to do a vertical loop to keep their energy up just to become easy prey for another VVS with more/equal energy. There are many factors in play when it comes to combat. Should the 109 still do better than VVS aircrafts? absolutely. Its just an aircraft that apparently is hard to master and has very little room for mistakes (unlike popular vvs aircrafts). I also think many players would consider flying it the way it is meant to be as rather boring, after all there is a reason why it isn't shown in popular media (instead we get this). If you could replace all players on both sides with the top 10, you will surely get different results in the end but this is not the case. Not the top 10 win or lose maps but the vast majority and the vast majority sucks at flying 109s. 

 

I still don't understand why people try to argue that there are simply different players on Axis side. Of course you have stats focused players (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion) but that goes for both sides. 

I don't know where this "kamikaze" dogma came from that you have to die to win the map either. Axis won't win when they start lawn mowing to protect their ground attackers.

 

 

Edited by Operation_Ivy
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

When talking about the ground objectives you have 2 issues. Axis ground attackers survivability and ability to deal with tanks is generally worse than its counterparts [...]

 

I still don't understand why people try to argue that there are simply different players on Axis side. Of course you have stats focused players (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion) but that goes for both sides. 

I don't know where this "kamikaze" dogma came from that you have to die to win the map either. Axis won't win when they start lawn mowing to protect their ground attackers.

 

 

Axis ground attackers aren't necessarily worse than their counterparts. While they are more vulnerable to Flak fire, they can carry quite an amazing bombload in comparison. At the same time, both Stukas and 110s may be slow compared to a fighter but very maneuverable, and the Ju88 can attain quite high speeds. As you already know all about, it's simply a trade-off (which was somehow spoilt by 61Ks 2 TAW campaigns ago, but that's another matter that seems solved by now). I think we can agree on that.

 

Regarding the Hartmann issue, people argue that point because they all noticed it, and it's true for both sides, we can agree on that as well... On what you probably haven't thought of, is the percentual amount of pilots flying this way. It's much higher on the LW side. I say this fully convinced, I flew both sides each in the last 2 campaigns. Who knows, maybe changing the points given to stats and modifying the page slightly might help this? Make attacking ground objects "more worthwhile" in the eyes of statpadders? Your opinion is also welcome on that, because the pilots' inherent motivation remains speculative.

 

I aks you to take a look at your last sentence, which is a (probably unintentional) strawman. We didn't say that "you had to die to win the map" or to take up a "kamikaze" dogma. We said "take more risks", that is what we said. What is actually true, is that Axis have done fairly better tactically when the fighters flew lower to protect the ground attackers - in groups. We tested this the last two campaigns on a few occasions. Of course, that does not mean to fly right on the deck - that would be idiotic. But flying 1km above your attackers makes a whole lot of difference, especially in the quickly locking 109. It just takes way too much time to get down from too high altitude, and lets not forget quite a few pilots have spotting issues from very high towards the deck (I exclude myself there, but I'm not on a very common setup). Hence, if the StuKas and ZGs fly at 2km, it means to fly at 3km. For example, seeing Jagdgeschwader 4 in action, the Axis managed to capture several airfields within just a few hours each time they did this, and pushed the front considerably. It happened in bursts. They were unargueably the most effective Axis squadron in the last TAW campaign - while many Aussies played that vital part for the VVS at the other side of the day.

 

 

Flying solely at +5km is CloD / WT Grmlz-esque; which were different scenarios, one over the Channel, the other game purely about air superiority. We'll be saying good-bye to that, dedicatedly, in the next campaign. Even Riksen, who has proven repeatedly during the last campaigns, that he is the best flying 109 ace in this game.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Axis ground attackers aren't necessarily worse than their counterparts. While they are more vulnerable to Flak fire, they can carry quite an amazing bombload in comparison. At the same time, both Stukas and 110s may be slow compared to a fighter but very maneuverable, and the Ju88 can attain quite high speeds. As you already know all about, it's simply a trade-off (which was somehow spoilt by 61Ks 2 TAW campaigns ago, but that's another matter that seems solved by now). I think we can agree on that.

 

Yes they have the bomb load advantage which is why airfield level bombing is their advantage. However they simply can't compete with the IL2s tank busting abilities. While its true that 110s and Stukas can be quite maneuverable its not anything to write home about because it won't safe you. Sure there are players who do some shenanigans with it but always without bombs. 

 

54 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Regarding the Hartmann issue, people argue that point because they all noticed it, and it's true for both sides, we can agree on that as well... On what you probably haven't thought of, is the percentual amount of pilots flying this way. It's much higher on the LW side. I say this fully convinced, I flew both sides each in the last 2 campaigns. Who knows, maybe changing the points given to stats and modifying the page slightly might help this? Make attacking ground objects "more worthwhile" in the eyes of statpadders? Your opinion is also welcome on that, because the pilots' inherent motivation remains speculative.

 

I am not disputing the fact that there are quite a few of "those" players around on axis side. I am simply explaining the reasoning behind it and that's not due to them not wanting to win but that they feel pushed into that situation because they can't help it any other way. And on a sidenote: Statpadding is something completely different.

 

As for me? It might be harsh to say but i learned the lesson the hard way to never trust a "random". I help where i can and we (hydra) always work towards winning the map but i am not going to kill all my energy to help a 109 with a yak on his 6 who is turning like a mad man for example. Some people are simply beyond help. All of the mentioned suggestions towards the stats page won't change anything. In fact in some cases it would make the situation even worse.

Edited by Operation_Ivy
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

Yes they have the bomb load advantage which is why airfield level bombing is their advantage. However they simply can't compete with the IL2s tank busting abilities. While its true that 110s and Stukas can be quite maneuverable its not anything to write home about because it won't safe you. Sure there are players who do some shenanigans with it but always without bombs. 

 

 

That is not true.  We 7th Guards focused on tank-killing this past campaign and were quite far ahead of everybody else for most of it.  Then, the VVS got the A-20 and Kondor and HvB pulled neck and neck and then passed us over the course of one map.  We ended up pulling ahead again, but the evidence is clear.  With the static, sitting duck convoys of TAW the truly most effective tank-killing tactic is to fly down the length of the convoy from the rear(the guns have to turn to shoot at you)  and carpet bomb it.  That is a fact, no two ways about it.  You can do that just as well in the Ju-88 and well enough in the 110.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

Yes they have the bomb load advantage which is why airfield level bombing is their advantage. However they simply can't compete with the IL2s tank busting abilities. While its true that 110s and Stukas can be quite maneuverable its not anything to write home about because it won't safe you. Sure there are players who do some shenanigans with it but always without bombs. 

 

 

I am not disputing the fact that there are quite a few of "those" players around on axis side. I am simply explaining the reasoning behind it and that's not due to them not wanting to win but that they feel pushed into that situation because they can't help it any other way. And on a sidenote: Statpadding is something completely different.

 

As for me? It might be harsh to say but i learned the lesson the hard way to never trust a "random". I help where i can and we (hydra) always work towards winning the map but i am not going to kill all my energy to help a 109 with a yak on his 6 who is turning like a mad man for example. Some people are simply beyond help. All of the mentioned suggestions towards the stats page won't change anything. In fact in some cases it would make the situation even worse.

 

 

At the end of the day, watching and participating in this discussion has given me one primary impression, and that is that if we fly Axis this next campaign we will have nowhere near the cover we get on VVS, and they fighter guys will be happy with their justifications.  C'est la guerre, but I can't say I particularly care to fill that role. 

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas
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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

That is not true.  We 7th Guards focused on tank-killing this past campaign and were quite far ahead of everybody else for most of it.  Then, the VVS got the A-20 and Kondor and HvB pulled neck and neck and then passed us over the course of one map.  We ended up pulling ahead again, but the evidence is clear.  With the static, sitting duck convoys of TAW the truly most effective tank-killing tactic is to fly down the length of the convoy from the rear(the guns have to turn to shoot at you)  and carpet bomb it.  That is a fact, no two ways about it.  You can do that just as well in the Ju-88 and well enough in the 110.

 

While this might be true, Top 5 tank killers and tank killer squadrons are nearly always 100% VVS and thats not simply due to VVS players are better / covering their attackers. Also german tanks are way easier to destroy than russians..

 

30 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

At the end of the day, watching and participating in this discussion has given me one primary impression, and that is that if we fly Axis this next campaign we will have nowhere near the cover we get on VVS, and they fighter guys will be happy with their justifications.  C'est la guerre, but I can't say I particularly care to fill that role. 

 

You seem to completely miss my point?

 

I never disputed this issue on axis side. I simply give a more sophisticated explanation than "axis pilots just don't want to win, they do everything wrong"

Edited by Operation_Ivy

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2 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Even Riksen, who has proven repeatedly during the last campaigns, that he is the best flying 109 ace in this game.

 

That's a pretty bold statement, there are so many Pilots who leave Riksen in the dust, at a 1vs1 109 fight. 

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I've always felt that the Germans need communication more than the russians in TAW (both, of course, benefit from comms)

For example,

1) lets assume a hypothetical situation 40vs40, with noone on any comms whatsoever. Then, in my opinion, the vvs has the advantage*  (ground war wise, but also less planes and pilots losses - see most missions of last campaign).

2) if it were 20 squads of 2 pilots against 20 squads of 2 pilots, with the squads typing in-game some info to each other, then I wouldn't really know who has the advantage

3) Gradually, as the level of communication (and thus organization) increases, the LW gets more advantages compared to VVS

4) if somehow there were 40 germans simultaneous on same comms* against 40 russians themselves on same comms*, the Gerries would wipe the floor

 

 

*"same comms" would be something like air marshall : I think that when/if Air Marshall ever comes (and gets included in TAW) and somehow people listen to the Marshallthen the germans will be able to consistently mount massive bomber raids, say 10*ju88 + 10 escort and wipe 2 airfields per mission.



 

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28 minutes ago, Jizzo said:

That's a pretty bold statement, there are so many Pilots who leave Riksen in the dust, at a 1vs1 109 fight.

 

Last time I checked aces were determined by kill count and not by 1 on 1fooling around

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1 hour ago, Jizzo said:

 

That's a pretty bold statement, there are so many Pilots who leave Riksen in the dust, at a 1vs1 109 fight. 

 

 

Like schwarze said, i think aces are proven by kill count, not only does he have the highest kill count every season of TAW, but it's rare he ever gets shot down himself. Like last campaign, He only got shot down by another aircraft once; and he never died.

 

Sure, he might not be good in a twist and turning dogfight, but that's not how you play with the 109, he uses the strengths of the 109 for his favor, and only engages when an opportunity allows it.

 

So i i agree with fenris, that he is the best flying 109 ace. He plays to the strength and weaknesses of the 109, not wasting time in a 1v1

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I have to say that for someone who only just recently bought the game and was kind of looking forward, towards his first serious blue campaign on TAW, this whole argument seems... discouraging to say the least! I'll spare you from my personal opinion as a crappy Stuka pilot, but let's just say this was not what I was expecting! 

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Don't worry Furt.

 

Where there is debate, there is life, and there is progress.

 

If there was none, that might be discouraging. Anyway, SCG's leadership has decided to switch strategies for this campaign and go ahead to fly attackers, escorts, and tightly knit to the strategical victory. If others want to remain at 6km, they are free to do so. After some initial testing, we are convinced that this makes the simulation much more interesting (and fun) as well. Check your PM! 😃

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4 hours ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

Like schwarze said, i think aces are proven by kill count, not only does he have the highest kill count every season of TAW, but it's rare he ever gets shot down himself. Like last campaign, He only got shot down by another aircraft once; and he never died.

 

Sure, he might not be good in a twist and turning dogfight, but that's not how you play with the 109, he uses the strengths of the 109 for his favor, and only engages when an opportunity allows it.

 

So i i agree with fenris, that he is the best flying 109 ace. He plays to the strength and weaknesses of the 109, not wasting time in a 1v1

Riksen had the highest streak, not the highest kill count and he was shot down more than once, hence the 12 lost aircraft i'd assume. ;)

 

Don't get me wrong here man, Riksen is a damn good pilot, no one can argue about that, nor will i!

 

It just sounded a bit overkill, and i was only refering to piloting skills in a 109 vs 109 duel, not refering to the flying a 109 to its strength and all that ladida boombiddy byebye...

 

Which really isn't that hard anyways, right!?

 

PS: If Riksen would fly to his full potential and not care about the streak stuff too much, i believe he would easily make 1st place and contribute much more to each campaign, but that is just my thought, no offense intended.

 

Cheers

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Jizzo said:

 

That's a pretty bold statement, there are so many Pilots who leave Riksen in the dust, at a 1vs1 109 fight. 

 

Agreed. Just to be clear, I'm not here to compete with anyone .... just to have fun. I'm afraid I have to step away from this discussion as I'm not claiming to be better than anyone nor would wish to be. I appreciate the kind words nonetheless. Like I said, I'm here just to have fun and enjoy flying as a group and friends. I'm not nearly as good as some other guys here individually but that is not what the game is about for me anyways. Well enough of that, let's change topics and focus on TAW please.

Edited by SCG_Riksen
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He's going to fly as a grunt this time. We will all be more effective to the campaign due to this, because that's the approach we decided on.

 

Still, best pilot in the air superiority role with one life, and short play time even. How many campaigns now consecutively - 3 ? BTW, most effective squad on axis side was neither Hydra nor us at SCG. It was JG4. They capped so many airfields and flew so many defenses at the right point at the right time like no other, but they're not in the top 5. That's the point. Stat points may need some adjustments to reflect such things. To incite the average Joe to work harder on the campaign goals. Surely you can agree to at least this, it looks like you value effectiveness on campaign the most.

 

Just saying. You don't need to agree to this, these are merely observations. Make what you will of it... ;)

 

See you west of Moscow soon! o7

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, SCG_DR1FT3R said:

 

 

Like schwarze said, i think aces are proven by kill count, not only does he have the highest kill count every season of TAW, but it's rare he ever gets shot down himself. Like last campaign, He only got shot down by another aircraft once; and he never died.

 

Sure, he might not be good in a twist and turning dogfight, but that's not how you play with the 109, he uses the strengths of the 109 for his favor, and only engages when an opportunity allows it.

 

So i i agree with fenris, that he is the best flying 109 ace. He plays to the strength and weaknesses of the 109, not wasting time in a 1v1

 

Riksen is an ace, hats off. One of the best. No doubts.

Smart, skilled, cold blooded. 

 

About the statement best flying 109 ace...

Here watch the video kid and learn. 

 

Good streak = Good team & wingman cooperating on TS + Flying skills + Experience + shooting skills + patience 

 

I know that most of the englih forum users dont have balls and skills to fly 1vs1 and cant accept that 1vs1 is an art and shows real virtual pilot value but its their "gender" problem.

 

I speak this as a virtual pilot, pilot, military pilot & instructor.

As a guy who spent 12 years in IL2 community flying in online wars, campaigns, tournaments, events, online servers.

 

Even best russian players didnt had chance against Lynx in 109 G2, plane who demands something more than "stick to the d1$k & follow the lift vector + push flaps button"

 

:) Cheers & enjoy the vid !
 

 

 

Edited by =LG/Exp=RoccoSiffredi

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

When talking about the ground objectives you have 2 issues. Axis ground attackers survivability and ability to deal with tanks is generally worse than its counterparts and 109s, in a tactical sense, are being inferior as well.

 

I still don't understand why people try to argue that there are simply different players on Axis side.

 

 

 

 

1st point, yes if you go in with a 109 by yourself you are going to die. Same goes for bombing in a P40. Do it alone and the flak will kill you. As a fictional Luftwaffe pilot myself I fly both sides. I very rarely bomb in a 109. There are other aircraft for that. I will however, fight on the deck to cover bombers like a Ju88. It can be done successfully.

 

Currently as Blue players ARE DIFFERENT I get to paste unescorted low Ju88's and Stukas all map long in TAW. Another trend I see is that Blue pilots tend to be spread across a much wider set of communications programs and channels. This is in BoX and Cliffs. It is a distinct trend I have witnessed during my 3000 hours of play between the two games. Admittedly it is much more Cliffs time than BoX by a great deal. Blue pilots tend to separate across a much broader comms set and team play suffers.

 

Red pilots tend to seek each other out and group into comms more often. The pub channels for Wings indicate this to be true not just in TAW. Same went for RED side in ATAG. Red channel is full while the blue channel sits just about empty even though the server is rammed to the tits with players. Not every RED squadron or player is like this but enough come together regularly to be really dangerous. To be blunt, blue squadrons are getting beat by randoms in a pub channel.

 

We also see more refusal on blue side to fly anything else but blue. This is opposite to Cliffs where it's hard to get butts out of Spitfires. This is how I came to fly blue. In Cliffs like BoX I like to fly short side. In order to do that I learnt how to fly 109s.  Guys flat out refuse to fly 109s and ONLY fly Spits and Hurris. In BoX we find the opposite problem.

 

I am in 7th Staffel in ACG. I love my 109s but I love a balanced campaign more. If more blue had this attitude perhaps they wouldn't get their ass handed to them almost every campaign. Stop blaming your tools. It's the sign of a shitty tradesman at work, what does it say here? It's not the tool, it's you.

 

Elanski kicks ass in a P40, just sayin.

On 6/17/2018 at 12:37 AM, LLv44_Mprhead said:

 

What I meant by "turning like crazy" being often the problem was that if you are in german fighter in disadvantage and you try to get out of harms way by turning as tight as you can, you make it quite hard for your buddy higher up to help you out. Ofc being on comms helps a lot in this.

 

 

Don't turn like crazy for longer than one kick pull for a shot. When the slats are out you bleed too much speed.

 

Turning like crazy should only be used if you don't care about getting shot down or you have them up your butt and you want to bleed speed for an overshoot. If you are turn and burning in a 109 for any length of time you are more often than not going to die.  I do this all the time in a 109 as I can't help myself as an ex spit pilot and love the deck fight...... It's just too fun. It is a bad idea though.

 

Continuous dives with a shallow climb out for a reset is better. A lot of 109s hang themselves and a lot of us wait for it. My 2c anyway. We all have our own styles.

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper
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Posted (edited)

 

32 minutes ago, =LG/Exp=RoccoSiffredi said:

[...]

!
 

 

Thanks for the interesting video. No doubt he is good as well.

 

On a note, just because someone has YT videos doesn't mean he's amazing or knows everything. Yet, they accumulate large fanbases who really believe just that. It's fine though, there is a lot of entertaining footage on YT. My favourite videomaker is Mr.X, who's an amazing gunner, and yet I outfought him on TAW last campaign over Kuban. He still managed to run and turn it into a draw, and it was one of the most amazing duels I had. Even more so afterwards when I saw the damage indications in the sortie feed. My biggest respect to the guy. Watching footage is very selective, you can pull out some amazing footage of even a bad day. Anyway, as Riksen said - it is most important to enjoy the time ;)

 

And that's what we all should be doing now. TAW is around the corner and people are hardly holding their already wild horses. A few friendly shots in the forums keep the tension alive. All good😁 

 

TAW very soon!

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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