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=LG=Kathon

Tactical Air War

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We would like to ask you for help regarding the new plane set.  It’s always trade-off between historical aspects, script limitations and a balance for the game play. If you would like to present your own idea then don’t hesitate and share your plane set with us. We may use it in the next campaigns. If you are interested then please read text below because we plan the change some rules in the plane set.

 

First of all we plan to introduce a new feature reducing number of available fighters types in the hangars. So during the registration a pilot will select one line of plane set (it won’t be able to change it later). Some aircraft may belong to many lines and some may belong exclusively only to one line.

 

Here are some general examples:

Axis Line A – Bf 109 only

Axis Line B – Fw 190 and some Bf 109

Allied Line A – Soviets planes only (Lagg-3 ,La-5, Yaks, …)

Allied Line B - Leased line planes mainly

Some lines may have better fighter for the first maps and other line may have better fighters on the latest maps. There are so many variants so we ask you for help.

There aren’t many attackers and bombers types so one common line for them is ok.

 

Here are general rules for a fighter line:

  • Two (max three) types of planes on each map
  • Total maximum number of planes on each map no greater than 4 (sum of MAX_QTY)
  • Some better types of planes have quantity=0 on each map (combat missions are needed to increase this number)
  • One type of “basic plane +1” (one plane of this type is added to the hangar after mission if a pilot has 0 of them)

It’s possible to lock some weapons (big bombs, 23mm, gun pods etc.) on all or front-line airfields on some maps. It’s also possible to lock some weapons on random airfields depending on the depot destruction (as it's now)

 

There are 8 maps:

1 -3  Moscow

4-5  Stalingrad

6  Kuban

7  Stalingrad

8  Kuban

 

 

We count on your creativity!!

:salute:

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Posted (edited)

=LG=Kathon

  • Total maximum number of planes on each map no greater than 4 (sum of MAX_QTY)

Is very bad idea. You will not find any person on the server just after 2 days. Lets check my stat for the last round:

 

Aircrafts lost 106

 

Ok, for sure I can do it quite better..but not 3 times !

 

Maybe I am wrong and you mentioned 4x individual planes? For example, I cannot use more than 4x109e7 for the first map. Please clarify.

 

 

Edited by Norz

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Personally I don't feel the need to do changes on things that are not broken. There is noting wrong with the current planes set IMHO apart form the current 25 min for a combat mission that prevent people to spawn the last half hour or so. Perhaps re installing 15 min for CM or extending the missions to 3 hours.   

 

 

AND Please, PLEase remove the cold engine  

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so would this mean if I were to choose axis fighter line A for example, that I could only fly 109's for all 8 maps ? I'd never be able to fly ju87, ju88 or anything else ?

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40 minutes ago, =FEW=Herne said:

so would this mean if I were to choose axis fighter line A for example, that I could only fly 109's for all 8 maps ? I'd never be able to fly ju87, ju88 or anything else ?

This is my question as well. I really enjoyed running a ton of transport mission in the later maps even though I mostly fly fighters. I could understand less attacker/bombers/transports if you're a fighter guy, but it'd be better to still have a few.

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This is quite an interesting idea Kathon. Well worth some of my thoughts. 

 

I can see this go both ways though.

On one side it does make the player more specialized and forces players to really focus on one roll. It will force bomber or ground attack squads to work together well with fighter squads. This can lead to some great team play and focus on objectives. 

 

On the other side, this removes the ability for varied gameplay for a single player. I know for a fact that we (Hydra) mostly fly fighters, but in order to not get bored over time, we put in the occasional bomber or ground attack mission. This variety of gameplay is what keeps us playing throughout a single campaign. If we only had to fly fighters. Most of us would get bored and stop playing after a few maps. I am sure we are not the only squad that this will happen to. 

 

Specializing roles per player could be a nice touch. However, it should still leave room for some variation in gameplay for a single player. If the system locks the player to a single type of gameplay, for instance, the Bf-109 line, then player numbers will dwindle and the gameplay will become stale. 

 

2 notes on the "rules" suggested by Kathon:

  • Two (max three) types of planes on each map is going to scare players off.
  • Total maximum number of planes on each map no greater than 4 (sum of MAX_QTY) is not going to work. Mainly the players that loose quite a few planes during a map will be out of planes in no time and could very well leave the campaign altogether.

Changes to the "rules" that I believe are needed to make this work:

  • Players must be able to choose the exact aircraft to unlock. Not just a system of "X type of plane first and we won't tell you which one". The player must be able to directly select the plane he/she wants to unlock next. Even if it is not the type of plane of his/her speciality.
  • A fighter line always starts with 2 fighters that can be used directly at the start of a map.
  • A ground attack line always starts with 3 ground attackers (and for the Germans: at least 1 paratrooper plane).
  • A bomber line always starts with 3 bombers (and for the Germans: at least 1paratrooper plane with +1)
  • Each specialized lineup must still have access to at least one plane of each type (fighter, ground attacker, bomber, transport) but must be unlocked via CM.
  • Non-specialized lines must exist. These are lines that are a bit of everything but not really excellent at anything. 
  • A non-specialized line always starts with 3 planes. One of each type (not including the Ju 52 paratrooper)
  • The current system of already unlocked planes are passed on to the next map must remain.
  • At least 2 of the aircraft that are started with cannot be premium planes.
  • Each line must have at least 2 transport planes at the start of a map. The transport planes are: Ju 88A-4, Ju 52/3m, and He 111H-6 for the germans and the Pe-2 Series 35 and Pe-2 Series 87 for the soviets.)
  • Fighter specialized players get more XP for destroying planes then ground attackers and bombers specialized players
  • Ground attack and bomber specialized players get more XP for destroying ground targets then fighter specialized players.
  • Non-specialized roles are between the fighter specialized roles and ground attack/bomber specialized roles in terms of XP.
  • Each Specialized roll should have a CM advantage that only applies to that specific role.
    • Only bomber specialization should have the following system: "target(s) destroyed (in a bomber) + x min. flight time = 1+ x/17 CM" (max. 4CM) and "target destroyed + ditched (outside of airfield) or bailed out = 1CM"
    • Only Ground attack specialization should have the following system: "x ground targets destroyed (in ground attacker) + Airfield return = x/n + 1 CM" (n is yet to be determined) (max. 4CM) and "x ground targets destroyed + ditched (outside of airfield) or bailed out = 1 CM"
    • Only fighter specialization should have the following system: "x planes killed (in fighter) + Airfield return = x + 1 CM" (max 3 CM) and "x planes killed + ditched (outside of airfield) or bailed out = 1 CM"
    • Otherwise, standard 1 CM per flight should count. (and yes, non-specialized roles are taking a huge disadvantage here)

If a system like this is introduced, then I would like to see lineups for Bf 109 aircraft like this:

  1. Bf 109E-7 (2/3 +1), Bf 110E-2 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (0/1), He 111H-6 transport (2/2 +1)
  2. Bf 109E-7 (2/2 +1), Bf 109F-2 (0/1), Bf 110E-2 (0/1), He 111H-6 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (0/1), He 111H-6 transport (2/2 +1)
  3. Bf 109F-2 (2/2 +1), Bf 109F-4 (0/1), Bf 110E-2 (0/1), He 111H-6 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (0/1), He 111H-6 transport (2/2 +1)
  4. Bf 109F-2 (1/2), Bf 109F-4 (1/2+1), Bf 110E-2 (0/1), He 111H-6 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (0/1), He 111H-6 transport (2/2 +1)
  5. Bf 109F-4 (2/2 +1), Bf 109G-2 (0/1), Bf 110E-2 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (2/2 +1)
  6. Bf 109G-2 (2/2 +1), Bf 109G-4 (0/1), Bf 110G-2 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (2/2 +1)
  7. Bf 109G-4 (2/3 +1), Bf 110G-6 (0/1), Bf 110G-2 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (2/2 +1)
  8. Bf 109G-4 (1/2 +1), Bf 109G-6 (1/1), Bf 110G-2 (0/1), He 111H-16 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (2/2 +1)

And for German ground attackers like this:

  1. Ju 87D-3 (2/3 +1), Bf 110E-2 (1/1), He 111H-6 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (1/1),  Bf 109E-7 (0/1), He 111H-6 transport (1/2 +1)
  2. Ju 87D-3 (2/2 +1), Bf 110E-2 (1/2), He 111H-6 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (1/1),  Bf 109E-7 (0/1), He 111H-6 transport (1/2 +1)
  3. Bf 110E-2 (2/2 +1), Ju 87D-3 (1/2), Ju 88A-4 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (1/1),  Bf 109F-2 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (1/2 +1)
  4. Bf 110E-2 (2/2 +1), Ju 87D-3 (1/2), Fw 190A-3 Jabo only (0/1), Ju 88A-4 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (1/1),  Fw 190A-3 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (1/2 +1)
  5. Bf 110G-2 (1/2 +1), Ju 87D-3 (1/2), Fw 190A-3 Jabo only (1/2), Ju 88A-4 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (1/1),  Fw 190A-3 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (1/2 +1)
  6. Bf 110G-2 (2/2 +1), Ju 87D-3 (1/2), Fw 190A-5 U-17 only (0/1), He 111H-16 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (1/1),  Fw 190A-3 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (1/2 +1)
  7. Bf 110G-2 (2/2 +1), Fw 190A-5 U-17 only (1/1), He 111H-16 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (1/1),  Fw 190A-5 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (1/2 +1)
  8. Bf 110G-2 (2/2 +1), Fw 190A-5 U-17 only (1/2), He 111H-16 (0/1), Ju 52/3m (1/1),  Fw 190A-5 (0/1), Ju 88A-4 transport (1/2 +1)

Example of a Russian non-speicalized line:

  1. I-16 Type 24 (1/2 +1), IL-2 AM-38 (1941) (1/2),  Pe-2 Series 35 (1/1), Pe-2 Series 35 transport (2/2 +1)
  2. I-16 Type 24 (1/1), P-40E-1 (0/1), IL-2 AM-38 (1941) (1/2 +1),  Pe-2 Series 35 (1/2), Pe-2 Series 35 transport (2/2 +1)
  3. Lagg-3 series 29 (1/2 +1), IL-2 AM-38 (1941) (1/2), IL-2 AM-38 (1942) (0/1),  Pe-2 Series 35 (1/2), Pe-2 Series 35 transport (2/2 +1)
  4. Lagg-3 series 29 (1/1), Yak-1 Series 69 (0/1), IL-2 AM-38 (1941) (1/1 +1), Pe-2 Series 35 (1/2), Pe-2 Series 35 transport (2/2 +1)
  5. Yak-1 Series 69 (1/2 +1), IL-2 AM-38 (1942) (1/2), Pe-2 Series 35 (1/1), Pe-2 Series 87 (0/1), Pe-2 Series 35 transport (2/2 +1)
  6. Yak-1 Series 69 (1/2), Spitfire Mk.Vb (0/1), IL-2 AM-38 (1942) (1/2), Pe-2 Series 87 (1/2 +1), Pe-2 Series 35 transport (2/2 +1)
  7. Yak-7b Series 69 (1/2 +1), IL-2 AM-38 (1942) (1/2), IL-2 AM-38F (1943) (0/1), Pe-2 Series 87 (1/2), Pe-2 Series 87 transport (2/2 +1)
  8. Yak-7b Series 69 (1/2), La-5F Series 8 (0/1), IL-2 AM-38F (1943) (1/2 +1), Pe-2 Series 87 (1/2), Pe-2 Series 87 transport (2/2 +1)

Specialized lineups like the first 2 focus on one specific role and do so with the "newest" of planes. However, this does not force the player to only play a single type of plane.

A nonspecialized line like the 3rd example gives the player the freedom to play whatever he/she likes while always being a step behind of the specialized roles. I did this to give players more the incentive to focus on the specialized roles while making room for the player that really likes to play a bit of everything. 

 

I am sure you guys can come up with some more idea's. 

 

BlackHellHound1

 

:salute:

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2 hours ago, Norz said:

=LG=Kathon

  • Total maximum number of planes on each map no greater than 4 (sum of MAX_QTY)

Is very bad idea. You will not find any person on the server just after 2 days. Lets check my stat for the last round:

 

Aircrafts lost 106

 

Ok, for sure I can do it quite better..but not 3 times !

 

Maybe I am wrong and you mentioned 4x individual planes? For example, I cannot use more than 4x109e7 for the first map. Please clarify.

 

 

Map#1 from the ended campaign for example: max 3x I-16 and 1x P40 so total fighters is 4.

 

2 hours ago, ATAG_dB said:

Personally I don't feel the need to do changes on things that are not broken. There is noting wrong with the current planes set IMHO apart form the current 25 min for a combat mission that prevent people to spawn the last half hour or so. Perhaps re installing 15 min for CM or extending the missions to 3 hours.   

 

 

AND Please, PLEase remove the cold engine  

Sometimes is good to try a new things. We can always switch to the previous setup. Cold engine will be turn off.

 

1 hour ago, =FEW=Herne said:

so would this mean if I were to choose axis fighter line A for example, that I could only fly 109's for all 8 maps ? I'd never be able to fly ju87, ju88 or anything else ?

Line is for fighters so you would have only 109's from fighters and rest of the attackers and bombers as before.

 

In general we only split fighters into two lines.

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6 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

Cold engine will be turn off.

 

Thanks Kathon

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, =LG=Kathon said:

Map#1 from the ended campaign for example: max 3x I-16 and 1x P40 so total fighters is 4.

 

Oh... Really bad idea. I see no reason to limit it at all. In this way the server will lost about 70% players just in 2..3 days. Better to limit some unlocks that can be used.

 

For example, you can use unlimited unlocks for first 4x fighters... but after that only started edition: no bombs, with head shield only, without navi compass  and so on.

 

And for sure red players will suffer for that rule, because USUALLY the AXIS player decides to attack or not but not the ALLIED player.

 

P.S: Maybe these start edition planes should be located not at the front side fields. The players that lost first 4x planes should fly extra 20..30 km.

 

P.S.2: Maybe the number of the CM should be doubled to get a plane after the player lost first 4.... 

 

 

Edited by Norz
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Posted (edited)

IMHO all i feel could use a change is to make the lineups more historical.

 

And this is totally off topic but people were wondering why the Luftwaffe have been loosing so many campaigns. I feel its quite simple to turn around;

 

The Luftwaffe has some of the best level bombers in this sim. If we ( The Luftwaffe ) use more level bombers, and flying together; we can just bomb the hell out of enemy airfields and render them useless. And we just don't have the best Ground attack aircraft compared to the Russian IL2's.  When we compare its capabilities compared to a Ju87, its just amusing. So, Just use our level bombers to the best of our capabilities. And it should be quite easy

Edited by 1./JG26_DR1FT3R
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I’d like to make a few suggestions in response to Kathon’s request for input concerning the TAW plane set, and these suggestions are based on historical reality. I know it is a difficult line to walk between historical accuracy and play balance, and many people will disagree with some of my suggestions for play balance reasons, but here’s my take.

#1. I don’t want to rehash everything I put out in a video a year ago about the game’s Vya-23 cannon being way more lethal against Axis tanks than it ever was historically, It is what it is, probably never going to change, but I have something to say about its availability:

There’s a detailed rundown of the VYa-23 developmental timeline as concerns the IL-2 in Gordon’s book listed below, and to make a long story short, there were only a handful of VYa-23-equipped IL-2s delivered in 1941, likely 20 or less aircraft based on the available production data, due to assembly line delays and the eastward evacuation of the three main factories producing the IL-2. And in February 1942 the main factory at Kovrov producing the VYa-23 had some serious production delays of its own, which caused the factories to revert to arming the IL-2s with the 20mm ShvaK cannon. Bottom line – the VYa-23 was not the prevalent armament of the Il-2 until the summer of 1942, and historically speaking, we shouldn’t even be seeing this cannon in large numbers until map 4 or 5, and I know what you’re thinking and you’re right – to be fair – again speaking strictly historically……..

#2. ………. the Ju 87 armed with the 37mm cannons shouldn’t be showing up until map 7 (First operational sorties – 3/1943).  

#3. 37mm cannons on the IL-2: Although the Soviet State Defense Committee ordered a test batch of Sh-37 cannon- armed IL-2s be produced in November 1941, a combination of factory evacuations and production delays prevented this aircraft from seeing service until late December 42 and January 43 (Map 6 or 7), when a test batch of nine aircraft were deployed to the Stalingrad area (688 ShAP). The low position of the guns to accommodate the high-capacity ammunition boxes caused the aircraft to pitch downward when the cannons were fired. The heavy recoil and poor synchronization of the cannons’ firing mechanism caused the aircraft to veer off the sight line, making accuracy extremely problematic. The pilots who flew it hated it, and it was never put into large scale production.

And as for the NS-37-armed IL2,  a “small batch” underwent service trials at Kursk (208 ShAP) (Map 8), and it had exactly the same problems that the Sh-37 armed IL2s had, was once again very unpopular with the pilots, and never was mass produced.

And yet, in IL-2, we have a perfectly functioning digital version with none of these issues, probably because nobody would want to fly it if it performed like the actual aircraft. Personally, I don’t think either should be in TAW at all.

#4. The BK-37-armed Bf 110G-2 R/1 was only produced in small numbers as a test batch and was not operationally successful due to lateral stability issues caused by the attached gondola BK-37, which affected accuracy much like the issues with the Sh/NS-37 cannons on the Il-2. And yet again, the game version performs flawlessly, and again, for that reason, I don’t think it should be included in the server.

In TAW each side is required to kill large numbers of tanks; there are no large-scale armor vs. armor encounters. In reality, aircraft on both sides accounted for a very small % of overall tank kills. It was quickly realized by the Luftwaffe Command that the Ju 87 and Hs 129 should be deployed to attack Soviet tank incursions behind friendly lines, to minimize the threat of enemy fighters. This scenario rarely happens in TAW. 

#5. These are the Luftwaffe bomber numbers at the start of Barbarossa:

Junkers 88: 536 (56%)

Heinkel 111: 280 (30%)

Dornier 17: 133 (14%)

The Junkers 88 numbers were approximately a 50/50 split between the A-4 and older A-5 models. The Heinkel 111 H6 model had begun being produced in late spring 1941, and only 135 had been produced by 7/1941. By 11/1941 most of the Ju 88 A-5 models had been replaced by the A-4. Junkers 88 production numbers were roughly double those of the He 111 from 1940 until bomber production ceased later in the war.

I request that the Ju 88 be added to Map #1, and if something needs to be removed as a counter-balance, please remove the BK-37-armed Ju 87.

Sources:

Ilyushin IL-2/IL-10, Yefim Gordon, Sergey Kommissarov, Dmitriy Kommissarov

The Junkers 87 Stuka, Peter Smith

Junkers Ju87: From Dive-Bomber to Tank-Buster 1935-1945, Eddie J. Creek

Messerschmidt Bf 110/210/410: An Illustrated History, Heinz Mankau, Peter Petrick

Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis, and Military Simulation, Vol. IIA, Nigel Askey

Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis, and Military Simulation, Vol. IIB, Nigel Askey

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You write a one-sentence assertion with no references to back it up. Where are you getting your information? Here's what my references show:

 

on May 21, 1941, the Soviet NKAP issued Order #462S which directed factories 18, 380, and 381 (not factory #1) to produce VYa-23-armed IL2 aircraft in the following numbers:

 

August - 25

September - 50

October - 100

November - ALL

 

But things often don't turn out as planned, and all factories fell far behind Gvt-directed quotas in overall IL-2 production numbers, including the ones to be outfitted with the VYa-23, further exacerbated by the evacuation of all four factories eastward in October/November 1941, in which the main production Plant #18 did not produce a single aircraft for 35 days, resulting in the infamous Stalin telegram/threat to the IL-2 factory managers in late 1941.

 

SOME IL-2 regiments got the VYa-23-equipped aircraft in Sep/Oct 41, maybe even in August, but only a handful - not in any significant numbers. And for the reasons outlined in my previous post, I'll say it again - the VYa-23 was not the prevalent cannon of the IL-2 until Summer '42.

 

 

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To clarify the new plane set idea here is a little exemple for the one map. On the right old plane set. On the left fighters divided into two lines. As you can see it doesn't have any impact on bombers and attackers. It only limits number of fighters forcing pilots to use more often bombers/attackers if run out of fighters. 

 

image.png.c1ed359bfaba911ca0ad0a48f62884d0.png

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@=LG=Kathon  Will you consider splitting up the Plane Types by Locking Modifications?

 

Meaning: 

I-16 becomes: I-16 Type 24 and I-16 Type 28 (Shvak Cannons)

Bf109E-7 becomes Bf109E-7 and Bf109E-7/B (Jabo Variant with Full Armor Package and always carrying Bombs)

Pe-2-87 becomes Pe-2-87 and Pe-2-110 (with UBS Turret)

Fw190A-5 becomes 190A-5 and 190A-5/U-17 or simply 190F-3 (with U-17 Modifications)

La-5 becomes La-5 and La-5F early

Spitfire becomes Mk.Vb Merlin 46 and Merlin 45

Ju-87 becomes Ju-87D-3 and Ju-87G-1 (3.7BK and Armor)

Il-2 1942 Model is Split up into Turreted and Non Turreted. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

New complaint! Too much time between TAW!!!! Purely selfish complaint. I want more TAW!!! Need my fix!

 

Thanks guys. I have a lot of fun in your house.

 

For the proposed changes.

 

I don't care for the line fighters choice. I like to fly the imports and domestic when I fly VVS. My 2c on that idea.

 

 

Finally, HvB....... Great posts.

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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Posted (edited)

Everyone (...except for 7.GShAP/Silas) have brought up some very good points!

 

What I am confused about is none of this addresses the fact that RED will always win the campaign as long as TAW remains over centralized on stopping ground advancement.

 

How about this: using some combination of Hellhound's,  Klaus_Mann plane-set and HvB's restrictions on both heavy anti-tank weapons and historically accuracy.

  1. The goal would be to use "air-power" to capture cities by #of points lost from it's ability to supply adjacent airbases, camps and depots. Work in the use of transports and paratrooper drops as well.
  2. The main objective is to use aircraft to prevent other aircraft from achieving their objective. Not using aircraft to prevent vehicles from achieving their objective (...because this is a flight combat simulation - not a ground strategy simulation).
  3. Bridges, tanks or trucks are just to provide points for lowering supply - not to prevent them from advancing or retreat. This means that anti tank aircraft instrumental in stopping advancing armor i.e. winning maps before are now leveled drastically.
  4. Strategy now will concentrate on fighters flying CAP, SWEEPS or bomber ESCORT (close or ahead). Ground attack aircraft will attack objects - they just won't be as crucial to the outcome of the map. Bombers are now attacking factories and other strategic targets more so than what they currently are used for in TAW. 

 

I am not saying this is a concrete solution - just one idea of many that will make both sides enjoy each campaign much more.

 

Special thanks to =LG=Kathon for soliciting suggestions for your users!

Edited by JG7_X_Man
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Posted (edited)

I like your idea X-Man.

 

To add to it I would like to see more emphasis on logistics. Smashing bridges and supply convoys to lower resupply points would be good. Having this effect how the advancing army performed would be realisticish..... No fuel, no bullets, advance stops. Even if the tank convoy gets wiped if the logistics have not been as well it comes back.

 

A tank/infantry advance should need more steps to kill it from the air. A concerted effort by a squadron can make short work of a tank convoy. Hitting it should help but not do the job on its own.

 

Can we mimic infantry battles with emplacements?

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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The only problem with modeling air power taking cities is that it is impossible. No mater how well secured an airspace is, without ground elements you can't take territory. This is true now and it was true then. Coming up with a credible simulation of a war zone while adhering to points one or two simply cannot be done.

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Posted (edited)

About the different lineups.. If they aren't done right they wouldn't improve the server experience, I mean they have to be carefully picked up if you want to make them more of a user style preference, otherwise if one is just clearly better most of the people would choose that one because of being the most competitive.

 

I would like to have more accurate planesets, I don't like much the way TAW implements the planes in a "counterpart" fashion. For example the 109 E-7 being the counterpart of the I-16, the 109 F-2/MiG-3, the MC 202/P-40, making these planes usually share the +1 CM condition, or appearing and leaving the planesets at the same stages. The P-40 was used for much longer than the MC 202, the Bf 109 E-7 had an important fighter-bomber role until the Fw 190 came, which didn't happen with the I-16 (the I-153 would have been the Polikarpov sturmovik fighter in this regard).

I would prefer to have the planes more organized towards the timeframes in which they participated, and if you want to balance the availability between both sides you could arrange them in a way so that the total number of fighters is the same, but this wouldn't neccesary translate to all variants having the same numbers.

For example in an early-mid 1943 lineup you would have for the German side basically 109 G-2, 109 G-4, 190 A-3 and 190 A-5. In contrast the Soviet lineup is more diverese with Yak-1B, Yak-7B, P-39, Spit Mk V, La-5F and LaGG-3, this is the way it was and if you give the same total number of planes available to both sides it would give more numbers per variant to the LW side vs the VVS (kinda simulating the benefits of having a more standarized force, in contrast with having a diverse yet more complex/difficult to mantain and manage logistics lineup?).

HvB, about the 23mm discussion i'm not so sure about being that big of a problem in TAW. I know it's quite effective in ideal conditions (no winds, tanks in an unobstructed position) but in TAW there's generally crosswinds, turbulence, or the tanks can be in forest areas, that hampers it's effectiveness quite a bit because you need a good 1.5 sec or so continuous burst to take them out, once you need to take 2 or 3 passes per tank it becomes rather innefficient imho and me personally tend to use rockets/bombs or even the 37mm cannons to destroy them with the IL-2.

Besides, doing a carpet bomb attack with multiple smaller bombs with Pe-2/Ju 88/A-20 is more effective as you can get quite a few tank kills and get out fast, in a lower risk/high gain fashion compared to an IL-2 circling above the column sortie for prolongued time (if you want to make the most out of it's ammo capacity). And if we are talking about realism I don't think it was the norm to have these medium bombers making high speed diving attacks with internal bomb bay small bombs. IIRC the Pe-2 wasn't meant to perform diving attacks using internal bomb bay loadouts, I guess because of having the bomb bay doors open at high speeds, it wouldn't surprise me if the A-20 and Ju 88 also had problems with that.

 About planeset suggestions, I made a proposal some months ago, with a few changes towards more historic settings, and splitting some planes between variants in different quantities:
 

 

 


taw.png

 

 


In my planeset I have things like the I-16 separated in the cannon and non cannon variants, around 25% of the produced I-16s were of the cannon type so I thought this was a good relation to portray in the first map, the early-mid IL-2s being 50% ShVAK 50% VYa-23. There aren't 23mm LaGG, and only for one map they have the 37mm available, to represent the short combat test of this gun in the LaGG-3 and IL-2 1942. ShVAKs for the MiG-3 only available on it's last map, if i'm correct the 20mm MiGs appeared in 1942. 37mm guns for the Ju 87 appear in the early 1943 map and for the 1941 maps it would be restricted to simulate a Ju 87B (don't know if you can block non-mod loadouts) which could mount a centerline 500/250 Kg bomb and small bombs under the wings.

There is a general timeframe organization in which three maps represent roughly a complete year (early, mid, late). It begins in mid 1941, and then it goes on (late 1941, early 1942, mid 1942, late 1942, early 1943, mid 1943 and late 1943). There are a few concessions like leaving the first map an I-16 vs Bf 109 E-7 as only fighters because quite some people like the match up of these planes (without being "shadowed" by the better performing F-2 and MiG-3). The P-40 and MC 202 enter in early 1942 and the M-105PF engine LaGG and Yak-1 in mid 1942, the F-4 enters in early 1942 since it has 1.42 ata cleared, for the late 1941 map there is a split with the F-2, with the 20mm F-2 kinda simulating a 1.3 ata F-4... I know it's not ideal but it was the best I could come up with. Now that I look at it the Spit and the Fw 190 A-5 should appear a map or two earlier.

 

 

You can see that instead of the "counterpart" system each side's planeset more or less follows the variant progression that happened historically, and the balance happens at a total number level, around 6 fighters and 7 attacker/bombers (without counting transports) for each side.

Also this was before Kuban was released so that's why the newer planes aren't included. I have 0 in the starting numbers with each map because I really didn't know which would be ideal to have as initial numbers on each new map so that would go to TAW devs to decide (along with everything else, this is just a suggestion).

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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Love this Supey.

 

Keeping it historical is important so we can get a little tiny feel of what it might have been like. The more accurately we can "sim" the battles the better.

Personally, I didn't care about the history of the Eastern Front until this game.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, StG77_HvB said:

You write a one-sentence assertion with no references to back it up. Where are you getting your information? Here's what my references show:

 

on May 21, 1941, the Soviet NKAP issued Order #462S which directed factories 18, 380, and 381 (not factory #1) to produce VYa-23-armed IL2 aircraft in the following numbers:

 

August - 25

September - 50

October - 100

November - ALL

 

But things often don't turn out as planned, and all factories fell far behind Gvt-directed quotas in overall IL-2 production numbers, including the ones to be outfitted with the VYa-23, further exacerbated by the evacuation of all four factories eastward in October/November 1941, in which the main production Plant #18 did not produce a single aircraft for 35 days, resulting in the infamous Stalin telegram/threat to the IL-2 factory managers in late 1941.

 

SOME IL-2 regiments got the VYa-23-equipped aircraft in Sep/Oct 41, maybe even in August, but only a handful - not in any significant numbers. And for the reasons outlined in my previous post, I'll say it again - the VYa-23 was not the prevalent cannon of the IL-2 until Summer '42.

 

 

 

 

On August 20th 1941 the 4th Ground-Attack Regiment handed over the last three remaining IL-2s in its inventory to the 215th Ground-Attack Regiment and flew to Voronezh for re-formation.  Re-formation was completed by September 4th 1941 with the regiment having two squadrons rather than five.  All of those new IL-2s had 23mm cannons installed.  Source:  "Red Star Over The Swastika", with this section written by Vladimir Vershinin, who was there.

 

I've seen this corroborated elsewhere and have no reason to doubt it.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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Posted (edited)

I have to express my doubts as well. I like to switch between Fw 190 and Bf on a regular basis depending what I plan to do. Focussing on Fws would limit my high alt/anti bomber/high cover capabilites and only 109s would mean that I can't use the Fws for low level jabo/bad weather operations.

imho a very bad idea.

Edited by DerSheriff
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

On August 20th 1941 the 4th Ground-Attack Regiment handed over the last three remaining IL-2s in its inventory to the 215th Ground-Attack Regiment and flew to Voronezh for re-formation.  Re-formation was completed by September 4th 1941 with the regiment having two squadrons rather than five.  All of those new IL-2s had 23mm cannons installed.  Source:  "Red Star Over The Swastika", with this section written by Vladimir Vershinin, who was there.

 

I've seen this corroborated elsewhere and have no reason to doubt it.

Thanks for the reference - I own this book as well and have read Vershinin's introduction mentioning that re-formation.

 

The passage states,

 

"The regiment was re-formed in Voronezh by 4 September, but now it consisted of two squadrons instead of five. It received new Sturmoviks armed with 23mm wing guns designed by Volkov and Yartsev...."

 

It does not state, like you did, that all of the regiment's replacement aircraft were armed with the VYa-23, though I can see how you might infer that. NKAP Order 462S is a matter of historical record, as is its production directive of 25 aircraft for August 1941. The VYa-23 was not cleared for installation in production aircraft until July 26, 1941, and production started at Plant 18 sometime in August after receiving technical drawings of the modifications and carrying out the required re-tooling. If Plant 18 managed to actually deliver 25 VYa-23-equipped IL2s in August, which is doubtful, and the 4th GA Regiment received 20 new VYa-23-equipped IL2s in August to equip two squadrons, then it was the first and only regiment to receive them at that point in time. Since it was re-formed in Voronezh, the same location as Plant 18, it is possible that they got whatever had been produced by Sep 4.

Edited by StG77_HvB
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Is there a plan for introducing the BoBP plane sets to TAW ? will you wait for BoBP maps, or something else ?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, StG77_HvB said:

Thanks for the reference - I own this book as well and have read Vershinin's introduction mentioning that re-formation.

 

The passage states,

 

"The regiment was re-formed in Voronezh by 4 September, but now it consisted of two squadrons instead of five. It received new Sturmoviks armed with 23mm wing guns designed by Volkov and Yartsev...."

 

It does not state, like you did, that all of the regiment's replacement aircraft were armed with the VYa-23, though I can see how you might infer that. NKAP Order 462S is a matter of historical record, as is its production directive of 25 aircraft for August 1941. The VYa-23 was not cleared for installation in production aircraft until July 26, 1941, and production started at Plant 18 sometime in August after receiving technical drawings of the modifications and carrying out the required re-tooling. If Plant 18 managed to actually deliver 25 VYa-23-equipped IL2s in August, which is doubtful, and the 4th GA Regiment received 20 new VYa-23-equipped IL2s in August to equip two squadrons, then it was the first and only regiment to receive them at that point in time. Since it was re-formed in Voronezh, the same location as Plant 18, it is possible that they got whatever had been produced by Sep 4.

 

 

Yes, that is possible, though I have in a notebook three other quotes speaking to the 23mm armed IL-2s being at least not uncommon, in autumn 1941.  I'll see if I can find their original sources(I neglected to keep them, I searched them out of my own curiosity a couple of years ago) .

 

I don't at all mind if the 23mm is restricted to a later date on the IL-2, if that is appropriate.  But I WOULD like to see a source from a regimental level that backs up your timeline before they are restricted(of course we do not get everything that we wish for) .  Brano would know, I think.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas

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Posted (edited)

Instead of limiting the plane numbers. Make dead is dead for each map. You can make it the same for bailouts and ditching a plane. You are out for the duration of the map. It will make you protect your virtual life. Also nothing counts unless you land. It will put an end of map bomber attacks and raids. A two  hour map is long enough to take-off bomb a target anywhere on the map and the land. If it is a bigger map extend map time. To clarifies when I say map, I mean mission. This will open the map up for players battling to get in as well.  Lastly why not consider when someone dies or is captured you not only reset their AK and GK streak but  you remove all benefits with CMs the pilot has earned. This would make pilots go to great lengths to stay alive.

Edited by =69.GIAP=Shvak
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Posted (edited)

Take a two day break and woah! Lots to catch up on.

First of all, Kathon, thank you for removing cold start. 

 

On the matter of the proposed changes. In short, I don't think it is a good idea to limit fighters in individual map, and really restricts what makes TAW great in terms of flexibility. A map could present itself with a dire situation over one of your AFs or precious columns that above all needs to be protected. But if you picked ground attack, you will only have a 110E to fly CAP? In a current state of the game where we are already limited on types of aircraft that we can historically use, why further restrict ourselves? 

 

11 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

HvB, about the 23mm discussion i'm not so sure about being that big of a problem in TAW. I know it's quite effective in ideal conditions (no winds, tanks in an unobstructed position) but in TAW there's generally crosswinds, turbulence, or the tanks can be in forest areas, that hampers it's effectiveness quite a bit because you need a good 1.5 sec or so continuous burst to take them out, once you need to take 2 or 3 passes per tank it becomes rather innefficient imho and me personally tend to use rockets/bombs or even the 37mm cannons to destroy them with the IL-2.


It's more effective than the 101 and 103 in the Hs-129, and in the end, more effective than the 37mm on the Ju-87. The VYa set at a ~400m convergence, you can kill any tank from the side in one pass. Even in horrible wind conditions, it is MUCH easier to get rounds to hit with it than with the 37mm. The 37mm isn't a guaranteed one shot hit either. It is if you hit convergence perfectly. But in tough conditions I would still much prefer having the VYa. 

 

But your plane set is the best one I've seen so far proposed! Just make sure to give the A-20 to the Russians by the winter Stalingrad map. 

Edited by StG77_Kondor
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1 hour ago, =69.GIAP=Shvak said:

Instead of limiting the plane numbers. Make dead is dead for each map. You can make it the same for bailouts and ditching a plane. You are out for the duration of the map. It will make you protect your virtual life. Also nothing counts unless you land. It will put an end of map bomber attacks and raids. A two  hour map is long enough to take-off bomb a target anywhere on the map and the land. If it is a bigger map extend map time.

It already bad enough that no one spawns in during the last 30 minutes as it is. Making it so you had to land would basically force bombers to not even take off if there isn't at least an hour left. That'd leave a pretty hollow server.

 

Dead is dead every map isn't a terrible idea, but again I think it might just limit the numbers too much. It'd probably be better if anything increase the death timer. I really think there much better ways to handle the changes.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, =69.GIAP=Shvak said:

En lugar de limitar los números de los aviones. Hacer muerto está muerto para cada mapa. Puede hacer lo mismo para rescatar y abandonar un avión. Estás fuera mientras dure el mapa. Te hará proteger tu vida virtual. Además, nada cuenta a menos que aterrices. Pondrá fin a los ataques y las incursiones de los bombarderos de mapas. Un mapa de dos horas es lo suficientemente largo como para lanzar una bomba a un objetivo en cualquier lugar del mapa y la tierra. Si es un mapa más grande se extiende el tiempo del mapa.

1+ 

 

this would be fine for the maximum moments and the server's influence it would make sense to be waiting for members of squad that run out of site, we can rarely enter all unless we agree with the restart

Edited by =gRij=ToReRo

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10 hours ago, DerSheriff said:

Focussing on Fws would limit my high alt/anti bomber/high cover capabilites 

 

This alone would make it VERY GOOD idea.

 

The axis ground ponders and targets might actually get the cover they so very badly need. 

 

 

5 hours ago, =FEW=Herne said:

Is there a plan for introducing the BoBP plane sets to TAW ? will you wait for BoBP maps, or something else ?

 

 

Is there any BOBP content out yet? 

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The first two planes are out now for those who pre-order.

 

The more I think about setting a hard limit on the planes a player can use the less I like it. It works fine in a war time setting, the pilots don't have a choice but to show up and do their job and those same pilots are presumably trained and some kind of proficient at that job. In game though the player base is inconsistent in both play time and reliability. What if the bombers show up but none of the fighters? Or vise versa. Hellhoud's method could work well, I think. It incentives those who declare as fighter pilots to be fighter pilots but still allows the flexibility for them to jump into a bomber or attacker when needed. The only thing I'm not sure of is how his system would treat a fighter pilot's bombing mission in the tally towards CM. Would it be half credit or something like that?

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I think Kathon didn't mean that You have 4 fighters on all duration of map but just you have 4 fighters to choose from. You will be able to earn fighters by CM but just from your specialization

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8 hours ago, =69.GIAP=Shvak said:

Instead of limiting the plane numbers. Make dead is dead for each map. You can make it the same for bailouts and ditching a plane. You are out for the duration of the map. It will make you protect your virtual life. Also nothing counts unless you land. It will put an end of map bomber attacks and raids. A two  hour map is long enough to take-off bomb a target anywhere on the map and the land. If it is a bigger map extend map time. To clarifies when I say map, I mean mission. This will open the map up for players battling to get in as well.  Lastly why not consider when someone dies or is captured you not only reset their AK and GK streak but  you remove all benefits with CMs the pilot has earned. This would make pilots go to great lengths to stay alive.

 

Now this idea along with a greater emphasis on historical accuracy of plane sets for the time period gets my vote.... 

 

Not for everyone i know.

 

Maybe they could trial a map and see how it goes.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, =L/R=Coldman said:

I think Kathon didn't mean that You have 4 fighters on all duration of map but just you have 4 fighters to choose from. You will be able to earn fighters by CM but just from your specialization

Precisely. It came across as an idea born from the will to also get people to fly ground attackers more often, as soon as their fighters run dry. With 4 aircraft that is much earlier. However, having such a short fighter pool means you need to choose what to get. Hence, specialization on lines. 

 

But most guys I've seen just switch to transports, once they have no fighters left. So the idea may miss the problem. 

 

Also, a big issue and often mentioned reason on why people don't like to fly ground attackers as Axis is that the AAA is perceived as randomly incredibly deadly to Stukas, Ju88s and even 110s. That is what I hear. 

 

If that is the case, maybe it's an idea to take out one piece of gun completely from convoys, make it very deadly, and only install it around airfields. 

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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When will the next campaign start? Is there a date already defined?

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, =69.GIAP=Shvak said:

Instead of limiting the plane numbers. Make dead is dead for each map. You can make it the same for bailouts and ditching a plane. You are out for the duration of the map. It will make you protect your virtual life. Also nothing counts unless you land. It will put an end of map bomber attacks and raids. A two  hour map is long enough to take-off bomb a target anywhere on the map and the land. If it is a bigger map extend map time. To clarifies when I say map, I mean mission. This will open the map up for players battling to get in as well.  Lastly why not consider when someone dies or is captured you not only reset their AK and GK streak but  you remove all benefits with CMs the pilot has earned. This would make pilots go to great lengths to stay alive.

 

 

When you fly a ground attack mission(especially on TAW with high-level AA AI) , no matter how good you are and how careful you are, you take a risk with the anti-aircraft guns.  There is always an element of chance.  It seems like if you implement this kind of rule, the only people who really benefit are the top-tier 'experten' in their fighters who are supremely careful around enemy fighters and never fly ground attack.  If I could hear a single good dedicated ground attack pilot support this idea and explain to me his reasoning, I would be happy to listen.

Edited by 7.GShAP/Silas
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