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Tactical Air War

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, JG7_X_Man said:

I have been wondering why so many new players fly GERMAN - I wonder if it has to do with the easier engine management of German aircraft on full real servers? The fact is the Bf 109 and Fw 190s are easier to fly that Spits, LaGGs and Yaks with there management of Prop Pitch/Mixture/Super Charger/Radiator is just too much to learn. Unless you are highly motivated to do so.

 

If you can manage an E7 you can manage pretty much any VVS plane other than the P-40 with its glorious allison.

 

What you are completely missing is when it comes to actual flying and dogfighting ... thats where the 109 is a total bitch and you fight as much with your own plane as you fight with the enemy due to lockup torqueroll and loss of rudder authority.

Also in terms of TAW its really comfortable for longer flights to not sideslip like a mong all day when you get actual ruddertrim in pretty much any fighter other than the yak.

The only active managing you do while fighting as VVS is Rads and supercharger. The rest you slam full Fwd once the fight begins, mby set the mixture back to 90-95% if you arent in a mikulin that has automixture at 50%.

 

Lets be real nobody joins the VVS bec it has a sexy reputation, its acquired interest not primary/initial.

Edited by =FEW=N3croo
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Wow! This is very interesting and very insightful! The comments for you guys with aces status talking about what you in counter in TAW - really helpful in getting food for thought. I think Mitthrawnuruodo made a very good point! If you don't have a HOTAS, flying Luftwaffe is your best bet and then in combat this makes you even more a target for obvious reasons.

I wonder what would happen if the next TAW could have 2 servers - 1 for training and you have to pass an "Engine Management /Combat Course" to enroll into the main TAW game server after passing EMC 101 so to speak? LOL

 

What would be a dream is for the guys top 100 with highest KD ratio with the highest AKs or GKs can choose to become instructors on this training server (YES TOPGUN like in Nellis and Lipetsk). Looking at these stats - freakin' very impressive (...we know who you are Mitthrawnuruodo virtual widow maker you - don't hide LOL).

 

Good conversation guys!

 

The second issue is the lack of a Lisunov Li-2 - which should be on developers radar. I would have though the Ju-52 and the IL-2 would have been introduced together. That's just me spit balling.

 

 

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High KD is not as important as objectives. Pilots that cover and manage to bring attackers and bomber home are far more important than statwhoring hartmans that will run the second it feels like their streaks are in danger. 

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2 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

High KD is not as important as objectives. Pilots that cover and manage to bring attackers and bomber home are far more important than statwhoring hartmans that will run the second it feels like their streaks are in danger. 

 I agree - however consider what a high KD inclusive of a high AK and GK tell us about a pilot?

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1 minute ago, JG7_X_Man said:

 I agree - however consider what a high KD inclusive of a high AK and GK tell us about a pilot?

 

That he is probably unemployed or a student? 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

That he is probably unemployed or a student? 

 

Ouch! That's stereotyping - and we all know those assumptions are usually wrong. I think it says they have a very good ability to get the job of completing the mission and bringing the aircraft home (from a fighter perspective at least). From a bomber perspective though we could look at GK vs Deaths as a good stat.

 

Well not really because the He 111 payload is more than the Pe-2 (which more like the Ju 88 in terms of max bomb load), on average the Luftwaffe bomber pilot will take out more ground targets than a VVS bomber pilot on a single sortie. So I think the IL-4/IL-6 is more comparable and so should be added to this game in addition to the Li-2.

Edited by JG7_X_Man

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2  =LG=Kathon,

 

can you share the statistics for the every map in the last campaign?

 

Flight time for the teams,

 

lost planes by the enemy fire (AAA, humans) for the teams

lost planes by the human failure (ditched or killed without any damage from AAA or the enemy) for the teams.

 

lost by AAA for the teams

 

If you want i can analyse the data myself and send you the results. But for that i need raw data :)

 

 

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On 3/11/2018 at 6:06 PM, JG7_X_Man said:

 

Ouch! That's stereotyping - and we all know those assumptions are usually wrong. 

 

 

Maybe, but there is only 24 hours in a day, and having both needs time. 

 

There is usually sharp distinction of people who mainly fly attackers and people mainly fly fighters. Even among active players. 

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1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Maybe, but there is only 24 hours in a day, and having both needs time. 

 

There is usually sharp distinction of people who mainly fly attackers and people mainly fly fighters. Even among active players. 

 

OK I will give that Hahah! The server idea maybe too much for a game. Besides there is plenty of information how to fly multiplayer online - watched a good one from Bismark (sp) :)

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Most probably tomorrow we will get the 3.001 patch, so when will the next campaign start? 

If I remember right Katon wrote that it depend on the release of the patch.

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22 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

Most probably tomorrow we will get the 3.001 patch, so when will the next campaign start? 

If I remember right Katon wrote that it depend on the release of the patch.

 

As soon it is confirmed nothing is conflicting +"Katon time" is my guess.  

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34 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

Most probably tomorrow we will get the 3.001 patch

 

That would be great but, why tomorrow?

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Not so fast guys. Patch will change lot of things and we need to implement this changes to campaign. We will announce camp. start when we''ll be ready.

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On 11/3/2018 at 1:03 PM, DerSheriff said:




The biggest weapon of russian fighter pilots is that many german fighter pilots have no clue what the reds can do, and what not. I highly recommend to get started in red fighters at some point. You will feel like a super hero in 109 after one campaign in red fighters.  

hahahaha shsss do not say that, enough pressure already

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Posted (edited)
On 11/03/2018 at 4:50 AM, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

You described an issue that is indeed a part contributing to the plane count. I can personally say that when i started on IL-2, i started on Germans purely because it was less of a hassle and German planes had this legendary aura about them. The legendary 109 and 190, what could possibly go wrong? Instant ace, for sure! 

 

Then i got my arse handed to me by Yak's in most embarrassing fashion. So much so i was tempted to go whine on forums. But before i screamed "bias", i tried out red side and WOAH.

Flying reds was hard, but in the end, rewarding. Properly managed red plane could be made to preform almost as well as German plane but it still was not superior. After 3 TAW rounds purely on reds, jumping in German fighter makes me feel like i am flying a super plane, because i know how to fly the planes i go against, i know their limitations better. Despite what anyone have cried on the forums, only the Yak-1b and LA-5F comes even close to the performance of 109 or 190. And even then that holds true at sub 5km altitudes. Spit can offer some trouble for 109 above 5km but it is considerably slower in normal flight. 

 

Moral of the story was, if you are getting hammered by the technically inferior planes in your German super mount, issue is most likely with you and not the game :--D

 

 

 

I don't see how flying red is hard - you have technochat for all possible errors you could be making... Wrong mixture? Heres a handy warning to tell you about it! Engine overheating? Don't need to watch the dials - technochat is here to save the day. Set some weird RPM/Throttle settings? technochat will tell you what mode you are flying in, so you don't burn your engine by doing emergency by accident!

 

Literally the only difference between flying LW and VVS is that on the VVS side you need to have a few more buttons mapped and be able to respond to technochat warnings. Oh and I guess change supercharger gear when you pass 2.5km alt. I can see how it could be daunting for a complete new player - but those generally stay in single player.

Edited by JaffaCake
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2 hours ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

I don't see how flying red is hard - you have technochat for all possible errors you could be making... Wrong mixture? Heres a handy warning to tell you about it! Engine overheating? Don't need to watch the dials - technochat is here to save the day. Set some weird RPM/Throttle settings? technochat will tell you what mode you are flying in, so you don't burn your engine by doing emergency by accident!

 

Literally the only difference between flying LW and VVS is that on the VVS side you need to have a few more buttons mapped and be able to respond to technochat warnings. Oh and I guess change supercharger gear when you pass 2.5km alt. I can see how it could be daunting for a complete new player - but those generally stay in single player.

 

You are forgetting who are we dealing with here. There is some that think automatic gears are hard now days. 

 

The divide between people who want to learn even simplest of things, and the instant gratification crowd grows wider every day. 

When you are a new pilot who has literally no prior experience of flying, being told that "TAW is fun, you should join", take a guess, what side they go fly first. 

 

Now, i might be completely wrong, and there is some other reasons why Axis can snatch the defeat from the jaws of victory in such a prodigious manner. I have only my personal experiences of how i started, how i progressed and what i encounter to go by. But something tells me it is not the OP Soviet planes or red AAA....

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1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

You are forgetting who are we dealing with here. There is some that think automatic gears are hard now days. 

 

The divide between people who want to learn even simplest of things, and the instant gratification crowd grows wider every day. 

When you are a new pilot who has literally no prior experience of flying, being told that "TAW is fun, you should join", take a guess, what side they go fly first. 

 

Now, i might be completely wrong, and there is some other reasons why Axis can snatch the defeat from the jaws of victory in such a prodigious manner. I have only my personal experiences of how i started, how i progressed and what i encounter to go by. But something tells me it is not the OP Soviet planes or red AAA....

 

 

I would not consider people paying this much money and having this much patience to learn to take off in an aircraft as the kind "that think automatic gears are hard".

 

Technochat literally takes away any difference in "complexity of engine management" between LW or VVS aircraft. Its like driving a manual with an on-screen display that tells you "you need to press A to change gear now", and without having to ever bother with the clutch.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

I would not consider people paying this much money and having this much patience to learn to take off in an aircraft as the kind "that think automatic gears are hard".

 

Technochat literally takes away any difference in "complexity of engine management" between LW or VVS aircraft. Its like driving a manual with an on-screen display that tells you "you need to press A to change gear now", and without having to ever bother with the clutch.

 

 

Then to what would you attribute this widely reported discrepancy in the pilot discipline?  (Skill is wrong term to use in here, as one can be skilled and undisciplined)

It is true that sims are somewhat of heavy on the equipment side, but i've seen my shares of people asking for "good cheap" joystick and complaining that they had no track IR, even tho making one costs u less than 25 bucks. (And assumes you are not some who have never hold a sodder iron in his life, and even then there still hope for you if there is will).

 

And there is reason why there is "Hartmann" meme going around, even tho some people get colossally offended by it. (And you know who you are).

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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9 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Then to what would you attribute this widely reported discrepancy in the pilot discipline?  (Skill is wrong term to use in here, as one can be skilled and undisciplined)

It is true that sims are somewhat of heavy on the equipment side, but i've seen my shares of people asking for "good cheap" joystick and complaining that they had no track IR, even tho making one costs u less than 25 bucks. (And assumes you are not some who have never hold a sodder iron in his life, and even then there still hope for you if there is will).

 

And there is reason why there is "Hartmann" meme going around, even tho some people get colossally offended by it. (And you know who you are).

 

 

I'd attribute it mostly to the surrounding hype - nobody wants to fly an "inferior" plane. At the end of the day the newbies don't realise that they would perform better in a vvs aircraft, which is a better turn fighter, than if they flew a 109 and ended up turning with a competent yak anyway as they know no better.

 

The whole argument that "engine management is complex" is really silly. I'd love to see technochat completely removed and get stats on how many so-called vvs aces will burn their engines in the first few dogfights. 

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1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

You are forgetting who are we dealing with here. There is some that think automatic gears are hard now days. 

 

The divide between people who want to learn even simplest of things, and the instant gratification crowd grows wider every day. 

When you are a new pilot who has literally no prior experience of flying, being told that "TAW is fun, you should join", take a guess, what side they go fly first. 

 

Now, i might be completely wrong, and there is some other reasons why Axis can snatch the defeat from the jaws of victory in such a prodigious manner. I have only my personal experiences of how i started, how i progressed and what i encounter to go by. But something tells me it is not the OP Soviet planes or red AAA....

Unfortunately You are right. The instant gratification crowd grows bigger and bigger and I'm not only speaking about the il2.

 

I remember when many years back as a 16 year old, I started my "adventure" with flying . Each of us was totally focused on learning, we were watching each other take offs and landings to get better, but when I visited last summer my old airclub and seen the new people.... - they were totally not interested in what was going on, instead of watching their collegues flying and learning from their mistakes they were playing with  their phones not even speaking to each other and i wonder if I'll see any of them this year...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

 

 

The whole argument that "engine management is complex" is really silly. I'd love to see technochat completely removed and get stats on how many so-called vvs aces will burn their engines in the first few dogfights. 

 

 

It is, for us who know better, but those not in the know, find it intimidating to say at least. 

 

And i am all for the removal of tooltips, i stare in to the instrument panel like it is religious icon regardless of what the tooltips say, because they are sometimes misrepresenting the actual situation.  

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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24 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

It is, for us who know better, but those not in the know, find it intimidating to say at least. 

And i am all for the removal of tooltips, i stare in to the instrument panel like it is religious icon regardless of what the tooltips say, because they are sometimes misrepresenting the actual situation.  

 

Glad you are for it too - but until they are removed please do not argue that engine management is "more complex" :) There are bigger factors influencing the choice than that. And it certainly doesn't take an ace to learn to respond to technochat.

 

When you say it mis-represents - how so? Generally my belief is that most of the in-game timers are based on the output of technochat - overheat is by technochat (never had the engine fail without technochat warning), engine mode is again, via technochat etc.

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42 minutes ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

I would not consider people paying this much money and having this much patience to learn to take off in an aircraft as the kind "that think automatic gears are hard".

 

Technochat literally takes away any difference in "complexity of engine management" between LW or VVS aircraft. Its like driving a manual with an on-screen display that tells you "you need to press A to change gear now", and without having to ever bother with the clutch.


I think your right Jaffa. Though I also think you underestimate the casual players (noobs) knowledge of aircraft. Most of us, skilled pilots or not, have a passion for aviation. I'd even say that would be a prerequisite for picking a game of this complexity. I suspect the "noobs" very well know blue aircraft have the performance edge needed to dictate the engagement. Though their skill fails to utilize it, It sure feels good to have it. While from the other side fighting an enemy that has both that one very significant advantage and a stacked team would require the balls most don't have.

The yak really is a no-brainer to fly. But siddy has a point. Getting the most out of a spit, mig or p-40 while in combat, does take a little more attention than just keeeping your hand on the throttle. Hud or not.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, a_radek said:

The yak really is a no-brainer to fly. But siddy has a point. Getting the most out of a spit, mig or p-40 while in combat, does take a little more attention than just keeeping your hand on the throttle. Hud or not.

 

Well we are comparing the top-tier aircraft here. You have to manage rads / rpm on stukas  / he111 / ju / etc.

 

But majority of VVS flying is solved by mapping RPM to throttle axis, making sure you have access to radiator buttons (assuming newb with barebones joystick) and supercharger. You don't even have to bother with mixture - leave it at 100%, there is no penalty in the game for it.

 

Also do not forget that majority of the LW stuff has very tight timers set on them - so you cannot simply go 100% throttle and forget about it until temperature warning shows up. Technochat, at least for me on expert MP servers, does not show "exceeded boost time".

Edited by JaffaCake

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18 minutes ago, JaffaCake said:

 

Well we are comparing the top-tier aircraft here. You have to manage rads / rpm on stukas  / he111 / ju / etc.

 

But majority of VVS flying is solved by mapping RPM to throttle axis, making sure you have access to radiator buttons (assuming newb with barebones joystick) and supercharger. You don't even have to bother with mixture - leave it at 100%, there is no penalty in the game for it.

 

Also do not forget that majority of the LW stuff has very tight timers set on them - so you cannot simply go 100% throttle and forget about it until temperature warning shows up. Technochat, at least for me on expert MP servers, does not show "exceeded boost time".

This is all true, but as Radek said, You underestimate the casual player knowledge and willingness to learn new things.

 

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41 minutes ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

 

But majority of VVS flying is solved by mapping RPM to throttle axis, making sure you have access to radiator buttons (assuming newb with barebones joystick) and supercharger. You don't even have to bother with mixture - leave it at 100%, there is no penalty in the game for it.

 

 


Haha good tip! Like an ass I've been flying the spitfire with rpm on a separate rotary. Shows how noob I am. I don't see myself doing this for the p-40 though. Or mig mixture (boost),  yes mig boost has a more generous limit than 109 emergency.

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I assure you that we plan to remove technochat as soon as possible. I do not know if this possibility exists after new patch releas, but if so, the new campaigns will be without technochat. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, =LG=Padre said:

I assure you that we plan to remove technochat as soon as possible. I do not know if this possibility exists after new patch releas, but if so, the new campaigns will be without technochat. 

Personally I have no problem with it, but I'm afraid that the side effect of that change will be such, that even less people will fly the red side, so the blue side will be much more stacked than it was now.

Edited by Carl_infar
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Mapping the rpm to the throttle axis doesn't sound like the best idea. The yak for example goes faster at low altitude when you run it at only 2550 rpm (~84%) while still having the throttle at 100%. And when you get shot in the engine you want to reduce the rpm most of the time to try to save it.

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16 hours ago, JaffaCake said:

But majority of VVS flying is solved by mapping RPM to throttle axis,

 

Jeez do people really do this?  I thought people were dumb for linking all their radiators & cowlings together :-)

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2 hours ago, Psyrion said:

Mapping the rpm to the throttle axis doesn't sound like the best idea. The yak for example goes faster at low altitude when you run it at only 2550 rpm (~84%) while still having the throttle at 100%. And when you get shot in the engine you want to reduce the rpm most of the time to try to save it.

 

 

We were talking about newbies flying aircraft... in 109 you also can extend your boost by going 100% throttle at lower RPM - but that is no longer full-auto control.

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3 hours ago, Carl_infar said:

Personally I have no problem with it, but I'm afraid that the side effect of that change will be such, that even less people will fly the red side, so the blue side will be much more stacked than it was now.

 

 

Yeah, that would really not be good.  Maybe a more severe balance mechanic would fix that.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

We were talking about newbies flying aircraft... in 109 you also can extend your boost by going 100% throttle at lower RPM - but that is no longer full-auto control.

 

Without loosing speed? 

edit: Just tried it, it's useless, you're loosing about 10km/h by reducing 100 rpm.

 

17 hours ago, =LG=Padre said:

I assure you that we plan to remove technochat as soon as possible. I do not know if this possibility exists after new patch releas, but if so, the new campaigns will be without technochat. 

 

Padre, is it possible to just add one word in the weather briefing about turbulences? Like none/light/moderate/strong. 

Edited by F/JG300_Faucon

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