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=LG=Kathon

Tactical Air War

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:)

 

 

 

We need taw soon... we are bored and starting never end debates.

 

 

 

I agree, flying red is more easy destroy enemy tanks, this isnt the point for me. The point is... because for reds is more easy kill tanks... please increase AAA ,change tank columns configuration and forbide some weapons, we need balance.... but if apply the same rule...  blues have more easy on air... especaily flying over 3000 mts....  whats is the solution then ??

 

What is more easy for one side and for the other? How much more easy? where is the standad level of dificult?

 

Maybe some balance allways is needed, but i repeat, best way is try apply historicity on weapons and aircrafts. Whit this tools the players have to do the best. 

 

Except some super aces, most of pilots here ( included me ) have a lot to improve for win maps, do a good cover , do a good defence position, etc, 

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I think the current set of what both the reds and blues have available is fair. The most important factor is not who has access to what, but who has the best teamwork and balance between attackers and fighters.  

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[...] Considering the try hard loadout for IL2's are 23mm + 6 100kg bombs, and the Pe2 can carry 10 of those, losing the 23mm but gaining the psychic gunners I dont see how it cant do it. Even more so if you consider that reds have the 37mm which starts to shoot at incoming attackers at almost 3km out, while the germans have to make do with the 20mm which dont shoot past 2km.... so yeah... I also think the reds have an easier time on the ground attack, at least when it goes for tank columns attacks.

 

Really, dude?  Your new tactic is just to belittle VVS pilots into not killing the columns as fast as possible?

 

You sure are an expert on VVS planes... I assume you'll be flying them in TAW to prove your own points?

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+1

 

 

I guess some people only see what they want to see.

 

 

@topic: its much much easier to blow up tanks with 100kg bombs compared to the 50 ones. Considering the try hard loadout for IL2's are 23mm + 6 100kg bombs, and the Pe2 can carry 10 of those, losing the 23mm but gaining the psychic gunners I dont see how it cant do it. Even more so if you consider that reds have the 37mm which starts to shoot at incoming attackers at almost 3km out, while the germans have to make do with the 20mm which dont shoot past 2km.... so yeah... I also think the reds have an easier time on the ground attack, at least when it goes for tank columns attacks.

 

Shouldn't your faster, higher flying, fighters be more than enough to compensate for the supposed lack of ground based AA ability? One would think that a fighter capable of engaging and disengaging at will with anything on the field at this point, would be able to cover the area outside the umbrella of protection the ground based guns provide. Or do you lack the requisite skill to intercept the IL-2 with it's blazing 400 kph speed and maneuverability of a slightly beached whale? And why should Red pilots forsake the best tool for the job? I suppose you always take out the least powerful 109 you can get your hands on, right? If you really want to make the argument that the IL-2 should be limited because the Blues can't keep up, fine. But if you do it might not be long before you start seeing arguments against allowing 190s and 109-G's: their Red counterparts just can't keep up.

 

And do you people ever get tired of banging on about the gunners in PE-2's? You do know that the code for the PE-2 gunners is the same for every other gunner in the game, right? But, no, it is always the PE-2 gunners that are the problem.

Edited by Disarray
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And do you people ever get tired of banging on about the gunners in PE-2's? You do know that the code for the PE-2 gunners is the same for every other gunner in the game, right? But, no, it is always the PE-2 gunners that are the problem.

 

Actually I believe there is something going on with the Pe-2 w/respect to the AI gunner.  We flew German last round of TAW (Russian the round before that, and this coming round as well), and a squaddie and I were both victims of the boom and zoom pass from the Pe-2's high six where you pull up above the nose and are instantly shredded.  I think Meow Scharfi had a video on YT as well showing this.

 

Since I'll be flying Russian, I guess I shouldn't complain about it, as I'll benefit (LOL) but seems something is off - especially since the top/rear gunner can't traverse the gun to the forward/high position! :).

 

Not sure if the dev's have acknowledged this issue or not.

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German gunners make that kind of shot too. I've been tagged by those shots coming from a 110, an 88, and a 111; hell even an 87 has tagged me a few times with those shots. I've been put down by single hits from German gunners, after a while. The only difference is the PE-2 gunner is shooting 12 mm while the Germans all shoot 7 mm rounds. You might be able to shrug off 7 mm rounds, unless they hit something vital like the pilot or the oil cooler, when a 12 mm round hits you it can be lights out. That doesn't make it unfair though. It makes it different.

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+1

 

 

I guess some people only see what they want to see.

 

 

@topic: its much much easier to blow up tanks with 100kg bombs compared to the 50 ones. Considering the try hard loadout for IL2's are 23mm + 6 100kg bombs, and the Pe2 can carry 10 of those, losing the 23mm but gaining the psychic gunners I dont see how it cant do it. Even more so if you consider that reds have the 37mm which starts to shoot at incoming attackers at almost 3km out, while the germans have to make do with the 20mm which dont shoot past 2km.... so yeah... I also think the reds have an easier time on the ground attack, at least when it goes for tank columns attacks.

 

I'm sorry but the russian columns don't have 37mm gun. The guns defending the columns are ZIS-5 72k 25mm ones as per LG statement from december - the only truck mounted russian guns in game.

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All gunners are a bit OP in my opinion. It shows clearly with the Pe-2, where larger caliber makes hits very deadly. As said German gunners hit targets equally but their rounds are less effective. And I think it should be a bit harder to hit targets with hmg with low rate of fire than lmg with high rate of fire. Atm their accuracy is pretty much the same.

 

Gunners shoot with great accuracy despite hard evasive maneuvers done by bomber, and the fighter at the same time. We've seen impossible shots in videos which just can't be done irl.

 

But it's very hard to make AI gunners that are just right in every situation, don't hit too much or don't miss too much. If it's possible, I would limit AI gunner skills in bombers to normal at maximum atm. Don't know how the skill level is determined with player controlled planes.

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Gunner hits also depend on Netcode, I've been hit in ways I never have in SP, but thats another thing.

 

Flying german this time...feels weird already :biggrin:

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Gunner hits also depend on Netcode, I've been hit in ways I never have in SP, but thats another thing.

 

Flying german this time...feels weird already :biggrin:

Yes netcode does weird things sometimes but I've witnessed impossible shots also in SP many times.

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Yes netcode does weird things sometimes but I've witnessed impossible shots also in SP many times.

Agreed, but I have to say that flying against bombers offline is so much more fun than it was before they linked gunner skill to the pilot skill in the QMB. Now on "Normal" you get punished for tailgating but there are way fewer miracle shots!

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Agreed, but I have to say that flying against bombers offline is so much more fun than it was before they linked gunner skill to the pilot skill in the QMB. Now on "Normal" you get punished for tailgating but there are way fewer miracle shots!

Yes, normal level is quite all right. Would be even better if they locked all gunners to normal regardless of pilot skill.

 

But how does it work in mp? Are all gunners ace or is it configurable by the server admins?

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I flew a ton of German bomber missions in the last couple TAW campaigns and I could probably count on my hand how many times my gunners shot down an intercepting fighter. It happened so rare, despite my gunners often blazing away until their ammo was gone, that pretty much remember each time because of my surprise.

 

I’ve been shot down by PE2 gunners probably in the triple digits on TAW. If gunner skill levels are changed to normal for both sides, I guess that would be fine with me. It’s not like German gunners do a heck of a lot even on Ace.

 

To those that say “but German gunners make impossible shots, too, it’s happened to me”, go fly 100+ consecutive sorties in a He-111, Ju-88, or even 110. Then come talk. If you’re saying that, your data set is clearly limited.

Edited by HenHawk
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This weekend?

Any chance the new aircraft can make an entrance mid campaign? If they release during that is?

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This weekend?

 

Any chance the new aircraft can make an entrance mid campaign? If they release during that is?

=LG=Leutnant_Artur-Last Wednesday at 5:08 PM
 
planeset is updated including all Kuban planes + g6 and La5FN
 

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I’ve been shot down by PE2 gunners probably in the triple digits on TAW. If gunner skill levels are changed to normal for both sides, I guess that would be fine with me. It’s not like German gunners do a heck of a lot even on Ace.

 

To those that say “but German gunners make impossible shots, too, it’s happened to me”, go fly 100+ consecutive sorties in a He-111, Ju-88, or even 110. Then come talk. If you’re saying that, your data set is clearly limited.

 

The only statistic can show the real situation. I can only say that on the WOL server 35% of the Pe2 35 series flew home (for the maps 1941) and 41% Pe2 87series flew home (without a turrel for the maps 1941).

 

As you can see, 12 mm makes a big difference.

 

P.S. 35% and 41% for the all missions in dec-2017 for the status "landed".

Edited by Kra

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=LG=Leutnant_Artur-Last Wednesday at 5:08 PM
 
planeset is updated including all Kuban planes + g6 and La5FN
 

 

 

Dziękuję!

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All gunners are a bit OP in my opinion. 

 

That is correct, except for the IL2 gunner.

The gunner in the IL2 is always drunk, they can´t hit an elephant.

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I flew a ton of German bomber missions in the last couple TAW campaigns and I could probably count on my hand how many times my gunners shot down an intercepting fighter. It happened so rare, despite my gunners often blazing away until their ammo was gone, that pretty much remember each time because of my surprise.

 

I’ve been shot down by PE2 gunners probably in the triple digits on TAW. If gunner skill levels are changed to normal for both sides, I guess that would be fine with me. It’s not like German gunners do a heck of a lot even on Ace.

 

To those that say “but German gunners make impossible shots, too, it’s happened to me”, go fly 100+ consecutive sorties in a He-111, Ju-88, or even 110. Then come talk. If you’re saying that, your data set is clearly limited.

 

The real question is how many of the planes your gunners shot up made it home. I have flown several sorties in a Yak, Mig or a LA where first contact with the enemy was a 111, I made my pass at high speed from a good angle, landed several good shots home crippling or killing the bomber or springing a leak so my buddies have an easier time seeing him only to get the case oil spread all over my canopy, or the water cooler busted or control linkages cut. Though that last one is admittedly rare any one of these damages will end a sortie. Depending on the distance home and if there are any difficulties disengaging I often time end up putting the plane down in a field. It isn't  the spectacular and instantly visible effect as found with the 12 mm rounds, I will grant, but a dead plane is a dead plane.

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The real question is how many of the planes your gunners shot up made it home. I have flown several sorties in a Yak, Mig or a LA where first contact with the enemy was a 111, I made my pass at high speed from a good angle, landed several good shots home crippling or killing the bomber or springing a leak so my buddies have an easier time seeing him only to get the case oil spread all over my canopy, or the water cooler busted or control linkages cut. Though that last one is admittedly rare any one of these damages will end a sortie. Depending on the distance home and if there are any difficulties disengaging I often time end up putting the plane down in a field. It isn't the spectacular and instantly visible effect as found with the 12 mm rounds, I will grant, but a dead plane is a dead plane.

Please, Disarray, if anyone should do this it should be you. Go fly 100+ German bomber missions online and then we can actually have a discussion. Mix in some fighter sorties where you try to stop some PE2’s, while you’re at it. I see you in particular hop instantly into these debates in many different threads and you really don’t bring much to the table. It’s always clear your viewpoint is very narrow.

 

TAW should lower all bomber AI gunners down, that way German defense will continue to be ineffective, but PE2’s won’t be as ridiculous as AI logic/weapon effectiveness in the game has allowed for.

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So a person attacking a German bomber has no idea what is going on in the situation at all? I kind of feel like that is a ridiculous standard. I would think that the person getting shot at by the gunners would have a lot more information than the person flying the bomber, not aiming the guns, not observing the fall of shot, not observing the damage inflicted on target. Or are you really going to argue that you, the bomber pilot, knows better what is happening to the fighter attacking you than the person in the fighter? I make no claim to any great experience as a German bomber pilot, I never have, but I don't have to fly 100 missions to see the dynamic in play here.  

 

I get it, you've pitched your camp, taken your side. You don't like that I disagree with you. Fine. But don't try this weak argument. It has, I think, been established that the gunners for both sides work in an identical way, the difference is that one is using an objectively better gun. Now, do you really want to take the stance that things should be changed to compensate for one sides lacking equipment? I don't think that you do want to take that stance because the natural extension of that stance is absurd. I think you would be far better served coming to grips with the reality that PE-2's are better defended from direct attack than their German counterparts and start trying to figure out a way you can work around that fact. Flying a Yak, or even worse a LaGG, the Soviet players have little choice but to accept that German fighters will have certain advantages over them and figure out a way around this if they have any designs on winning. Why should German bombers be so different? Why should German fighters looking to attack a PE-2 be so different? You want to make an argument for fairness, but the way you're going about doing so looks a lot like you are trying to carve out some kind of an advantage rather than overcoming an obstacle you can't negotiate on your own.

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Just checking that I have it correct. We have to re-register for the next campaign even if we were registered before, correct? We also have to start our sauad again as well?

 

Additionally, when is registration supposed to be open for this campaign? Will it be a day or two prior or on start?

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Abridged version: "you're a German bomber pilot only, my views on this still matter even though I'm a VVS pilot only"

 

I have flown many online missions on both sides, literally just flew with you on VVS the other day. When you get a good picture on each side, you'll be able to bring a lot more to these sorts of discussions. Just give it a try! 

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Yes, you will have to re-register for the upcoming campaign. Not sure about the squad angle but I should think they would have to be reformed as well. As to when, that's anyone's guess outside of LG. At least I hope LG knows.

 

Hen, I have flow both sides. I do fly Red more than Blue online, true, but I'm not entirely ignorant of that prospective. And in my experience the difficulty with killing the PE-2 and the defenselessness of German bombers are rather exaggerated. Why this is the case I don't know, I have rather unflattering suspicions, but I don't know.

Edited by Disarray

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Yes, you will have to re-register for the upcoming campaign. Not sure about the squad angle but I should think they would have to be reformed as well. As to when, that's anyone's guess outside of LG. At least I hope LG knows.

 

Hen, I have flow both sides. I do fly Red more than Blue online, true, but I'm not entirely ignorant of that prospective. And in my experience the difficulty with killing the PE-2 and the defenselessness of German bombers are rather exaggerated. Why this is the case I don't know, I have rather unflattering suspicions, but I don't know.

It is over exaggerated by some, I completely agree on that. But, there’s still a clear difference, which is not the fault of any VVS pilots or server admins. It’s just some fundamentals of the AI, really. I survive 80%+ of my bomber runs. Tactics and piloting are key, if gunners come into play you’re pretty much going to get pretty banged up no matter what you’re flying. Complaints come when things seem unrealistic, PE2’s are designed in a way that seems to have all the advantages for how the AI logic acts. Yes, gunners on both sides make unrealistic shots and damage, PE2’s just do it way more and it really kills immersion for me and many others. It’s just a combination of how the plane is designed/armed in real life with how the devs codes AI for gunners, turned out to be a jackpot situation for PE2’s relative to other bombers. Edited by HenHawk
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I simply do not see the issue if the gunners for either side are using the same code. It would be as ludicrous to say that 109's need to be modified in such a way so they cannot go faster than 550 kph because a Yak 1 can't keep up otherwise. The PE-2 has a fantastically powerful defensive gun set, true, but the German gunners score hits at a similar rate. How is that unfair?

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Hen, I have flow both sides. I do fly Red more than Blue online, true, but I'm not entirely ignorant of that prospective. And in my experience the difficulty with killing the PE-2 and the defenselessness of German bombers are rather exaggerated. Why this is the case I don't know, I have rather unflattering suspicions, but I don't know.

WOL stat, dec-2017
 
NAME          SORTIES AK       PERC
he111 h16      179          44     0,245810055865922
pe2 35 series 910         138     0,151648351648352
he111 h6        1738        89      0,0512082853855006
ju88                2494       381     0,152766639935846
bf 110 e2        3073       303     0,0986007159127888
pe2 87 series 5583       1062   0,190220311660398
 
as you can see, the Pe2 87 is better than ju88, 110e2, 111 h6
 
best one is he111 h16
 
P.S: the stat here is not 100% clear, some people attacked the AF and it will be also calculated as AK (human player on the ground). But i think it shows at least that the blue team should use he111 h16: =)
Edited by Kra

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You can try it yourself on 72AG server. There is the point "Poligon" where you can start your Pe2 in the air and 5x T IV just in 3 km radious. Do not forget to load 10x100. To be honest was a big surprise for me how easy it is. I tried before only 4x250 vs tanks on WOL server and it works perfect, but 10x100 just do it better:)

 

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/ru/sortie/log/2352623/?tour=27

What are the wind settings on this server and is the column flanked by trees? The usual TAW experience often involves ridiculous winds and killer trees

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I simply do not see the issue if the gunners for either side are using the same code. It would be as ludicrous to say that 109's need to be modified in such a way so they cannot go faster than 550 kph because a Yak 1 can't keep up otherwise. The PE-2 has a fantastically powerful defensive gun set, true, but the German gunners score hits at a similar rate. How is that unfair?

Now you’re being a bit silly, pretty poor analogy. This issue is about immersion for me. It kills the whole feel of the game to have my engine shot out or to be pk’d when I setup a well planned attack, but still get hit with what should be an impossible shot. PE2’s are just more able to do this with they way they are designed and the way the AI is. I go back to my original post, if you still want to act like this is an imaginary thing held in the minds of people that want to see the blue side gain all the advantages, then take my challenge and fly a lot of sorties on the German side. It really should say something that I fly bombers for the most part and am still asking to universally adjust AI levels to normal.

 

 

WOL stat, dec-2017

 

NAME SORTIES AK PERC

he111 h16 179 44 0,245810055865922

pe2 35 series 910 138 0,151648351648352

he111 h6 1738 89 0,0512082853855006

ju88 2494 381 0,152766639935846

bf 110 e2 3073 303 0,0986007159127888

pe2 87 series 5583 1062 0,190220311660398

 

as you can see, the Pe2 87 is better than ju88, 110e2, 111 h6

 

best one is he111 h16

 

P.S: the stat here is not 100% clear, some people attacked the AF and it will be also calculated as AK (human player on the ground). But i think it shows at least that the blue team should use he111 h16: =)

Very interesting stats. Kathon, do you have similar stats for TAW? Not sure WoL is the best data set, but it does give a fair picture of things. Edited by HenHawk

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What are the wind settings on this server and is the column flanked by trees? The usual TAW experience often involves ridiculous winds and killer trees

 

As i said before the good weather needed. Somethimes it is there, at lest 15..20% of the missions.

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Hen, well planned attacks get shut down, if this were not the case then everyone with a well put together plan would succeed even the plans that are working in opposition to each other. You can do everything according to your well considered and set up plan and still fall flat on your face, even if you properly accounted for all the variables and possible outcomes. Sometimes you need something to go left in your plan and instead it goes right, or up or down or any other direction that isn't left. What are called impossible shots get made. Any plane with a tail gunner is capable of making these 'impossible' shots, not just the PE-2's gunners. 

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The number of German sorties I've flown is entirely irrelevant to this issue.

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The number of German sorties I've flown is entirely irrelevant to this issue.

 

It's completely relevant to your opinion on the topic. It gets so tiresome to try to find solutions to problems that allow everyone to have a fun experience, only to have those that either over exaggerate the issue or completely discount others and deny anything even exits.  There is no reason multiple threads, videos, and stats need to be presented to you, or anyone else, that once again shows that there is a clear unrealistic behavior to the PE2 gunners.  All you nonsense paragraphs filled with "I think" and "it shouldn't be a problem" are just a bunch of one-sided theories. There are many that have practical experience and have looked into the stats. Do that, then come back and discuss. In the meantime, let everyone else have a discussion about what to do with something that is a known sim-killing experience.

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If the gunners are of equal skill, that is the gunners on any plane are as likely to hit the target they are shooting at then adjusting the gunner's skill is a pointless exercise. All you will achieve, even if we assume your premise that the PE-2 gunners are somehow special, is make all the gunners bad and the PE-2 just mediocre. The only result to expect from this is more dead German bombers. That won't help anything.

 

As for the PE-2 gunners being special, I'll apply a little logic for you to try to help you get over this. Which is more likely: The gunners and the gun positions have been specially programmed to be more effective. Or the defensive guns being 12 mm guns make them more effective at killing fighters? You seem to think you have all the experience and the only valid point of view, so clear that up for me.

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Snip: “Every blue flyer is making this stuff up”

 

 

Fine, I will indulge you this one time by going through what has already been found, but after this I won’t help you with trying to reinvent the wheel. PE2 blister turret = great field of fire, along with other guns onboard. It is packed with hard hitting 12mm. Great, that’s realistic, let’s fight.... but, hold on. Gunner AI set too high can do snap shots even at high speed attackers, at their edge of fields of fire, and during high g maneuvers. They can also track planes in clouds or in low vis situations. Others can speak on the exact specifics of AI logic way better than I can, but if you just take what I mentioned alone, it’s clear there will be problems with PE2 gunners in particular. So, dumb down all gunners so there is less accuracy during those crazy situations. Yes, PE2’s will still get the majority of defending kills relative to most bombers. But, situations where an attacker is coming in at 30-60 degrees, going 700kph, and making a slash attack, only to have engine/pilot killed insta-killed, should be reduced.... hopefully for both sides!

 

Crazy AI behavior seems like less of an issue for German bomber gunners because they mostly have weaker armaments, lower fields of fire, and can’t pull as much G. This all equals less red pilots saying “what the **** was that?!”. Clear as mud for you now?

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Fact1:  The code used for AI gunners is identical for both sides.

Fact2:  The PE2 design has better placed and more powerful guns so will kill more attackers.

 

If you turn down the effectiveness of the PE2 guns a little to allow pilots who make very careful high speed passes to mostly survive then most people will still make stupid attacks and die and the complaints will continue.

If you turn down the effectiveness of the PE2 guns a lot to allow pilots to get away with stupid attacks then the effectiveness of the LW bomber gunners will also reduce a lot and people will complain that the LW bombers wont defend themselves and there is no point flying them.

 

What people are really asking here is for the PE2s gunners to be weakened but the LW gunners to stay the same and I cannot agree with that.

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Last TAW campaign, hunting Peshkas wasn't much of a problem. Just bring gunpods on the Me109, or the standard 4x 20mm on the FW, and attack from the flank and above. Never just straight from above, made that mistake too many times...

 

Flying the Zerstörer with 37mm, 2x 20mm, 2x 7.92mm is also quite immersive and a lot of fun. You can hunt the late Peshkas with their turret like that.

 

My point is, the armament is there to deal with Peshkas. :)

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Fact1: The code used for AI gunners is identical for both sides.

Fact2: The PE2 design has better placed and more powerful guns so will kill more attackers.

 

If you turn down the effectiveness of the PE2 guns a little to allow pilots who make very careful high speed passes to mostly survive then most people will still make stupid attacks and die and the complaints will continue.

If you turn down the effectiveness of the PE2 guns a lot to allow pilots to get away with stupid attacks then the effectiveness of the LW bomber gunners will also reduce a lot and people will complain that the LW bombers wont defend themselves and there is no point flying them.

 

What people are really asking here is for the PE2s gunners to be weakened but the LW gunners to stay the same and I cannot agree with that.

Fact 3: gunners with heavy machine guns and low rate of fire should not get same hit rate as the gunners lighter guns and high rate of fire. No matter what plane or nationality. Especially when firing from bomber making evasive maneuvers.

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