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=LG=Kathon

Tactical Air War

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Wait for changelog ;)

 

Registration will be open few days before campaign start.

Awesome! So glad pre-registration is going to be a thing!

 

Kathon, I appreciate your work, and I'm glad you weren't put off as hart would have suggested.

 

It just seems so counter productive that everyone has to reinvent the wheel everytime they want to bring something to the community. Although, I totally understand guys not wanting to hand out things they've worked so hard on for free. I probably don't know enough to use it even if I had it haha!

 

Either way very glad to hear that the new campaign will be up soon!! Cheers to you, gents.

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A week to decide if the reds or the blues will be burdened with my mediocre abilities, i cant wait for the campaign to start.

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It can take out Pz38(t) reliably, did it a few times in the quickmission (I seemed to get them as a tank target more often in the VL map), just hit the rear half of the tank (from the side). 

Not trying to start another flame war here. But unless someone has better numbers this is what I've found for the Pz.38(t) armor:

 

Side: 30mm

Rear: 30mm

Roof: 15mm

Turret: 30mm/30mm/8mm respectively

 

This is for the up-armored version, the Ausf. F. I don't recall which one we have in the game, but there's no way .50 M2 should penetrate even 15mm of armor, right?

Edited by StG77_Kondor
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This is for the up-armored version, the Ausf. F. I don't recall which one we have in the game, but there's no way .50 M2 should penetrate even 15mm of armor, right?

 

 

im not sure how accurate this is but it might help 

M8 API:

The 12.7mm M8 API bullet has been around for a very long time. It is almost as old as the M2HB itself. I believe it was first introduced during WW2, as a further development of the M2 AP bullet.

At muzzle velocity, the 12.7mm M8 API will penetrate ~25mm of steel. However, like all rifle and machine-gun bullets, the M8 API is a relatively light projectile (40 g). Therefore, it loses its energy fairly rapidly. As a result the same bullet will only penetrate ~16mm of steel at 500m and ~13mm at 1000m.

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Based on what I can find the M8 API round can penetrate 16 mm of steel at 500 m and 13 mm at 1000 m. There is a better round M903 SLAP that can do 34 mm at 500 m and 27 mm at 1000 m, but I think that is a newer round. So shooting through the top deck might be a way to get inside the tank

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im not sure how accurate this is but it might help 

M8 API:

The 12.7mm M8 API bullet has been around for a very long time. It is almost as old as the M2HB itself. I believe it was first introduced during WW2, as a further development of the M2 AP bullet.

At muzzle velocity, the 12.7mm M8 API will penetrate ~25mm of steel. However, like all rifle and machine-gun bullets, the M8 API is a relatively light projectile (40 g). Therefore, it loses its energy fairly rapidly. As a result the same bullet will only penetrate ~16mm of steel at 500m and ~13mm at 1000m.

Thank you! This is similar to what I've been finding with quick googling. I believe what we have in game is just the standard M2 AP round. But even if that performs slightly less than this advanced M8, the .50 shouldn't have a problem penetrating a Panzer III turret from any direction. Or a Panzer IV turret from the roof. Both of which to me seems very optimistic. All considering the vastly overstated effect of USAAF/RAF airpower against German armor in Normandy. 

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Oh snap. I will return on January 30th. This will be my first TAW campaign (I played a few days in the old one only). Will I miss a lot of it in the first 8 days?

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Depends on how things shake out. Whole maps have ended in shorter time frames. On the other hand some maps last weeks.

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Loving TAW so far, keep up the good work guys!  :good:

Edited by HR_Grajo

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I think the back part of the side armor right over engine (not the front boxy party that sticks out) is not as thickly armored. At any rate the one we have in the game can be penned by the .50 M2, it is ridiculous that I would make that up, and this was just a week or 2 ago so not faulty memory

 

Panzer-38(t)_Ausf-D_winter4142_HD.jpg

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I think the back part of the side armor right over engine (not the front boxy party that sticks out) is not as thickly armored. At any rate the one we have in the game can be penned by the .50 M2, it is ridiculous that I would make that up, and this was just a week or 2 ago so not faulty memory

 

I wasn't implying that anyone was making anything up. I was referring more to the realistic ability of .50 cal AP ammo to penetrate even a light tank like this. The simplified way in which tank damage is modeled in the game wouldn't surprise me if "attacks from the side" from 6 wing mounted .50's (convergence being the key here). I was just able to do it myself, with relative ease in quick mission. Took several tries to get the 38(t) to spawn :). I was just hitting the general side hull/turret area and still reliably blowing them up, without aiming for specific weak points. 

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Just out of interest,  I found this diagram of a PzIII (sorry should say 'PzIV' as written on the diagram) saying the side armour at the rear was about 18mm 

 

fig2_panzerIV_panzer4.jpg

 

I also found an article that claimed the PzIII armour was brittle and prone to cracking when hit by t guns or DK bullets   http://tankarchives.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/pziii-armour.html     I assume the 'DK bullets' means the DshK 12.7mm heavy machine guns mounted on some Russian tanks.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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That image is a Panzer IV, you can tell first because of the long 75mm cannon, turret shape and 8 roadwheels.

 

The Panzers III and IV that we have in the Moscow, Stalingrad timeline would have 30mm of side and rear armor, I think the Panzer III L even 50mm of rear armor?

 

The Panzer IV had its rear armor decreased to 20mm in the later H and J variants iirc*, with the implementation of the side skirts against the Soviet 14.5mm AT rifle, which would also protect it against the VYa-23 since both weapons have similar AT capabilities.

 

*maybe happened earlier with the G when the frontal armor was increased to 80mm

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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that it starts soon please that my pilots are getting desperate they need competition thanks LG for keeping alive the spirit of competition for squads :biggrin: 

Edited by =gRij=ToReRo

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that it starts soon please that my pilots are getting desperate they need competition thanks LG for keeping alive the spirit of competition for squads :biggrin: 

+1 :lol:

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Thank you for the new TAE edition.

Maybe you can put the MC202 with out gunpods, stukas with out 37 cannon, on the first maps and give us the 20mm cannon on the i16.


 

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Maybe you can put the MC202 with out gunpods, stukas with out 37 cannon, on the first maps and give us the 20mm cannon on the i16.

LOL?

 

I am going to play this time the red side and it is just so funny to read something like this one. I propose to get the german only Ju52 in this case.

 

Can you explain..why Ju87 without 37mm? Did you try to kill the tanks on the red side..? You can kill 7 T IV EASILY with Pe2 35 series (If you are a good one, maybe 10 tanks). Ok, with good weather... But can you kill 7 T34 with 87 with the same weather (for sure no, max you can kill 6 T34 but usually 4..5)?

 

So, 10 max and 6 max. Easy to compare, isn't it?

 

One more question to =LG=. Did you change the blue tank column? It should be ONLY tank T IV there, no T III, no t38 or some sh*t like that.

Edited by Kra
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If I want to play TAW do I have to register before it starts and play from start to finish or can I drop in later?

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If I want to play TAW do I have to register before it starts and play from start to finish or can I drop in later?

You can drop in later.

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 the thing is a pair of forces.... on one side we have the historical accuracy in  the other side have the ballance... For me first option is better.

 

 

 

I agree whit neca, the question is not how many tanks can u kill " easy " flying a P2 , il2 or Ju88 . the question need be, how many mc202 or ju87 fly whit gunpods or how many I-16 dont have 20mm, or how many Lagg3 really mount 23mm , how many 1 tn bombs was dropped over stalingrad....  

 

I know any aproximation to problem  cant will be ideal. But i preffer this way.

 

About tank columns.... why have to change? the objective is pe2 cant kill this amount of tanks? no have historical data about composition of columns?? all ground forces was panzer iV ?? . I dont like this kind of things... i we start to balance on this way,,,, we never end.  But the point more significative for me is the next point... this is not a strategical game where u order actions and wait results.... here are virtual pilots flying... and they have the oportunity of do they job.  One team no want some column be "easy" killed by lonly pe2?? then go to column and do a good cover.  I preffer avoid solutions via unhistorical settings to apply solutions via  player actions.

 

Maybe at the end, the best solution will be a middle point betwen historicity and ballance. But last way is hard to justify and first point have suport of history* 

( allways writted by war winner )

 

 

 

Is my opinion.

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about columns....  will be very nice if on future, tanks columns can be representated on the game in other situations. No allways stationated along road.. some times can be stationated on a town,  or a field... under trees... and in other cases can be on moviment... along the field or runways.  Im sure, this kinds of objectives, have more difficult to be killed and not need change column configuration.

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About tank columns.... why have to change? the objective is pe2 cant kill this amount of tanks? no have historical data about composition of columns?? all ground forces was panzer iV ?? . I dont like this kind of things... i we start to balance on this way,,,, we never end.  But the point more significative for me is the next point... this is not a strategical game where u order actions and wait results.... here are virtual pilots flying... and they have the oportunity of do they job.  One team no want some column be "easy" killed by lonly pe2?? then go to column and do a good cover.  I preffer avoid solutions via unhistorical settings to apply solutions via  player actions.

 

The answer is easy. How many Pe2 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% TiV and 50% T III? Only 2.

                                 How many IL2 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% TiV and 50% T III? Only 2.

                                 How many 110 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% T34 and 50% T60, BT7)? 3..5?

                                 How many Ju87 (37mm) do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% T34 and 50% T60, BT7I? 3..4? and it is not so easy as with IL2 or Pe2. Just believe me. The bombs are all the time better.

                                 How many Ju88 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% T34 and 50% T60, BT7I? 2. and it is not so easy as with IL2 or Pe2. Just believe me. 

 

As you can see it is not balanced here properly and as a player that want to play fair on the red side i see only one way: balance it.

 

And you said...if you do not want to make it easy...just do a good cover. OK, than the red column should be reduced for 35% (seems 12 tanks or 11). And if you do not like that the blue team will destroy it easily, just do a good cover.

Edited by Kra

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Can you explain..why Ju87 without 37mm? Did you try to kill the tanks on the red side..? You can kill 7 T IV EASILY with Pe2 35 series (If you are a good one, maybe 10 tanks).

 

I consider myself a very good Pe-2 pilot and I've never had more than 6 tank kills with it (10x 100kg bombs), and that was lucky enough. Wonder what kind of super pilot you are to kill 7 Tanks easily in this plane.

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I thought that vs tanks Il2 is better? BTW there was video of one guy with unlimited ammo destroyed like line of hundred tanks with cannon, just one pass kill from from left then right - wow!

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I consider myself a very good Pe-2 pilot and I've never had more than 6 tank kills with it (10x 100kg bombs), and that was lucky enough. Wonder what kind of super pilot you are to kill 7 Tanks easily in this plane.

 

 

 

You can kill 7 T IV EASILY with Pe2 35 series (If you are a good one, maybe 10 tanks).

 

 

 

How many Pe2 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% TiV and 50% T III? Only 2.
 

 

Yes Kra,   Show us the video (no editing) .  Apparently it is *easy* so you can do it first try and it wont take you long to come back with the video proof of 7 or more tanks being destroyed by a PE2 in battle conditions.  Better still,  get a friend to help you with this easy task and destroy 16 randomly arranged tanks.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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I consider myself a very good Pe-2 pilot and I've never had more than 6 tank kills with it (10x 100kg bombs), and that was lucky enough. Wonder what kind of super pilot you are to kill 7 Tanks easily in this plane.

 

Unfortunately I did not try it on TAW (was on the blue side last campaign),

only on the 72AG training server last night. But the result is stable, with the good weather it should be not a problem to get the same one on the TAW server.

 

For sure you can say that the real situation is not the same. TRUE. But if it will reduce the kills on the Pe2, it will reduce the kills on Ju87, Ju88, Bf110 also.

 

Last campaign i destoryed more than 100 red tanks (i am a fighter in general) and my position is in Top 30 ground targets and TOP 30 air targets. I hope it is enough to show that i can compare the dificalty on the german side with the red one. Right?

I thought that vs tanks Il2 is better? BTW there was video of one guy with unlimited ammo destroyed like line of hundred tanks with cannon, just one pass kill from from left then right - wow!

 

Depends. I prefere Pe2. Only 10 attack and will fly home.

Edited by Kra

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Yes Kra,   Show us the video (no editing) .  Apparently it is *easy* so you can do it first try and it wont take you long to come back with the video proof of 7 or more tanks being destroyed by a PE2 in battle conditions.  Better still,  get a friend to help you with this easy task and destroy 16 randomly arranged tanks.

 

 

You can try it yourself on 72AG server. There is the point "Poligon" where you can start your Pe2 in the air and 5x T IV just in 3 km radious. Do not forget to load 10x100. To be honest was a big surprise for me how easy it is. I tried before only 4x250 vs tanks on WOL server and it works perfect, but 10x100 just do it better:)

 

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/ru/sortie/log/2352623/?tour=27

Edited by Kra

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You can try it yourself on 72AG server. There is the point "Poligon" where you can start your Pe2 in the air and 5x T IV just in 3 km radious. Do not forget to load 10x100. To be honest was a big surprise for me how easy it is. I tried before only 4x250 vs tanks on WOL server and it works perfect, but 10x100 just do it better:)

 

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/ru/sortie/log/2352623/?tour=27

 

On the stats you post the damages needed for the destruction of the tanks are 65% max, and you destroyed 4 of them.

Also I'd like you to consider how many tanks you could possibly destroy with 44x50kg bombs on Ju88 ;) Personally didn't have a problem with the early planesets though.

Edited by 216th_Jordan

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On the stats you post the damages needed for the destruction of the tanks are 65% max, and you destroyed 4 of them.

Also I'd like you to consider how many tanks you could possibly destroy with 44x50kg bombs on Ju88 ;) Personally didn't have a problem with the early planesets though.

 

Is it in general a difference if you hit directly the 0% damaged tank and 50% damaged tank? I don't think so.

 

And ? How many tanks did you kill with 44x50? ... I prefere 4x500 and 18x50, don't like to stay over the target more than 10 minutes. And the last time it was something like 12 tanks in one sorty. But for that you need really a LOT of time. As I said before, it is just pain if you want compare it with Pe2.

Edited by Kra

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The answer is easy. How many Pe2 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% TiV and 50% T III? Only 2.

                                 How many IL2 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% TiV and 50% T III? Only 2.

                                 How many 110 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% T34 and 50% T60, BT7)? 3..5?

                                 How many Ju87 (37mm) do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% T34 and 50% T60, BT7I? 3..4? and it is not so easy as with IL2 or Pe2. Just believe me. The bombs are all the time better.

                                 How many Ju88 do you need to kill 16 tanks? (50% T34 and 50% T60, BT7I? 2. and it is not so easy as with IL2 or Pe2. Just believe me. 

 

As you can see it is not balanced here properly and as a player that want to play fair on the red side i see only one way: balance it.

 

And you said...if you do not want to make it easy...just do a good cover. OK, than the red column should be reduced for 35% (seems 12 tanks or 11). And if you do not like that the blue team will destroy it easily, just do a good cover.

Kra with all respect, looks like you never fly a Pe2 over a column tank on TAW, impossible to kill 16 tanks with to 2 Pes.

The il2 is the best option to kill tanks and in the first map they dont have 23mm cannon.

That is the reason about my point, give us the 23mm on IL2 and the 20mm on i16, Im just looking for a good balance, not trying to disrespect anybody or point on a name.

Regards,

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Thank you for the new TAE edition. Maybe you can put the MC202 with out gunpods, stukas with out 37 cannon, on the first maps and give us the 20mm cannon on the i16.
 

 

While you are at it, lets ban 23mm alltogether on all aircrafts....

 

 

 

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

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Kra with all respect, looks like you never fly a Pe2 over a column tank on TAW, impossible to kill 16 tanks with to 2 Pes.

The il2 is the best option to kill tanks and in the first map they dont have 23mm cannon.

That is the reason about my point, give us the 23mm on IL2 and the 20mm on i16, Im just looking for a good balance, not trying to disrespect anybody or point on a name.

Regards,

 

We will see. I see it different. 8 tanks with one sorty, right..?

 

Again, for what reason do you need 2x 23mm if you  can kill the tanks easily with Pe2? To make some fighter sorties, right? It is not fair.

Edited by Kra

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Again, for what reason do you need 2x 23mm if you  can kill the tanks easily with Pe2? To make some fighter sorties, right? It is not fair.

 

You can't, not on TAW. usually you're happy if you hit 1-3 tanks in a Pe-2, 4 is a wet dream. (best I got was 6 in last rotation) You fly red this time, please try it, you will certainly have my applause If you can do better consistently.

 

While you are at it, lets ban 23mm alltogether on all aircrafts....

 

:rolleyes:

 

Il-2s standard armament: 23mm.

Edited by 216th_Jordan
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Hey Kra

Maybe you never saw a Ju88 raining bombs on a red tank column.

I think you are never fly one TAW and you are talking with out any field experience.

No more comments.

I made my point for the admins not to you. 

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Il-2s standard armament: 23mm.

Not in the early planes available during Barbarossa. During the first 6+ months of the war the IL-2's did not have 23mm. It only really started becoming prevalent in 1942.

 

I've said before that the ridiculously large German bombs should be banned from TAW (I would even ban the SC1000), as they were essentially special ordered. The 37mm has no place on a Stuka on the early maps - neither does the VYa on IL-2's or anything else. MG151/20 also shouldn't be available to Macchis during this period either. But hey, we've been told by admins that their objective in TAW isn't realism, or balance for the sake of balance. It's supposed to be a "challenge". 

 

 

Hey Kra

Maybe you never saw a Ju88 raining bombs on a red tank column.

I think you are never fly one TAW and you are talking with out any field experience.

No more comments.

I made my point for the admins not to you. 

Now ask yourself Neca ;) how come this tactic with the Ju-88 is really the best and most efficient way to kill Russian tanks? Ju-88's were never  used like this during the war, but in TAW we're forced to do it this way. Is it something with the tanks or AA that forces one side to act in an unrealistic way? Who knows. (Sarcasm)

 

PS. The Ju-88 was the most common bomber in the KGs during Barbarossa. Yet it's not been included in map 1 for a while now. (Unless that changes with the upcoming campaign).

Edited by StG77_Kondor
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Hey Kra

Maybe you never saw a Ju88 raining bombs on a red tank column.

I think you are never fly one TAW and you are talking with out any field experience.

No more comments.

I made my point for the admins not to you. 

 

As I said before i am in TOP 20 for the fighters last campaign and TOP 30 for the bombers. Do you think i lost something how the blue team plays?

 

You will see these 7..8 tanks (Pe2 35 series) in one sorty soon. It is...as i said before ... EASY.

Edited by Kra

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Not in the early planes available during Barbarossa. During the first 6+ months of the war the IL-2's did not have 23mm. It only really started becoming prevalent in 1942.

 

I've said before that the ridiculously large German bombs should be banned from TAW (I would even ban the SC1000), as they were essentially special ordered. The 37mm has no place on a Stuka on the early maps - neither does the VYa on IL-2's or anything else. MG151/20 also shouldn't be available to Macchis during this period either. But hey, we've been told by admins that their objective in TAW isn't realism, or balance for the sake of balance. It's supposed to be a "challenge". 

 

 

Now ask yourself Neca ;) how come this tactic with the Ju-88 is really the best and most efficient way to kill Russian tanks? Ju-88's were never  used like this during the war, but in TAW we're forced to do it this way. Is it something with the tanks or AA that forces one side to act in an unrealistic way? Who knows. (Sarcasm)

 

PS. The Ju-88 was the most common bomber in the KGs during Barbarossa. Yet it's not been included in map 1 for a while now. (Unless that changes with the upcoming campaign).

 

+1

 

 

I guess some people only see what they want to see.

 

 

@topic: its much much easier to blow up tanks with 100kg bombs compared to the 50 ones. Considering the try hard loadout for IL2's are 23mm + 6 100kg bombs, and the Pe2 can carry 10 of those, losing the 23mm but gaining the psychic gunners I dont see how it cant do it. Even more so if you consider that reds have the 37mm which starts to shoot at incoming attackers at almost 3km out, while the germans have to make do with the 20mm which dont shoot past 2km.... so yeah... I also think the reds have an easier time on the ground attack, at least when it goes for tank columns attacks.

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Hey Kondor, I refer about the Ju88 because of your uploaded videos, you are a killing machine with that plane.

Back to the point is impossible to made a war historical correct at this point of development, you need a balance one, that is what I looking for.

 

Staiger about your comment normally red pilots like me never wrote anything about unbalance. I put my point of view that`s it. If you look back, most changes on TAW, from the beginning were made to improve balance for blue side(admins think that is the correct and I respect that) not problem at all.

We still flying and winning by the way.

 

Regards.

Necathor

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