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[DBS]Tx_Tip

[FNBFs] New Dimensions to the Campaign...

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In order to further enhance the dynamic aspects of Friday Night Bomber Flights "Stalingrad Campaign". We are going to introduce some new dimensions to the Campaign.

 

1) Aircraft losses will now be tracked and updated here:
Campaign Aircraft Stats

The tracked numbers represent confirmed aircraft losses from Mission #19 "d'été", which introduced the Summer Map, through Mission #25 "Battlefront". This adds another victory condition to the Campaign. Namely one side or the other can now run out of available aircraft.

 

How it works for Designated Mission Aircraft...
Players will still signup as usual for aircraft that are designated to be flown within a particular mission. The ROE will contain the initial number of these designated aircraft available.

 

Example A: Lagg-3 (4) Pilot Slots are available. With a total of 10 Lagg-3 aircraft alotted within the ROE for the Mission.
5 Lagg-3s are lost from all causes during the mission.
Using an equation of Aircraft Losses divided by 2 and rounded up.
The Lagg-3 losses for that mission would be 3.

 

How it works for Undesignated Aircraft used during the Mission...
Players are now able to choose aircraft that were not designated within the Mission Signup and/or Designated Aircraft that were all lost during the Mission and a player or players decide to fly the same aircraft. These Undesignated Aircraft will not be in the ROE for the Mission. However they will be available on airfields for players to fly.

 

Example A: [DBS]Tx_Tip signs up for a Lagg-3 and survives a couple sorties, although in the process all of the Designated Lagg-3s were lost. [DBS]Tx_Tip then decides to fly another Lagg-3 within the Mission.
[DBS]Tx_Tip gets shotdown and the aircraft is destroyed.
The Lagg-3 losses would then begin to be on a 1 to 1 basis. And continue to be so until the end of the Mission.

 

Example B: [DBS]Tx_Tip signs up for a Lagg-3 and after RTB, decides that he and [DBS]Airdoc want to fly P-40s which were Undesignated as aircraft within the Mission Signup.
Both P-40's are destroyed.
The P-40 losses would be on a 1 to 1 basis.
 
The Initial aircraft numbers for the Campaign were taken from the yogysoft.de site here:
Planetable .xls Download

 

So basically there is now an option to use additional aircraft as players see fit within the parameters of the specific mission and the Campaign itself. However with this option comes 2 caveats.
1) Some of these aircraft are few in number and could be lost for the duration of the Campaign. Replacement aircraft come at a very high cost in manufactoring.
2) FNBFs has always been about how results in the air dictate a very dynamic ground campaign. Briefings, Mission objectives, and the Missions themselves are created to give each side an equal opportunity for Victory.

 

This topic is of course open for constructive conversation. If you think having a finite amount of aircraft within the campaign is folly then say so.

I can say that the initial numbers themselves as provided by the yogysoft.de Planetable to me represent a good starting point as Mission #1 through Mission #18 have not been tallied within the results.

 

Personally I think this raises the bar for coordination within the mission.
However FNBFs started and will always strive to be an enjoyable and competitive event not only for ourselves at [DBS], but for the many excellent sim pilots who we have had the pleasure to fly with and against. Should this change become a distraction to that purpose. It will of course be rescinded.  

 

Tip

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Pretty impressive Tip :)

i think it's a great idea, because people are encouraged to care even more about their aircraft this way :)

However i have one slight concern. Are people still allowed to swap between sides, how they see fit?

The only danger with this system i see is:

Someone, who flies more often at one side, then switches to the other side, takes aircraft how he sees fit (undesignated aircraft), and wastes them, because he doesn't care about them being available in the future, or not. Quite the opposite, he can harm "the enemy" this way, at least in theory.

Especially aircraft on very low numbers like the La5 or the Macchi could vanish from the campaign very quickly this way.  

Of course i, and i guess all of us regular people in here hope, that stuff like this doesn't happen. But history in gaming shows, that there should be as few as possible "exploits".

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Are undesignated aircraft preset by mission? Or are people allowed to pick about anything, for example a Fw-190?

 

How do people claim the undeisgnated aircrafts slot for themself?

 

Are pilots allowed to switch their prechosen aircraft (the one they reserved for themself) at any time during the mission?

 

Don't know if this is an exiting feauture or not. Might be very difficult to coordinate if people are switching aircraft during the mission.

 

The overall casualty statistics certainly is a good feauture. Way easier to check than 26 individual AARs.

 

PS: I think you got a typo in the Stuka line.

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first of all i think that's an amazing system! i love the additional layer of strategy it adds to the campaign!  :clapping:  :good: 

and second i want to thank Stuka for asking the exact questions i was wondering about  :salute:

Edited by I./JG3_Asgar

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Pretty impressive Tip :)

i think it's a great idea, because people are encouraged to care even more about their aircraft this way :)

However i have one slight concern. Are people still allowed to swap between sides, how they see fit?

The only danger with this system i see is:

Someone, who flies more often at one side, then switches to the other side, takes aircraft how he sees fit (undesignated aircraft), and wastes them, because he doesn't care about them being available in the future, or not. Quite the opposite, he can harm "the enemy" this way, at least in theory.

Especially aircraft on very low numbers like the La5 or the Macchi could vanish from the campaign very quickly this way.  

Of course i, and i guess all of us regular people in here hope, that stuff like this doesn't happen. But history in gaming shows, that there should be as few as possible "exploits".

 

Actually this change will help in deciding the question of switching sides.

Currently this has not been a concern as far as folks gaming the system so to speak due to the quality of those who fly FNBFs...

Additionally with the new BoM aircraft coming online. One hates to limit people from flying those.

However this question has been raised by others and a decision will be made concerning this after further deliberations by ourselves within [DBS] and the Battle-fields crewe.

Tip

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btw. what's the plan for tanks? i saw we don't have them in the sign up anymore. no more player tanks in the future, or are they gonna be usable in the "second life" instead of being a gunner on a team mates plane?

Edited by I./JG3_Asgar

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Are undesignated aircraft preset by mission? Or are people allowed to pick about anything, for example a Fw-190?

 

How do people claim the undeisgnated aircrafts slot for themself?

 

Are pilots allowed to switch their prechosen aircraft (the one they reserved for themself) at any time during the mission?

 

Don't know if this is an exiting feauture or not. Might be very difficult to coordinate if people are switching aircraft during the mission.

 

The overall casualty statistics certainly is a good feauture. Way easier to check than 26 individual AARs.

 

PS: I think you got a typo in the Stuka line.

 

1) Yes undesignated aircraft will be preset... Only a limited number and type of these aircraft will be available per mission. 

2) Pilots may choose these aircraft at anytime. Provided they are still alive following their first sortie and the 30 minute "mulligan period" has expired...

3) Appreciate this and something that will also be closely looked at. Coordinating should be made easier as the only non-designated aircraft which will be available will still be relevant to the Mission objectives as outlined within the briefs.

4) The AAR will still be done as usual with the link to the Spreadsheet now included. Ground movements, including infrastructure destroyed is what I believe will ultimately decide the victor in the Campaign. It's up to the pilots to support. protect, and/or destroy these. 

5) Typo corrected. Thanks.

 

Tip

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btw. what's the plan for tanks? i saw we don't have them in the sign up anymore. no more player tanks in the future, or are they gonna be usable in the "second life" instead of being a gunner on a team mates plane?

 

In the missions where we had tanks and folks drove them. Their objectives were successfully completed. Specific missions for tanks will not always be there within the briefings. However I consider having the option to drive a tank for one's "second life" a good one and a blast to boot. So look for the Tank spawn points to be a regular fixture.

 

Tip

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That sounds interesting. The undesignated aircraft type will be like a jewel due to it will be very easy to run out of them if the pilots don't care so much, I am right?

Luckily we still have enough IL2's.

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That sounds interesting. The undesignated aircraft type will be like a jewel due to it will be very easy to run out of them if the pilots don't care so much, I am right?

Luckily we still have enough IL2's.

 

Definitely one way to look at it peter. I also would like to think it enables the pilots within the mission to work together and call upon a different aircraft to complete a briefed objective or perhaps mission recon has discovered a hereto undisclosed target which needs immediate attention. 

 

In any event there'll be much more work for the Il2s in the coming weeks for certain.

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Actually this change will help in deciding the question of switching sides.

Currently this has not been a concern as far as folks gaming the system so to speak due to the quality of those who fly FNBFs...

Additionally with the new BoM aircraft coming online. One hates to limit people from flying those.

However this question has been raised by others and a decision will be made concerning this after further deliberations by ourselves within [DBS] and the Battle-fields crewe.

Tip

 

I'd myself support the idea, to not be allowed to switch sides. Would make the whole campaign less random, and more immersive if you really have to decide for one side, and then put all your efforts into this side. Like already explained, when you are just randomly flying both sides, i think there is not much to care about, be it aircrafts to survive, or the mission goals in general to be achieved. 

Most people i see are already flying one side, mostly even the same aircraft, think this is fine, and realistic.

I am probably a bad example now, switching sides the next mission, but i can only participate in a few more (4-5) FNBFs, before the summer half-season of football continues, and i won't be able to participate anymore at that particular day/time. So i wanted to experience, how that whole campaign feels, when on the Russian side. 

If this wouldn't have been allowed, meaning, if i'd only be allowed to continue on the German side, it wouldn't have been a problem for me.

I mean it's still early days for this campaign, but i think when looking to the future, fixed side is a good choice towards being more serious, and come closer to something like the SeoW.

I guess we will all wait and see, what the outcome is within your squadrons decision making for the future way of this campaign :)

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I think the overall idea is awesome, but would like to retain the ability to switch sides to some point.

 

Because most gents here are part of a squadron which only flies one side anyway, but some are not or are part of a squadron that is not limited to fly one side only.

 

For myself i absolutly love the 190 and would be totally destroyed, if we are able to fly it at some point  and i can't due to the fact that i chose to help the vvs out.

 

Because it's not really to say it like this............ easy for them to be honest.

 

Cheers J

Edited by Jizzo

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I'm curious, where will replacement aircraft come from, and in what numbers?

Production facilities maybe, hidden far behind the front lines, giving each side the opportunity to mount recognisance missions to find them and either direct their bomber force to destroy them,

or take pictures for use in the next weeks brief?

Possibly a production facility that has 50% damage could only produce 50% of a replacement aircraft type made at that particular factory, making these a high priority to find and destroy?

If the factories whereabouts are only known to the individual who makes the mission, (don't show up on the map) and not the teams, there would be no advantage gained by people who wished to swap sides to level the numbers.

I would certainly limit fighter pilots to two (maybe 3) aircraft, (or maybe one main fighter and a lesser replacement) Thus making it worth while to stay alive, RTB  re-arm and re-fuel.

Unlimited numbers of bombers of course, if your mad enough to fly them, you should be allowed as many as you can get your hands on!! :lol:

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If anyone is interested, how to work out the Historically available aircraft as a percentage,

and represent it in the Pilot seats available at the start of the game.

 

Figures taken from yogysoft.de exel sheet mentioned above.

 

Lagg3    46

Yak 1     52

Mig 3     25

La 5       0

P40 E    30

Pe 2       3

I 16        22

IL 2        35*

 

Total      213                 *wasn't sure about the IL2 so I used the Field mod version for this example.

 

 

Use the equation AxB/C=D 

Where:

A= The No of that type of plane available.

B= No of pilot seats available in game (normally 28 per side)

C= Total No of planes Historically available (in this case 213)

D= Historical percentage of seats available at the start of a mission of that type of aircraft.

 

Example

Lagg 3             46x28/213=6                (6)

Yak 1               52x28/213=6.8*           (7)

Mig 3                                  3.2*            (3)

La 5                                    0                (0)

P40 E                                 3.9*            (4)

Pe 2                                    0.3*           (0)

I 16                                     2.8*            (3)

IL2                                      4.6*            (5)

Total                                   27.6           (28 seats available)         *Round up or down as needed.   

 

 

Strictly for those who want it as Historically accurate as possible. 

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schuck: what is the numbers for german side? :)

 

(just for comparison since this is (i would say) mainly a game between two 'equal' sides panning out)

Edited by Oggi

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sounds like clubbing baby seals for the german side :P but who does not like to do that in a game?

 

Historically: what was the pilot k/d ratio for germans:? 10 to 1? ;)

I love realistic stuff. but let us aim to make a separate timeline that is equal for both parties at this timeline and let pilots of both sides enjoy themselves.

 

Please do not aim to make this as imbalanced as it was in the original war. :)

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sounds like clubbing baby seals for the german side :P but who does not like to do that in a game?

 

Historically: what was the pilot k/d ratio for germans:? 10 to 1? ;)

I love realistic stuff. but let us aim to make a separate timeline that is equal for both parties at this timeline and let pilots of both sides enjoy themselves.

 

Please do not aim to make this as imbalanced as it was in the original war. :)

 

K/D in total aircraft losses (including ground bombing and Flak)  was 10:1 in summer 42, and 2,8:1 in January 43.

However if you look at the pure fighter-fighter K/D in air combat, the numbers are much more extreme in favour of the Germans. I have a book about all German JG's and their actions in the eastern front, and one typical passage reads like that: "II./JG*[insert number]* shot down 360 aicraft in November 42. [...] however it didn't come without losses. Leutnant x and Hauptmann y were shot down, and died [...]. No kidding. While you read about an ridiculous amount of enemy planes shot down every month (crossreferenced with Russian sources), they list every single German pilot who died..tells enough i would say. 

However there have been a few fighting squadrons for the Russians, who also had positive K/D (mostly shot bombers/ground attackers) in a certain timeframe. So if we say, the FNBF campaign draws the picture of the most successful Soviet squadrons, i think we get a realistic picture :)

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        Considering that FNBFs was never intended to be 100% historical. And while I appreciate the data and numbers, don't look for a strick adherance to historical numbers of aircraft, pilots etc... So perhaps that is a good description that we are representing the best case scenario with regards to VVS aircraft and Squadrons. However I think the same may be true for the Axis side as well though.

        The Campaign aspect of it and losses so far in aircraft and ground forces have basically represented a closer tie to the Battle of Kursk than Stalingrad in any event. There have been continuous vehicle, rail and tank movements along with large ground battles going on whilst pilots duked it out above. Attacking tactical and strategic targets. Most often directly in support of these movements. The Battles within this Campaign for Zahorov, Aksenovsky and Lipovsky were prime examples of this.

        I can say that when the VVS/64th Army wrenched control of Aksenovsky the Campaign sat poised for Victory by the VVS. Only last minute action by Axis pilots within several of the subsequent missions was this averted. To me this is what is so dynamic and fun about FNBFs. The actions by the pilots do dictate what is happening on the ground. No parser made for this sim can register what the ground forces are doing. And the logs that register what players have destroyed are not 100% accurate nor do they take into account what constitutes actually destroying an Ammo_Bunker per say. That is where the HUD messages come in along with the excellent AAR pictures and Vids that you folks provide. Not to mention the awesome skins btw. So in taking this all into consideration are we truly achieving a dynamic campaign within the confinds of this sim.

 

As previously mentioned here is what these Messages mean along with some other info.

 

Hud Messages:

Blue Top Center: For your side only. Recon on enemy movements in the air and on the ground as well as your positions that are being attacked by the enemy. Each side should take note of these messages.
Red Top Center: For both sides. This is what has been, or is being destroyed and also basically informs me of which ground forces are moving and where as well as which aircraft are attacking what and where.
Blue Top Right: This will be basically for myself only and doesn't stay up on the screen for as long as the others. Provides info on several different things which help with accurately understanding what, where, when, why and how.

 

On the subject of Aircraft numbers. Designated and Un-Designated aircraft:

This will stay on as a permament fixture for the duration of the Campaign. Although Un-Designated aircraft are difficult to corrolate when viewing the logs for AAR purposes, this worked well last mission as Axis pilots were able to use Un-Designated Aircraft based at a closer location to the front in support of their own 14th PzD armor. Destroying enough of the approaching enemy armor that their own armor and anti-tank defenses were able to thwart the 64th Army advance. 

 

On the subject of Runway Destruction:

Runway destruction is a new addition to the Campaign. As we saw in the last AAR that two runways are now inoperable due to air attacks. It will take a concentrated effort of more that one or two sorties to damage an airfield sufficiently and make it inoperable or disable it completely. Just as it took a concentrated effort of at least 4 large sorties, probably more, in addition to hard fought ground advances by Panzers, then T-34s, then Panzers again to finally disable and capture the supply airbase at Zahorov as well as the operational airbase at Lipovsky for that matter.
Runway sections that are damaged show up on the HUD messages. This is not meant to be easy. After a certain number of these Sections are destroyed then the Airfield will be disabled. However airfield attacks will always be taken into consideration whether a Runway has been damaged or not. This affects their Capacity.

 

Certain to add to this as we move forward but I believe this addresses several things that folks have asked about.

Tip

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Amazing stuff Tx_Tip....thanks for all your hard work...

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Update. Pilots Stats added to Campaign:

 

Campaign Aircraft Stats

Pilot Stats*

 

In an effort to enhance the dynamic nature of FNBFs and aid in accurately depicting ground movements and positions as a result of pilot actions in the air. The overall Campaign Stats are now being taken from correlating the results as shown in the IL2 Stats program along with the usual Chat_Log which shows who did what and to a certain extent, where, within the mission.

Additionally pilot Pictures, Videos and AARs have always contributed greatly to the accuracy of this. Especially in the where aspect of putting it all together.

 

With regards to the IL2 Stats Program:

Please do not confuse Aircraft Data, such as "crashed" within the sorties tab in the program, with what aircraft are being counted as lost for the Actual Campaign Stats.
Likewise do not confuse the Ground Objects count within the program with what was destroyed in full for Campaign purposes.

*Also please note that there are No Points shown within the IL2 Stats. Nor will there ever be for FNBFs. Having good competitive fun and dictating what happens on the ground by what happens in the air is what FNBFs is all about.

 

Thanks,

Tip

Edited by [DBS]Tx_Tip
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Very pleased to see the stats implemented, and without scores! :cool:

I just like to keep track of my virtual pilots, and taking a look at the sorties logs sometimes reveals things you hadn't realised during the mission.

 

Thanks!

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