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IL-2 STURMOVIK : BATTLE OF KUBAN

Battle for the Kuban  

138 members have voted

  1. 1. This would make a great follow on expansion

    • Yes
      45
    • Yes however I have suggestiosn for s different plane set
      28
    • Maybe after a different theatre or war
      55
    • No
      10


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IL-2 Sturmovik : Battle of Kuban

 

Germany

  • Bf-109G-6 A/S with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Ju-88C-6  with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Fw-190A-5 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Fw-190F-8 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Bf-110G-2 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Hs-123-A1
  • Me-410A-1 with all Umrüst-Bausätze upgrades
  • Hs-129B-3 - Special A/C set

 

Soviet Union

  • La-5FN
  • P-39L-2- Special A/C set
  • Spitfire Mk.Vb
  • Tu-2
  • IL-4
  • P-47D-10
  • A-20G-1
  • IL-2 Type 3M
Edited by II./ZG1=SPEKTRE76
  • Upvote 4

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It feels a little scattered, though the concept is good. If to narrow it down to the BoS/M 10 aircraft format, I would remove the 190F-8, the 109G-14 and the 410 for the Germans, and the MiG-3-34, Pe-8 and the 37mm-armed LaGG-3.

 

Then I would replace the Tu-2 for the Il-4 (torpedoes baby!), the Pe-3 for the P-39 and the Il-2 with the 37mm guns for a regular early two seater. Perhaps I would even advocate to swap that Yak-7 for the I-153 since it soldiered until the beginning of 1942.

 

The rest you can borrow from BoS and BoM, and then you have a full 1942 to the beginning of 1943 campaign.

 

Edit: Just to elaborate, I think the plane set you suggested is more fit for 1944 than 1942-1943. The Crimea operation for example fits well here, or even an Operation Bagration. The I-153 and the Hs-123 could be changed for a Spitfire and a IAR 81 for example, leaving those two for a 1941/early 1942 campaign though.

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell
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Good set Manu, the Do-217 would fit nicely there :)

 

Would that set be for what part of 1943 though? Because after summer most units were fielding the P-39N, while between spring and summer the P-39D was more common. I see no Il-2 made it to the list as well - this is quite possible because many regiments flew the single-seat Il-2s deep into 1943 so the BoS one works just fine, but isn't two medium bombers overkill?

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The cool thing about the Caucasus scenario is that it was a battle fought all the way from 1942 into 1944. There's just so much room for different scenarios, and from these forums at least everybody seems to want it :)

 

Also, another good thing about it is that units were fielding older models all the way into mid-late 1943 so within that timespan you can have virtually all the BoM and BoS aircraft flying even into 1944 (like our late-series Yak-1 for example with 812 IAP, 4th most successful regiment in the war, and the BoS La-5).

 

A couple of notes on the (rather cool) plane set Klaus, did the Me-410 and Tu-2 actually fight in the October 1943 battles over Kuban? I know the Tu-2 only appeared in numbers in January 1944, and I would risk a guess the -410 was busy fighting the Americans and Brits but I'm not too versed into those theatres. The Yer-2 was a cool design but its production run was really small, and the MiG-3 had less than 40 airframes fitted with the AM-38, all on the field, and the otherwise excellent combination was buried by overheating and supply issues. The LaGG-3's final incarnation - a beast by all means, and an awesome aircraft to surprise any overconfident jock who will think 'oh, it's just a LaGG' - started production in Autumn 1943, not sure how many were flying at the front. I don't know if the B-25 was there either, but the Il-4 surely was (as was the A-20).

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Kuban would be around October 1943.

-snip-

 

 

Kuban was not "around October 1943", Kuban was like Stalingrad, Battles went on in that area for a long time, more then a year. 

Starting end of January 43 with battles in and around Krasnodar, so pretty much in the moment our Stalingrad scenario ends. So planes would be pretty much the same here. Ending October 1943, when the Germans went over the Strait of Kertsch (where the battles went on).

From your plane list:

Me410 probably not representative, have never heard about a Me410 in Kuban.

Ju88-P variants..such low production number, definitely not representative. If, then only as "unlock" like the guns for the Stuka in BoS

Mig3-AM38. Only a prototyp. Has no place in Kuban (or any other realistic campaign)

no Lagg3-66, like Lucas already stated.

Also no Yer-2 in Kuban, if we wanna keep it realistic.

P39 rather D and K versions...N, M and Q have been used from end 43 until the war finished. But not in Kuban. P40E would still fit though.

Tu-2 wasn't used in Kuban. Apart from 80 pre production versions, the Tu-2 was not in combat before 1944.

B-25 maybe possible, A20 "Boston" was used much more in Kuban though

 

 

Good set Manu, the Do-217 would fit nicely there :)

 

Would that set be for what part of 1943 though? Because after summer most units were fielding the P-39N, while between spring and summer the P-39D was more common. I see no Il-2 made it to the list as well - this is quite possible because many regiments flew the single-seat Il-2s deep into 1943 so the BoS one works just fine, but isn't two medium bombers overkill?

No P39N over Kuban mate, they only came to the southern front in November 43. Timeframe would be February-October 43.

Il2, yes we already have 2, with possible tail gunner, so no need for third one, i think :) I'd rather see the Boston as "fast attack aircraft", compared to the Bf110 (of course heavier, but can still be used the same way), and the IL-4 more a normal regular medium bomber. 

 

 

 

Manu thank you so much I have been looking for something like that forever!
 

I guess so, because a bunch of the aircraft of your list have never been used in Kuban. In addition, the most imporant aircraft from the whole Kuban campaign, the one who got famous via it, Kobra, is missing.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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Med please introducing Hurricane Spitfire Beaufighter.

Luftwaffe planes are already here. Maybe we need Hs 129and some new variants of FW 190 Bf 109 and 110.

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Hs-129B-3 - Special A/C set

 

Late 1944 plane 

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My personal Aircraftset would center on the last stages of the Battle for the Cuban Bridgehead in early October 1943, and into the winter of 1943/44. The G-14 and F-8 came much later. The early stuff fits the other theaters much, much better as additional content RoF style.

 

My new and improved list: 

 

Germans

 

Bf109G-4 with full emergency power (1.42 ata at 2800rpm) released and late model landing gear. Otherwise same as the BoS G-2. Glass Headest as standard. 

Bf109G-6, as above but with Mg131 instead of Mg17, optional Mk108, optional Erla-Haube, optional Wfr. Gr 21 rockets. 

Fw190A-5

Fw190F-3, has Mg17 as cowling guns, based on A-5

 

(Me-410, was here, but is no longer)

Bf110G

 

Ju-87D-5

Hs129 (it's stupid though, no big male-donkey cannons, just half a Ju-87G) (new?)

 

Ju-88A-4 and C-6 Variants

He-111 H-16 with lots of Mg131s and MG81Zs

 

probable

IAR 81? (new)

Fw189? (new)

 

absolutely necessary

Ju-52

 

Russians

 

La-5F

LaGG-3 seria 42 (as far as I know sasme as 66, just without retractable tailwheel, 12 kph slower, but still GREAT))

Yak-9D and T (AWSUMA!) (not really all that new)

Yak-1B improved (mouthwatering)

MiG-3 with AM-38 (As far as I know around 70 were converted with simple Il-2 swaps, someone find the original source please)

 

P-39D or K (new)

(P-40M as a very big maybe)

Spitfire Mk.Vb with 57th GIAP (new)

 

Il-2M (Swept WUNGS, go MACH 3)

Pe-2

 

 

Any one of these will do the Job, I favor the Yer-2 for purely personal reasons. (new)

 

(Tu-2 is too late, gone for now, same as Me-410, so nothing really lost or gained)

A-20 Havoc

Il-4

B-25

Yer-2 (I really just want a Diesel Airplane, I know it's silly)

 

All of these are a must however. 

Po-2? (new)

Li-2 (new) 

 

I count 5 necessary and 3 probable new additions. 

 

 

Just as a final statement: The less effort the Devs have to spend on NEW and SHINY Stuff, more money can be spent on improving GAME ENGINE PERFORMANCE, while a new theater should just serve as a money grab to get the funds for that.

 

Wanting all new aircraft sets seems childish to me at this point. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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Hs129 (it's stupid though, no big male-donkey cannons, just half a Ju-87G) (new?)

 

Although offtopic, the Hs-129 has different (not less) combat value than the Stuka. First of it was primarily designed as a low altitude attack aircraft ("Schlachtflugzeug"). Unliek the Stuka it feautred formideable cockpit, engine and fuel tank armour but was also heavy and less manouvreable.

 

Second armamrent wise it lacked nothign of firepower the Stuka had. It could mount various gunpods (from MG17 to 20mm, Mk.103 with anti tank ammo (100 shots) and the very same Bk.3,7 as the Stuka (12 shots). It also has the benefit of having a central fuselage mounted cannnon means you don't have to worry about horizontal conversion nor having to fire more shots at once than nessecary to take the target out.

 

The primary thing, which makes the Hs-129 significantly worse in comarison to the Stuka, is the lack of rear gunner protection. Even performence wise both aircraft played in the same ballpark.

 

Not taking into account that later models of the Hs-129 were fitted with very effective anti tank hollowcharges and even auto triggered hollow charge dispenser systems. Overall, in it's depicted role, it certainly was a superiour aircraft.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka
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Could be the last one theatre of Russian serie in ww2...but after that we need MOT,Western Front 1944-45 and Pacific

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Could be the last one theatre of Russian serie in ww2...but after that we need MOT,Western Front 1944-45 and Pacific

No. Battle for Berlin. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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I'd be a little disappointed if another eastern frnt scenario arrived (although it seems very reasonable form a developer perspective) and would only be interested in it, if it includes an interesting planeset. I'm very much looking forward to the Hs-129 for example but am less exited over more Fw-190 and Yak modifications (I know many think differently).

 

BoM was an obvious choice because they oculd reuse already existing assets for a speedup development (which they stated was their primary goal after BoS release) so I respect that choice. The next theatre however is not going to benefit from this (well unless it's BoB) so there're plenty of realistic possebilities.

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I'd be a little disappointed if another eastern frnt scenario arrived (although it seems very reasonable form a developer perspective) and would only be interested in it, if it includes an interesting planeset. I'm very much looking forward to the Hs-129 for example but am less exited over more Fw-190 and Yak modifications (I know many think differently).

 

BoM was an obvious choice because they oculd reuse already existing assets for a speedup development (which they stated was their primary goal after BoS release) so I respect that choice. The next theatre however is not going to benefit from this (well unless it's BoB) so there're plenty of realistic possibilities.

The MTO, if done correctly means carnage for the Brits, if the Germs get F-4s and G-2s, while the brits have to slug along in Spit Vs and Hurries. 

 

The late western front will attract the worst kind of people imaginable: P-51 fans. This would ruin the game and the community, so NO.

 

The  Pacific could be interesting before the introduction of the F6F and F4U, or after Ki-44, Ki-84, and the improved naval fighters came in. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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No P39N over Kuban mate, they only came to the southern front in November 43. Timeframe would be February-October 43.

 

Not quite actually, the transition there was interesting. From Michal Sekula:

 

16 giap used already M and N versions, when older D-2, K-1 and L-1 came from 84 iap. Two weeks ago, on May 15, 1943 six P-39N came to 16 giap, including Pokryshkin's 29004.

 

P-39N-0, Serial No. 29004, Board no. 100.

 

This plane was delivered to 16 GIAP on 15-May-1943, only 3 weeks after P-39D-2 S/N: 138520 and month plus something after P-39K-1, S/N: 24421.

 

In mid May 1943 came the first N-0 versions to 16 giap, Pokryshkin's 29004 "Sotka" among them. Rechkalov was awarded his first HSU on May 23rd, 1943 for 12 personal and 2 shared victories.

 

The P-39N was sort of drip-fed into most units, being given to the most experienced pilots while the rest was handed down the older models the aces and commanders used to fly. It's hard to choose one that is fully representative because indeed between Spring and Summer the earlier variants were present (D to M), while from Summer until Winter the balance started shifting towards the P-39N. Whichever they chose will fit nicely in the time frame, I believe.

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The P-39N was sort of drip-fed into most units, being given to the most experienced pilots while the rest was handed down the older models the aces and commanders used to fly. It's hard to choose one that is fully representative because indeed between Spring and Summer the earlier variants were present (D to M), while from Summer until Winter the balance started shifting towards the P-39N. Whichever they chose will fit nicely in the time frame, I believe.

Well, what type would you deem representative in the scenario? What would fit balancewise as well?

Do you have an overview or table for all the P-39 types?

 

I know they differ in mostly wing armament, engine power, wing spans and armor and maybe rudder size and subsequently different Performance in Top Speed, Climb and Spin/Stall Behaviour especially for the Cobras. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

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The thing is, in 1943 there was no predominant variant that lasted throughout the year. P-39D to M variants were flown from Spring until the very end of the year, and P-39N variants were flown from Summer until the end of the war. Both would be correct here, and if to think of the big picture both early and late variants can be ported to other theatres (Pacific, Far East, Mediterranean, the rest of the Eastern Front, etc.) I would definitely be interested in flying any of the multitude of early variants, but the thought of the good old P-39N is also exciting. In terms of how different variants match-up against the Bf-109G-6 and Fw-190A-5, I think most of them should perform similarly, but with chronological increases in performance and individual variant quirks. The very first P-39D-1 might struggle more since its engine was weaker than the rest, but from then on bit by bit modifications were added that ultimately spawned the P-39N.

 

Wikipedia has a more or less comprehensive description of P-39 variants actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra#Variants

 

As a bonus, here's the TP-39Q. Some WW2 aircraft just shouldn't become two-seaters :biggrin:

 

us3.jpg

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As luke mention HS-129B3 was the 75mm PAK 40 rarely used at 1944, at Kuban time still B2 with MK-101 is flying. MK-103 seem's widely action in Kursk Operation.

 

And Me-410 really? The Me-410 started as initial Production variant Me-210 to replace the BF-110, but it was so bad to fly with high risk of stalling they skip the Production, didn't appear before 1944 in big relative numbers for Air defence over Germany.

Edited by 9./JG27MAD-MM

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The thing is, in 1943 there was no predominant variant that lasted throughout the year. P-39D to M variants were flown from Spring until the very end of the year, and P-39N variants were flown from Summer until the end of the war. Both would be correct here, and if to think of the big picture both early and late variants can be ported to other theatres (Pacific, Far East, Mediterranean, the rest of the Eastern Front, etc.) I would definitely be interested in flying any of the multitude of early variants, but the thought of the good old P-39N is also exciting. In terms of how different variants match-up against the Bf-109G-6 and Fw-190A-5, I think most of them should perform similarly, but with chronological increases in performance and individual variant quirks. The very first P-39D-1 might struggle more since its engine was weaker than the rest, but from then on bit by bit modifications were added that ultimately spawned the P-39N.

 

Wikipedia has a more or less comprehensive description of P-39 variants actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-39_Airacobra#Variants

 

As a bonus, here's the TP-39Q. Some WW2 aircraft just shouldn't become two-seaters :biggrin:

 

us3.jpg

 

Gosh, that aircraft is ugly.

In "Osprey's Aircraft of the Aces: Aces of the P39" chapter "Kuban", they were solely talking about D and K versions of the Cobra. Every kill, every description, every picture (there are a lot) that have been made in Kuban, have been without any exception D and K. The very first M,N,Q Version this whole book is about, is a P39-Q of 19GIAP, used in Shongui (Finnish border) in late 43. In this book there is no account of a M,N,Q Kobra in Black sea/Caucasian action before 1944..i can make copies of the book, in case you are interested :)

P39 M/N/Q arrived at 26 ZAP in November 43,while 25 ZAP kept their D/K models. no mention when they have been first used in battle (they had to go through maintenance and conversion first)

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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I think all sources are a little scattered, which explains the discrepancies :) But until Autumn I agree the earlier variants were common but from then on the P-39N was more present. As mentioned before, the P-39Ns that made Pokryshkin and Rechkalov famous were delivered in May 1943, and Pokryshkin received his second Sotka (100) in August after the first was smashed in a collision with an Il-2.

 

Either will be interesting, so if they go ahead with Kuban I'm a happy camper :biggrin:

 

225 IAP, July 1943:

 

106.jpg

 

One from 21 GIAP, summer 1943:

 

pic_104.jpg

 

Romanenko's article mentions units equipped with the early P-39s transitioned to later versions in August for example: http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/

 

Another source (in Russian) mentioning 28 GIAP received P-39N and P-39Q aircraft in August 1943: http://profilib.com/chtenie/148657/s-ivanov-boevoe-primenenie-r-39-airacobra-19.php

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Okay Lucas, i guess the sources really don't fit together very well ;)

I don't mind to much as well, to be honest. The difference in performance isn't that big, underwing cannons have been removed by the Russians anyway, so they are pretty similar :)

as long as we get any version of this plane, i am happy. Sexiest inline engine fighter ever :) i guess if Kuban is really coming, you won't see me to much on the Axis side anymore (Kobra, 5F  :blush: )

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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Indeed, as long as they make ANY of them :) One of the things I look forward to the most is watching a large-number MP engagement once it's eventually released just see how many people will stall out and spin in the average furball :fly:

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Absolutely. In addition, there should be a 70% death probability for a bailout. Or even better - physical properly computed bailout - wouldn't that be nice..people trying all sorts of manouvers before bailout, to prevent hitting the tail unit  :biggrin:

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The late western front will attract the worst kind of people imaginable: P-51 fans. This would ruin the game and the community, so NO.

 

And this is about the worst type of trolling imaginable.  

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Absolutely. In addition, there should be a 70% death probability for a bailout. Or even better - physical properly computed bailout - wouldn't that be nice..people trying all sorts of manouvers before bailout, to prevent hitting the tail unit  :biggrin:

 

I thought the P-39 wasn't that terrible to bail out of and Glinka was just unlucky. There's that way-too-often repeated quote about pushing the door, rolling out, etc, etc, and many Soviet pilots worth their salt have had to bail out at least once and made it successfully. In that video Chuck_Owl uploaded with 16 GIAP they tell of Gulyaev I think who spun out and bailed just fine, and there's a funny story of a pilot who entered a spin during a training mission, bailed out low. They assumed they died, the aircraft smashed flat into a swamp and that was that. A day or two later the squad mates were carrying a symbolic casket with his belongings when a very disgruntled man coming out of the woods. "Excuse me, guys", the man asks, "who is the burial for?" A man replied "this is the funeral of pilot Lieutenant Ivanov*." The man was shocked - "but it cannot be!" They asked him why. "Because I am Lieutenant Ivanov!" :biggrin:

 

In general bailout physics would be interesting to have at some point when there is some room to spare in the CPU calculations.That would force people to actually think the procedure through and make sure they position the aircraft properly instead of smashing the button with no thought or consequence.

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I know, right? P-51 guys are just the worst. 

 

When you stop blanket-stereotyping people, we can continue this conversation. 

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Luke, it's a joke - P-51 fans are just as pleasant as Luftwaffles, Crazy Ivans, Anime Zeroboys and whatever we call silly Spitfire pilots :)

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That P-39 would be a good one to have. I know I'd fly it. I would die if got the Bf-110G-2 with all the ground pounding goodies.

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Luke, it's a joke - P-51 fans are just as pleasant as Luftwaffles, Crazy Ivans, Anime Zeroboys and whatever we call silly Spitfire pilots :)

I'd disagree. Spit Tommies are actually amongst the most pleasant people I know, more pleasant than Messer-Krauts, like me, anywhere I met them. I really like arguing with them, and we seldomly derail into hatred and abuse. 

 

The Yako- and Laggo-Iwans are on one level in pleasantness with the Messer-Krauts and it again is a very nice talk to be had (I have gained enormous respect for russian aircraft these past years)

 

The two worst groups I have experienced so far however are the Jerry-Focks and P-51 Exceptionalists especially in a Flight Sim Environment. 

They suck as pilots and claim everything else is overpowered if they can't beat it it in a low and slow turnfight. 

 

Generally they are convinced that their respective aircraft could outturn much lighter Spits and 109s, Outclimb and Outroll them, are faster across the board and have impregnable armor and they won't be argued with. It's almost religious in many ways. 

 

I can't bear the talk of "Luhminarr Flo' Wings" and "Radial Engine Super-Shields" anymore. These people are supremacists and they have grouped around quite decent fighter types and ruined them for everybody else.

 

I seriously believe that the Star Wars prequels were made by and for P-51 guys. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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I'd disagree. Spit Tommies are actually amongst the most pleasant people I know, more pleasant than Messer-Krauts, like me, anywhere I met them. I really like arguing with them, and we seldomly derail into hatred and abuse. 

 

The Yako- and Laggo-Iwans are on one level in pleasantness with the Messer-Krauts and it again is a very nice talk to be had (I have gained enormous respect for russian aircraft these past years)

 

The two worst groups I have experienced so far however are the Jerry-Focks and P-51 Exceptionalists especially in a Flight Sim Environment. 

They suck as pilots and claim everything else is overpowered if they can't beat it it in a low and slow turnfight. 

 

Generally they are convinced that their respective aircraft could outturn much lighter Spits and 109s, Outclimb and Outroll them, are faster across the board and have impregnable armor and they won't be argued with. It's almost religious in many ways. 

 

I can't bear the talk of "Luhminarr Flo' Wings" and "Radial Engine Super-Shields" anymore. These people are supremacists and they have grouped around quite decent fighter types and ruined them for everybody else.

 

I seriously believe that the Star Wars prequels were made by and for P-51 guys. 

 

Off topic ON

 

Or we can also speak about 109 fanboys if you want, the worst by far, and the most ignorant for the vast majority of them.

 

You know, those who love distort Hartmann's quotes for their defense, those who love to say [Edited] like "ololz 109 was the principal Luftwaffe fighter during the whole war for a reason xddd", or also, those who say nothing when the roll rate of their favorite plane is massively OP as it is the case currently in BoS,...

 

Those who cry "Bf 109 b3sT FiGHt3R" but who would have chosen a Fw 190 if they had had the occasion to try both planes, back in 1942.  :P

 

Off topic OFF

Edited by Bearcat
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All this usually comes from wannabe Hartmans/Pokryshins and so on. I never understood the fanboy wars, and after 15 years of seeing same faces arguing same things this really became boring. One side brings Chuck Yeager, other calls for  Gunther Rall. Than people turn into pilots flying restored machines, one side brings Skip Holm, the other someone else. Than 109 fans bring that Finnish Aces and their quotes. And than it turns into one big spiral of never ending arguments and counter-arguments. 

There is too much bias, too much national pride in something that is nothing more than entertainment. People should just enjoy it. Not turn it into other war.

 

About the Kuban, I'm with 5tuka, eastern front can be interesting but its time to move on. 

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Off topic ON

 

Or we can also speak about 109 fanboys if you want, the worst by far, and the most ignorant for the vast majority of them.

 

You know, those who love distort Hartmann's quotes for their defense, those who love to say b*llsh*t like "ololz 109 was the principal Luftwaffe fighter during the whole war for a reason xddd", or also, those who say nothing when the roll rate of their favorite plane is massively OP as it is the case currently in BoS,...

 

Those who cry "Bf 109 b3sT FiGHt3R" but who would have chosen a Fw 190 if they had had the occasion to try both planes, back in 1942.  :P

 

Off topic OFF

Amen brother! :D

 

Realy though, I don't want to treat anyone like I am treated. I am a P-51 fan and I love my plane for what it is. A fast and maneuvrable airplane that can fly 8h of a mission and do variety of tasks.

 

After many years of virtual flying, I can say with 100% of certainty that the most hate towards me and other fans of USAAF equipment came from 109 guys. I liked the plane, now I don't want to touch it, because of the hate and arogance that I associate with those people.

 

I won't lie, there are P-51 fans who claim that "is da best fighta of WW2, because MURICA" But they usually don't know much about the airplane, and are ignorant, never read a single article about its performace. While all 109 guys are devoted to their one true love and are willing to mock others for finding other planes superior in any area.

 

P-51 is a capable dogfighter if flown right.

 

 

-----------------

Thefore I would rather see 1943-44 period of Western Front. With P-51B and D same P47C and D variants, some Spitfires and some 109G6-G14 and Fw190A6-8 :)

Edited by =LD=Solty

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I agree. It's good to see someone with sense. I'm an American and I also love the P-51 and USAAF planes. It's just those guys who have that Murica attitude I can't stand listening to. They only believe in whatever propaganda that aligns with their attitude. The battle of Stalingrad was the single bloodiest battle in human history but to hear some people talk you would think it was nothing compared to D Day.

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Yaks in the air. Sorry, just couldnt really stop myself.

Not in that picture.It's Russian MTO ;)

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