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Let's be honest about BosBoM for once

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There seems to be reasonable efforts to remain levelheaded and noninflammatory by MOST posters here. I don't know that there's much left to say on the topic, but if there is, please keep the comments in the spirit of the OP's post.

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Something like this for a server side setting, MrStick?

 

Thanks for that.  That would give total control and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

My original thought was one selection in the Flight Interface menu for Ingame Messages for Technical Instrument Only which would include all the Blues icons, anything with a Green icon (along with other corresponding colors), and the Engine Boost icon.

 

 

 

Oops, sorry FlatSpinMan.  Will cease and desist.

Edited by MrStick

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This topic remind me of all the 109 jockeys I have shot down from my gunner position . That yell sniper gunners. It is like if you cannot get your kills handed to you it is wrong.

But still you expect people to fly as living targets and not having the same fun. 

As Sokoi said it is a game, some balance are needed and it is not so that red sits with the best planes

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Balance is not acchieved by tweaking FMs and I don't even think FMs in BoS / BoM are balanced purposely, even though some aspects of them may lead to this very easy to believe conclusion.

 

In some way devs do apply balance by for example fitting german aircrafts with weaker engines (Bf-110) and russian ones with more powerfull (Yak, Lagg, Mig, Pe-2) ones than commonly deployed by the time. That's balance in design, not FM, and (to some point) exceptable.

 

FM issues, no matter to which aircraft from which side they apply or if they're performence-, handling- or basic physicly related, has to be treated technicly, not as a gameplay feauture.

 

If people weren't totally dugged in competition and their lovely statistics such discussions wouldn't even evolve.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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In some way devs do apply balance by for example fitting german aircrafts with weaker engines (Bf-110) and russian ones with more powerfull (Yak, Lagg, Mig, Pe-2) ones than commonly deployed by the time. That's balance in design, not FM, and (to some point) exceptable.

Care to explain what you mean by Russian planes being fitted with uncommon engines?

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I noticed that putting the yak in a skid with full rudder

bleeds almost no speed. Is this going to be addresse?

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Care to explain what you mean by Russian planes being fitted with uncommon engines?

That's an old story really and you should know it. At the tine of the BoS the russians deployed more older Yak and Lagg models than feautured in BoS, so they're not quite representative for the whole battle.

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At the tine of the BoS the russians deployed more older Yak and Lagg models than feautured in BoS, so they're not quite representative for the whole battle.

 

(Citation Needed)

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Yak-1 with M-105PF engine started operating in July 1942 (http://wunderwafe.ru/Magazine/AirWar/32/06.htm), LaGG-3 with M-105PF started operating in June-July 1942. Perhaps not representative of the very early summer battles but by all means what saw the most service overall. They consulted Mikoyan on it who was flying with 32 GIAP (then still 434 IAP under Ivan Kleshchev) since summer over Stalingrad, on both Yak-1 and Yak-7, both equipped with the M-105PF from July-August onwards.

 

This regiment's history is widely available and is demonstrative of what most squadrons were flying.

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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Seems that Yak7, Yak 9 and improved Yak1b which were all present at Stalingrad have been left out...

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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When looking the planes in BoS and these discussions it is clear that apparently Germans were pretty stupid. They made a very bad job designing the Fw-190 because it is clearly inferior compared to the Bf-109. Why the hell did they do that?  :rolleyes:

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The Germans must have been pretty stupid, using the 'best' fighter pretty much solely as a ground attack aircraft, when they clearly should have used its uber performance to sweep the skies of the VVS   :biggrin:

 

(humour)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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The Germans must have been pretty stupid, using the 'best' fighter pretty much solely as a ground attack aircraft, when they clearly should have used its uber performance to sweep the skies of the VVS :biggrin:

 

(humour)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

That's

a) not true and

b) no other German aircraft was better suited as a fighter bomber than the Fw190.

 

If an excellent fighter aircraft also was the best available fighter bomber, it doesn't diminish it's qualities as a fighter in the fighter configuration.

Edited by JtD
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And I did not said anything about uber so please, don`t start with that. 

 

All I said is that it is pretty stupid to produce a fighter which performs so badly against it`s predecessor. Just using common sense, recommendable for everyone for once in a while.

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Did you not see the big smiley and (humour) tag

 

The FW 190 was undoubtedly an astounding all round aircraft, with many operational advantages over a similar time-frame 109, unfortunately its reputation gained from a few weeks of notoriety in France has led its legend to be  larger than life and some of its foibles to be ignored

 

well known and acknowledged poor performance between 5000-9000ft (operationally a critical area on Eastern front) is often glossed over

 

Why does every thread have to degenerate to FW190  discussion

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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The Fw-190 was not inferiour to the 109 in any way. You can't even compare them on equal terms because the 190 was not meant to perform like the 109 (bad down low / well high up) but to be the opposite. Both supplemented each other more or less by fighting each on their terms.

 

The discussion which aircraft was really better is not worth starting. Some pilots called it superiour, others preferred the 109, each for different reasons. If you were scared to die in a landing exident or preferred to have higher live expectendency in combat the 190 was probably an obvious choice over the 109.

 

Later when the Dora modles arrived and 109s mutated more towards bomber killers the performence ap pretty much closed between the 2.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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well known and acknowledged poor performance between 5000-9000ft (operationally a critical area on Eastern front) is often glossed over

Odd you mention that as a disadvantage for the FW190, given that every M-82 or M-105PF powered aircraft has a similar gap at the same altitude band.

 

I agree that the Fw190 legend is somewhat larger than life, but what we have in BoS falls somewhat short of life, not the legend.

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Did you not see the big smiley and (humour) tag

 

The FW 190 was undoubtedly an astounding all round aircraft, with many operational advantages over a similar time-frame 109, unfortunately its reputation gained from a few weeks of notoriety in France has led its legend to be  larger than life and some of its foibles to be ignored

 

well known and acknowledged poor performance between 5000-9000ft (operationally a critical area on Eastern front) is often glossed over

 

Why does every thread have to degenerate to FW190  discussion

 

Cheers Dakpilot

I did see the smiley but little tired about uber thing as soon as someone mentions something about the FW. Sorry about that  :)

 

I think the reason for FW to pop up in these discussions is because it is underperforming compared to the other aircraft in the game. Simple as that. Nothing to do with France.

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Unfortunately so far a proper report without insults,rudeness, accusations of bias and including concise backed up proof has not been submitted

 

This is why we cant have nice things

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Somebody else already said it better than me, but since this has come up ...

 

The biggest issue is not climb/dive/speed/turn rate.  The biggest issue is that the real flaws of Soviet design are not modeled.  The manual, pilot intensive operations required to get the best out of Soviet aircraft - as opposed to the automated systems on the German side - are not fully modeled.  The lack of radios is not modeled.  Fumes in the cockpit of the LaG 5 are not modeled.  All of the nits that detracted from the real world performance of Soviet fighters are not modeled.  Outdated tactical doctrine is not modeled.  Poorly trained pilots are modeled in the AI (you can set USSR to novice and Luftwaffe to veteran) but not online.

 

In reality you had relatively badly led, poorly trained pilots flying machines that were far more labor intensive flying under tactical doctrines that were badly outdated.  Model that and you will get your 10:1 victory ratio.

Nailed it right on the head. Couldn't have said it better.

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Unfortunately so far a proper report without insults,rudeness, accusations of bias and including concise backed up proof has not been submitted

 

A dev (hello Han) who dares to answer "too much text, make it shorter" to a guy who made a big and well written report (was about a stabilizer issue iirc, on russian forum) does not even deserve to be saluted, yet we do it, yet we are polite with him.

 

Sorry but, LOL, stops to find lame excuses please.

 

Trust me they are actually aware of the most ridiculous FM issues such as Yak-1 and Bf 109F-4 high altitude overspeed, they don't need a big report for this kind of issue.

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Fw190 being superior to 109 is just another myth. 190 had some improvements over the 109 like better visibility, lighter stick forces= better high speed maneuverability, better cockpit layout and a wide undercarriage. These are the main reasons why it was seen as a better plane especially among the rookie pilots. However that doesnt mean that it should outperform the 109. 109s will outclimb, outturn, out accelerate 190s. 1 on 1 109 will win 10 out of 10 if pilots are bout the same skill level. Fw190 was more of a bomber interceptor the role in which it did good.

Umm, no. 

 

What you said is a best example of myth. War economy and situation was the reason why Bf-109 was kept in production until the end. 

Edited by Zami

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Fw190 being superior to 109 is just another myth. 190 had some improvements over the 109 like better visibility, lighter stick forces= better high speed maneuverability, better cockpit layout and a wide undercarriage. These are the main reasons why it was seen as a better plane especially among the rookie pilots. However that doesnt mean that it should outperform the 109. 109s will outclimb, outturn, out accelerate 190s. 1 on 1 109 will win 10 out of 10 if pilots are bout the same skill level. Fw190 was more of a bomber interceptor the role in which it did good.

 

Bf 109 advantages over Fw 190 are limited to low speed only.
 
Now tell me how many 1v1 duels have took place during WW2..? Not many, combats were group vs group and with altitude, where speed, brute force, instantaneous maneuverability and robustness were much more important factors than "better climb rate" or "better turn radius".
 
Bf 109 was such a superior fighter that from early 1942, JG2 and JG26 squadrons started their conversion, gradually, to Fw 190s, sure.  :rolleyes:

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This is brilliant, I had never thought of the perfect way to divert an FW 190 Luftwhiner thread (not trying to insult anyone, they do exist :biggrin: )

 

turn it round to 109 vs 190  :ph34r:  (humour)

 

Not calling out anyone here specific and maybe off topic but I just found it amusing  especially considering the long and vast history of FW190 debate  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Bf109 advantages are "Limited" to usual dogfighting speeds below 500kmh.

 

-Squadron Leader Alan Deere: "Never had I seen the Hun stay and fight it out as these Focke-Wulf pilots were doing... In Me-109s the Hun tactic had always followed the same pattern - a quick pass and away, sound tactics against Spitfires and their superior turning circle. Not so these 190 pilots: They were full of confidence..."

 

Now i'll not waste my time, read.
 
If you really think that Bf 109 is more maneuverable than Fw 190, for me it seems like your vision of "dogfighting" is nothing else than "turning turning turning turning" and i can nothing for you.
 
EDIT: Sustained turn performance is not representative of "maneuverability".

 

Where the 109s were even more superior to 190s.

 

I did not said "high altitude" but "altitude".  :mellow:

 

I'll just repeat what i said above.

 

"Bf 109 was such a superior fighter that from early 1942, JG2 and JG26 squadrons started their conversion, gradually, to Fw 190s, sure.   :rolleyes: "

 

Yeah because in 1942, Germany was under massive bombings and needed a bomber killer ASAP, well know.

Edited by Ze_Hairy
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Fw190 being superior to 109 is just another myth. 190 had some improvements over the 109 like better visibility, lighter stick forces= better high speed maneuverability, better cockpit layout and a wide undercarriage. These are the main reasons why it was seen as a better plane especially among the rookie pilots. However that doesnt mean that it should outperform the 109. 109s will outclimb, outturn, out accelerate 190s. 1 on 1 109 will win 10 out of 10 if pilots are bout the same skill level. Fw190 was more of a bomber interceptor the role in which it did good. Bf109 is just the better fighter theres no way around it.

You're forgetting about the extra fire power. This is important, not only because it is tactically very nice to have around three times the fire power, but also because that's the main reason for performance disadvantages in climb and turn. The Fw190A-3 was around 3850kg without the outer guns, now take out an MG151, excess ammo and the extra fuel carried for similar fire power and range/endurance, and you'll end up with an aircraft of around 3650kg. At that weight, at combat power, it climbs, turns and accelerates with a Bf109F-2. You could also compare a Bf109G with gondolas to the Fw190A without, for similar fire power, and you'd again end up with similar climb, turn and acceleration between the two.

 

It's not the Fw190's fault that it was capable of carrying a powerful armament which was considered worth the degraded performance.

 

At any rate, if you set up a normal Bf109 vs. a normal Fw190, where the advantages you describe are true, and take two gamers of the same skill level, the 109 might win 10 out of 10. If you took two pilots of the same skill level, this is just not true.

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And this is were we are back at the beginning, if people don't try to act and fly like the pilots did in the war you will get other results to flying like in a game context. 

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So, i guess JG2 and JG26, both have started conversion to Fw 190s in 1942 but actually not for fighting Spitfires more efficiently, but to defend the German sky from bomber raids... oh wait.

 

Enough.

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Oh these never ending disputes self fueled by egos leading to only grater frustration of the participants...

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Hairy. Its pointless. Devs are so stubborn they dig their own grave. This game is doomed to fail miserably.

IMHO all german simpilots should just dump the game and leave them red dreamplanepilots fly against themselves.

I would so LMAO if just everyone on blues side would pull on one string and simply boycott this game and shelf it until they fix this mess. Just like I do.

No more moeny from me. Before i put another dime into IL2 i rather spend another 2000 bucks into Star citizen.

 

and those last 2 posters starting with S and B. I recommend you putting them on the ignorelist. Just like I did:)

Edited by StG2_Winger

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While Bf 109 was outturned at high speed, outrolled at all speeds, outdived with ease, outclimbed at high speed, outzoomed, left in dust at excessive energy retention game, much less solid, slower at low-mid altitude from january 43 until the end of the war, was harder on the stick at all speeds, possessed a weaker armament, had a worse cockpit visibility... well in fact 109 was a toy when compared to 190.

 

Sµch-A-Superi0r-Fight3r.

 
I love people that try to defend the actual state of Fw 190 FM in BoS, by changing history to their sauce. Funny.  :biggrin:
 
Now, i'm done with you.
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Hairy. Its pointless. Devs are so stubborn they dig their own grave. This game is doomed to fail miserably.

IMHO all german simpilots should just dump the game and leave them red dreamplanepilots fly against themselves.

I would so LMAO if just everyone on blues side would pull on one string and simply boycott this game and shelf it until they fix this mess. Just like I do.

No more moeny from me. Before i put another dime into IL2 i rather spend another 2000 bucks into Star citizen.

 

Lots of people are still flying German in MP.  I guess they just enjoy the challenge of seal clubbing inferior red dreamplanepilots while flying the 109.

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. Devs are so stubborn they dig their own grave. This game is doomed to fail miserably.

IMHO all german simpilots should just dump the game and leave them red dreamplanepilots fly against themselves.

 

How well do you think this game would do in the market if Luftwaffe players really did get 10:1 kill scores based solely on how much better their planes were. Who would want such a game?

Nobody would play it online.

 

Maybe we could set up a special server just for Luftwhiners featuring Me 262s vs Tiger Moths and that should stop all the complaining. Not sure where we will get players to fly the biplanes though...

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How well do you think this game would do in the market if Luftwaffe players really did get 10:1 kill scores based solely on how much better their planes were. Who would want such a game?

Nobody would play it online.

 

Maybe we could set up a special server just for Luftwhiners featuring Me 262s vs Tiger Moths and that should stop all the complaining. Not sure where we will get players to fly the biplanes though...

If I want to make a SIM i have to make it correct. Not balance.

If i want to avoid noone playing a sim where one side HAD the superior planes i cannot simply ignore this and model they planes of one side better. If i do so i am no SIMdeveloper. Then I am a GAMEdeveloper.

The right decision would have been to start with a diffrent scenario. More even or in reality better performing russian airplanes. Not just bend reality by modeling planes the way they are modeled right now.

Edited by StG2_Winger
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Not getting into this whole mess but just a side-note, high speed maneuverability is extremely useful. If a 109 is coming at you fast from above most aircraft with a regular roll rate can just pull to one side then quickly reverse it while the Messer is closing into guns range - the heavy controls and roll rates at 500 and up make it impossible for them to correct their aim and you can then work your way to hit them while they pull out of the dive. It's also what makes the MiG-3 very competitive in that range. All things considered they were different aircraft with different advantages that could be used differently. Better or worse is a matter of how you use it, who are you fighting and how are they fighting too.

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If I want to make a SIM i have to make it correct. Not balance.

 

But it's critical that the game as a balance otherwise nobody would want to play it online. And there are many ways to achieve this within the realm of keeping the planes performance realistic. Plane sets, engines, etc.

 

But it should be obvious to anyone who reads accounts of the real air war in the east why the victory ratio was what it was.

- Many Russian planes had no radios. Try playing online against a bunch of expert pilots all on teamspeak and you're not.

- Many of the Rusian pilots were completely untrained and used no tactics at all. They just flew together in a big hoard.

- Many of the planes had the "gunsight" painted on the windscreen by hand. Hey maybe the real gunsight could be an Unlock in the Campaign!

- That they outnumbered the German planes by 10:1 was sometimes not even an advantage if it could be exploited. When you see a sky full of your own planes it's easy to be surprised by the one that isn't.

 

Most all these factors can't be simulated online. And none of the above has anything to do with the flight properties of the aircraft.

Edited by SharpeXB
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The manual, pilot intensive operations required to get the best out of Soviet aircraft - as opposed to the automated systems on the German side - are not fully modeled.  

 

not really true, if you fly full real, you really have to work to get the optimum engine performance out of the Russian planes. Problem is on most servers, Russian planes have automatic engine management also.

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not really true, if you fly full real, you really have to work to get the optimum engine performance out of the Russian planes. Problem is on most servers, Russian planes have automatic engine management also.

It is somewhat simplified though. You can fly happily with any mixture setting and never have to worry about starving or overflooding the engine, nor overheating. Engines can't seize when interrupting oil circulation by flying with negative G-loads (that also accounts for german aircraft) and don't take damage when running at extreme power settings for long times (High Power at low RPM). The russian inline engines also run longer after sufferiing coolant or oil leaks than their german counterparts (might be subjective).

 

Once you got behind how things work and what you need manual engine management in BoS is nothing but a minor ostacle. I would even go as far saying that RoF is far more difficult in that matter because of wooden prop planes and more sensetive engines that are more prone to damage when overheating / overcooling and reving.

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Manu,

But before I/we all jump on the beat the devs bandwagon, just try this first.

Turn off the icons or the HUD completely, (and try not to use or disable the zoom function) then try the aircraft again. Believe me you will get a different set of results.

I agree with you entirely (except regarding the zoom view, you need this to replicate 20/20 eyesight on a PC monitor)

But yes, the single most unrealistic thing you can do in these fight sims is have the icons turned on. The result will be nothing close to real air combat as now you are in a realm where no aircraft can surprise another and nothing unexpected can happen. The whole reason air combat maneuvering even exists in the first place is to deal with the expected.

Is it perhaps that too many players use icons, that they are so obsessed with small performance differences in the planes. Fighting in a world where nobody can be surprised and can never lose sight of each other. In that case are performance differences are your only advantage?

Edited by SharpeXB

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