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What is with the rendering distance?

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1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I’ve done more testing than you will ever do - and I don’t have your problem - period.

Well you havent read my comment carefully then, looks like all your testing made your head rise like a hot air ballon, 45 seconds to make 10 km at 800 kph and me 262 coming out :) . You might be a good tester but don't really know how to read your data rofl :lol:. Glad you don't have that problem (maybe you don't fly so well) but a lot of us do :P 

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Yep circling around zooming in and out to find ground targets then Bam !!!! Sixed  ... Now where did he come from ...lol ....😂😂

I'm holding off on the next instalment . !!!! Three years , man this should be too notch . Multiplayer needs a kick up the Ass.

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58 minutes ago, =FSB=Man-Yac said:

Well you havent read my comment carefully then, looks like all your testing made your head rise like a hot air ballon, 45 seconds to make 10 km at 800 kph and me 262 coming out :) . You might be a good tester but don't really know how to read your data rofl :lol:. Glad you don't have that problem (maybe you don't fly so well) but a lot of us do :P 

 

I'm not the one with the reading comprehension issue.

If YOU have the problem, fine...then you have the problem...I'm not disputing that.

...and all I meant by the testing comment is that I've stared at aircraft being spawned/activated and coming into view a thousand times during missions tests so I'm quite familiar with what issues I have, and which ones I don't.

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On 5/21/2018 at 7:33 AM, sevenless said:

 

Their engine is their limitation. Maybe they find a way to increase the visible bubble. Time will tell.

 

I do not think there is any limitation on the size of the visibility bubble in the engine as such (based on a long ago discussion about ROF). The developers could set it at any value they want. The problem is simply that the volume of space rendered increases as the cube of the change of the distance, so you potentially have a huge increase on the number of objects that have to be rendered.

 

The limitation is then on whether the player's hardware can deal with this.

 

My complaint is that there is no optional slider to experiment with this. What we have is a lowest common denominator setting, motivated by concerns about MP fairness,  that is imposed on everyone even if they never play MP. This makes the investment in high end PC equipment somewhat pointless for BoX, except for pure eye-candy improvements like shadows, grass etc.

 

TBH I do not have much of an issue with aircraft render distance as such: I rarely spot them at maximum range (or at all :(). But the difficulty of spotting ground objects is a serious shortcoming in the sim for anyone who wants to play around with level-bombing. 

 

My own tentative proposal would be to divide objects by size, (S - fighters, M - bombers, L - factories etc) and have different render distances for each category - preferable on player adjustable sliders. MP servers could fix these settings server side and SP could experiment.

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3 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

I do not think there is any limitation on the size of the visibility bubble in the engine as such (based on a long ago discussion about ROF). The developers could set it at any value they want. The problem is simply that the volume of space rendered increases as the cube of the change of the distance, so you potentially have a huge increase on the number of objects that have to be rendered.

 

Look, it could also be the fact that physics are run in max detail on all aircraft within the bubble. With this you'd get FP imprecision at that sort of range and that'd lead to all sorts of funkiness. To be honest we're not entirely sure (though anyone who is, feel free to correct me) why the 9.5km radius exists. All I know is it is extremely frustrating and adds to the confusion of the fairly poor spotting that we have at all ranges.

At 9.5km a diving plane can appear and then be on your six in under a minute. If flying head on a plane can appear and then merge with you in less than 25 seconds.

Spotting planes at 10km can be fairly difficult, however there are many situations & angles where spotting aircraft at far more than 10km is easy. Truth is we have the systems in game where spotting aircraft at distance is difficult, we don't need the dots to literally disappear.

Edited by peregrine7
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18 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

By the time an aircraft is no longer visible, it’s tiny and well beyond my reach.

 

That's where hardware differences come in. I play at 1080p, and even on a tiny 21" monitor, at 9,5 km, against the sky, an aircraft is quite visible.

 

Quite funny, when you think about it, that 20 years ago, icons in flight sims were pretty much mandatory, then we had a period where spotting got spot on on max graphics... And today, the high end gaming rigs have too high a definition to allow spotting further than a few kms out without resorting to LOD distorting.

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A shot from my 4K screen - there are 8 IL2's, fully rendered in the distance, just above the far wing of the A-20.

Can you see them? I sure as heck wouldn't notice them until they're a bit closer, but they're there, fully represented on the screen...PLENTY far out.

 

Also a fully zoomed in shot...can you see them now?

8_IL2s.jpg

8_IL2's_zoomed.jpg

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To me thats whats the problem, if two formations of 4xIl-2s can pass behined you, and you dont even see them as they are so small, can you see with icons on if thats replay whats that exact distance, its not to far looks to me like they are only around 6-7km from you at best. 
You can only see them on full zoom and if you know they are there, or probably if they come to less then 4km from you, if thats ok with you then ok, to me thats to small radious to detect airplanes. 

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On the zoomed out shot, easily. On the zoomed in shot - with great effort.


Boy 4k looks amazing.

Edited by peregrine7

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21 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

To me thats whats the problem, if two formations of 4xIl-2s can pass behined you, and you dont even see them as they are so small, can you see with icons on if thats replay whats that exact distance, its not to far looks to me like they are only around 6-7km from you at best. 
You can only see them on full zoom and if you know they are there, or probably if they come to less then 4km from you, if thats ok with you then ok, to me thats to small radious to detect airplanes. 

 

How large should an IL2 be that's 4.5 miles away from you? 

 

"You don't even see them as they are so small"

 

That's what happens when things get further away from you - they get smaller yes?

So once again I'm not sure what the issue is.

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17 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

How large should an IL2 be that's 4.5 miles away from you? 

 

About 0.13 degrees. Which is way higher than the 0.02 degrees angular resolution of the naked eye. 

In fact, said Il-2 would be at about 40 km (25 miles) before it got small enough so you can't see it anymore.

Obviously, real life isn't perfect conditions, and you won't necessarily be able to see that far at all times, but you get the idea. 4.5 miles is way too close.

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27 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

How large should an IL2 be that's 4.5 miles away from you? 

 

"You don't even see them as they are so small"

 

That's what happens when things get further away from you - they get smaller yes?

So once again I'm not sure what the issue is.

 

Issue from my point of view is that i think they should be easy visable from that distances, and from even more.

Thats probably problem for only small number of players playing this game from what i see, and i would guess mostly its problem in multiplay as in SP AI is restricted on how far he can see you (3km if i remenber corectly) so you see them before they react, you just lose your ability to better prepare for them if you didnt saw them before that.

I also understand that this will not change from what was said on this problem so far, i just adapted to it with time and conf my settings to best i see works for me so i can see contacts better inside limit of 9,5km atleast.

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25 miles - I would not have guessed nearly that.

The old IL2 placed a large pixel foe each aircraft to boost viewing distance.

I'm sure we don't want that solution in any case. :)

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2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

25 miles - I would not have guessed nearly that.

The old IL2 placed a large pixel foe each aircraft to boost viewing distance.

I'm sure we don't want that solution in any case. :)

In fact i'm wrong, it would be a lot less than that. What with the Il-2 not being a sphere and all.

Me stupid. 

 

So yeah, if coming straight at you, 8 or 9 km would probably be the limit. 

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11 hours ago, Quinte said:

In fact i'm wrong, it would be a lot less than that. What with the Il-2 not being a sphere and all.

Me stupid. 

 

So yeah, if coming straight at you, 8 or 9 km would probably be the limit. 

 

Haze and light scattering surely have an impact too.

 

I remember reading about a F-4 Phantom crew chasing a MiG-21 (or maybe a 19). It was daylight, the MiG was within visual range but neither pilot could see it until they were basically right on top of it, despite it appearing on their radar scope. Don't know what the conditions were exactly but whatever it was... it made spotting that aircraft difficult.

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Atmospheric interference definitely plays a roll in reducing spotting distance, and can vary drastically.

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10 K plane draw is too short, almost every body bitches about it,

Old IL2 most servers were set at 20 to 24 k , lowest one I ever played in had it at 14 K and when you were flying p47 or 51 the dot would pop in like it does here.

left you with very little time to adjust to the fight.

heck just trying to maintain contact in a fighter when you are escorting bombers is super difficult in BOS. I had that problem in WOL last night trying to cover 2 A26 at low level.

Although planes pop in at 10K the load model, depending on aspect profile of the aircraft may not be visible until it's within 2 or 3 k

I cant even remember how many times I've heard these statements on coms while in WOL ( WOW where did he come from, never saw him) and ( I flew around for 30 minutes and never spotted anyone)

Think about the time it takes to merg in a fight at 500 kph

2 planes coming at each other

500 kilometers per hour = 8.3 kilometers per minute per plane

This equals to 4.15 kilometers in 30 seconds for both planes to reach the center of the 10 K when coming at each other

Plain and simple

Monitors try to mimic the outside world but don't get close to mimicking the human eyes ability to see differences in contrast and movement in the real world.  

Lack of distance (10K)

Lack of contrast in objects

tweaking the gama to try and see

don't work very well in this sim

 

Still a good sim, but could be better

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Went for another flight in the ol' C152 today. Smokey conditions with a thick bank of bushfire across the NW. Spotted a seaplane at 26km ID within 30 seconds. Spotted Cessnas at 18-22km, ID at around 15km. Spotted Cessna aerobat at 18km ID instantly (though it had a bright red tail). Didn't see a Piper ~something~ until it was within 8km when we were up in the smoke and that felt pretty close. 

 

Also saw about a dozen international flights spotted between 20km and 25km out. All verified by GPS (though their altitudes are just guesswork on my part). 

 

Spotting was best looking away from the sun with planes turning towards you or with aircraft anywhere above us (against clean blue sky). Spotting towards the smoke was still excellent until we were in it. If IRL my vision was <10km I'd feel pretty claustrophobic - let alone if the other aircraft were coming to kill me.

 

Finding it hard to jump back in the sim, it makes me anxious flying like that. Poor spotting within 10km + no spotting beyond it plays tricks with my mind.

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One thing I really like about this sim is the performance that comes with it. Undoubtedly the 10km bubble plays at least a part in it getting such good performance.

For me that is not a bad trade off. 

However I only play the game in Single Player, namely campaigns and career - and I have no shame, I will toggle labels on and off.

 

I think ideally it would be nice if at some point in the future the developers could extend that distance and make it user selectable with say a slider, or different set distance options. So those that have the better systems can increase the distance, and those that would suffer or just desire better performance can keep it lower .

 

 

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The myopic 10Km bubble is the one single thing keeping me from fully enjoying this, otherwise fantastic, game.

 

It's pretty much game breaking for me.

 

If they can fix the 10Km limit, I'd be over the moon.

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20 minutes ago, dburne said:

One thing I really like about this sim is the performance that comes with it. Undoubtedly the 10km bubble plays at least a part in it getting such good performance.

For me that is not a bad trade off. 

However I only play the game in Single Player, namely campaigns and career - and I have no shame, I will toggle labels on and off.

 

I think ideally it would be nice if at some point in the future the developers could extend that distance and make it user selectable with say a slider, or different set distance options. So those that have the better systems can increase the distance, and those that would suffer or just desire better performance can keep it lower .

 

 

 

Online that setting ould have to be server side controled only, so server sets if he wonts to use max for all players that join that server, it workes like that in CloD and 1946, server has option to use defaule 14km, or more to 25max, and no mather what player has set he will be limited to what server has, so its eaqal playing feald for all in MP. And servers have option to adjust if performance impact is to big, by lovering it.

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I really hate to jump into the middle of this, however there is a lot of confusion here.  In RL I flew a number of different fighters, I have two combat tours in Vietnam that included several engagements with MiG-21s and -19s, went through TOPGUN after Vietnam, instructed ACM for several years, was a test pilot for the F/A-18A & B, and have 4,600 hours of flight time, most of it in jet fighters.  In RL combat or ACM practice it was unusual for any of us to acquire a visual on another fighter at more than 4 - 5 miles (about 6.5 to 8 km) and get a positive ID at that distance.  Sometimes we could get a tally or visual a bit further than that if all aerial conditions were perfect. In a head-on pass at 500+ KIAS each, s**t happens fast; even a tail-chase could go quickly if the other guy was real slow and you didn't control your overtake.  I only fly SP and I use icons.  I fly this sim only for the enjoyment it gives me and at 72 years of age, I'm quite happy with that.  Use this info or don't use it - it matters not to me.  But don't expect to get ID's on another fighter size a/c who doesn't want you to see him (or her, to be PC) at 10 miles or more - just doesn't happen.

S!

Wagslead 

 

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5 minutes ago, wagslead said:

I really hate to jump into the middle of this, however there is a lot of confusion here.  In RL I flew a number of different fighters, I have two combat tours in Vietnam that included several engagements with MiG-21s and -19s, went through TOPGUN after Vietnam, instructed ACM for several years, was a test pilot for the F/A-18A & B, and have 4,600 hours of flight time, most of it in jet fighters.  In RL combat or ACM practice it was unusual for any of us to acquire a visual on another fighter at more than 4 - 5 miles (about 6.5 to 8 km) and get a positive ID at that distance.  Sometimes we could get a tally or visual a bit further than that if all aerial conditions were perfect. In a head-on pass at 500+ KIAS each, s**t happens fast; even a tail-chase could go quickly if the other guy was real slow and you didn't control your overtake.  I only fly SP and I use icons.  I fly this sim only for the enjoyment it gives me and at 72 years of age, I'm quite happy with that.  Use this info or don't use it - it matters not to me.  But don't expect to get ID's on another fighter size a/c who doesn't want you to see him (or her, to be PC) at 10 miles or more - just doesn't happen.

S!

Wagslead 

 

 

Some great first hand info, thanks for sharing!

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1 hour ago, wagslead said:

-Snip-

 

Really cool stuff wagslead, thanks for sharing!

Does not change the fact that right now i am seeing aircraft pop in and out of thin air. Perhaps they are too easy to spot, since im seeing them at the maximum rendering distance, but! Since i can see them, it is becomes insanely immersion killing to have them cloak / uncloak suddenly, and really does not do the game any good. I am somewhat shocked that this issue still persists, after all these years. It's funny (in a somewhat tragic way) to have a friendly call out the grid of a big furball, fly towards it, and go from seeing nothing to suddenly seeing 20 AC + tracers + contrails in the sky.
  You cannot possible think this is okay, if you fly multiplayer and enjoy competetive play. 

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Hi EAF331_Sunde,

 

Since I don't have any MP experience in this sim, I haven't seen the problem you have explained.  That's one of the reasons I really shouldn't have butted in; however, I have seen a/c suddenly blink out when I'm chasing them at the end of a mission and I imagine that is due to them hitting some sort limit set by the person who built mission. 

 

I can see how you would be irritated with having a/c snap in and snap out of visibility.  Having a furball suddenly appear, though, is not outrageously different from what can happen in RL when you head towards where you know the fight is and then you are suddenly in the midst of it.  We did a 1 v Many at TOPGUN using about 25 or 30 a/c and no one was your friend and all the a/c were your enemies.  Talk about having to keep you head on a swivel and not get fixated on a single target!  Oh well, I shouldn't dwell on that sort of thing - it's all in the past for me.  Getting old sucks!

Cheers,

Wagslead

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1 hour ago, wagslead said:

I really hate to jump into the middle of this, however there is a lot of confusion here.  In RL I flew a number of different fighters, I have two combat tours in Vietnam that included several engagements with MiG-21s and -19s, went through TOPGUN after Vietnam, instructed ACM for several years, was a test pilot for the F/A-18A & B, and have 4,600 hours of flight time, most of it in jet fighters.  In RL combat or ACM practice it was unusual for any of us to acquire a visual on another fighter at more than 4 - 5 miles (about 6.5 to 8 km) and get a positive ID at that distance.  Sometimes we could get a tally or visual a bit further than that if all aerial conditions were perfect. In a head-on pass at 500+ KIAS each, s**t happens fast; even a tail-chase could go quickly if the other guy was real slow and you didn't control your overtake.  I only fly SP and I use icons.  I fly this sim only for the enjoyment it gives me and at 72 years of age, I'm quite happy with that.  Use this info or don't use it - it matters not to me.  But don't expect to get ID's on another fighter size a/c who doesn't want you to see him (or her, to be PC) at 10 miles or more - just doesn't happen.

S!

Wagslead 

 

 

Cheers for the share! I'm sure it's quite different to civil aviation. If any of the planes I saw today were camo and trying not to be seen they'd probably slip by. It's worth remembering that in my airspace all the planes can be expected at certain altitudes - therefore we were scanning around us in a line from horizon to + 15-20 degrees. 

I mainly get frustrated with this in game because there are certain directions where a plane is easily visible, so I instinctively scan them quickly and focus on the harder to spot regions (like against ground clutter). This doesn't work in Il2. Also seeing planes pop out when you're tracking them sucks - especially bombers.

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It's not only the planes popping in and out. 

Even if you wont see the plane, you probably could make out the AAA- bursts from longer distances. Not to mention the bigger ground objects and buildings when you bomb from higher altitudes.

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3 hours ago, wagslead said:

I really hate to jump into the middle of this, however there is a lot of confusion here.  In RL I flew a number of different fighters, I have two combat tours in Vietnam that included several engagements with MiG-21s and -19s, went through TOPGUN after Vietnam, instructed ACM for several years, was a test pilot for the F/A-18A & B, and have 4,600 hours of flight time, most of it in jet fighters.  In RL combat or ACM practice it was unusual for any of us to acquire a visual on another fighter at more than 4 - 5 miles (about 6.5 to 8 km) and get a positive ID at that distance.  Sometimes we could get a tally or visual a bit further than that if all aerial conditions were perfect. In a head-on pass at 500+ KIAS each, s**t happens fast; even a tail-chase could go quickly if the other guy was real slow and you didn't control your overtake.  I only fly SP and I use icons.  I fly this sim only for the enjoyment it gives me and at 72 years of age, I'm quite happy with that.  Use this info or don't use it - it matters not to me.  But don't expect to get ID's on another fighter size a/c who doesn't want you to see him (or her, to be PC) at 10 miles or more - just doesn't happen.

S!

Wagslead 

 

 

In game im lucky if i can id airplane from 2-4km depending on angle (better then in other games). I dont have problem with that, and i dont think anyone wonts to be able to be able to id airplanes from far, just to be able to see something is there like other games have as a smudge on screan is enought when you fight or attack ground units, as if you see dot far you can then make desisions to stay over ground targets untill he comes closer or run if you think hes enemy ( maybe hes coming from enemy side so its great chance hes enemy no need to positivly id to be awere of threath) or if in fighter to make trap for him or get higher then him and then go for him, and id when come close, but your then in better position and so on, most contacts i see i dont know who they are until im close, but just being able to know they are there you can treat them as enemy depending on their behavior untill you come close to id.

 

In the end i dont think this can be changed in game and we should just adapt to what we have, problem for me is coming from games where you had distances double then here, so tactics were differant there then here and it just took some time to adapt to how its here. 

Edited by 77.CountZero

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Interesting video on subject by philstyle (talk is about same problem in differant game but aplicable here also)

 

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Thanks Wagslead for sharing your first hand observations.  IMHO, many of us in the recreational combat sim world have unrealistic expectations.  Spotting small a/c at great distance should be very difficult.  As a check, one can go outside and look up for a commercial aircraft at 30 to 40 thousand feet altitude (10 to 13 km distance if near overhead).  Contrails will be clearly visible, but that big honking a/c, viewed at its largest aspect, in NMF or standard airline livery, will be pretty hard to see...not much more than a dot.  Now imagine a small camouflaged a/c with no contrails in a wide open sky (lots of area to visually scan), it would be very, very difficult or impossible to spot (unless you're Chuck Yeager or Sabura Sakai).  At my local general aviation airport, it's easy for me to lose sight of small a/c in the pattern (maybe a mile or two distant) when they enter a sector where there are wooded mountains in the background.

 

When this topic has come up on other forums I've linked or referenced a couple of studies, one by the NAMRL specific to jet fighters and one by MIT specific to commercial/general aviation, that provide a more rigorous examination of the subject.  I've attached the PDFs here for those interested.

 

~S~

 

AKA Knutsac

 

 

Visual Search in Air Combat.pdf

Andrews_1984_ATC-130_WW-15318.pdf

Edited by AKA_Knutsac
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Wagslead's post pretty much verifies what I see in the sim  - which brings me back once again to hardware/monitor resolution.

I simply don't have the "blinking in and out" experience and I get a visual at pretty much the distance I'd expect to in real life.

 

What I do see blinking in are ships.

 

Maybe with bigger aircraft I'd notice a problem.

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1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

Wagslead's post pretty much verifies what I see in the sim  - which brings me back once again to hardware/monitor resolution.

I simply don't have the "blinking in and out" experience and I get a visual at pretty much the distance I'd expect to in real life.

 

What I do see blinking in are ships.

 

Maybe with bigger aircraft I'd notice a problem.

Same for me, only bombers do blink in. I think the issue with blinking in fighters is more when completely zoomed in.

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He's talking miles, there's a difference.  Also atmospheric pressure is halved passing through 5000 feet as a general rule, so half the distortion and dropping from there up.  Getting up near 40K feet and you'll see stars in daylight easily.  He didn't comment on bombers and heavies, only fighters.  Spotting gets quite easy when you have dozens of sets of eyes all looking, you won't go unnoticed for long.

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Yep we're aware of the miles/kilometers thing - the conversion goes without saying.

Statement about what I observe in the sim applies still.

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My uneducated guess would be that by the time BOP arrives there will be an increase of rendering distance by changing how the engine works. I'd think we might see something up to 30 KM away. Maybe its possible to display certain objects even further out (ships 50km for example).

 

I don't really see any big change however until the tech gets revamped.

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49 minutes ago, 216th_Jordan said:

My uneducated guess would be that by the time BOP arrives there will be an increase of rendering distance by changing how the engine works. I'd think we might see something up to 30 KM away. Maybe its possible to display certain objects even further out (ships 50km for example).

 

I don't really see any big change however until the tech gets revamped.

 

And how do you render something that is smaller than a single pixel?

 

That’s aside from the question of whether or not you can see an aircraft at that distance in real life. 

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What you keep ignoring is that ground targets like trucks, trains and tanks are often, not always but often enough, rendered at close range of 3km only. Last time on TAW, a wing of more than 5, and at least 3 people had the ground targets spawn in almost in gun range. That's not a user issue. It appears on multiple configurations, in VR and on Monitor, across different resolutions and graphical settings. And sometimes it doesn't. I can see flak positions and other objects at max range in all other cases. 

 

It's a fact that this is a glitch, and it must get adressed. If you just say "hurdur it doesn't happen on my machine", it won't help the issue at all. It's better to remain silent in this case, than to say anything at all, and provoke the people here. You surely must understand that. 

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So if I’m not having the same issue I should just shut up rather than lending the feedback that I don’t see this issue with a 4K monitor? [edited]

The fact is that I DO NOT have this issue with vehicles - only ships. Vehicles are rendered at quite a distance for me, very tiny - sooner than I’ll notice them in fact.

 

This is why I’m mentioning the hardware factor as it’s seemingly playing a part.

 

Again, you can’t render something at less than a pixel.

 

Edited by SYN_Haashashin

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It's not a hardware issue, at least as far as the monitor resolution being the limiting factor. In what I have seen, there are times when ground units don't come into view until there are perhaps dozens of pixels, that even a monitor at less than 720p could pick up. However, I may have a solution that can help, Fenris. Do you play in VR, and do you notice the trains will only show the engine and never the cars? Or is what you're experiencing different?

 

Edited by baylor703
dozens, not hundreds

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