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What is with the rendering distance?

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1 minute ago, baylor703 said:

It's not a hardware issue, at least as far as the monitor resolution being the limiting factor. In what I have seen, there are times when ground units don't come into view until there are perhaps hundreds of pixels, that even a monitor at less than 720p could pick up.

 

 

...I’m telling you that doesn’t happen with me. So, is it graphics settings, monitor resolution or a combination of factors?

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

...I’m telling you that doesn’t happen with me. So, is it graphics settings, monitor resolution or a combination of factors?

 

 

 

I believe you. I play only in VR, which is why I asked Fenris if he does as well. It was happening to me constantly. I would sometimes even see AA tracers shoot at me they were so close, and yet there would be nothing on the ground. What was happening in my case was that I had some of my controls that I used for other purposes in vr, i.e. the mouse, mapped to a pilot head movement. What this meant was, any time I used that control, my "pilot's" head would also move. Even if I was looking straight ahead in VR, the game could have thought my pilot's head was facing 180 degrees the other way. As a result, the engine often thought I was faced in the complete opposite direction, and it wouldn't render the units in front of me.

 

It will always render planes, but not ground objects. A good way to test this is to see if you can see the pilots in their cockpit when they are next to you. I removed the keymapping, and haven't had an issue since. However, I don't know if Fenris is having the same issue. I'm hoping that it is, and this will help. He mentioned that a few people couldn't even see ground objects until they were nearly in firing range, so I'm hopeful.

Edited by baylor703
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I hear you.

To be clear I’m not discounting or refuting anyone who’s having this problem, Fenris or anyone else.

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Even if it isn't Fenris' issue, hopefully this will get some visibility and other people will see it. Because tons of people use the mouse for pilot head movement before they get VR, and don't change the mapping when they do. Next thing you know, they're using the mouse on the in game map, and then ground units aren't rendering right and they have no idea why. That's exactly what happened to me.

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6 minutes ago, baylor703 said:

Even if it isn't Fenris' issue, hopefully this will get some visibility and other people will see it. Because tons of people use the mouse for pilot head movement before they get VR, and don't change the mapping when they do. Next thing you know, they're using the mouse on the in game map, and then ground units aren't rendering right and they have no idea why. That's exactly what happened to me.

 

It sounds to me like the render engine doesn’t want to render a vehicle/aircraft that is below a certain pixel count. This would cause an object to ‘pop’ as resolution drops. In other words the truck is within render distance, but still comprised of too few pixels. So the lower the resolution, the closer you witness the ‘pop’.  I’m not saying that I know this is the case - just thinking out loud. However this would  explain why I don’t notice this problem while others do.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

 

It sounds to me like the render engine doesn’t want to render a vehicle/aircraft that is below a certain pixel count. This would cause an object to ‘pop’ as resolution drops. In other words the truck is within render distance, but still comprised of too few pixels. So the lower the resolution, the closer you witness the ‘pop’.  I’m not saying that I know this is the case - just thinking out loud. However this would  explain why I don’t notice this problem while others do.

 

 

I think this describes how it is on my machine. Zoomed out I don’t see a static block tank on the ground, but after giving a tiny touch of zoom, the tank pops into view rendered in multiple pixels.

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Just now, LLv34_Temuri said:

I think this describes how it is on my machine. Zoomed out I don’t see a static block tank on the ground, but after giving a tiny touch of zoom, the tank pops into view rendered in multiple pixels.

 

Yeah - this making sense to me - thank you.

This would explain why VR users especially are noticing this issue.

 

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2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Yeah - this making sense to me - thank you.

This would explain why VR users especially are noticing this issue.

 

Yeah, running with fullhd tv myself.

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I don't know if this is related, but I noticed that planes pop in and out just on the outside of my peripheral while using the rift, like I can put a plane just at the outskirts of my view while flying in say a formation and the plane will disappear when I should still be able to see it, was gunna make a thread about it. It happens on both sides. Might be something to do with the rift or the game I do not know. Figured I'd put it out there though. I have none of the other issues, ground targets are fine for me.

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I've always been fan of limited icons for this reason.

People are flying with all kind of hardware and limited icons kinda equalize "playing field"...

It worked good in IL-2 1946, not sure what's the situation now, I kinda froze in time regarding many current IL-2 features and possibilities...

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While I too feel the pain re: the difficulty in spotting contacts, I think icons are a disincentive to using good search techniques and tactics and lessen the very real confusion that was inherent to real fur balls.  I’m not a good dog fighter, so I rely on being hyper vigilant and sneaky.  Icon make it easy for even the unaware pilot to easily spot contacts and removes my ability to surprise the unwary.  And in real life, pilots varied in eyesight and search skill (part sixth sense).

 

AKA Knutsac

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Well, in my game the aircraft disappear in plain sight, even at 500m, whereas in air shows I clearly see small ac up to 2km. I doubt that someone with my "videogame eyesight" passed any kind of pilot eye exam.

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26 minutes ago, AKA_Knutsac said:

While I too feel the pain re: the difficulty in spotting contacts, I think icons are a disincentive to using good search techniques and tactics and lessen the very real confusion that was inherent to real fur balls.  I’m not a good dog fighter, so I rely on being hyper vigilant and sneaky.  Icon make it easy for even the unaware pilot to easily spot contacts and removes my ability to surprise the unwary.  And in real life, pilots varied in eyesight and search skill (part sixth sense).

 

AKA Knutsac

It didn't worked the way you fear it works... it really worked the way it supposed to.

Those are black icons that became visible at like 1,5km or so.

Of course you wouldn't get any red/blue arrows or anything like that...

 

You must look at the airplane to see black icon above it... and also you could set

- range of the visibility of those icons

- type of icon - whether it shows only distance, or distance + aircraft type, or dist.+a/c type+username... combinations

- icon colour, whether to show red-blue or not show at all...

 

You could set up for instance show all aircraft from 1km only distance and show distance+type of aircraft at 100m.:)

 

Here is example from the old days:

 

Spoiler

 

 

People on that (WarClouds) and similar servers got surprised the whole time regardless of those limited icons. Check out how I saw that FW-190 from my cockpit and sorry for the bad resolution/quality of the video...

 

I remember these kind of threads back then too. It was only worse issue back then... but we should bear in mind that what we see on our monitor is not the real thing regardless of the quality/size/quantity of monitors, VR's and whatnot...

 

I get that for some people it may kill part of the immersion. Not for me tho.

Edited by dkoor
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Glad people have calmed a little, keep keeping it civil eh?  :P

Regarding that paper, I like it! However I do want to point out one perceived flaw. The test was done in a dark room, 200cd/m^2 screen with images shown on a grey (mid grey) background.

This limits the maximum contrast of the scene. For aircraft in many lighting conditions the apparent contrast will be far greater than what was achieved in the testing. A good example of this is aircraft against a bright sky. For example (and some pretty shitty maths), a 200cd screen has a maximum theoretical lux of 1,250 - realistically it is more like 500 lux. Which gives us our non-zero theoretical contrast ratio converted to lux (eugh, I know). A bright sky (but not direct sunlight) can be 80,000 lux. Direct sunlight is ~120,000 lux but at this point flaws in the way our eyes work get in the way. These are relative comparisons and to get properly calculated contrast ratios I'd need to do a lot more maths but you get the idea.


This is all assuming the aircraft is pitch black on pure white background, or vice versa, when shown on the monitor - in other words giving the monitor the benefit of the doubt. In the experiment this was not the case, so the maximum contrast at "1.0" was less than half the monitor's theoretical contrast ratio - and even then only on some parts of the plane, as they used a shaded model rather than a silhouette.

Basically, for most scenarios the "1.0" contrast in this is the minimum contrast I'd expect in most daylight, clear sky, IRL situations. Akin to a perfectly aircraft on the perfect background where both a/c and background are at the exact same average apparent brightness. The main situation in which a plane is visible (if you follow phil_style's advice and go out to spot airlines you'll see this) is when it is silhouetted, i.e. the majority of the plane is at a different ap. brightness to the background. 
 

Edited by peregrine7
AVERAGE ap. brightness, otherwise contrast = 0

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2 hours ago, Mac_Messer said:

Well, in my game the aircraft disappear in plain sight, even at 500m, whereas in air shows I clearly see small ac up to 2km. I doubt that someone with my "videogame eyesight" passed any kind of pilot eye exam.

 

Sorry for hi-jacking this. But maybe this gets attention too?

One little test I made today on my 4K  monitor with 1080 resolution. On 4K game is unplayable, its worse than this.

Planes at 1.12 km, 3,36 km, and 4,41 km.

 

BOS1.jpg

BOS2.jpg

Edited by LLv34_adexu

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Still images are actually more difficult to spot aircraft than when you're actually flying because you can track the motion instead of just hunting for dots.

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Glad you posted that Furias - let me illustrate the difference here with 4K

The vehicles are rendered here at this distance,  believe it or not, they're there...just too small to see with the naked eye, however I see no "popping" since the monitor resolution allows them to be represented on screen at a greater distance. The furthest trucks are a single 4K pixel, the closer ones are 4, 4K pixels at this distance.

The top screen shot is an enlarged crop in Photoshop (not an in game zoom) of the screenie on the bottom.

 

I think this illustrates plainly what I've been saying.

That's a group of A-20's getting ready to take off...rendered by 5 or 6 pixels at this distance.

 

 

Vehicle Distant_enlarge.jpg

Vehicle_Distant.jpg

 

 

So, yes there appears to be a render issue, but resolution related.

 

The way the LOD"s/scaling works, the engine needs a minimum of pixels to accurately render the object at that distance, if it lacks the resolution, you don't see the object

until you're close enough that your hardware has the pixels to render with.

 

To mitigate this, you'd need to implement the old style, "fake large dot" method to account the missing resolution and then everyone sees the same thing more or less at a longer, per-determined distance. So pick your poison basically.

 

 

Edited by Gambit21

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51 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

So, yes there appears to be a render issue, but resolution related.

 

The way the LOD"s/scaling works, the engine needs a minimum of pixels to accurately render the object at that distance, if it lacks the resolution, you don't see the object

until you're close enough that your hardware has the pixels to render with.

 

To mitigate this, you'd need to implement the old style, "fake large dot" method to account the missing resolution and then everyone sees the same thing more or less at a longer, per-determined distance. So pick your poison basically.

 

 

 
I take it you're not dismissing the ~10km render disappear distance though? If you zoom-look at a He111 at 9km and watch as he goes past 10km you can clearly see the plane and clearly see it vanish. In VR (where pixels are big) you don't even need to zoom, the plane is there, 1 pixel in size, then gone. When zoomed the plane is, say, 10 pixels (or more if you use lefuneste's mod) and then disappears. 

 

 

Furias, Adexu, if you want to show spotting quality do not upload images directly to the site as these are heavily compressed. Save the image as a PNG, resample to 4k (if not taken in 4k) then upload to imgur with high quality enabled (as a PNG). OR Upload directly to flickr as a PNG.

@LLv34_adexu

@II/JG17_Furias

Edited by peregrine7

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1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

So, yes there appears to be a render issue, but resolution related.

 

The way the LOD"s/scaling works, the engine needs a minimum of pixels to accurately render the object at that distance, if it lacks the resolution, you don't see the object

until you're close enough that your hardware has the pixels to render with.

 

To mitigate this, you'd need to implement the old style, "fake large dot" method to account the missing resolution and then everyone sees the same thing more or less at a longer, per-determined distance. So pick your poison basically.

 

 

I'd be happy if the issue I have was on that kind of distance, but manifests in whole lot shorter distance.

 

For me, the "fake large dot" approach would be ok. It works, why not use it? If I'd want to fly with fine crisp graphics and just enjoy the scenery, I wouldn't pick a combat flight sim for that anyway.

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9 hours ago, grimm862 said:

I don't know if this is related, but I noticed that planes pop in and out just on the outside of my peripheral while using the rift, like I can put a plane just at the outskirts of my view while flying in say a formation and the plane will disappear when I should still be able to see it, was gunna make a thread about it. It happens on both sides. Might be something to do with the rift or the game I do not know. Figured I'd put it out there though. I have none of the other issues, ground targets are fine for me.

This has to do with the rendering problems I mentioned in my last two posts. Certain objects like ground units will not render outside of your field of view to save resources. In vr the field is just a bit off, so objects on your very periphery disappear.

 

Now imagine you have mapped pilot head controls to your mouse, and you move the mouse to look around at the in-game map. Your pilot's head will have also moved against your knowledge because you are just looking around in VR, but the game thinks you're looking behind your seat. Now ground objects in front of you won't be there because the engine believes it is outside of your pov.

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4 hours ago, baylor703 said:

This has to do with the rendering problems I mentioned in my last two posts. Certain objects like ground units will not render outside of your field of view to save resources. In vr the field is just a bit off, so objects on your very periphery disappear.

 

Now imagine you have mapped pilot head controls to your mouse, and you move the mouse to look around at the in-game map. Your pilot's head will have also moved against your knowledge because you are just looking around in VR, but the game thinks you're looking behind your seat. Now ground objects in front of you won't be there because the engine believes it is outside of your pov.

Thtat's what I was thinking except I was flying last night and it was only happening out of my right eye actually, I deleted the mouse controls and will try flying again tonight, I hope that fixes the issues cause it's extremely annoying. Seeing your wingmen blip out of existence still in your view literally right next to you is weird.

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Give it a shot and let's see. It has fixed the problem for me, hopefully it will for you too. Remember, you dont have to delete mouse controls entirely, just remove them from pilot head inputs. Try removing them from camera movement as well if you have to. I don't recall for sure on that one. 

 

Just look for the pilots in the cockpit. That's how you can tell.

Edited by baylor703

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8 hours ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

I'd be happy if the issue I have was on that kind of distance, but manifests in whole lot shorter distance.

 

For me, the "fake large dot" approach would be ok. It works, why not use it? If I'd want to fly with fine crisp graphics and just enjoy the scenery, I wouldn't pick a combat flight sim for that anyway.

 

Yep - that's basically what I was demonstrating there Temuri.

At 4K it's not happening even at the distance shown - the vehicles and aircraft are already there - that's the point.

On a lower res monitor they will not be rendered until the camera is closer.

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Only if it could help any one , is not the theme , but Just to let Know that may be is not this case , but it what happens to me , is a erroniusly possibility  About hidden ground objects , Once I configure in Key mapping Options  erroniusly an option that when I move the joystick up or down all ground targets disappeared suddenly  !? and I restablished in Key Maping and correct that option and every thing OK !

Edited by RAY-EU

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9 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

 
I take it you're not dismissing the ~10km render disappear distance though? If you zoom-look at a He111 at 9km and watch as he goes past 10km you can clearly see the plane and clearly see it vanish. In VR (where pixels are big) you don't even need to zoom, the plane is there, 1 pixel in size, then gone. When zoomed the plane is, say, 10 pixels (or more if you use lefuneste's mod) and then disappears. 

 

@LLv34_adexu

@II/JG17_Furias

 

That brings me back to my question of how do you expect an object to be rendered that is far enough away from you that it's smaller than one pixel? This confuses Chiefwh endlessly apparently.

 

So no again I'm not dismissing anything, but when talking about this you also have to be realistic about limitations.

Is the object disappearing because of an arbitrary 10k limit? Or is it because, unlike say a mountain, an aircraft is too small to be rendered at that distance due to resolution?

I'll do some tests later with the Ju52 and see if I get the same results.

 

Again look at that bottom screen shot (down sampled unfortunately) I can't see those A-20's sitting there on a 24" 4K monitor...but they're there. Zooming in Photoshop reveals them.

Edited by Gambit21

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16 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Again look at that bottom screen shot (down sampled unfortunately) I can't see those A-20's sitting there on a 24" 4K monitor...but they're there. Zooming in Photoshop reveals them.

Gambit, two notes from my side. Maybe I am wrong, but to me it seems the sun is not very high on the sky, which makes the illumination not very good, plus the shining blue icons make it harder to see the small A20s. So when you do further testing with Ju52s, maybe you could post a pic around noon and without icons. It would make it easier to recognize, if we can see the aircrafts.

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I just recorded small vid. I shot first fuel leak from one plane's wing. When I zoomed (in air) up, plane stopped smoking, when I zoomed with my view zoom, I saw smoke again. So I recorded that situation. But this is first time I experienced this on this 40" TV monitor, never noticed that on my other, 4K monitor. But this might be, because I changed some settings yesterday.

9 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

 

Furias, Adexu, if you want to show spotting quality do not upload images directly to the site as these are heavily compressed. Save the image as a PNG, resample to 4k (if not taken in 4k) then upload to imgur with high quality enabled (as a PNG). OR Upload directly to flickr as a PNG.

@LLv34_adexu

@II/JG17_Furias

Those pics are FullHD in game resolution. I had to make JPGs of em. I can upload original PNGs, they are 4K only on my desktop. I will probably records something similar on 4K too so you see difference. But both results will be terrible anyways. 

Edited by LLv34_adexu

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Hey Yogi - the point is simply demonstrating that they’re there - not whether you can see them. The point is that they’re too far away to see - yet rendered on the screen.

 

That’s from a campaign mission - I’ll make a simple test later. 

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FWIW I don't miss the 'big dots' from old Il-2 at all. I think in this game they would stand out even more and break immersion.

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4 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Yep - that's basically what I was demonstrating there Temuri.

At 4K it's not happening even at the distance shown - the vehicles and aircraft are already there - that's the point.

On a lower res monitor they will not be rendered until the camera is closer.

I am playing at 4k. When you do high level bombing you can see the rendering bubble clearly when you look at the forests and when it Passes the target and suddenly the buildings appear. 

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2 minutes ago, Oelmann said:

I am playing at 4k. When you do high level bombing you can see the rendering bubble clearly when you look at the forests and when it Passes the target and suddenly the buildings appear. 

 

Yep, smoke has a set render distance as well.

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10 minutes ago, Oelmann said:

I am playing at 4k. When you do high level bombing you can see the rendering bubble clearly when you look at the forests and when it Passes the target and suddenly the buildings appear. 

 

Yeah bombing is the worst situation when it comes to render distance imo. If missions are realistic He 111 sorties could be up to 6500m altitude in some cases - making the render distance even more problematic. 

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10 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

That brings me back to my question of how do you expect an object to be rendered that is far enough away from you that it's smaller than one pixel? This confuses Chiefwh endlessly apparently.

 

 

You do have to have an imposter at some point (a dot). If implemented well it can look good, if implemented fast and poorly then it will look bad. The old dots from Il2 FB-> 1946 weren't done very well (due to limitations in tech at the time, not blaming the devs!) and we can do far better now.

 

 

10 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

So no again I'm not dismissing anything, but when talking about this you also have to be realistic about limitations.

Is the object disappearing because of an arbitrary 10k limit? Or is it because, unlike say a mountain, an aircraft is too small to be rendered at that distance due to resolution?

 

 

It is due to the limit, if you use zoom the aircraft will be far larger than 1 pixel (especially if it is a bomber) when it disappears. You can still make out the wings and body of a He111 when it zaps out of existence. 

 

I'm not sure how the game currently handles <1 pixel aircraft, it may already use a dot for those. I run a hefty amount of supersampling so it's hard for me to say.

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Some findings from a few tests.

First, I can spot aircraft, and they ARE rendered up to 18k, even 20k on my 4K monitor.

I used an external camera operator for these tests. The aircraft and camera were placed at a known  distance, and verified with the measure tool.

I also used land marks on the map.

 

Here's the thing, they do "blink in" at a certain distance, I'll do more tests to figure out what this distance is.

 

This distance is too great to notice on a 4K monitor, they're just too small, so it's functionally irrelevant from a spotting/immersion standpoint.

They're there sooner than I can pick them up visiually...as I keep saying.

 

The odd thing now...

 

Once acquired by the camera, I can pull that camera out to 10k, 12k, 15k, 18k, 20k, and I can still see the Ju-52 and the 109 I used for the test.

Bet you didn't see that coming.

 

If I switch to the aircraft externals, or to another camera, then back to that original camera, they are no longer present even though I could see them before switching.

If I stay with that camera, I can keep on pulling back to a crazy distance, so far that with the naked eye they're barely visible. In fact so far away and small that I"d never see them if I didn't know where to look. The 109 is a single 4K pixel, the Ju-52 maybe 3.

 

So this tells me there's more to this issue than a simple render distance limitation, which in fact might not at all be what most of you think.

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Kestrel, to answer your confusion.

I don't really have an answer. :)

 

Here's what it seems like.

The camera will not render the aircraft until it closes within a certain distance, (again not an issue at 4K)  but once acquired will retain that object at a much longer distance "on the way out" so to speak. That is so long as there is resolution to support it.

 

So this could be a matter of camera parameter settings, but what this test shows me is that it's not is a limitation of the render engine, and that hardware clearly plays a role.

I don't know how the camera parameters and render parameters are linked under the hood in the sim. In my 3D apps they are closely entwined, but I don't want to make assumptions/statements here because I simply don't know with regard to this engine.

 

So my hypothesis right now is that the camera isn't allowing aircraft/object render over a certain distance if NOT currently being rendered, but if currently being rendered that distance is vastly increased. Again dependent on available pixels. That's the best I can do.

All of this explains why I haven't noticed the issue where aircraft are concerned that most of you report.

 

I'll make a more detailed test mission tomorrow with a static camera, and aircraft flying waypoints sent in 1K increments with subtitle/triggers.

That way I can observe as they pass each marker, take screens and maybe pass it along in case anyone else want to benchmark with it.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Some findings from a few tests.

First, I can spot aircraft, and they ARE rendered up to 18k, even 20k on my 4K monitor.

I used an external camera operator for these tests. The aircraft and camera were placed at a known  distance, and verified with the measure tool.

I also used land marks on the map.

 

...

 

Once acquired by the camera, I can pull that camera out to 10k, 12k, 15k, 18k, 20k, and I can still see the Ju-52 and the 109 I used for the test.

Bet you didn't see that coming.

Did I understand correctly that you're saying there's difference in what you see from the cockpit view and what you see with an external camera? It doesn't matter to me if I could use an external camera to see around the world and look at my own a**, though. :) What matters is what is rendered and on what distance when I'm in the cockpit.

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Undermined regarding cockpit vs external.

I’ll try and test in the cockpit later.

 

There shouldn’t be a difference but that doesn’t mean there isn’t.

 

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On 6/4/2018 at 8:03 PM, Gambit21 said:

So if I’m not having the same issue I should just shut up rather than lending the feedback that I don’t see this issue with a 4K monitor? What are you smoking?

 

The fact is that I DO NOT have this issue with vehicles - only ships. Vehicles are rendered at quite a distance for me, very tiny - sooner than I’ll notice them in fact.

 

This is why I’m mentioning the hardware factor as it’s seemingly playing a part.

 

Again, you can’t render something at less than a pixel.

 

Yes we understood that you do not have this issue. Which, as you rightly concluded, means that you cannot reproduce the issue and are unfit to find out what this is about. This isn't your fault. 

 

But you don't need to go around provoking people and telling them "what are you smoking" and that it was "their hardware issue". It appears on whatever configuration, on 4k monitor as well (I've got one and this bug is quite old btw). 

 

Just because you haven't noticed it, does not mean it isn't there for many people are reporting it. What's your response to that? 

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Way to not understand anything that’s been typed.

 

next...

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