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BSS_Vidar

Excited, but at the same time disappointed

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I can relate to your excitement over the prospect of flying one of your favorite aircraft in DCS.. I feel the same way about the Mustang... and until one gets modeled in IL2-2 there will always be something missing in this series for me.. Having said that I never understood why the idea that being able to enjoy more than one sim for what it has to offer or the notion that taking any CFS on it's own terms, FM s, DMs graphics and all, seemed to be so problematic for some folks. I have yet to see a sim that gets the FMs historically 100% correct for every aircraft in it... and for me taking each sim as it's own universe with it's own physics has been the best course to lessen any frustration. From my perspective all the sims get it close enough to where I do not have to suspend belief in order to enjoy them.. and the more game type sims are just that.. games .. so they do the thing they do well enough. It's like the difference between going to see a movie and going to see a film.. Technically they are the same thing.. but when you go see a film as opposed to a movie... you just know it. You would never expect great dialog and an acting tour de force in a "movie". I could never put "No Country for Old Men" in the same category as "Hitman" ... but both are enjoyable enough in their own right. I have a similar perspective on the games I choose which was why after being all in on WoP and the Beta WT.. I just backed out of it.

 

In my opinion... DCS, CoD and IL2-2.. and even IL2 '46 are all totally different meals to be had and each one offers up it's own unique flavor but for me the fact that this series is the only one that has a steadily evolving menu that is evolving in a reasonable time frame and each new dish is just as tasty in it's own right as the previous ones already on the menu if not better, makes it my "eatery of choice" so to speak. It's my dime .. so I can dine where I want... and sometimes I want something different and at this point in the game I am just glad that I at least have some choices.

+1 and very well put. They all have their ups and downs but one does wish they could learn from each other: DCS takes impression of BoS DM, scenery and AI and BoS of DCS FM and spirit of bi-directional customer interaction. While I think the BoS/BoM game updates are nice I think increasing the bi-directional customer interaction would be good as well because this issue is going to strengthen the DCS customer base a lot going forward I think. A good recent example is the DCS 3rd party developer Leatherneck who are really good at this and it would be great with something similar here.

Edited by Holtzauge
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I can relate to your excitement over the prospect of flying one of your favorite aircraft in DCS.. I feel the same way about the Mustang... and until one gets modeled in IL2-2 there will always be something missing in this series for me.. Having said that I never understood why the idea that being able to enjoy more than one sim for what it has to offer or the notion that taking any CFS on it's own terms, FM s, DMs graphics and all, seemed to be so problematic for some folks. I have yet to see a sim that gets the FMs historically 100% correct for every aircraft in it... and for me taking each sim as it's own universe with it's own physics has been the best course to lessen any frustration. From my perspective all the sims get it close enough to where I do not have to suspend belief in order to enjoy them.. and the more game type sims are just that.. games .. so they do the thing they do well enough. It's like the difference between going to see a movie and going to see a film.. Technically they are the same thing.. but when you go see a film as opposed to a movie... you just know it. You would never expect great dialog and an acting tour de force in a "movie". I could never put "No Country for Old Men" in the same category as "Hitman" ... but both are enjoyable enough in their own right. I have a similar perspective on the games I choose which was why after being all in on WoP and the Beta WT.. I just backed out of it.

 

In my opinion... DCS, CoD and IL2-2.. and even IL2 '46 are all totally different meals to be had and each one offers up it's own unique flavor but for me the fact that this series is the only one that has a steadily evolving menu that is evolving in a reasonable time frame and each new dish is just as tasty in it's own right as the previous ones already on the menu if not better, makes it my "eatery of choice" so to speak. It's my dime .. so I can dine where I want... and sometimes I want something different and at this point in the game I am just glad that I at least have some choices.

 

 

good post.

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I agree Bearcat. They all do bring something to the table, and it's nice to have choices. BoS's graphics engine are stunning, but DCS's 2.0 is bringing a sense of Real World to it. I am an Airline pilot with over 5,000 hours of experience in many types of aircraft. Flight Models are foremost on my mind, because the feel and accuracy is more important to me. When I discovered problems with the RoF Critical Angle of Attack issues in some aircraft (mostly on the German side), I backed out of that sim in a heartbeat despite the money I put into it.

 

The notion made by some folks that planes don't fly on rails made me laugh. They obviously had not tried to take off in the DCS:P-51D, Dora, or K4. Have fun with that your first few tries! ;-) BoS has enough of a FM issue with me that it reduces my wishes to fly it for more than a few sorties. With DCS and its 3rd Party companies bring us more and more, I am being brought more into the fold in that community. As I stated before, The Blacksheep are enthusiastic fans of the PTO for obvious reason due to our name. Friends that frequent BoS have reported to us that the community chastises them for even mentioning the notion of PTO, and has no wish for 777 to expand the series there - which was deeply disappointing to us as a re-enactment squadron that enjoys flying authentic operations from the ship.

 

We have several members who have invested in BoS, and BoM. We have actually been increasing our flying on-line and marvel at the graphics. We will probably still dabble with BoS/BoM from time-to-time, but won't be fully invested unless the stability issues about the 3 axis are cleaned up a bit. When the European map is released for DCS 2.0 this spring, along with the Spit IX, and P-47D Bubble Top, it's gonna be hard to wanna leave for bouncy yaw and pitch moments.

 

V

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Friends that frequent BoS have reported to us that the community chastises them for even mentioning the notion of PTO

No such thing as a united "community" here. Whatever opinion or wishes you hold, there will always be someone to chastise you. Personally, I would welcome a PTO, but another ETO would be OK for me (but please, no more flat lands... Give me a bit of coast and mountains).

 

 

 

When the European map is released for DCS 2.0 this spring, along with the Spit IX, and P-47D Bubble Top, it's gonna be hard to wanna leave

Sounds exciting! Something to keep on one's radar, for sure.

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 When the European map is released for DCS 2.0 this spring, 

 

 

This spring?  Good luck with that one.............

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I can relate to your excitement over the prospect of flying one of your favorite aircraft in DCS.. I feel the same way about the Mustang...  
 

 

Got a DCS P-51 License for sale...

 

PM me if you want it.

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Got a DCS P-51 License for sale...

 

PM me if you want it.

 

You quoted me as saying something Bearcat said or are you offering me your DCS P-51 license? :)

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LOL Your loss Crump... Buy it!!! you can fly with us.

 

My best friend is a Chaplain in the Air Force. I sat him down and taught him the cockpit flow for starting the P-51. When he started the P-51D in DCS, I told him he just learned how to start up a P-51. He could walk out on a flight line right now and crank one up. The look in his eyes was priceless. LOL

 

V

Edited by BSS_Vidar

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The cockpit immersion is just ruined in DCS.  The rudder does not do the basic functions of a rudder in the either of the models I own.  I cannot reconcile the physics of the FM in several areas.  That is a huge immersion killer.  I fly for a living.  Almost every day I am in an airplane at the controls.  When it does not act like an airplane, it is very noticeable.

 

[Edited]

 

Please refrain from posting negative comments about other developers on this forum.

Edited by Bearcat

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I am one of those who, contrarily to Bearcat, constantly struggles to uninstall one sim, in favor of fully dedicating to the other...

 

I can't do that with DCS World vs Il-2 Battle of Stalingrad / Moscow... They're both too good, each on it's own... and they both have their limitations and quirks...

 

@Crump, the rudder in my TF51d and Bf109 K-4 is "alive" in the post-stall region, and I can do that "falling leaf" you mentioned with no problem ?

 

But I do prefer the feel of the 109s in Il-2 BoS/ BoM, on ground and in the air... as well as how trim settings can be used here in il-2..., but then I miss here the pre-stall buffeting I get in DCS's modules... 

 

Ah! and Crump, welcome back - I hope you, just as I do, can enjoy the great features of il-2 BoS / BoM...  ;)

Edited by JCOMM

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Both the P-51D and Dora were incapable of doing the basic design requirements of a rudder last time I played the game.  

 

Maintain coordinated flight throughout the envelope and lift the wing at the stall.

 

If it was fixed then great!  Should increase the market for my key!!

 

[Edited]

 

Please refrain from posting negative comments about other developers on this forum.

Edited by Bearcat

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@Crump:

 

In your return to il-2, assuming you've had a hiatus from it, you will probably notice new features and updates for old problems.

 

I honestly find the aircraft, all of them, a lot more harmonious in their implementation in il-2 Battle of Stalingrad then in DCS, with the exception of the D9, which I also find excellent in DCS.

 

The "wobbling" talked about in a few threads, and in at least one poll, has "gone" for me. I have set the "ideal" curves for my cheap hardware, and I can cope very satisfactorily with all aircraft in il-2 BoS.

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I am not returning to IL2.  I am looking to sell my DCS keys.

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I am not returning to IL2.  I am looking to sell my DCS keys.

Oops!

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My best friend is a Chaplain in the Air Force. I sat him down and taught him the cockpit flow for starting the P-51. When he started the P-51D in DCS, I told him he just learned how to start up a P-51. He could walk out on a flight line right now and crank one up. The look in his eyes was priceless. LOL

 

Unfortunately, this is only a part of what it takes to achieve good cockpit immersion.  If the airplane you are trying to simulate does not act like an airplane, no amount of buttonology can cover that up or provide immersion.

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Crumpp: Truly this comes as a surprise because those of us who also are active in  the DCS forum know it is rife with posts where you have lauded the DCS devs (especially Yo-Yo) and said that it's a great sim. However, I guess it makes sense that you vent your frustration here now seeing you were banned there. Is that why you are selling your P-51 module? How much do you want for it BTW?

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People who have a problem with the Pacific or deem it "boring" are either uneducated, or too lazy to research it to find out how rich it is in Aviation innovation and variety.  I find that the PTO is almost as misunderstood and overlooked as the Eastern Front, especially by anyone whose current freedoms and liberties (such as they might be) weren't guaranteed by the battles fought there.  I've been studying the war in the Pacific for about 20 years and there is WAY more to see when you really dig into researching it than Pearl Harbor, Midway, and Iwo Jima which to the layman is all there is to think about.  It was a massive theater covering more territory, by far than the war in the East, West, and the Med combined, yet people say its boring, or like the truly intellectually challenged "F---  the Pacifc!"  

 

Talk about an enlightened mind...LOL

 

The Pacific theater alone offers more variety, more innovation, and more intricate Air Battles than any other Theater.  Of course, queue the typical "no the Eastern Front was way better!" shouting, but as much as the Eastern Front fascinates me and can't wait to see more of it, there is such a bigger world out there than what the closed-minded Yaks vs. 109s crowd wants. 

 

So if one is not interested in PTO you are un informed? There is more than one reason to find PTO uninteresting. For me it is the flight time, you should know about how many sorties was done in absolute maximum range. How huge the PTO is and how much water. 

I havent studied the Pasific war effort for 20 year per see , but I know enough to be very fascinated by many aspects of it. I know what and when. For me if there where not to be a budget , OK let have it. But I think you overestimate the marked here, and spreading the players into 4 to 10 theaters would not make one single server full 

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So if one is not interested in PTO you are un informed? There is more than one reason to find PTO uninteresting. For me it is the flight time, you should know about how many sorties was done in absolute maximum range. How huge the PTO is and how much water. 

I havent studied the Pasific war effort for 20 year per see , but I know enough to be very fascinated by many aspects of it. I know what and when. For me if there where not to be a budget , OK let have it. But I think you overestimate the marked here, and spreading the players into 4 to 10 theaters would not make one single server full 

I'm not sure why flight times are so often used to discount the PTO here. It is a a sim/game. You can drop an airstart wherever you want, drop and airfield on any sprite of an island or god forbid...............drop an AIRCRAFT CARRIER absolutely anywhere. Purely historical missions are thusfar mostly absent in this sim anyway. PTO has a variety of options and landscapes depending on the master map decisions. I'm not necessarilly advocating PTO but this argument is pretty thin.

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Crump have you ever tried how planes handle in the air in BOS?  I wonder your DCS attack casue until now i saw your only superlative comments about DCS?  Also as a RL pilot i think that DCS P-51 got the best flight model i have tried in home pc until now.  BOS planes are just too wobble and springing expecially at lower speeds.

Edited by 303_Kwiatek

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Crumpp: Truly this comes as a surprise because those of us who also are active in  the DCS forum know it is rife with posts where you have lauded the DCS devs (especially Yo-Yo) and said that it's a great sim. However, I guess it makes sense that you vent your frustration here now seeing you were banned there. Is that why you are selling your P-51 module? How much do you want for it BTW?

 

 

I will make YOU a deal.  39.99 plus shipping and handling (discount of course)! for the P51 and 49.99 (plus shipping and handling) for the Dora.  Now that is just for you so do not tell anyone else.

 

 

The Market for these games seems to be limited.  I went outside and yelled through the neighborhood for someone to buy my computer game key but got no response.

 

BTW...

 

Your analysis C++++ analysis at 3280Ft and 26,250 feet

 

16m0h0h.jpg

 

Yo-Yo's analysis:

 

x2tksh.jpg

 

And my analysis:

 

28jld1z.jpg

 

Agree perfectly on the relative performance that should be seen!!

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Crump have you ever tried how planes handle in the air in BOS?  I wonder your DCS attack casue until now i saw your only superlative comments about DCS?  Also as a RL pilot i think that DCS P-51 got the best flight model i have tried in home pc until now.  BOS planes are just too wobble and springing expecially at lower speeds.

 

I have only an interest in getting my financial's out of this.  

 

A couple of updates ago I would have agreed, Kwiatek.  However, in the last few updates things have changed considerably.  The P-51 rudder for example will not do the basic control requirements of a rudder.  At least it would not pass any engineering team in the world for a viable airplane.

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I will make YOU a deal.  39.99 plus shipping and handling (discount of course)! for the P51 and 49.99 (plus shipping and handling) for the Dora.  Now that is just for you so do not tell anyone else.

 

The Market for these games seems to be limited. 

 

I'm pretty sure that I got the P-51 on sale for $6.99.  

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I will sell it you for 3 bucks.  You can pay me on the second tuesday of next week.

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Not sure why you are having rudder issues in DCS. Hopefully you've set your curves to around 35-40 to take the stink out of raw controller inputs. If you use 'enough' rudder to keep the ball centered, the Pony flys great. You forget to apply enough, you'll flick out.

 

Crump, I am an airline pilot with a lot of experience in several types of aircraft, from an Extra 300 to a B-52. Planes fly like planes in DCS. If you forget your feet, you'll struggle. The axis stabilities are quite nice and each plane is different in that they are each separate simulations. The only issue I have with DCS is button input speeds preventing precise trim inputs - gotta bump back n forth to you get what you want, and thet visual acuity of other aircraft in the current graphics engine - which will be fixed in 2.0.

 

The Dora is a fine addition, but the 109 K4 is still in Beta and is a rocket ship. Just assigned my flight control to it today after having it in my hanger for almost a year now. It is a MONSTER. Dominated my flying against the P-51 to the point that I got board. Hopefully it's speed and climb model will be fixed in the final version.

 

With that said, sorry to see you go. You're gonna miss out when DCS WWII comes out.

 

V

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I'm not sure why flight times are so often used to discount the PTO here. It is a a sim/game. You can drop an airstart wherever you want, drop and airfield on any sprite of an island or god forbid...............drop an AIRCRAFT CARRIER absolutely anywhere. Purely historical missions are thusfar mostly absent in this sim anyway. PTO has a variety of options and landscapes depending on the master map decisions. I'm not necessarilly advocating PTO but this argument is pretty thin.

 

Is it not part of the problem that a PTO game really needs lots of ships to make it work? Given the fidelity standards 1CGS set themselves I wonder if modeling carriers, destroyers, transports etc to their standards - or even a slightly dumbed down standard - is a realistic proposition. Look how much work went into a simple Volga steam boat. IIRC even IL2's offering of ships was fairly limited for similar reasons.

 

Personally I would be happy to see a PTO expansion, both for it's own sake and to spark the interest of our Yankee cousins, but I wonder if it is actually feasible, quite aside from the political issues. 

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I will sell it you for 3 bucks.  You can pay me on the second tuesday of next week.

This has been the worst example of haggling evah! Even Monty Python would be appalled :)

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The cockpit immersion is just ruined in DCS.  The rudder does not do the basic functions of a rudder in the either of the models I own.  I cannot reconcile the physics of the FM in several areas.  That is a huge immersion killer.  I fly for a living.  Almost every day I am in an airplane at the controls.  When it does not act like an airplane, it is very noticeable.

 

Not a big deal if the devs are responsive.  When they get defensive and are just wrong....I have better things to do with my time.

Hahahahah. I am sorry. I type very little on these forums, as I mostly do not fly BOS, I like my western planes (P51 and P47 mainly) way more than early German and Russian. But this just cranks me up :D

 

You were defending them in any possible way. Even when the Fw190 had 29m/s ROC and K4 had NO sitfness, you were there to say that it is the best sim and that BOS and other "games" are not even close to the DCS' level of fidelity xD. You were actively fighting against bug fixing even xD

 

You've got burned in your own game of mockery and false claims. There you go.

 

-------

Anyway, I think that what Leatherneck is doing might be realy interesting. I wish for a good adversary to the Corsair, maybe A6M5? Who knows.

 

To me the worst one can do is praise one dev and only criticise the other. I have BOS, DCS and WT installed right now on my PC and I enjoy them as much as I can. I won't lie that I don't like some parts in ALL of those games. But there are things I like about all of them.

 

There is no "BEST SIM" Right now. They all have flaws and they were always still faaaaar away from reality. But this is what we get... unless someone owns a LaGG-3 or P-51D20NA :D

Edited by =LD=Solty

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Got a DCS P-51 License for sale...

PM me if you want it.

 

The cockpit immersion is just ruined in DCS.  The rudder does not do the basic functions of a rudder in the either of the models I own.  I cannot reconcile the physics of the FM in several areas.  That is a huge immersion killer.  I fly for a living.  Almost every day I am in an airplane at the controls.  When it does not act like an airplane, it is very noticeable.

 

Not a big deal if the devs are responsive.  When they get defensive and are just wrong....I have better things to do with my time.

 

As has been stated.. I said that.. and I already have the DCS P-51.. and the K-4.. and the 190.. and when the Spit and Jug are released I will have them as well... Your impression of DCS does not mirror mine in anyway... The FMs are different.. somewhat.. but no where near rails.. at all... and the cockpits are very good.. I find DCS to be quite immersive.. not quite as visually immersive as this sim.. at leat not to me.. but very well done and since it is developer supported it will get better.. For me DCS and IL2.2 are the only options as far as next gen developer supported sims go and they both do what they do quire well.

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Is it not part of the problem that a PTO game really needs lots of ships to make it work? Given the fidelity standards 1CGS set themselves I wonder if modeling carriers, destroyers, transports etc to their standards - or even a slightly dumbed down standard - is a realistic proposition. Look how much work went into a simple Volga steam boat. IIRC even IL2's offering of ships was fairly limited for similar reasons.

 

Personally I would be happy to see a PTO expansion, both for it's own sake and to spark the interest of our Yankee cousins, but I wonder if it is actually feasible, quite aside from the political issues. 

Everyone thinks PTO is the POA when actually the PTO had 2 sub Theaters, Pacific Ocean Areas with 3 sub Areas and South West Pacific Area. The SWPA would be much more interesting.

Edited by MiloMorai
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By the way Il-2 is not warthunder, here most flying disciplined pilots they don't give up the speed, now with such small community how the [Edited] will flying zero? slaughtered by I corsair every time at start? 

I think of course we need more player because the not fames aircraft like Spitfire and Mustang are not in the game. 

PTO you need all the stuff like ships and all planes new map, for future interesting, but should be not a scenario like Italy 1943 far more interesting or France 1944, then we can skip over to PTO like in old IL-2 when the main US planes are done before?

I hate PTO because of the lame Japanese Planes.... 

Edited by Bearcat
Language

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By the way Il-2 is not warthunder, here most flying disciplined pilots they don't give up the speed, now with such small community how the [Edited] will flying zero? slaughtered by I corsair every time at start?

 

No problem, just fill the maps with gigantic clouds at 1km like WOL server.

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Although this is way offtopic, you know why people preferr to fly Yaks over everything else VVS has? Because it turns best. A Zero would likely be the perfection of the average players dream combat aircraft if it was just a tad faster, but I'm sure speed is less important than turn performence in this case.

 

You could equally assume I-16s are getting slaughtered by Fw-190s but frankly I've not seen that happening often in MP so far.

 

Opinions are what they are, opinions. No reason to fight about them. Personally I don't like the Spitfire very much and yet tolerate peoples wishes for a Med scenario with it (which I'd find most boring).

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka
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You could equally assume I-16s are getting slaughtered by Fw-190s but frankly I've not seen that happening often in MP so far.

 

TBF, the I-16 is pretty damn hard to hit because it's a very nimble target at all speed, while zero is a sitting duck above 250mph.

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By the way Il-2 is not warthunder, here most flying disciplined pilots they don't give up the speed, now with such small community how the [Edited] will flying zero? slaughtered by I corsair every time at start? 

I think of course we need more player because the not fames aircraft like Spitfire and Mustang are not in the game. 

PTO you need all the stuff like ships and all planes new map, for future interesting, but should be not a scenario like Italy 1943 far more interesting or France 1944, then we can skip over to PTO like in old IL-2 when the main US planes are done before?

I hate PTO because of the lame Japanese Planes.... 

 

First of all, half of the Pacific war the US didn't have Corsairs. Before mid 1943, the US have been outclassed by the Japanese planes (Zero in particular). It was mainly Buffalo and Wildcat against Zero. 

If we are talking about more landbased scenarios, there were different planes at both sides. Salomons, Tulagi, Guinea. Allies had P40, some Spits, non-competitive Australian planes, Japanese had Ki43 and Ki61. Later in the war, the times where US had Corsairs, Japanese had N1K, Ki44, J2M, and above all of them the Ki84 and the Ki100, which both were superior then any US planes in the entire war until altitudes around 4-5k. 

In reality they didn't have enough planes, especially of the high performance ones. They mostly had rookie pilots. They had a horrible organisation, and strategy when it came to aerial warfare. That's the reason, why they have been bested by the US. But definitely not because their planes are bad. And since stuff like this, and also low/relative numbers don't mean anything in a flight sim, that wouldn't matter.

At no times in the war, the Japanese planes have been as inferior compared to the US ones, as the Russian planes have been to the German in 1942 (both our current scenarios).

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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Corsair equipped VMF-124 were operational in Solomon's from Feb 43 onward, joined soon afterwards by VF-17 and VMF - 214

 

 

At no times in the war, the Japanese planes have been as inferior compared to the US ones, as the Russian planes have been to the German in 1942 (both our current scenarios).

 

'cough'  Great Marianas turkey shoot?  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Corsair equipped VMF-124 were operational in Solomon's from Feb 43 onward, joined soon afterwards by VF-17 and VMF - 214

 

 

'cough'  Great Marianas turkey shoot?  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Half of WW2 was a turkey shoot for the Germans against the Russians.

K/D during Moscow was even worse for the Russians, then Marianas for the Japanese. 

But this has nothing to do at all with my statement from above. So please don't derail that

At the time the US had their Corsairs, the Japanese had already the Ki61for a long time.

Corsair vs. Ki61 can be compared pretty much to 190A3 vs. Yak1b. I'd give the Ki61 better chances in this duel though

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

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First of all, half of the Pacific war the US didn't have Corsairs. Before mid 1943, the US have been outclassed by the Japanese planes (Zero in particular). It was mainly Buffalo and Wildcat against Zero. 

If we are talking about more landbased scenarios, there were different planes at both sides. Salomons, Tulagi, Guinea. Allies had P40, some Spits, non-competitive Australian planes, Japanese had Ki43 and Ki61. Later in the war, the times where US had Corsairs, Japanese had N1K, Ki44, J2M, and above all of them the Ki84 and the Ki100, which both were superior then any US planes in the entire war until altitudes around 4-5k. 

In reality they didn't have enough planes, especially of the high performance ones. They mostly had rookie pilots. They had a horrible organisation, and strategy when it came to aerial warfare. That's the reason, why they have been bested by the US. But definitely not because their planes are bad. And since stuff like this, and also low/relative numbers don't mean anything in a flight sim, that wouldn't matter.

At no times in the war, the Japanese planes have been as inferior compared to the US ones, as the Russian planes have been to the German in 1942 (both our current scenarios).

 

I think you forgot one of the the most iconic US aircraft that fought throughout the Pacific, especially in Guinea and the Solomons; the P-38.

Edited by RoflSeal

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