Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
II/JG17_HerrMurf

AC Performance Comparisons

Recommended Posts

I'm at dinner with only a cellphone for reference materials. I am comparing AC performance with admittedly unreliable web sources but......

 

Is there any point where Soviet fighter aircraft performance overtakes that of Germany or the allies during the war? Again with limited resources it appears with the exception of one (climb rate) all of their fighter AC lagged (sometimes significantly) in top speed, ceiling and rate of climb.

 

I recognize the Soviet focus was tactical in nature so their AC were optimized for that style of combat. Did they develop an air superiority fighter during the war but not bring it to fruition?

 

The AC I've used are La5FN, Yak9d, P-51D, P-47D, BF-109g6, Fw190 a8 and the D9.

 

I'm seriously not trolling here. It is an honest question from someone fairly new to Eastern operations in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't had a chance to really look closely but the Yak-9U and the La-7 are the top performers in the late war and in some attributes they will be performing above and beyond their German counterparts. Sometimes they don't get the highest top speed but in the medium altitude range they are superior to the German fighters for speed. Power to weight ratios are also something to think about. And also the Russians had made some really great strides in the aviation armament area and their cannons by the end of the war are pretty damn impressive - Being able to fit three lightweight B-20 cannons in the nose of a Yak is still something I think is pretty incredible.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

La-7 and Yak-3/9 with VK-107.

+1 In some aspects, sure, not just eclipsing them, but anyway it means that is not at this stage of the war that we are now 1941/42  :sleep:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On my mobile too so I can't be of much assistance but some general knowledge I can share:

 

During certain periods or under certain circumstances the Soviet aircraft could outperform German aircraft (like the MiG-3 being the fastest fighter in the world in 1940, or its good high-altitude performance). That being said, in terms of climb and top speed the German fighters have an edge constantly (which as far as I know is applicable to the Western front through most of the war too), while Soviet aircraft are usually more maneuverable and perform better below 3-4000m.

 

All things considered, these definitions don't deny their role as air superiority fighters - the MiG-15 and F-86 have their strengths and weaknesses but both were air superiority fighters, for example.

 

While speed and climb can give one the initiative they are not guaranteed winners (see the Soviet evaluation of the F-5E versus the MiG-21bis for example - despite climbing much better and having a higher T/W ratio the F-5 performed much better on 1x1 guns combat, same against the MiG-23).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Yakovlevs were very similar to their contemporary LF Spitfires in their performance data, and they are very good designs. There is just very little that beats a mid period Bf109 in any straight. The Yaks would compare favourably to the Spitfires at altitudes below 4500m.

The LaGG-3s only downfall was the cancellation of the VK-106. With it, it would have outrun the Bf109s up to the early F-series below 4500m in 1940 already.

The MiG-3 was brilliant with the AM-38 and would have challenged mid 1944 planes in Sea Level Top Speed, in 1942.

The early La-5 was basically a LaGG-3 on mild steroids, not much faster, but a good match for the Fw190, less for the 109s.

The Pe-2 was  probably one of the finest russian aircraft, versatile and very fast too.

 

The Problem is that in an international competition, the russians beat most western allied planes by miles, however, the mid period 109s were absolutely brilliant as well, and they set a very high standard.

And the Fw190 wasn't bad either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yak 3 with standard VK105PF2 engine was more then a match for anything jagdwaffe had in their arsenal on eastern front in 44/45.It was pure front line air superiority fighter.German pilots were advised to avoid fighting them.

 

Yak-9 with VK107 was first time factory tested in Dec 42 and results from Feb 43 were 590km/h at ground level and 680km/h at 5800m.Only P51B was faster in that period. Further state trials dec43/jan44 showed increase to 600km/h ground and 700km/h at 5600m.

 

Yak-3 with VK107 was a VVS recordman,achieving 611km/h ground and 720km/h at 5750m during state trials started April 1944.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even looking at these designs, most of their advantages are still at the lower altitudes. The La-7 surpasses the 190 A model but only slightly. The Yak 3, which I know little about, seems favorable at mid to mid-high level but still lacks performance at true high altitudes in comparison to all but the 190 A. Impressive climb data, though, on that one. Not gonna outclimb her from co-E.

 

The Dora, 51 and 47 are still stretching the field in most departments. How did the Russian AC compare in the late war closer to Berlin when the Germans were able to offer a modicum of resistance. I don't own Black Cross/Red Star. Any Dora vs La-7  or Yak 3 fights to speak of? (Really curious on this point.)

 

*edit:

The VK-107 seems little used due to reliability and other factors. Were these aircraft more experimental types and not widely deployed similar to the Focke Wulf Ta series?

Edited by [LBS]HerrMurf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even looking at these designs, most of their advantages are still at the lower altitudes. The La-7 surpasses the 190 A model but only slightly. The Yak 3, which I know little about, seems favorable at mid to mid-high level but still lacks performance at true high altitudes in comparison to all but the 190 A. Impressive climb data, though, on that one. Not gonna outclimb her from co-E.

 

The Dora, 51 and 47 are still stretching the field in most departments. How did the Russian AC compare in the late war closer to Berlin when the Germans were able to offer a modicum of resistance. I don't own Black Cross/Red Star. Any Dora vs La-7  or Yak 3 fights to speak of? (Really curious on this point.)

 

*edit:

The VK-107 seems little used due to reliability and other factors. Were these aircraft more experimental types and not widely deployed similar to the Focke Wulf Ta series?

 

About 4000 Yak-9U were built and those were powered by the VK-107A. They had overheating and other reliability issues but they were part of the tip of the spear that flew during the late 1944 and 1945 campaigns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty easy answer: no there weren't. At the time the soviets had their top performance fighters, the Germans already had the 262, which easily outperformed them obviously.

 

Yak 3 with standard VK105PF2 engine was more then a match for anything jagdwaffe had in their arsenal on eastern front in 44/45.It was pure front line air superiority fighter.German pilots were advised to avoid fighting them.

No they were not told to avoid fighting them. They were told to avoid fighting them below 3000m. Above that, the tide turned towards even the older German fighters at this time (G6 late, G14), at 6km the Yak3 is no match for the 109. The newest German piston fighters, like the K4 or the Dora have been faster, better climb rate at any altitude, and also had a better turn rate at high alt. The K4 was even faster at ground level. Apart that..the Germans already had the 262, which surpassed the Yak3 again by a mile. 

 

Yak-9 with VK107 was first time factory tested in Dec 42 and results from Feb 43 were 590km/h at ground level and 680km/h at 5800m.Only P51B was faster in that period. Further state trials dec43/jan44 showed increase to 600km/h ground and 700km/h at 5600m.

Yak-3 with VK107 was a VVS recordman,achieving 611km/h ground and 720km/h at 5750m during state trials started April 1944.

If we are talking about prototyps, i can name you loads of German one's surpassing both of them. If we are talking about operational history, the Yak3 with VK107 was no WW2 plane, so it has no place in this discussion.

The Yak9U went operational in  summer 1944. It almost reached the performance of the Mustang, good work here. But a few month later the K4 came, which again, surpassed the Yak9U in pretty much everything, even ground speed (615 with MW50). And the 262 again....

 

HerrMurf, since you asked about performance between all Axis, Soviet, and Allied planes, i have a pretty neat chart out of my book, comparing the best fighters of the war against each other:

732621-1450253790.jpg

 

unfortunately there is no comparison at low/zero alt, where the Russian fighters would look way better.

Steigrate=climb rate

Vollkreis=turn time

the rest is self explaining, i hope :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soviet engines didn't require injection of additives to achieve their power output.Both Yak fighters with VK107 mentioned were undergoing factory,state and military trials, they were not experimental purpose built wonders.At the final part of war every major fighting force came with ultimate piston engine designs and also conclusion,that jet era has begun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty easy answer: no there weren't. At the time the soviets had their top performance fighters, the Germans already had the 262, which easily outperformed them obviously.

 

No they were not told to avoid fighting them. They were told to avoid fighting them below 3000m. Above that, the tide turned towards even the older German fighters at this time (G6 late, G14), at 6km the Yak3 is no match for the 109. The newest German piston fighters, like the K4 or the Dora have been faster, better climb rate at any altitude, and also had a better turn rate at high alt. The K4 was even faster at ground level. Apart that..the Germans already had the 262, which surpassed the Yak3 again by a mile. 

 

If we are talking about prototyps, i can name you loads of German one's surpassing both of them. If we are talking about operational history, the Yak3 with VK107 was no WW2 plane, so it has no place in this discussion.

The Yak9U went operational in  summer 1944. It almost reached the performance of the Mustang, good work here. But a few month later the K4 came, which again, surpassed the Yak9U in pretty much everything, even ground speed (615 with MW50). And the 262 again....

 

HerrMurf, since you asked about performance between all Axis, Soviet, and Allied planes, i have a pretty neat chart out of my book, comparing the best fighters of the war against each other:

732621-1450253790.jpg

 

unfortunately there is no comparison at low/zero alt, where the Russian fighters would look way better.

Steigrate=climb rate

Vollkreis=turn time

the rest is self explaining, i hope :)

I should have been much more specific and stated, "piston engined." So, aside from the obvious Me 262 I found some useful info here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My take: operationally, no Soviet designs never really surpassed German designs.  They did catch up though, such that when we compare late war Soviet designs we are talking about advantages and disadvantages more than superior and inferior.

 

Also a serious question and not a troll:

Towards the end of the war the Luftwaffe was decimated.  It had planes, but the best pilots were mostly dead.  Western pilots, both more numerous and better trained, started scoring in droves with relatively light losses to enemy fighters,  This did not seem to happen on the Eastern front.  Even towards the end of the war it seemed that German pilots were inflicting greater losses on their Soviet counterparts than vice-versa.  My question - why?

 

Was it the case that Soviet training was not up to western standards?

Did Soviet designs, apparently equal or superior on paper, not perform in the real world as well as they should have?

Were Soviet tactics inferior?

Is this perception totally false and Soviet pilots really were inflicting heavy losses on the Luftwaffe without great loss to themselves?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soviet engines didn't require injection of additives to achieve their power output.Both Yak fighters with VK107 mentioned were undergoing factory,state and military trials, they were not experimental purpose built wonders.At the final part of war every major fighting force came with ultimate piston engine designs and also conclusion,that jet era has begun.

The fuel injection in german fighters didn't improve power by much. The reasons were different. Injection doesnt ice up, it's fully aerobatic, consumes less fuel, and works better with low fuel grades. The brits decided agains FI because Carbs take high boost pressures better than FI. FI also works better in cold weather, where carbs have trouble starting up, and FI doesnt require long warm up periods. This decreases skirmish times. The engine also runs smoother at low rpm, doesnt stutter and pulls more cleanly.

FI doesnt blow up, the way carbs do.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's always difficult to identify clear winners in these discussions but, for what it's worth, Squadron Leader Wade's (Air Fighter Development Unit) post-war analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of some of the late war western fighters is informative.    

 

In his opinion, balancing this against that and in the process noting that some fighters were unrivaled in certain specialized areas (eg the P51 as a long range escort fighter), he suggests the Spitfire 14 had the best all around capabilities (speed, climb, acceleration, ceiling etc).  Not perfect of course, but close.  :cool:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/sl-wade.html

Edited by Wulf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the soviets had their BI-1 which outperformed the 262 :biggrin:

Reading is apparently not your strength..we are talking about operational history.The BI1 is a prototyp. In addition it is a rocket plane. The German had a rocket plane in operational history, the Me163, which easily surpassed the BI1. They also had two jet prototyps which surpassed this Russian rocket plane (Horten 229 and Me P.1101). Bachem Ba 349 was also miles ahead..

 

Some of those performance figures you have dont look right.

 

 

 

P-51D

 

War Emergency power (3000 RPM and 67") 26000' 442 MPH 

 

Military power (3000 RPM and 61") 28000' 439 MPH 

 

Normal Rated power (2700 RPM and 46") 29400' 420 MPH 

 

 

War Emergency power (3000 RPM and 67") high blower (19,000') 3200 ft/min or 16m/s

War Emergency power (3000 RPM and 67") low blower (4,800') 3600 ft/min or 18m/s

 

(with wing racks which cause a drag penalty of about 12 mph or 20 kmh)

 

 

 

Also the heaviest 109 outturning mk9 spitfire at 6000 meters? Thats....interesting to say the least, never heard that before.

"that I have"? LOL good one. I am not the one to make some magical numbers up here. I just posted data from reliable aircraft historians. But if you think you know better  :biggrin: .

To the turn rate..especially at higher altitude this has nothing to do with weight. Most important thing is how much power the engine can generate at certain altitudes. Turn rates alter extremely with altitudes. For example at 11km, the P47 (apart from the Ta152) has the best turnrate of all WW2 planes. At 8km, the P38 (late) could outturn a 190A..while at ground level it wouldn't stand a chance. At higher altitudes "turn fights" are more becoming prop hanging, and hoping not to stall in a wide circle. 

 

 

as we all know air combat on the easter front took place at lower altitudes where the late war soviet aircraft had the advantage.

i wouldn't call it an advantage beeing limited to hover around at low alt, beeing jumped by Germans coming from higher alt  :biggrin:

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Manu, to be fair you did say, 'the chart out of my book,' which to a non-native English speaker could be easily misunderstood. (I knew what you meant.)

 

And Saburo,

 

as we all know air combat on the easter front took place at lower altitudes where the late war soviet aircraft had the advantage.

, this is being borne out in the game presently so I presume the FM's, though needing some tweaking still, aren't too bad overall.

Edited by [LBS]HerrMurf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't had a chance to really look closely but the Yak-9U and the La-7 are the top performers in the late war and in some attributes they will be performing above and beyond their German counterparts. Sometimes they don't get the highest top speed but in the medium altitude range they are superior to the German fighters for speed. Power to weight ratios are also something to think about. And also the Russians had made some really great strides in the aviation armament area and their cannons by the end of the war are pretty damn impressive - Being able to fit three lightweight B-20 cannons in the nose of a Yak is still something I think is pretty incredible.

Wasn't the Yak-9U introduced in 1946? La-7 wasn't faster than the Dora, but performed pretty well, to Soviet standards. I think it was actually the Yak-3 that the German's feared.

Edited by Y-29.Silky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-snip-

i proved my claims and points with historical sources. As long as you don't do the same, you are just [Edited]. Discussion over

Edited by Bearcat
Name calling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's clear that the operational altitudes vary on a) the attack force's altitudes and b) the target that needs to be destroyed.

 

To attack a factory complex the USAAF/RAF needed heavy bombers, and these were more effective and survivable at 8k and up. Similarly, to attack a tank column you need attack aircraft, which are effective at a very low level.

 

That means the escorts can't fly more than 1000m higher, and the intercepting force needs to fly similarly close to be able to attack the ground pounders effectively and also spot them quickly.

 

My point is, when attacking a B-17 formation the Luftwaffe used its maximum speeds to the limit, while when attacking an Il-2 squadron they were forced to play by the La-5/7 and Yak-9/3's rules.

 

It's nothing new, the MiG-3 had to fly low because the Germans were low, the tables just turned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fuel injection in german fighters didn't improve power by much. The reasons were different. Injection doesnt ice up, it's fully aerobatic, consumes less fuel, and works better with low fuel grades. The brits decided agains FI because Carbs take high boost pressures better than FI. FI also works better in cold weather, where carbs have trouble starting up, and FI doesnt require long warm up periods. This decreases skirmish times. The engine also runs smoother at low rpm, doesnt stutter and pulls more cleanly.

FI doesnt blow up, the way carbs do.

 I wrote about injecting ADDITIVES.Hope it is clear for you now  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Being able to fit three lightweight B-20 cannons in the nose of a Yak is still something I think is pretty incredible.

 

You're thinking of the La-7. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Wasn't the Yak-9U introduced in 1946?

 

Late 1944. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're thinking of the La-7. 

 

Maybe he is thinking to replace the heavy SchWAK with the lightweight B-20 cannons that are already in-game?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, the Yak 9U was a high altitude/air superiority fighter. There is a difference of opinion on this thread as to whether it was a front line fighter employed in numbers or not. What is the consensus and are there references?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A total of 3921 Yak-9U(VK-107) was delivered from April 1944 to August 1945 

 

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/ru/yak9u.shtml

 

Which is a lot more than the 650+-total production of FW190 D series including the 17 D-11  and 2 D-13 models

 

I believe there is a very nice original Yak-9U (1946 model) at museum of flight in Seattle

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't the Yak-9U introduced in 1946? La-7 wasn't faster than the Dora, but performed pretty well, to Soviet standards. I think it was actually the Yak-3 that the German's feared.

 

 

The 9u was realeased into operational service towards the fall of 1944.

 

That said, I believe it was the 3's that were feared as well much more so than the 9U

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're thinking of the La-7. 

 

Thinking of the Yak-3P and Yak-9P... yes, both are post-war variations but I was just using that to highlight what the Russians were bringing online at the end of the war. If they had needed any of this stuff they could have probably rushed it forward.

 

Maybe he is thinking to replace the heavy SchWAK with the lightweight B-20 cannons that are already in-game?

Not in IL-2 BoS but we got some B-20 armed aircraft in IL-2: 1946.

The 9u was realeased into operational service towards the fall of 1944.

 

That said, I believe it was the 3's that were feared as well much more so than the 9U

 

I'd be curious if the Germans were more than nominally aware of the Yak-9U. From a distance it would appear just as another Yak-9. I've never read very much about its combat exploits or the German perspective on it... We know they had them in numbers. I'm going to make an assumption that they pushed them into squadrons as supplies allowed - if earlier in the war was any indication... You'd see a variety of Yak models available in the same fighter groups and squadrons.

Edited by ShamrockOneFive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at German fighter performance, you'll find that between 1941 (109F-4) and late 1944 (MW50 injection), the performance of the 109 did not significantly increase, and likewise, between 1942 (190A-3) and late 1944 (190A-9, 190D-9 with MW50) performance of the 190 did not significantly increase. The Germans were busy making their fighter cheaper to produce and more versatile in the field.

 

At the same time, the Soviet Yak fighters gained 100km/h between 1941 (early Yak-1) and 1944 (Yak-3, Yak-9u) and just as much as the La fighters between 1942 (early La-5) and 1944 (La-7). Obviously, with all fighters built to nominal condition, the Soviet front line fighters clearly outperformed their German counterparts during the summer of 1944 - marking the relative low of German fighter aircraft performance. In fact, with the Ash-82FN in the La-5FN in 1943, the Soviets had an aircraft that was more powerful than the similar sized Bf109, and considerably lighter and smaller than the as powerful Fw190. Naturally, perfect aircraft condition assumed, it would be the better performer, for the first time in the war.

 

In reality, both production quality and aircraft conditions in the field varied considerably on both sides, but again with the trend of German quality getting worse, and Soviet quality getting better as the war progressed as far as performance factors were involved. However, the aircraft used in the field still varied widely in their conditions, for instance it is well documented that both sides removed wheel covers because bad airfield conditions rendered them useless anyway, occasionally even blocking the gear, causing accidents. So in the field, the aircraft on both sides could easily be 50 or even 100km/h slower than the same aircraft just coming out of the factory, depending on what makeshift modifications they carried. This makes it very hard if not impossible to generalize performance.

 

By the end of the war, the widespread use of MW50 on the German side pretty much closed the gap, compared to the best the Soviets had.

 

Compared to the aircraft of the Western Allies, the Soviet aircraft were pretty much outperformed at high altitude to the wars end, but very competitive with the best at low to medium altitudes towards the wars end. Imho not necessarily better, though.

Edited by JtD
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trying to combat Spit 14s up high and Tempests down low would be a very grim prospect for any air force in late '44-'45.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you consider the numbers the situation is even more grim especially when thinking about two 'fronts' those 650 (total production) high performance FW190D 's (as an example) had a lot to contend with, nearly 6000 La-7's produced 44-45

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..and thats the problem - quality.Towards the end of the war and a/c we discuss about,german production deteriorated.After large raids on messerschmit factories in 1943 and 44 production has been strongly decentralized thus depending on many small subsupliers from all over the occupied Europe.Many factories in Protectorate Bohmen und Mahren (todays Czech republic) participated in production of several subcomponents and even complete assembly in underground factories.Either by slave work or in former czech aircraft factories.There were little sypathies for nazi regime there,sabotages were encoutered on many occasions.

Large quantities of DB605 engines were located and seized after war ended in may 1945.Newly established czechoslovak airforce had plans to continue production of messers,until new fighter could be obtained.There were many wings,fuselages and other components available to assamble several hundreds of them.Unfortunately DB engines were found faulty and with extremly small resurs (not much then 25h).Such engines were not accepted by army officials.For peactime aviation they were considered too dangerous to use.

 

 Simmilar situation was in tank industry.Tests done with captured Pzkpfw VI Ausf B from Sandomierz bridgehead fights (1944) in Poland revealed serious downfall in armored steel quality.It was extremly brittle with inadequate welding quality.

 

 Now try to simulate that in computer game for crazy nerds and chart monkeys and wait for the mob with pitchforks and torches :biggrin:

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, a little off topic. The question is regarding performance and although it was not specified in the OP we should be considering factory fresh aircraft, to spec, as that is what we get in the game. Every Luftie argument tries to get an advantage by bringing up early war Russian AC quality and it gets vociferously discounted. The counter argument regarding late war German AC must therefor be similarly discounted.

 

So far the answer seems to be......it is altitude specific regarding late war AC performance. German AC design and pilot training was a clear advantage in the early going. Russian AC design matched or overtook German AC at the lower levels. It's a toss up at mid levels and high altitude. This leaves some fairly minor FM questions and seems to be historically reflected in game thus far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...