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Mouse Aim & Multiplayer

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Well, as the fleeing 190 pilot I think I should add a little perspective here. Sturmkraehe dove on me and had a temporary E advantage out of his dive while I was trying to intervene in a 1v1 at just over 500 kph. I spotted him, late, well above me at about 790m and dove for the deck. I saw his first tracers a few seconds later.

 

I rolled out and started maneuvering while he landed 2-4 hits inside 350m. I continued maneuvering while bleeding his energy with small jinks. As I began to extend I don't think he landed any more hits. At about 440-450m, just before I was planning to step climb him, I had a prop strike on a tree, awarding him the kill. I don't take anything away from him on the kill but I don't think the mouse aim had much to do with it. I've been hit both more and fewer times in various similar situations, as well as run down, before mouse aim was introduced. There weren't any extreme distances involved in this case.

 

Does the mouse assist prevent the pilot from abusing his engine? I've had Yak's stay in a footrace much longer which would negate any instability in aiming. Longer contact = more opportunity to fire. I didn't expect to extend as easily as I did in this chase. I'm an average dogfighter at best but I manage E very well.

 

Being in the normal server with icons made it really easy to know distances with accuracy in this case.

 

~S Sturm!

 

 

Hi Murf,

 

of course I had an advantage. Mouce control does not generate energy or provides a good shooting position by itself. And I did not want to brag about my kill (I have shot down surely a lot over the past 10 years of flight combat simming so no need for me to prove my dogfighting skills to anybody). My point was that while I was completely neophyte in MC I was capable to score some hits on a fleeing FW (and you were gaining distance with respect to me). As I yesterday said in the chat it was purely test as I wanted to see how I perform with MC with respect to JC. I wrote my post with the sole purpose to explain that I think after my experiment that MC allows better aiming (not maneuvring) than with JC, the latter not allowing that steady aim as MC. 

Edited by sturmkraehe

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MC is also an assistance to flight maneuver based on optimized FM, just like AI use (Best path is chosen)

So it's definitely an unfair advantage vs a full real pilots with joysticks and ruder.

 

I will never go in a server mixing the two. Those things should be kept separated !

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MC is also an assistance to flight maneuver based on optimized FM, just like AI use (Best path is chosen)

So it's definitely an unfair advantage vs a full real pilots with joysticks and ruder.

 

I will never go in a server mixing the two. Those things should be kept separated !

Your choice where you go, but if the things should be separated or not should be only up to server host. And thats what happens now, which I find a very good compromise for those who dont mind and those who despise MA.

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No, it's sniping + very good stability (harsh movements can lead to slight oscilation, because the virtual pilot pulls crazy manouvres trying to move the aim quickly - that's just a matter fo a second though). + some unmentioned things.

 

If more people were into MA mechanics and how mouse joystick differs from that I guess more would tend to preferr the later. Mouse "controll" is not a beginners tool, as it just differs too much to allow a connecting learning curve.

 

It's like comparing this:

dreirad_aktiv_m.jpg

 

to that

bmw_s1000rr_2.jpg

and saying both are about equal despite noticeably technical differences. It just isn't. And it's obvious not everybody who can drive a tricycle will move on to drive a high end motorbike.

I used to have much better tricycle and I preffer Ducati  :salute:

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Hi Murf,

 

of course I had an advantage. Mouce control does not generate energy or provides a good shooting position by itself. And I did not want to brag about my kill (I have shot down surely a lot over the past 10 years of flight combat simming so no need for me to prove my dogfighting skills to anybody). My point was that while I was completely neophyte in MC I was capable to score some hits on a fleeing FW (and you were gaining distance with respect to me). As I yesterday said in the chat it was purely test as I wanted to see how I perform with MC with respect to JC. I wrote my post with the sole purpose to explain that I think after my experiment that MC allows better aiming (not maneuvring) than with JC, the latter not allowing that steady aim as MC. 

Like I said, I'm not taking away anything from your kill. It was a good bounce. I just want both sides to be represented.

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So long as mouse aim does not give you hyper accuracy and the ability to easily prop-hang it should be fine. These are the two issues War Thunder has which can make Realistic Battles a chore to play on that game.

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As someone said in another thread when TrackIR FIRST came out, people threw hissy fits saying it was going to ruin flight sims.......how did that really work out?

TrackIR proved to be a success. Mouse in games like War Thunder has proven to be a total failure that compromises gameplay and rewards those who put forth the least effort and skill, resulting in an over entitled player-base.

 

The results are there, you just have to acknowledge them.

 

Now if they force users to have a mouse-joy like in War Thunder, that's perfectly acceptable for multi-player servers. As mouse-joy requires the user to control all the flight surfaces themselves, just like a joystick.

 

The thing that I don't like about mouse being involved, is the potential for them to "improve" it to the point that it's no longer air combat and turns into another FPS point and click shooter system. Mouse support also invites that wrong type of player-base, as also can be witnessed in War Thunder. You know that whole crowd that treats the word "effort" as if it's a four letter word.

 

We have to think in terms of consequences. Not just how the control system works, but what type of players it will invite to the game.

Edited by Warpig
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MC is also an assistance to flight maneuver based on optimized FM, just like AI use (Best path is chosen)

 

There is no optimized FM or different FM for AI or MC. There is an additional control algorithm for MC to adjust the various control inputs to move the plane to where the mouse was pointing but it is still using the same FM and they are not going to get to that aiming point any quicker with MC over a joystick - they will actually get there slower because it doesn't push the aircraft to the edge of the envelope like a joystick user can. The AI was not the best example to use here, they don't use the best path - they just turn and are terrible.

Edited by FuriousMeow
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Now if they force users to have a mouse-joy like in War Thunder, that's perfectly acceptable for multi-player servers. As mouse-joy requires the user to control all the flight surfaces themselves, just like a joystick.

 

Wouldn't "mouse joy" (mapping the X and Y axis of the mouse to pitch and roll) still require auto-rudder and hence still be a "game aid" mode?

 

 The thing that I don't like about mouse being involved, is the potential for them to "improve" it to the point that it's no longer air combat and turns into another FPS point and click shooter system. Mouse support also invites that wrong type of player-base, as also can be witnessed in War Thunder. You know that whole crowd that treats the word "effort" as if it's a four letter word.

Isn't the whole point of mouse control to create an easy intro to flight sims for new players? As a game-aid, mouse control is no different than auto engine management or icons or any of the other game aids. And as such all the game aids are server settings so there's something for everyone. You don't have to play against mouse control if you don't want to, same as you don't have to play against external views or padlocks etc. Edited by SharpeXB
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Wouldn't "mouse joy" (mapping the X and Y axis of the mouse to pitch and roll) still require auto-rudder and hence still be a "game aid" mode?

Mouse joystick has the abbility to either bind rudder + aileroun to x-movement or seperate them. It's nto compareable to mouse aim at all though because you're still applying relative input to your controll surfaces with mouse joy unlike mouse aim, which just tells your pilot to fly in the direction you point it. Mouse joy is effected by weather, terrain and other influrences to the flight behaviour just like a joystick, MA on the other hand isn't due to fly by wire.

 

Isn't the whole point of mouse control to create an easy intro to flight sims for new players?

Talking about WT, no. The whole point of Mouse aim is making easy money from people who do not even seek for an easy introduction into a flight game but an aerial shooter game involving little effort.

 

Not saying BoS/BoM will go down that road as well but the bad example still shows what's possible.

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When I try it. Mouse aim actually has to be air shooting. Just like using a console game pad. It's the only way I can wrap my mind around the Y-axis inversion. Think shooting like an fps. Don't even try to think about actual flying or it's backwards.

I have to say constantly to myself

"It's a shooter" "It's a shooter" "It's a shooter"

Aw crap up is down and down is up! Arrrg!

Maybe it's better that mouse control is in fact air shooting. It's something every player can do.

If you make the mouse control more complex and capable then yes it would actually become an institution and players wouldn't want to give it up after learning it. Like you wouldn't want to give up rudder pedals. Plus mouse aim isn't capable of the maneuvers that real flight controls can do so there's an incentive for getting a joystick. If you make the mouse a joystick there's no incentive to get a real one.

And having joystick-only servers is another incentive.

Edited by SharpeXB

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Talking about WT, no. The whole point of Mouse aim is making easy money from people who do not even seek for an easy introduction into a flight game but an aerial shooter game involving little effort.

 

Not saying BoS/BoM will go down that road as well but the bad example still shows what's possible.

This right here. Mouse-aim took what was supposed to be an entry level control system, and made it apply to Realistic modes as well. Now because of this, there's only 1 balanced mode out of three, and the MA player base actually thinks this is okay. Or that's it's normal to play with an advantage over others. Yes, they actually think this is normal gaming.....

 

Even players in WT that have been playing for 3 years still cling to their entry level Instructor assisted controls, while touting how they are God's gift to air combat. These are not payers that joined the game to participate in Sim Combat. These are players who's only interest is to exploit unfair gameplay and get rewards and stats.

 

This is exactly what I don't want this game to evolve into. Mouse aiming control systems will only invite death to the air sim genre.

Edited by Warpig
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This is exactly what I don't want this game to evolve into.

 

 

Again, servers control who plays with what and so far the major Expert servers are joystick only.

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Again, servers control who plays with what and so far the major Expert servers are joystick only.

That's good as long as the devs keep that option there. I would hate to see them give in to the demands of mouse users in the future though and forego this control because of pressure.

 

That fact that mouse is here, is a risk to the integrity of the game IMO. Especially when some mouse users are already over-stepping their bounds and asking to be included in all servers.

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That's like saying the easy mode FM is a threat, or the easy controls is a threat, or the technochat is threat to integrity. They all make it easier/less difficult to play, and the MC adds another layer to that.

 

There's no reason to strip out that option to allow joystick, MC, or MC/Joystick controls, anyone can run their own server and if the mouse players want it that badly - someone will setup a server for them that is mouse control only with difficulty settings checked except for external view and they can 'pwn' each others little hearts out.

Edited by FuriousMeow

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That's like saying the easy mode FM is a threat, or the easy controls is a threat, or the technochat is threat to integrity. They all make it easier/less difficult to play, and the MC adds another layer to that.

 

There's no reason to strip out that option to allow joystick, MC, or MC/Joystick controls, anyone can run their own server and if the mouse players want it that badly - someone will setup a server for them that is mouse control only with difficulty settings checked except for external view and they can 'pwn' each others little hearts out.

The normal mode still requires the player to control all flight surfaces themselves. And offers no point and click shooting. That's the important thing.

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We have to think in terms of consequences. Not just how the control system works, but what type of players it will invite to the game.

This is what worried me about tanks too. I'm already seeing "IL-2 Tank Simulator" on YT with people already wishing for Tigers and Whirblewinds.  

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The normal mode still requires the player to control all flight surfaces themselves. And offers no point and click shooting. That's the important thing.

I don't think the mouse should control all the flight surfaces like a joystick. Then it would be equal to a joystick. And it can't control the rudder anyways so it will always be computer aided.

Mouse aim or mouse control can only ever be an aided mode and therefore server restricted. Which is fine.

But this is a flight sim formost and that means real flight controllers should be the better and preferred controller. Nothing wrong with having mouse control as an option but keep it segregated and give the players an incentive to move up to the joystick. So far that's how this is all going so I don't see any problem.

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Ok so I finally actually tried this for myself in BoS, I had already tried it in RoF

It's terrible!

This is going to dominate a joystick? Are you kidding? No way... Hey anyone is welcome to have a go at this, it's doesn't bother me at all. It's not an advantage whatsoever, and no you can't aim for squat with it. And you can't do any actual maneuvers like a Split S or anything.

I remember when I was new to flying games trying a mouse and that lasted for about 4 seconds before I went out and bought my first joystick.

When I was new to this I couldn't even make a simple turn in RoF without falling out of the sky but I could still fly better back then than I can now with this mouse thing.

Edited by SharpeXB

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That's good as long as the devs keep that option there. I would hate to see them give in to the demands of mouse users in the future though and forego this control because of pressure.

 

That fact that mouse is here, is a risk to the integrity of the game IMO. Especially when some mouse users are already over-stepping their bounds and asking to be included in all servers.

 

Paranoid much?

 

YOU DONT HAVE TO USE MOUSE CONTROLS

 

YOU DONT HAVE TO PLAY WITH PEOPLE WHO USE MOUSE CONTROLS

 

What the hell are you complaining about?

People complaining about this either are too bored, don't know how to read, or both.

 

/rant

Edited by Jade_Monkey

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Ok so I finally actually tried this for myself in BoS, I had already tried it in RoF

It's terrible!

This is going to dominate a joystick? Are you kidding? No way... Hey anyone is welcome to have a go at this, it's doesn't bother me at all. It's not an advantage whatsoever, and no you can't aim for squat with it. And you can't do any actual maneuvers like a Split S or anything.

I remember when I was new to flying games trying a mouse and that lasted for about 4 seconds before I went out and bought my first joystick.

When I was new to this I couldn't even make a simple turn in RoF without falling out of the sky but I could still fly better back then than I can now with this mouse thing.

My same impression, but for one thing: aim.

Mouse aiming is quite useless in a dogfight, but I find the "auto" stabilization an advantage against ground targets or bombers.

Sure, I have no rudder pedals, so the twichiness of joystick rudder is a factor, but my aim is much better with mouse against a stationary (or straight flying) target.

Imagine a MP scenery with mouse controlled 110 escorted by joystick 109, against bomber or attack planes.

 

Anyway, I think We are overreacting a little. Time will tell.

 

:salute:

Fazer.

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Personally I think the mouse control is excellent.BoS was dead to me before it was introduced.I only had a cheap joystick (Logitech 3D Pro) but trying to hit a target with it was practically impossible for me.The mouse gives me a nice steady shooting platform.Ok,so that's giving me an advantage over my previous control method but I'm playing almost full-time ground attack,I'm still an easy kill for other aircraft. In fact I'm not comfortable in the air-to-air role,the control method isn't as good as the one War Thunder implements to me.

 

My only complaint is I wish there weren't so many 'joystick-only' servers.Ah well,I can't have it all.At least I'm flying the game again.

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Paranoid much?

 

YOU DONT HAVE TO USE MOUSE CONTROLS

 

YOU DONT HAVE TO PLAY WITH PEOPLE WHO USE MOUSE CONTROLS

 

What the hell are you complaining about?

People complaining about this either are too bored, don't know how to read, or both.

 

/rant

 

Agree. Now it's clear and that's its a distinct choice to make at the server level. As far as things are kept separated, It is not worth than the good old IL-2 proposing Easy, Normal or Realistic level of difficulty and assistance. They were plenty of Icons Servers/Hosters  with External view activated ... didn't spoil the servers where expert people wanted to have a full real experience playing HSFX in a SEOW campaign.       

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Having Wonderwoman view ( and i beleive those servers were very popular) in IL-2 1946 did not detract from its sim roots, mouse control will be the same with BoS

 

Gameplay options = more players

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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I joined this late, but I am very wary of having mouse aim, because my experience in WT was that it dragged the playerbase down to a lower level, instead of uplifting people into full simmers. I hope for the latter but am very wary of the former. Having to deal with mouse aimers who think, as someone earlier put eloquently, god's gift to piloting, get's old pretty fast, and when lots of people jump ship to arcade or arcade plus because the earnings were easier and better meant that even the one haven left to simmers quickly became a ghost town.

 

And let's not even start on the uproar the mouse aimers made when a few simmers suggested separate servers for arcade plus. No, the mouse aimers felt entitled to their easy prey, and would not let the serfs leave town, because anything that would even remotely make a more balanced playing field was immediately shouted down by a sea of mouse aimers. They had to have the beginning joystick pilots, who are struggling to keep their sights on the desired target, as easy prey as they point and clicked their way through, sniping at 800m+ from a steady plane. Even joystick aces have troubles, while that virtual instructor can fly with one wing easily.

 

This here looks a bit more promising (mouse aim not all powerful in 99% of situations like in WT), and the ability to split servers, but I remain on my guard.

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Mouse control is successful in WT no doubt because it's used in the arcade style game mode, external chase view & icons. In the Expert BoS mode a mouse flyer would get slaughtered by a joystick player because the mouse control is only good for pointing and not flying. As much as I tried it, you can't do any actual combat maneuvers with it so you'd get wiped out by another player who can. It's a fine feature but it definitely belongs on its own server.

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Paranoid much?

 

YOU DONT HAVE TO USE MOUSE CONTROLS

 

YOU DONT HAVE TO PLAY WITH PEOPLE WHO USE MOUSE CONTROLS

 

What the hell are you complaining about?

People complaining about this either are too bored, don't know how to read, or both.

 

/rant

I have a right to be paranoid. With this generation of lazy gamers, they want everything to be done for them. They can't be bothered with practice, effort, or research to apply themselves to a game. They want everything to be done with the flick of their mouse, no learning required.

 

This is not an opinion, it's an observation.

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This is not an opinion, it's an observation.

 

Nope, that's definitely an opinion, unless you have actually observed every gamer of the "lazy" generation but I'm going to go out on a limb and say you haven't.

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I have a right to be paranoid. With this generation of lazy gamers, they want everything to be done for them. They can't be bothered with practice, effort, or research to apply themselves to a game. They want everything to be done with the flick of their mouse, no learning required.

 

This is not an opinion, it's an observation.

You have every right to be paranoid but it doesnt make it any less ridiculous.

 

Who are you to dictate how other people have to olay games, or how much discipline they need in this aspect of their life.

 

Maybe they just want to get online for 20 min and shoot some planes down without investing into other hardware.

 

That's not my style but im not going to tell others how to play, especially in the non expert servers

Edited by Jade_Monkey
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You have every right to be paranoid but it doesnt make it any less ridiculous.

 

Who are you to dictate how other people have to olay games, or how much discipline they need in this aspect of their life.

 

Maybe they just want to get online for 20 min and shoot some planes down without investing into other hardware.

 

That's not my style but im not going to tell others how to play, especially in the non expert servers

 

Exactly.
I guess most playing this sim that is with joystick/footrudders/quadrants/headphones and a family around have its setup somewhere hidden/isolated.
Now just stand still to consider RL: being married while living in an rather small apartment and maybe one or 2 kids around.
Needing only a mouse and a laptop makes it a completely different ballgame for those.
One may even go for a 15 minutes intermezzo in between whatever.
I for sure would NEVER consider calling that LAZY, that would be thinking in black & whites only.
Edited by West

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Not to mention that every generation will claim that they know for sure the generation that came after theirs is a bunch of entitled slobs who want everything in their plate and/or are a bunch of lazy bums. Hard to find someone who wasn't told that "your generation is lazy, back when I was young we..."

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Personally I think the mouse control is excellent.BoS was dead to me before it was introduced.I only had a cheap joystick (Logitech 3D Pro) but trying to hit a target with it was practically impossible for me.The mouse gives me a nice steady shooting platform.Ok,so that's giving me an advantage over my previous control method but I'm playing almost full-time ground attack,I'm still an easy kill for other aircraft. In fact I'm not comfortable in the air-to-air role,the control method isn't as good as the one War Thunder implements to me.

 

My only complaint is I wish there weren't so many 'joystick-only' servers.Ah well,I can't have it all.At least I'm flying the game again.

According to some elitarists here,you are perfect example of the not-so-cool kid to play with,their online statistics threat and DOOM in general  :biggrin:  ;)

As for me,you are a welcome buddy to fly with/against.I really dont care if people fly with mouse,sticks or brooms ;)

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Thank you Brano.My biggest problem is finding a populated server that doesn't have 'joystick only' :(

 

My sim history dates back to the original Falcon on the Atari ST so I'm no newcomer to the genre.I just find it easier nowadays (painful joints/old age etc etc) to control everything with mouse/keyboard. Maybe if I had one of those fancy HOTAS set-ups lots of you guys have it would help but I neither have that sort of spending power anymore or want half my desk cluttered up with that sort of stuff when sims only account for around 10-15 percent of my gaming time.

Edited by [D12]Lister_of_Smeg
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I can feel your pain.It would be really a positive and welcome gesture from the server providers to allow guys with mouse to join in populated servers.While not being very competitive in dogfight,mouse can be utilized much better for flying bombers and maybe raise dwindling number of heinkel and stuka pilots ;)

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I can feel your pain.It would be really a positive and welcome gesture from the server providers to allow guys with mouse to join in populated servers.While not being very competitive in dogfight,mouse can be utilized much better for flying bombers and maybe raise dwindling number of heinkel and stuka pilots ;)

+1

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You can still be successful in WT arcade mode with a joystick. It just takes practice. I've racked up some pretty good kill counts and been accused of cheating for outmanuevering guys. Like I said earlier, you can pull more g's than someone flying with the instructor. It allows you to out-turn just about everyone in practically any aircraft in arcade mode. Once in awhile, when I used to play, I would see another joystick user in arcade. You can immediately tell the difference. The thing is no self respecting joystick user will spend too much time in arcade. If guys did actually stay long enough to overcome the couple of shortcomings of using the joystick in arcade mode, I think joystick users would totally own arcade mode. Especially if you factor in track-IR that most of us joystick users have. The mouse guys get target fixation and almost never check their six. Easy kills with tracer-less ammo.

Edited by GeneralZod

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I have a right to be paranoid. With this generation of lazy gamers, they want everything to be done for them. They can't be bothered with practice, effort, or research to apply themselves to a game. They want everything to be done with the flick of their mouse, no learning required.

 

This is not an opinion, it's an observation.

So games are ment to take alot of time and concentration and not be  a relaxing a fun experience ? Do you think most people (adults more then likely) have the time to constantly research and spend tons of time on something that is ment for enjoy ment ? Doing what your suggesting is what is limiting the genre . All we need is the community and the DEVs to properly implement a system that is easy , but makes aircraft playable but able to protect themselves in game that is simply what mousejoy is  . I dont know if your a full time college student with 3 kids but from what your saying either your retired or just have tons of spare time . 

Edited by =TITAN=Jaxum

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So games are ment to take alot of time and concentration and not be  a relaxing a fun experience ? Do you think most people (adults more then likely) have the time to constantly research and spend tons of time on something that is ment for enjoy ment ? Doing what your suggesting is what is limiting the genre . All we need is the community and the DEVs to properly implement a system that is easy , but makes aircraft playable but able to protect themselves in game that is simply what mousejoy is  . I dont know if your a full time college student with 3 kids but from what your saying either your retired or just have tons of spare time . 

 

This is a simulator. And for most in the genre, the research on how to do it is half the fun. If they make it easy, they take the "simulator" effect out. An easy comparison is Call of Duty vs Arma. One is meant to be easy, the other, not so much.

 

And I'm a college student who has no time on his hands.

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So games are ment to take alot of time and concentration and not be  a relaxing a fun experience ? Do you think most people (adults more then likely) have the time to constantly research and spend tons of time on something that is ment for enjoy ment ?

 

For this game and War Thunder, just for an example. 50% of the player have played the game for 5 hours or less. Same with Call of Duty or whatever. Some games with a big following that number might be as high as 20 hours. But the bottom line is that people who play a particular game for hundreds of hours are a very small %. The typical player will buy a game, get some fun out of it for few hours and then go buy something else. That's normal. So if someone buys BoS casually like that it's fine, they still bought it.

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