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indiaciki

What's the wobbling thing ?

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How does wobbling look from the outside?

 

does it look like this inside a 109?

 

Edited by indiaciki

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part of it has to be pilot skill. I see in multiplayer those who get into nasty wobbles and those in the same plane who do not. And part has to be the controller. I have a MSFFB2 and a Thrustmaster t16000m. The Thurstmaster is so much easier to fly without wobbles. That includes not using the force feedback on the MS stick.

 

Stop it with this nonsense. It's got nothing to do with skill.

 

Here's a track I just recorded. The fight and landing are all pretty boring, but there's nothing in the video that would point to "wobbling." My point here is that just because you can fly around / fly through it, doesn't mean it's not present.

 

Again, this is not an issue of skill. It's an in-game phenomenon worthy of discussion. Sorry the video quality is so poor; it's the best my at-home connection would allow me to upload.

 

https://youtu.be/bRQw20JrWQo

Edited by Prefontaine
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We are talking two entirely different things. I assume the cockpits always shake a bit so never gave it much attention.

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Stop it with this nonsense. It's got nothing to do with skill.

 

Here's a track I just recorded. The fight and landing are all pretty boring, but there's nothing in the video that would point to "wobbling." My point here is that just because you can fly around / fly through it, doesn't mean it's not present.

 

Again, this is not an issue of skill. It's an in-game phenomenon worthy of discussion. Sorry the video quality is so poor; it's the best my at-home connection would allow me to upload.

 

https://youtu.be/bRQw20JrWQo

 

Thx Prefontaine,

 

nice video and flight !

 

There was still some yaw wobbling though :-) It was noticeable whenever you approached higher AoA and were making climbing turns, for instance... The wobble we have been complaining about and that most refer to in it's form of "aircraft nose fixed by rubber band" affects both pitch and yaw...

 

But for instance yesterday I took some time to compare takeoffs in DCS K4 vs IL-2 BoS G2 and F4 ( mainly concentrating on the amount of rudder deflection required in each sim and the overall takeoff run...as well as observed sideslip across the rw while the gears are still in contact with the ground even on paved runways in BoS... ) and then, as the K4 became airborne started trying to compare how it "wobbles" seen from the outside compared to the G2 and F4 in BoS, when rudder is momentarily applied and then returned to neutral, and found that both wobble, with the oscillations maybe being damped faster in DCS, but not that much more.... In pitch there is a remarkable difference between the two 109s, and it's very evident from the outside as well.

 

And, indeed, as you point out, it's certainly not to always blame the pilot skill or the controllers, although pilot patience can help - that's what I've been trying to use, patience remembering to return all my inputs to center at my own pace, don't letting go off the stick, but sometimes, in the heat of the dogfight, I forget about it :-)

Edited by JCOMM

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Examble wobbling FW190

 

 

Thank you Widukind!  Couldn't probably get a better example of what I, and others, have long been complaining about...

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Thank you Widukind!  Couldn't probably get a better example of what I, and others, have long been complaining about...

I think thats an issue as well and should be adressed. However what can help here is adding some "expo" on the elevator- and rudder- axis, a decent stick extension (20cm+) and lots and lots of practice.

At least thats what eliminated the problem for me.

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One question...maybe someone can respond...It's basic physics

 

One Bf109-F4 has 2300kg aprox of empty weight.

 

How is possible that one A/C with > 2300kg in Toff, with the mass that will take (and adds inertia that he will take), can do this wobbling?

 

In my experience, flying in cockpit in a large number of aircrafts, (heavy and very lights aircrafts), never I've seen this in real live, never

Sry for my bad English...

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That's just over correcting. Too much input back and forth.

Add some response curve (adjust sensitivity) on the stick.

The thing in these games is it lets you slam the stick around in a way that would be impossible in the real plane due to the forces.

With the right sensitivity setting and practice you should be able to hold the sight completely steady on a target. Look at Prefontaine's video.

Edited by SharpeXB

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That's just over correcting. Too much input back and forth.

Add some response curve (adjust sensitivity) on the stick.

The thing in these games is it lets you slam the stick around in a way that would be impossible in the real plane due to the forces.

With the right sensitivity setting and practice you should be able to hold the sight completely steady on a target. Look at Prefontaine's video.

Widukind is one of the best simpilots i know. I am sure he knows what he does. And no doubt he is not the only one that has problems with wobbling.

So IMHO its definately a thing that needs to be adressed sooner or later. Not everone has the possibility to add a stickextension to compensate for this behavior.

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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That's just over correcting. Too much input back and forth.

Add some response curve (adjust sensitivity) on the stick.

The thing in these games is it lets you slam the stick around in a way that would be impossible in the real plane due to the forces.

With the right sensitivity setting and practice you should be able to hold the sight completely steady on a target. Look at Prefontaine's video.

Guess my settings are wrong as well then as my skills since my 190 behaves just like Widukinds and so does several other planes (but the Yak and 109E), Sharpe believe it or not but there is actually an issue and this topic is pulling more and more of the silent users out of the closet.

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In the game the Bf109 "wobble" include in take-of run, if you're not careful, end bends the propeller...  :)

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Sadly all the BoS aircraft show insufficient lateral stability.

That's why real life pilots in my squad won't fly them. They're equally critical of DCS for the same reason.

The excellent G4 video above proves it.

56RAF_phoenix

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Guess my settings are wrong as well then as my skills since my 190 behaves just like Widukinds and so does several other planes (but the Yak and 109E), Sharpe believe it or not but there is actually an issue and this topic is pulling more and more of the silent users out of the closet.

Many people have sucess with the filter setting as well. I know people have trouble with this but there are many who don't. It's probably a controller issue.

Just about every flight sim plane I have (DCS RoF etc) is jumpy like this without adding some response curve.

Edited by SharpeXB

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Sadly all the BoS aircraft show insufficient lateral stability.

That's why real life pilots in my squad won't fly them. They're equally critical of DCS for the same reason.

The excellent G4 video above proves it.

56RAF_phoenix

Just out of curiosity - what do they fly then ?

 

SharpeXB, I've used at least 4 different joysticks with BoS - X52 Pro, X55  Rhino, Thrustmaster COUGAR HOTAS and T.16000 - they ALL show the exact same problem,

 

and the only way I can, with or without curves in their pitch settings, avoid the wobble is by holding them and "manually" / "slowly" force their return to their trimmed neutral point - which can easily be done during leisure flight sessions, but will become complex in the heat of a dogfight....

 

There is a Poll at the Poll's forum. Unfortunately up until now only 35 member have cast their votes ...

Edited by JCOMM

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Guess my settings are wrong as well then as my skills since my 190 behaves just like Widukinds and so does several other planes (but the Yak and 109E), Sharpe believe it or not but there is actually an issue and this topic is pulling more and more of the silent users out of the closet.

:good:

Edited by dburne

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That's why real life pilots in my squad won't fly them. They're equally critical of DCS for the same reason.

 

Do those real life pilots fly real 109s?

Just curious how they know what "insufficient lateral stability" means for that plane if they haven't flown one.

Edited by SharpeXB

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SharpeXB,

 

if my mother comes here and tells there is really a problem with the flight dynamics, will you believe me ?  :biggrin:

 

You're a lawyer, confess....

 

And, btw, I would really appreciate to see any commentary on this subject by the Devs team.... even something like - "there's nothing wrong with it and it's correctly modeled", or, what I would really prefer to read - "we are planing to fine tune it...."

 

It doesn't certainly turn the sim unplayable, far from it, but it introduces an rather unplausible bias...

Edited by JCOMM

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There is a Poll at the Poll's forum. Unfortunately up until now only 35 member have cast their votes ...

 

Voted...

  • Upvote 1

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SharpeXB,

 

if my mother comes here and tells there is really a problem with the flight dynamics, will you believe me ? :biggrin:

 

Hey I'm sure it's against the forum rules to bring anyone's mother into a flight model debate. ;-)

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Sadly all the BoS aircraft show insufficient lateral stability.

That's why real life pilots in my squad won't fly them. They're equally critical of DCS for the same reason.

The excellent G4 video above proves it.

56RAF_phoenix

Really? Any specific aircraft in DCS? I only ask because I find DCS to be pretty darn good, but the only Warbird I've spent much time with is the P-51.

 

I'm loving the updated cockpit in the MiG-29, but that's for another topic :).

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Really? Any specific aircraft in DCS? I only ask because I find DCS to be pretty darn good, but the only Warbird I've spent much time with is the P-51.

Agree for the P-51 and Fw-190 (the 190 was a very tail heavy plane in early beta and handled awfully first but got fixed a few weeks before leaving it's beta status - now it's a stable gun platform and a pleasure to fly).

The 109 is....quite a different story. But that's not to include in here I think. ;)

 

Do those real life pilots fly real 109s?

Just curious how they know what "insufficient lateral stability" means for that plane if they haven't flown one.

Some people don't have to dirve a formular 1 racing car to know it should not turn like a gocart and flip on it's back in tight turns at 40km/h. And as sby with literally no flight expirience I guess you might be better taking some distance from those who have instead of desperately trying to discredit their opinions.

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Widukind is one of the best simpilots i know. I am sure he knows what he does. And no doubt he is not the only one that has problems with wobbling.

So IMHO its definately a thing that needs to be adressed sooner or later. Not everone has the possibility to add a stickextension to compensate for this behavior.

 

I get those wobbles when the airplane is out of trim, i.e. a lot of nose-up or down pressure on the stick. 

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as sby with literally no flight expirience I guess you might be better taking some distance from those who have instead of desperately trying to discredit their opinions.

But see I'm not the one claiming the DCS flight model is wrong. I have no idea.

And not that another games FM is proof of anything but when people start criticizing ED it's a little suspicious. Their stuff is considered to be rather impeccable in that regard.

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Without graphs, exact dynamic responses of the aircraft to standardized input signals (step signals, ramp signals, etc.), frequency analysis, and other scientific methods and mathematical apparatus used in description of such phenomena - all this discussion about feelings of different people with different skills, experience and hardware, is useless. I am just amazed how this "wobble" topic comes up just in about every sim that tries to model and simulate non-linear aircraft dynamics, starting from Il-2, CLOD, DCS World, current Il2, etc. Once the devs would eliminate the "wobble" I am certain that another group of vocal individual would start a crusade against FM flying on rails all backed up with pilot accounts, feelings, experience, etc. As someone working in the field  automatic control system design and flight dynamics and also has RL piloting experience, I tend to believe that the developers got it right and we are just seeing more limitations of our controllers and forces we are applying, which is contrasting to what can be done in real life, but that's just my personal opinion that everyone is entitled to agree or disagree.

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A number of us have flown light aircraft, to a lesser or greater extent. One is an ex-fighter pilot and used to fly F5s, so it'll be really interesting when that comes out in DCS.

It's very easy to say, "of course you haven't flown a 109", but then who has?

 

 

56RAF_phoenix

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A number of us have flown light aircraft, to a lesser or greater extent. One is an ex-fighter pilot and used to fly F5s, so it'll be really interesting when that comes out in DCS.

It's very easy to say, "of course you haven't flown a 109", but then who has?

 

56RAF_phoenix

So do you think it's possible that someone with Eagle Dynamics and The Fighter Collection has these same qualifications? And that they consult with them as well? Edited by SharpeXB

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You should understand that I'm not trying to rubbish this sim. There's a lot to like in it and I wish my squad would fly it.

I merely pass on some of the reasons why they don't.

 

56RAF_phoenix

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Many people have sucess with the filter setting as well. I know people have trouble with this but there are many who don't. It's probably a controller issue.

Just about every flight sim plane I have (DCS RoF etc) is jumpy like this without adding some response curve.

 

I would like to throw in my 5 cents. I agree that adjusting the controller curves indeed does reduce wobbling. However, it just patches some things together that are broken in the game engine imho and adjusting the curves comes with a price to be paid. Reducing sensibility around the center may help to avoid oversteering induced by the wobble behaviour of the planes but it increases sensibility when you need some more input and it becomes extremely sensitive at the edge accelerating unpredictable behaviour.

 

As far as I can judge as an engineer the mechanism that were used to action the control surfaces would equate to a rather linear control curve. And any sound aircraft engineer would have made it so as close as possible as it allows the pilot to steer the plane as intuitively as possible which increases flight safety. 

 

 

 

Without graphs, exact dynamic responses of the aircraft to standardized input signals (step signals, ramp signals, etc.), frequency analysis, and other scientific methods and mathematical apparatus used in description of such phenomena - all this discussion about feelings of different people with different skills, experience and hardware, is useless. I am just amazed how this "wobble" topic comes up just in about every sim that tries to model and simulate non-linear aircraft dynamics, starting from Il-2, CLOD, DCS World, current Il2, etc. Once the devs would eliminate the "wobble" I am certain that another group of vocal individual would start a crusade against FM flying on rails all backed up with pilot accounts, feelings, experience, etc. As someone working in the field  automatic control system design and flight dynamics and also has RL piloting experience, I tend to believe that the developers got it right and we are just seeing more limitations of our controllers and forces we are applying, which is contrasting to what can be done in real life, but that's just my personal opinion that everyone is entitled to agree or disagree.

 

Rudolph, I agree that physics are non linear (I am an aerospace engineer with specialisation in flight mechanics). And of course our control devices are not prone to depict the ww2 reality. However, I do expect a flight sim developer to take the limitations of hardware into account in order to produce a behaviour with modern computer hardware to be as close to realistic plane behaviour with realistic control devices as possible. It may be an extremely hard job to do and perfection may never be reached but it should be possible to come close to it.

Edited by sturmkraehe
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I also think that the wobble on the last vid is due to the pilots flying style I.e. Constant quick correcttions/overcorretions.

 

I actually like this more dynamic flight models as it make you really think how to fly smooth.

 

But as to whether its correct behaviour I don't know and don't think we will know until we can do a full CFD analysis, wind tunnel tests followed by really life flight testing lol

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I know we've covered this a whole bunch of times but since your tabletop stick is smaller than the real thing, your only choices are adding a response curve or going with an extension.

And as far as a curve making your outer ranges too sensitive, IMO it really doesn't. There are planes I have some extreme curves on in RoF and they're still actuate and controllable even at the edge. Some RoF planes can actually fly with the stick fully back. So either because you don't usually fly at the extreme stick range or maybe the planes just aren't as sensitive there I'm not sure. But the "S" curve in practice doesn't cause a problem. Mathematically yes but not in practice.

Edited by SharpeXB

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With appropriate joystick settings I don't get the wobble.

 

What might be the case, is that the devs made the game so that every single joystick has a linear response that people can then tweak to suit their joystick and their preferences.  It seems that simple to me.  I'm sure they'd have programmed in appropriate curves if they could find time and spare cash to program umpteen different setups. 

 

For now, play with the settings and see what you find out.  Start by setting the centre dead zone to 8% with 100% sensitivity across all controls, and go from there.  It'll take maybe 30 minutes to fine tune as you can do it all in game.  Simples. 

 

von Tom

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What might be the case, is that the devs made the game so that every single joystick has a linear response that people can then tweak to suit their joystick and their preferences. It seems that simple to me. I'm sure they'd have programmed in appropriate curves if they could find time and spare cash to program umpteen different setups.

 

Right. The best thing is to just design the game 100% sensitive and then let the player dial it back as desired.

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Examble wobbling FW190

 

 

Now I finally got it. I noticed it very early in the game. i thought it was my controller setiings. since that i always trim my AC nose down (full or amost full down) for level flight and combat to avoid this tendency to climb at all times. if this is "wobbling" - yes it's annoying and probably unrealistic but managable.

Edited by indiaciki

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To counter the 'extreme wobbling Fw190' vid, have a look at this by a well known 'ace'

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L0IndKxYVg

 

very little wobbling, or issues with tracking a target, watch to the end or skip to the action (6 mins +)

 

how can both videos be right  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot

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Even I can manage not to wobble.... and I couldn't be further from being an Ace DAKPILOT...

 

It's just a question of using some curve in the pitch and yaw axis, and instead of returning the stick abruptly to neutral, return it by holding it during the course... 

 

It works for me now...  I can live with that - and maybe one day buy a good FF stick.

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To counter the 'extreme wobbling Fw190' vid, have a look at this by a well known 'ace'

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L0IndKxYVg

 

very little wobbling, or issues with tracking a target, watch to the end or skip to the action (6 mins +)

 

how can both videos be right  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

this is my experience with BoS

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In the past I have experienced that wobble and it was with my MS FFB2 stick. But I do not experience it with my Thurstmaster t16000m.

I went to my backup computer where my old MS FF2 stick is used and fired up the game from that PC. I expected the wobble. I rarely got it. I flew with that wobble in the old IL-2 1946 too.

So I don't know what to conclude.

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