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What's the wobbling thing ?

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Yes I agree - the FM plays a much bigger part than the different controler sensitivity.

And please dont consider it as an attempt to shift the debate as it was far from it.

The intention was to take this aspect also in consideration.

 

The 109F4, G2 v 109 E7 stability difference is indeed puzzling.

From the start I had considerations about the F4 / G2 engine centrifugal force effect which is very pronounced on those two and not so prominent on the E7, Lagg, Yak....

Perhaps its as simple as the engines crank / flywheel having too high moment of inertia.

Remember - this rotational mass does have a significant dynamic stability influance.

How are the engine / rotational parts different betwen the E7 / F4 / G2 / Yak / P 40?

And this influances both pitch and roll which are the stabilities which are in doubt.

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I don't doubt that. You can tell from discussions on RoF, many players don't understand how it works or what the graph means.

 

Personally I find it invaluable, It is a great menu and from Han's last post it sounds like they'll consider bringing it to BoS

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/?p=317593

They can just hide it on another page "Advanced Settings". The simple sensitivity slider is enough for most players.

 

Also it's worth remembering how it ended up in RoF originally. If you go back to the Petrovich explaination of joystick behavior, written before that menu was introduced. He refers to solutions A B and C and which he decided on. Well now in the RoF menu you can decide for yourself which solution to use or make your own. The WWI planes, most of them, don't have trim controls which makes the pitch axis solution more of a problem than BoS. A simple slider for sensitivity wouldn't work in RoF.

Edited by SharpeXB

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Funny thing is that most guys I have been flying together with ingame have complained about controller settings being "complicated" and difficult to understand due to misleading describtions (like "sensitivity" and "noise filter").

 

I never have encountered sby having issues with RoF's controll scheme. Personally I have been flying a long time with only default axis setting to get used to all those different biplanes before even bothering experimenting with some curves which worked out good. And especially with so many as different aircrafts as in BoS and BoM plane specific controll settings are very handy if not nessecary.

 

This however is not a solution for sth like the obvious pitch and yaw behaviour in this game but can help against non-linear throttles for example.

 

BTW: I recently stated flying the Bf-110 and it's definetly the most natural aircraft in BoS judging by my real expirience. It has no overdone Yaw-Roll and it's pitch behaviour is a lot nicer than on the light fighters. It really feels way different than other aircraft in BoS/M (in a good way).

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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Funny thing is that most guys I have been flying together with ingame have complained about controller settings being "complicated" and difficult to understand due to misleading describtions (like "sensitivity" and "noise filter").

 

I never have encountered sby having issues with RoF's controll scheme. Personally I have been flying a long time with only default axis setting to get used to all those different biplanes before even bothering experimenting with some curves which worked out good. And especially with so many as different aircrafts as in BoS and BoM plane specific controll settings are very handy if not nessecary.

 

This however is not a solution for sth like the obvious pitch and yaw behaviour in this game but can help against non-linear throttles for example.

 

BTW: I recently stated flying the Bf-110 and it's definetly the most natural aircraft in BoS judging by my real expirience. It has no overdone Yaw-Roll and it's pitch behaviour is a lot nicer than on the light fighters. It really feels way different than other aircraft in BoS/M (in a good way).

I agree 100% ,infact this is something felt by many SIM veterans,and impossible that the developers they dont know what we talking about it.

And if after 14 pages they has not yet intervene on this topic....suggests that we have the only alternative to find a remedy from ourselves...even if it's will be always a compromise in comparison about what they could do.

Edited by Ltn_F_Baracca

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The Bf 109F4 was one of the first aircraft modeled in BOS. It was created even before elevator trim was introduced. Its FM has been modified countless of times. The G2 came also during the BOS open beta phase and has undertaken lots of FM changes as well. Direct comparison to the Bf 109E7 leads me to the conclusion that the older FMs are less fine tuned than the new ones. That would make sense since the game evolves over time. On the other hand any revisions to already existing FMs cost money and consume man days available. Still I have high hope that the F4 and G2 are not totally abandoned and the devs will update their FMs to match the quality of the E7.

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The Bf 109F4 was one of the first aircraft modeled in BOS. It was created even before elevator trim was introduced. Its FM has been modified countless of times. The G2 came also during the BOS open beta phase and has undertaken lots of FM changes as well. Direct comparison to the Bf 109E7 leads me to the conclusion that the older FMs are less fine tuned than the new ones. That would make sense since the game evolves over time. On the other hand any revisions to already existing FMs cost money and consume man days available. Still I have high hope that the F4 and G2 are not totally abandoned and the devs will update their FMs to match the quality of the E7.

Judging from ROF experience it could take years, but hope die last.

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We have to be carefull when comparing the Bf-109 F and G to the E model but generally speaking I have about the same impression. Still, take the Lagg-3 for example. It was the very first flyable aircraft in BoS and has arguably a more pleasurable FM than both the Bf-109s. So it's not right to assume new planes = better FMs.

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And if after 14 pages they has not yet intervene on this topic....

That's because after 14 pages, still no real information has been presented which they can respond to. If you want a response from them you need to have some actual flight test data regarding stability for the planes modeled here in BoS and then compare that to performance in the game, with a replay track. Vague terms like "rubber-banding" and "wobbling" aren't something that can actually be evaluated.

Also much of this behavior is due to the nature of PC controllers and they answered that question years ago in RoF, the response has been linked here several time and explains the issue perfectly.

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I don't doubt that. You can tell from discussions on RoF, many players don't understand how it works or what the graph means.

 

Personally I find it invaluable, It is a great menu and from Han's last post it sounds like they'll consider bringing it to BoS

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/?p=317593

 

Well, "advanced options" is for "advanced" users. Leave the "casual players" with their... mouses.  :)

 

Anyway only if people have option and can start deal with this options they will learn something more "advanced"...

 

BTW - My previous post is the first answer there: http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2965-voprosy-razrabotchikam-2/page-19?do=findComment&comment=368620

Edited by Sokol1

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@ Sokol

Mice won't leave their WT.

 

1. It's WT's most popular/easy/supported device.

2. WT is free - no chance to compete there...
 

Edited by ST_ami7b5

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That's because after 14 pages, still no real information has been presented which they can respond to. If you want a response from them you need to have some actual flight test data regarding stability for the planes modeled here in BoS and then compare that to performance in the game, with a replay track. Vague terms like "rubber-banding" and "wobbling" aren't something that can actually be evaluated.

Also much of this behavior is due to the nature of PC controllers and they answered that question years ago in RoF, the response has been linked here several time and explains the issue perfectly.

 

Just a moment!

The only person that can to give us some information to formule and compare the our resarch and date......they are the same developers.

 

But if we dont know them date...what we can compare ?

 

And dont begin whit that legend idea about that they can to expose that data, because it's ridicoul,we dont talking about KGB file, but just data about old WW II planes,and then,a public information, where it's possible access whit a request and valid identity documents....at least this applies in Europe,i dont know in URSS.

 

Moreover, as a customer, i do not have to do a course in aeronautics to understand, if a plane, virtually speaking, has some peculiarities that are not very clear if compared with others SIM FLIGHT.

Still less make a thousand calculations to find out where is the problem,..that's them job...and not mine!

And also assuming that all their data are correct, it does not mean that the game engine is able to simulate them properly.

 

Sorry but i begin to believe that you only want to find an alternative to the conversation, creating nonsense answers, only to create other endless pages of gossip without end.

 

But anyway there is the free will, and then,do not pay attention to what i said, and go ahead with your interventions as sower of the wind.

 

 

Regard

Edited by Ltn_F_Baracca

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 But if we dont know them date...what we can compare ?

 

I don't know what sort of procedure is done by a real test pilot to evaluate such a quality in an airplane. But if there is one, then the necessary test for the game would be to just recreate it there. They just showed us an example of the test of the flaps behavior. It needs to be something specific like that. It's possible that this sort of test is so subjective that it can't be quantified by simple numbers. How do you mathematically define "wobbling"?

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Well, "advanced options" is for "advanced" users.

Well even one of the "advanced user" made Steam Guide for RoF (otherwise very nicely done) is wrong in its explaination of how to use the response menu. "Wrong" meaning that if someone follows that advice they're making the plane even more sensitive which is usually not the goal.

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For anyone who hasn't seen the RoF menu, this is a good explaination of how it works.

 

What is shown here by pushing down the pitch curve and making it asymmetrical is why RoF needs that menu.

Edited by SharpeXB
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The Bf 109F4 was one of the first aircraft modeled in BOS. It was created even before elevator trim was introduced. Its FM has been modified countless of times.

It's had stabilizer trim from the very beginning. Elevator trim, OTOH, it's never had. ;)

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It's had stabilizer trim from the very beginning. Elevator trim, OTOH, it's never had. ;)

I believe the Bf 109F4 was first introduced with stabilizer trim missing. Regardless of trim technology it had no trim when it was introduced to Beta BOS.

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Yes, you are talking about Alpha though. Elevator trim was introduced after the Lagg-3 and Bf-109 F were implemented. And, by that time, you could actually bind it on axis.....

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Well, it will be fun to see how the F-2 handles when it comes out. Either it's similar to the F-4, in which case it's still enjoyable, or has a more "tuned" FM like the E-7. 

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Just reading this long topic....

 

If some of you have an external soft, controlling your JS curve :

 

You should set a "multiplicator" of 0,8 to 0,9 to your pitch axis = limiting the max range of your pitch axis, and reducing the input mouvment translation in-game.

 

It prevent to have full deflection, but it simulate a longer stick : you will move more your stick to have same mouvment.

 

The wobble thing then COMPLITLY disappear. So this is not a problem of FM.

 

In BOS like in any flight simulator, the lightness of control, which was hugely appreciated by pilots (fw 190 for example), turns to be a disadvantage, due to the standardized length and response of input, which lead to instability and wobbling g.... And the lack of exhaustion for the pilot.

 

And the heavy controls, exhausting for pilots, is now an advantage, because it allows more stability and precision.

 

I think that no one can do a thing about it, hardware limitation inherent to any flight Sim

Edited by =LAL=Trinkof

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You should set a "multiplicator" of 0,8 to 0,9 to your pitch axis = limiting the max range of your pitch axis, and reducing the input mouvment translation in-game.

It prevent to have full deflection, but it simulate a longer stick : you will move more your stick to have same mouvment.

 

The trouble with limiting the range is you need the full deflection for takeoff, landing and other actions like recovering stalls. The usual solution is just an S-curve like you get by reducing the sensitivity in game.

Or look at PeterZvan's idea of making the curve segmented where your response is flat but sharp at the ends. If we get the RoF style menu more solutions become easily available.

Actually if you watch the RoF demo video, the S curve used for the rudder example looks about like what I think PZ is talking about. Look how flat the curve is across the middle and it'd a bit sharper at the ends.

Edited by SharpeXB

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The wobble thing then COMPLITLY disappear. So this is not a problem of FM.

Thats a false statement. It's only your sensation tied to your setup and flying style. I'm sure that if you performed tests such as Peshoon and me you'd get similar results despite reduced multiplier.

 

Not nessecary to mention how dusadvantaged you are with reduced multipliers. That is maybe good for FSX, but not an option in a conbat flight sim.

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Just reading this long topic....

 

If some of you have an external soft, controlling your JS curve :

 

You should set a "multiplicator" of 0,8 to 0,9 to your pitch axis = limiting the max range of your pitch axis, and reducing the input mouvment translation in-game.

 

It prevent to have full deflection, but it simulate a longer stick : you will move more your stick to have same mouvment.

 

The wobble thing then COMPLITLY disappear. So this is not a problem of FM.

 

In BOS like in any flight simulator, the lightness of control, which was hugely appreciated by pilots (fw 190 for example), turns to be a disadvantage, due to the standardized length and response of input, which lead to instability and wobbling g.... And the lack of exhaustion for the pilot.

 

And the heavy controls, exhausting for pilots, is now an advantage, because it allows more stability and precision.

 

I think that no one can do a thing about it, hardware limitation inherent to any flight Sim

And how do we set "multiplicator" of 0,8 to 0,9 , i don't see that in the options settings .

Anyway enough of all this , 15 pages back and forth .

I hold no hope of it being fixed any time soon , its been an issue for some time .

Best go and fly online .

Edited by II./JG77_Con

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I hold no hope of it being fixed any time soon , its been an issue for some time .

Best go and fly online .

 

Exactly!

 

This is untouchable awesome SIM,without any opportunity to judgment by the consumer because the our opinions are questionable,their certainties instead are indisputable.

The modesty and humility...it is not them strong point.

And they're right to do so as long as there will be those who finance them.

Edited by Ltn_F_Baracca

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Exactly!

 

This is untouchable awesome SIM,without any opportunity to judgment by the consumer because the our opinions are questionable,their certainties instead are indisputable.

The modesty and humility...it is not them strong point.

And they're right to do so as long as there will be those who finance them.

 

You are free to create your own game if you're not happy with this one.

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You are free to create your own game if you're not happy with this one.

 

Compliment!

 

I see that your arguments are worthy of the title you're playing.

 

Anyway.....even if it was already pretty obvious...thanks for your confirmation about what i said !.

 

PS.

If instead of giving some silly answers, you had followed this thread,and even others one, maybe you'd understand why about my weariness/disappointment about FM.

And just in case , i have paied this title just like you , and that's means ,that your game it's also the mine, and if you dont like my criticism...i am sorry for it , but that's your problem my friend.

If you belived that any opinions or adjudgement different about the your it's a conspiracy to destroy a game , dont buy next time a game sold commercially , stay away from the forums , and develops your unassailable single player game.

 

And remember!

 

The division which is created inside of the players, by sowing the seeds of discord,it's perfect not to improve and grow a game , and that's an old diversion trick that always works ....but at the end will remain only those that they think exactly as the developers themselves...namely blind fans.

 

Regards

Edited by ITAF_F_Baracca

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If instead of giving some silly answers, you had followed this thread,and even others one, maybe you'd understand why about my weariness/disappointment about FM.

 

I don't care about your weariness/disappointment about the FM.  It's also not my problem that you're complaining.  I'm not on the dev team, so I don't care about your complaints.  

 

But there is one big problem for the people who continue to complain about the development of this game.  No one else is developing realistic WW2 air combat sims at the moment.  If you're not happy with this game, you're going to have to develop your own game.  

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its hard to understand how they went so backwards with the flight modelling in il2.. the well modeled planes in rise of flight, like the se5a, feel great.. probably close to the best of any sim. These il2 planes are a wobbly mess for the most part. The flight models in dcs (p-51 and fw-190d9) feel much better, but their gunnery / damage model is pretty bad and there's no realistic maps or scenarios :(

 

 

il2 clod w/team fusion is definitely the best "all round" ww2 sim atm in my opinion  (considering all factors)

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I'll chime in here. Let's disregard DCS and COD for the moment, they each have their own pros and cons. I'll stick to the BoS flight model in the discussion. 

 

I've been playing BoS mostly offline, I fire it up every now and then to see how the FM feels. It would be unfair to describe the whole experience as a wobbling mess. Because at high speeds the FM does things well - you get a sense of speed which is achieved visually (feels fairly rigid and well balanced with not much wobble at high speeds) and via audio (wind sounds, perhaps sometimes misplaced, but certainly help the experience). 

 

However there are still areas where I'm very much put off for lack of a better word.

 

Low speed handling - Try a hammerhead and then try to stabilize the plane once it points to the ground. It does it eventually, but wobbles about before it stabilizes. Watch the yak-52 video that was posted by devs a few days back:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A32ADDVkfXo

 

He goes into a hammerhead at 1:30, airspeed showing 0. Then recovers the plane immediately(!) without wobble (just a slight spring-back), at 100kmh (and increasing of course). Now try and do this in game with the yak-1, which devs say is the closest airframe to yak-52. You will not be able to reproduce the results. Low speed handling is sluggish and wobbly. 

 

There are other areas that feel strange. with abrupt movements some aircraft don't want to stay with new pitch directions and spring back to varying degrees. Yet others stay within the new pitch. 

 

Rudder feels often sluggish and on some aircraft introduce so much roll that it cannot be countered with the aileron. I thought rudder was built into airplanes to adjust yaw...

 

Ailerons on some aircraft are almost dead at just under 300kmh.

 

In short, at least for me - there is a long way to go to a balanced and enjoyable FM. Whilst some of it is good, other areas just take away from the experience.  I'm hoping this will improve because we're all here to enjoy a hobby, that's why we bought BoS and want it to succeed.

 

If things change for the better I'll continue to support the devs and will get BOM as well. But for now, I don't see it happening. 

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I don't know what sort of procedure is done by a real test pilot to evaluate such a quality in an airplane. But if there is one, then the necessary test for the game would be to just recreate it there. They just showed us an example of the test of the flaps behavior. It needs to be something specific like that. It's possible that this sort of test is so subjective that it can't be quantified by simple numbers. How do you mathematically define "wobbling"?

Well in modern FBW aircraft you can generate precise standardized step control inputs to evaluate oscillatory characteristics of an aircraft around all axes, it can also be done manually, after you have data you have many mathematical methods to evaluate oscillations (e.g. Bode diagrams), these characteristics can be computed even without having any flight data and are carefully evaluated in the stage of aircraft design using dynamic mathematical models. The necessary damping aircraft characteristics are defined in EASA rules and are specifically evaluated for professional flight sims (see the link below). The whole topic of of this "wobbling" characteristics is something which takes years of study, strong mathematical background, knowledge of aerodynamics, physics and cybernetics ... yet most people here are trying to describe this highly scientific topic by feelings and this really amazes me, and it is no wonder that it hasn't even been established what the wobbling is :) Just an interesting video of a wobbling small model aircraft in wind tunnel:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtKfQFXTFuk

 

See also this EASA document for professional flight simulators evaluation to get an idea how frequency characteristics of simulated aircraft are evaluated:

 

https://easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/CS-FSTD(A)%20Initial%20Issue.pdf

 

 

 

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I'll chime in here. Let's disregard DCS and COD for the moment, they each have their own pros and cons. I'll stick to the BoS flight model in the discussion. 

 

I've been playing BoS mostly offline, I fire it up every now and then to see how the FM feels. It would be unfair to describe the whole experience as a wobbling mess. Because at high speeds the FM does things well - you get a sense of speed which is achieved visually (feels fairly rigid and well balanced with not much wobble at high speeds) and via audio (wind sounds, perhaps sometimes misplaced, but certainly help the experience). 

 

However there are still areas where I'm very much put off for lack of a better word.

 

Low speed handling - Try a hammerhead and then try to stabilize the plane once it points to the ground. It does it eventually, but wobbles about before it stabilizes. Watch the yak-52 video that was posted by devs a few days back:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A32ADDVkfXo

 

He goes into a hammerhead at 1:30, airspeed showing 0. Then recovers the plane immediately(!) without wobble (just a slight spring-back), at 100kmh (and increasing of course). Now try and do this in game with the yak-1, which devs say is the closest airframe to yak-52. You will not be able to reproduce the results. Low speed handling is sluggish and wobbly. 

 

There are other areas that feel strange. with abrupt movements some aircraft don't want to stay with new pitch directions and spring back to varying degrees. Yet others stay within the new pitch. 

 

Rudder feels often sluggish and on some aircraft introduce so much roll that it cannot be countered with the aileron. I thought rudder was built into airplanes to adjust yaw...

 

Ailerons on some aircraft are almost dead at just under 300kmh.

 

In short, at least for me - there is a long way to go to a balanced and enjoyable FM. Whilst some of it is good, other areas just take away from the experience.  I'm hoping this will improve because we're all here to enjoy a hobby, that's why we bought BoS and want it to succeed.

 

If things change for the better I'll continue to support the devs and will get BOM as well. But for now, I don't see it happening. 

 

Well said about low speed wobbling and spring effect with abrupt pitch changes.  DCS got it much better. Actually i think best flight model ( closing to RL flying immersion)  give their P-51.  BOS planes behave still strange casue of issues mentionen here.

Edited by 303_Kwiatek
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especially about Bf 109 models........recently Han said that Bf 109 E-7 has better tuned FM than other Bfs, and they want to fix this rudder bug, but only during winter-spring 2016.

Edited by bivalov

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especially about Bf 109 models........recently Han said that Bf 109 E-7 has better tuned FM than other Bfs, and they want to fix this rudder bug, but only during winter-spring 2016.

That's good news. Don't know why we're not getting told here though. It could calm many of the ongoing debates knowing devs are at fixing sth.

Hopefully the "rudder bug" contains tweaking of the rudder.-roll momentum.

Anyway thx for sharing, google translator really does a poor job on translating russian.

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I have pruned some of this thread... Let's not let things get personal guys.

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 If you're not happy with this game, you're going to have to develop your own game.  

 

But without you...how do I have fun? ...You're too cool!

 

:D

Edited by ITAF_F_Baracca

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But without you...how do I have fun? ...You're too cool!

 

:D

 

You'll have to find a way the "have fun" on your own.  I'm sure it's a familiar situation.   ;)

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especially about Bf 109 models........recently Han said that Bf 109 E-7 has better tuned FM than other Bfs, and they want to fix this rudder bug, but only during winter-spring 2016.

 

Winter - Spring 2016?

Long time, but it's better that nothing!....Anyway thx for that news even for who dont speak Russian.

 

Regards

Edited by ITAF_F_Baracca

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The wobble of the 109 is very unnatural.

Especially when operating the rudder, the 109 is no longer to control.

The performance of the machines have been implemented based on known data. But the 109 is still too much for the Russians.

The stability of the 109 was now simply deteriorated. Data are considered correct, flight behavior bad.
Now, the balance has been restored. It was already too Olegs times so who gets the loudest screams right. And Russian developers can best convince in Russian ;)

 

This video shows a 109 in flight. Of course there are modern equipment installed. But aerodynamics is the same. I can not see that the 109 so much as shaking in IL2 here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGhMGQst4lo

 

Just my opinion...

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All planes wobbling and got spring effect during pitch movements in BOS. But for some reason in 109/ Fw 190 it is most noticable. If these would be reduced in BOS i think flight immersion would be much improved.

 

I think more ideal would be combination of BOS and DCS flight behaviour in the air. It would be give the best immersion from virtual flying.

Edited by 303_Kwiatek

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