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indiaciki

What's the wobbling thing ?

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The ** only ** thing I do not like in BoS is the wobbling in the form of that rather fast return ( particularly in pitch ) to the trimmed AoA when we deflect the stick and then let go of it. Just that!  Ah... and I still think the prop effects are still a bit overdone, when, for instance, taxiing over a paved rw with the G2 or F4, at 1000 RPM, tailwheel locked, I still have to use a good deal of rudder to keep the aircraft going straight...

 

Observations in relation to the flight model BF 109.

 

That **only** thing that you dont like ,that damn pitch effect,it's enough for ruin the experience of a flight,in real flight and in virtual world...for me of course!

At this point it does not matter, if later this title,it has some innovations that make it superior in certain technical prescriptions physical, if i MUST spend my whole time to trim for make a little more stable the flight all the time.

 

As you well know, the trim adjustment is used mainly for navigation on a stabilization on the flight.

It's use is strictly required for this, it is crucial to a precision flying without giving them constantly to make the pressure kept on the yoke.

It's obvious that with each change of speed,you have to trim again if you want to fly level, but if i want, i can fly without trim and use the throttle to find the right compromise between speed and stabilization of the aircraft,even if obviously this procedure will be far more complex, and slow, which use the trim.

It's logical then to see, if a plane tends to pitch up and you do not use the trim, it will have a slower response in a nosedive of when it is leveled ... but this is absolutely right!

 

I have never flown on a musschersmith, and certainly i will not never this opportunity, but remains hard to think that one of the most advanced aircraft in those era, it's penalized by a series of circumstances that it does become a target training by polygon for Soviet aircraft.

 

Each plane has its strengths and weaknesses, if we compare it with other models in its class,then let's give this justice, and have fun without going into too much historical detail, but simply differentiating the characteristics of each plane, so that who will use a technique more appropriate, for that model,he will result advantaged against his opponent .... I do not seem to ask for the moon!

 

 

Regard

Edited by Ltn_F_Baracca

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What I still don't get is why the problem should lie within the game when some people experience it and others not. It seems to be a phenomenon that not everyone experiences.

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What I still don't get is why the problem should lie within the game when some people experience it and others not. It seems to be a phenomenon that not everyone experiences.

Hi Jordan.

 

I sincerely would like to know the same thing.

But it is undeniable that certain aircraft suffer more than others from this problem.

And this already perceived as abnormal and in defect in respect of a balance in the game....indifferently for those who feel it more or less.

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http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/aero/stability.htm

 

I'd say that initially BoS aircraft behave like defined in the above text regarding "totally stable" aircraft....

 

We would like them to behave more like "normally or positively stable"...  which they become after the initial reaction of "overdone (?) static stability"

 

Of course I believe that some aircraft models can also exhibit neutral pitch stability. I actually thought the P40-E was one such aircraft, and believe I did read somwhere it had neutral pitch stability for pitch up inputs, but I never found the reference again :-/ ....

 

The p51d in DCS is modeled with, under a wide range of CoG locations; neutral pitch stability for positive pitch inputs, as is widely described on many RW  test flight documents.

 

And, some very interesting read here: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a319976.pdf

Edited by Mighty-MOUSE

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http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/aero/stability.htm

 

I'd say that initially BoS aircraft behave like defined in the above text regarding "totally stable" aircraft....

 

We would like them to behave more like "normally or positively stable"...  which they become after the initial reaction of "overdone (?) static stability"

 

And, some very interesting read here: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a319976.pdf

 Thx so much about that link M8...very usefull!

Edited by Ltn_F_Baracca

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Barraca, Sorry but to say it is unnecessary to trim an aircraft unless you want to relieve control  pressure in the cruise is just not correct, probably even more so with Bf109  stabilator (try pulling out of a dive in a incorrectly trimmed 109)

 

I always thought having the flap and trim wheel next to each other on 109 was a design feature to enable simultaneous operation when deploying 'combat' flaps which was a known and legitimate tactic. (lots of pilot documentation on (combat) flap use in 109)

 

Earlier in the thread there was the 'experten' 190 vid I would expect he was always correctly trimmed and in balanced flight with ball centered

 

Mighty mouse, if you don't let go of the stick you wont experience the unpleasant effect  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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+1 !

 

This is what I'd like to hear: feedback from people who have actual flying experience, and comparing the sense of flight in BoS to other sims. I think that's a really good basis for working out whether we have a problem or not. We could argue around maths and joystick curves forever, but it gets us nowhere.

 

I have no real flight experience, but I find it really interesting you talk about lack of feeling of mass. This was exactly my sense coming from other flight sims: DCS, original IL-2, CloD and MSFS. All of these sims no doubt have their failings in terms of flight model, but for me the sense of masslessness is fairly unique to BoS. So I would be really interested whether real world pilots have the same sense that I do, or not :-)

 

My background:

 

  • Civilian aircraft: Cessna 150, Cessna 152, Cessna 172, DA-20, PA-28, Super Cub. Probably only around 120 hours in all types combined.
  • Warbirds: Stearman, T-6, P-51. Around 4 hours total combined.
  • Military: T-6II, T-38C, F-16. Currently flying another jet that I won't go into detail about online. Around 1000 hours total.

 

I've been playing flight sims for as long as I can remember, but the original IL-2 is what got me seriously into flying, so I'm still dedicated to the sim community despite what my day job is.

 

BoS/BoM excels in many categories, and is overall an outstanding sim. But there is definitely an issue regarding stability. A little bit of pitch instability (I think this is where we get most of the "massless" feeling) exacerbated by the yaw instability that's been present in this sim since day 1 (albeit toned down by the devs over time in various game updates).

 

IMO, DCS is the closest sim to what flying an airplane truly feels like. My stick time in a P-51 is somewhat limited, but it feels spot on in the game. And I have enough jet time to tell you that their models for modern jets are excellent. The MiG-21 is easily the finest FM ever brought to the PC.

 

My 2 cents.

  • Upvote 1

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Barraca, Sorry but to say it is unnecessary to trim an aircraft unless you want to relieve control  pressure in the cruise is just not correct, probably even more so with Bf109  stabilator (try pulling out of a dive in a incorrectly trimmed 109)

 

I always thought having the flap and trim wheel next to each other on 109 was a design feature to enable simultaneous operation when deploying 'combat' flaps which was a known and legitimate tactic. (lots of pilot documentation on (combat) flap use in 109)

 

Earlier in the thread there was the 'experten' 190 vid I would expect he was always correctly trimmed and in balanced flight with ball centered

 

Mighty mouse, if you don't let go of the stick you wont experience the unpleasant effect  ;)

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Ciao Dakpilot!

 

How you can easily see my english it's very close to the ciphered code Enigma,and i apologize whit all users for it...i am too off course to learn it at my age. :)

 

Anyway...I did not mean that i do not need the trim, of course we need it,but only that the leveling of the aircraft is directly proportional to the speed of the aircraft itself.

So in the most hectic situations, where it is no longer possible to trim, you have to use, as alternative, the yoke and the throttle.

 

Regards

 

PS.

 

I made a discovery about to smooth the issue that we are talking about in this thread.

I would like you check it!

Edited by Ltn_F_Baracca

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What I still don't get is why the problem should lie within the game when some people experience it and others not. It seems to be a phenomenon that not everyone experiences.

Been saying this for some time now , Joysticks , settings and curves . I don't think Some joysticks were tested with the making of BOS . Not 100% sure .

Yet today T.A.R.G.E.T. software wont recognize my throttle buttons with in BOS .

The Yaw is over done , and the wobble in the 109 .

As Seen in the video i post that 109 is flying nice and stable . No bouncy bouncy 109 .

 

I can fly JaBo .... :biggrin:

Edited by II./JG77_Con

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Been saying this for some time now , Joysticks , settings and curves . I don't think Some joysticks were tested with the making of BOS . Not 100% sure .

Yet today T.A.R.G.E.T. software wont recognize my throttle buttons with in BOS .

I can fly JaBo .... :biggrin:

 

???

 

Strange because the mine work !

 

Did you check or test the firmware...just in case!

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  if you don't let go of the stick you wont experience the unpleasant effect

 

So certain are you? Listen to Obi-Wan you will...

"Use the Force Luke, let go!"

Edited by SharpeXB

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So certain are you? Listen to Obi-Wan you will...

"Use the Force Luke, let go!"

 

Not quite that simple...

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Been saying this for some time now , Joysticks , settings and curves . I don't think Some joysticks were tested with the making of BOS . Not 100% sure .

Yet today T.A.R.G.E.T. software wont recognize my throttle buttons with in BOS .

 

I can use mine but I have to set a profile and I have to program some of the buttons.  For example, the throttle coolie switch (on the front where the index finger rests) can be used for flaps without programming, but I had to program the buttons on the base for bombs and rockets.

 

PM me your email if you want me to email you my profile.

 

von Tom

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Not quite that simple...

Your joystick can deceive you, don't trust it. Let go your conscious self and act on instinct.

Edited by SharpeXB

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Your joystick can deceive you, don't trust it. Let go your conscious self and act on instinct.

 

I never " let go" of the joystick.

:joy:

Edited by dburne

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My background:

(...)

My 2 cents.

 

Thanks for posting your impressions - one of the most valuable contributions in this thread and your background just underlines your point with a credibility hopefully few will question.

 

I'm also in the "too-much-wobbling" club, btw - I'd love to spend more time in the 109 but it's just too damn annoying for me to make it fun.

Oh and I use an (almost) full-length FFB joystick and MFG Crosswinds so I doubt it's (just) the equipment.

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Aha. Just posted in Anouncements.

Their pilot testing the effect of a "spring centered" joystick in flaps employment.

Edited by SharpeXB

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Aha. Just posted in Anouncements.

Their pilot testing the effect of a "spring centered" joystick in flaps employment.

 

 

Not sure I see the relevance, that is demonstrating the effects of flap deployment in regards to the pitch of the plane, not necessarily the pitch behavior as a result of moving the joystick and returning on the y axis.

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Not sure I see the relevance, that is demonstrating the effects of flap deployment in regards to the pitch of the plane, not necessarily the pitch behavior as a result of moving the joystick and returning on the y axis.

Right of course that's not the behavior being discussed here but it illustrates several points

- The anomalies created by using spring centered joysticks

- An example of a properly asked and responded to FM question.

- That the team does actually try this stuff out in real aircraft with a real pilot.

 

So. Perhaps somebody could format this question properly for the team and maybe they'll test it out in the same manner :pilot:

Edited by SharpeXB
  • Upvote 1

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Not sure I see the relevance, that is demonstrating the effects of flap deployment in regards to the pitch of the plane, not necessarily the pitch behavior as a result of moving the joystick and returning on the y axis.

True, but the point is, that the centering force of the flightsick in real plane is the airflow over the elevator, not the spring of a joystick (this problem also exists on the FFB sticks though). I now this is pretty obvious, but running these tests which started this topic (elevator input and then letting the stick go and watching what happens), just can't possibly give realistic results with joysticks (neither spring centered, nor FFB).

Edited by Matt
  • Upvote 2

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Just reformulated the question - we have another thread asking the Team for a test, if possible...

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???

 

Strange because the mine work !

 

Did you check or test the firmware...just in case!

 

Yes ive ran firmware long time ago . All works  but thanks .

I can use mine but I have to set a profile and I have to program some of the buttons.  For example, the throttle coolie switch (on the front where the index finger rests) can be used for flaps without programming, but I had to program the buttons on the base for bombs and rockets.

 

PM me your email if you want me to email you my profile.

 

von Tom

Yes i have made a small profile with the switches that  don't  register when trying to input them straight into the game . works now .

Edited by II./JG77_Con

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2) All that diagram shows is that angle of attack is increased as you pull, and that angle equates to the difference between the flight path of the aircraft and the nose position (longitudinal axis) of the aircraft. I appreciate you trying to contribute to the discussion, but this is incredibly obvious to the experienced flight simmers and real life pilots who are trying to address the issue here. Of course the AoA will return to what's required for the last trimmed position once the stick is returned to a neutral position. What matters is that when controls are released back to neutral, there's unrealistic wandering/wobbling of the nose, and it's most apparent in the yaw axis. I think rubber banding is a poor word to describe it.

 

Seriously, if you don't have any real world time under your belt, you should probably read more than post to not dilute the efforts of those who are trying to come to a consensus regarding what exactly is going on here.

 

Sorry if I haven't been enough clear to be understood, but  no, I don't think this is very obvious. If your stick back to neutral, the equilibrium position of your plane (real or simulated), is obviously the direction of your plane's motion. Your plane's nose must to go down if you stop brutally to pull the stick -> wobbling. This is my point. And this effect must be exaggerated if your joystick has a dead zone around its neutral position.

 

And if some here are real pilots, I think that most of them are flying light airplanes, not a two tones fighter with a 1500 HP engine, build with the knowledge of the 1940 years, with small lift surfaces area (this is a ascertainment, not a critic. And this also doesn't mean that their opinions are not relevant). Because this is all about inertia, I understand that this effect could be very small on a modern light airplane.

 

And I don't like condescension. It's easy, and never bring anything to the discussion.

 

An other thing : those who complain that planes in BoS/BoM seem to have no weight are the same who are complaining about "wobbling". And I think that "wobbling" has a lot to do with weight and inertia....

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Maybe  sound like an idiot by now ( have another thread going - ROF curves for BOS). In ROF you can alter the curves any way you like incl. the neutral position of the joystick. Nobody seems to care. You can alter the FM in ROF and correct it. There's lots of control input devices - without curves like in ROF you can't tune them.The FM is random.

Edited by indiaciki

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Maybe sound like an idiot by now ( have another thread going - ROF curves for BOS). In ROF you can alter the curves any way you like incl. the neutral position of the joystick. Nobody seems to care. You can alter the FM in ROF and correct it. There's lots of control input devices - without curves like in ROF you can't tune them.The FM is random.

Well the menu in RoF doesn't change the FM. It just allows you among other things to make your curve asymmetrical. There isn't a need in BoS for that since the planes can just be trimmed with their controls. RoF planes for the most part don't have trim. So in RoF you can't make a curve work without also "trimming" the plane so the center of your stick is actually neutral.

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you can move the center also. did you try that? As I learnnd from this thread is that the center heavily depends on the joystick and spring you use. This may cause wobbling. And sesitivity around the center (curve) in case you have no null zone. which you should have in the first place. I can't really jugde that. All my RL flying was with a yoke and of those maybe 20-30h I was flying a twin - duchess with propellers going in differnt directions. no comparison.I have less than 5-6h in a single engine AC There was never verical wobbling in any AC I flew. turbulance, yes. There even is no wobbling while I'm flying BOS because my joystic is constantly moving. never in neutral.

Edited by indiaciki

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I do use the RoF menu to "trim" the aircraft in order to make the S curve effective. Otherwise it would be outside the center range of the joystick. But BoS planes can just be trimmed in the plane itself to accomplish the same thing.

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I think the trim in BOS is okay. the lettimg go of the joystick seem like a no go. it's sprimgs and digital. Sticks are under constant forces. analog. they react to airflow josticks don't. they go back to their physical center not the trimed one you trim an AC and let go the stick or yoke will not be neutral.Maybe that's why the 109 and 190 wobble more - because of stabilisers. Maybe they are not connected to the stick and weren't. maybe they are programmed wrong. I don't know.elevators are controlled by stick - pitch trim. 

 

If you fly the DCS P-51 you can trim her like she's on autopilot. no stabilisers. just trimming elevators, ailerons and rudder. I think the ju-87 is very much like that in BOS.

Edited by indiaciki

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An other thing : those who complain that planes in BoS/BoM seem to have no weight are the same who are complaining about "wobbling". And I think that "wobbling" has a lot to do with weight and inertia....

 

Nonolem, here you have:

 

1)  A real pilot ;

2) Someone who complains about the wobbling

3) Someone who thinks there's no problem with weight and inertia modeling in BoS, at least of them being reduced - quite on the contrary....

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I am wondering just how much of this issue is down to the fact that the camera is moving in the cockpit a lot when you maneuver.

If you pull hard in the pitch you immidiatly get the effect of the pilots body / head being pressed into the seat. It comes with a bit of a delay. And if you release (stabilise) the stick than the head returns. If you are switching between positive and negative g than what you see on the monitor from the cockpit view is a combination between the plane wobble and the pilot head wobble. This in turn exagerates the effect and is more prominent on the pitchs sensitive planes.

Because one than visually gets a double effect of plane wobble + head woble one can overcompensate too much - compensate for both wobbles instead of the necesary one -> plane wobble. Also the head movement wobble comes with a delay so if one compensates based on that information, than the compensation is too late / too high and just increases the plane wobble.

Here is where I think many of the complaints come from when compared to other sims. I havent flown DCS for ages though so I am not sure anymore how much the head movement is happening in DCS, but from my memory it was far less than BoS - or at least easier to follow and less disturbing.

 

I for one would really like to try out flying without the head movement in BoS - that would be much more of an indication of what is going on.

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No - this is not head shaking (I fly without head shaking anyway)

This effect is hard coded and cannot be disabeled.

Pull the stick and look at how much your aiming site moves - with head shake off.

Edited by PeterZvan

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Sorry if i introduce myself again, but i think that somebody here,he is interpreting a problem known to some of us, with a bad management of the movement of the control Joy, or failure to delicacy needed for good maneuverability.

Big wrong!....but Nonlem instead he was right: :rolleyes:

 

 

 

those who complain that planes in BoS/BoM seem to have no weight are the same who are complaining about "wobbling". And I think that "wobbling" has a lot to do with weight and inertia....

 

The only way to come back whit right proportions of the movement to control stick-aircraft,the reactivity,it's to use on the periferics,or device, the Joystick Curves tool.

In other words..the same set axis curves that was in ROF menu....that's all.

And if one day they will make a revolutionary patch that fixes everything ....much better,but right now it's the only solution-compromise,with the satisfaction of finally having a plane flying with the right reactions...and not a kite flying.  :biggrin: 

 

Ciao!

Edited by Ltn_F_Baracca

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I would really love to have a filter in this discussion to only show people who have flown planes for many hours versus those who just have played a lot of flight sims and got to grab a yoke once in a real aircraft. There's a pretty good mixture of people who know what they are talking about and people pulling assumptions out of their ass.  :P

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Been flying for real (gliders) for more than 35 yrs :-)

Been using sims since more than 25 yrs.

Edited by Mighty-MOUSE

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Career Pilot, flown owned and operated WWII era A/C now semi retired

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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I have MSFF2 and 109 and 190 wobble - i did learn to cope with it but sometimes i don't manage to do it and do wobble :) In contrary i don't notice any wobble when i fly Yak :) I noticed when i change trim possition in Yak - the physical joy is moving to new center position to and will stay there until i change trim. This behavior is not presented in 109 nor 190 but it shuld not be - becouse of stabilizator ? What with 190 it has stab or trim?

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Yesterday I did a simple test.

 

As the last time I've flown a Russian plane in BoS was in the tutorial, I decided to hop in a LaGG-3 for some testing.

 

The difference compared to a Bf109 was shocking. I pointed the nose somewhere, it went there. It almost felt like cheating, after struggling so hard with the controls on the Messer.

 

This is the exact same control setup, same pilot skill, same everything - except the plane. I was shocked.

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Have said it many times..

 

The two A/C which cause the most complaints/issues/worries are the two with a Stabilator...

 

coincidence....?

 

Common and well known Cessna Ga aircraft comment (not from me only flown a Cardinal for one hop)

 

"My Cardinal RG had a stabilator, though, and it was FAR more pitch sensitive than all the other Cessnas I have flown. That was only a concern when landing, as I tended to over-control it"

 

There are different handling attributes with Stabilator especially with trim, I would suggest this is where the modelling FM (may) need a tweak

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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