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What's the wobbling thing ?

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I realyy don't get it. First people started complaing the 109s were wobbling, Now it's the p-40? I'm really curious. I simply don't uderstand the concept. Could somebody explain it to me? 

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it's just that people tend to think that planes should fly straight and steady all the time, don't pay attention

always, will be people never happy with the FM, like when CloD was released and start the outcry with

the mechanical vs electrical gauges, everybody cry for realism but when implemented nobody likes it

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Why is the view blurry, especially the speed/rpm/gear indicator?

 

On topic, some people expect aircraft to fly on rails because that's what sims did 10 years ago.

Edited by King_Hrothgar

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Wait until we get PoV physics like in this video. Now that will be some complaining.

 

 

Funny that you say this... When I look at that Project Cars video on YouTube the first comment I see is this:

 

post-14246-0-92730700-1448320756_thumb.jpg

 

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Why is the view blurry, especially the speed/rpm/gear indicator?

 

Probably because the pilot's eyes are focusing on the track that's relatively far out.

 

I think DCS had (has?) a G-force head shake option, lots and lots of people hated it as well - you'd turn and instead of staying lined up with the sights the pilot's head went all over the place and back. I liked it :biggrin:

Edited by Lucas_From_Hell

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Funny that you say this... When I look at that Project Cars video on YouTube the first comment I see is this:

 

attachicon.gifProjectCars.JPG

I know right. I'd put him in the 'that's what they did ten years ago' group. Everyone wants and should be able to play their own way...how ever dated that might be. I'd love the option though. DoF too.

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planes fly in air. If anybody has flown a plane or flown in any plane knows that they "wobble". Even trains do. 

 

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Wait until we get PoV physics like in this video. Now that will be some complaining.

 

 

 

Oh i hate similar effects in other games and not just Realistic games... this effect when you can't see something right if you dont focus on it MAKE NO SENSE for Games... i mean you have that effect in real life if you look at the street so why having an ingame effect as well ?

 

Lets simulate the human eyes in game as a whole... make no sense but its quite the same effect.

 

Have fun... especial with the Blindspot not much diffrent to this blurry [Edited] :D

 

Netzhautlk-polarp.jpg

Edited by Bearcat
Language

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Have you ever fired a gun? or played basketball? tennis? Shot a penalty kick playing football in RL? That's what it is. In theory we all know how it's done. But RL is very different. This sim comes pretty close to RL as far as sims go.

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It definitely makes for more of a challenge in flying... But it does remind me of my brief stint behind the controls of a Cesna. The challenge since getting BoS was to learn to fly smoothly. It's tough to do well.

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Well, I believe the complain is about the way some / or all aircraft in BoS react to perturbations to their axis of pitch, roll and yaw, and this has to do with static and dynamic stability, and is influenced by many factors, in special prop effects in the case of these powerful fighters.

 

Pick the G2, for instance. Ste a situation where you're flying straght & level at say, 3000m, trim it properly and use 1,1 ATA.

 

Now push, or pull the stick and immediately release it to neutral, and watch the reaction of the aircraft to that perturbation.

 

Most of these aircraft exhibited neutral stability characteristics, wanting to stay with the "new pitch" inn this case, others were stable and tried to return to their trimmed speed / AoA... But the way you see it happening in BoS is a bit on the wobbling side... There's  slight sense of it being tied to a rubber band.

 

I've asked myself if this could be somehow overdone. It also affects the other axis, mainly yaw, but then again for instance the P-40e was known to be unstable in yaw ( hence the modifications that took place when the p51 was designed... )...

 

I believe the devs once replied to this complaints with a reasonable answer - the propwash effects were the main cause, and indeed if you repeat the same "perturbation" tests with your engine at negative propwash speed values or the engine off, you'll get different results. The effect is indeed prevalent at high propwash speed settings ( high power and slow speed... )

 

I have ended up accepting it the way it is, and have made many tests on my gliders ( IRL ), but a glider does not have a prop at in the nose :-) so, my results can't really be taken as a reference...

 

And... I am not even going to bring into this theme another sim, because that would end in a sim vs sim debate - useless because both have their strong and weak points, like anything in Life, but in the end, among all I have used so far, it's BoS / BoM the one I still find closer to what I believe must be the reality ...

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planes fly in air. If anybody has flown a plane or flown in any plane knows that they "wobble". Even trains do. 

 

 If more than one person is stating they believe the plane wobbles, then there is something to it and yes, I was one of them.  Before you start saying things you are completely, obviously unaware of, why not give the benefit of the doubt. You criticize and then make a silly statement like 'trains wobble". I happen to be an engineer for the Union Pacific Railroad and while they don't ride well most of the time, they don't "wobble"! Please!!!

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Well after kicking rudders for several thousand hours over the years in real planes, the behaviour of the P-40 when using the rudder just slightly even at high speeds seems very unrealistic and wobbly. None of my ppl and glider hours was done on WW2 warbirds mind you but try and ask any real pilot out there and they'd tell you, you don't move the nose of a plane like the nose of the in game P-40.

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P40 is so sensitive compared to other planes that is really hard to score the snapshot that might save you. Maybe it can be tone down by playing with the settings or just adapting your flying, but it's there.

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So I have no real flight experience so all I can do is compare one simulator to another. For me the planes in IL-2 BoS feel much lighter and more "floaty" than other flight sims I've played (mostly the DCS WW2 ones, but also CloD and WT and FSX before that). In some ways that makes them harder to fly, but in other ways it makes them easier - the plane feels like it responds to changes in the controls much more quickly. I honestly couldn't tell you which is more accurate, but it was something I definitely noticed.

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Well after kicking rudders for several thousand hours over the years in real planes, the behaviour of the P-40 when using the rudder just slightly even at high speeds seems very unrealistic and wobbly. None of my ppl and glider hours was done on WW2 warbirds mind you but try and ask any real pilot out there and they'd tell you, you don't move the nose of a plane like the nose of the in game P-40.

 

 

One of the problems we have in BoS is a single control input on different types of aircraft, it is possible to set up curve sensitivity to get an accurate feel, but then perhaps other aircraft with less/more control surface will feel odd

 

The FW190 had a bell crank system that actually gave lighter less sensitive movement initially, and more input with heavy input for easier accuracy.

 

Being able to set curves/sensitivity for individual aircraft would go a long way to be able to have a better experience,

 

A global setting which was then able to be modified per aircraft would be perfect

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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Have actually been thinking a lot recently that there should be more inherent turbulence

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It seems that there's a pretty easy way to find a "model" of what should be seen by the pilot during flight and in particular-during combat.

 

I'm sure there are thousands upon thousands of hours of aircraft identifiable gun camera footage available and it should be pretty easy to make a comparison of how the aircraft reacts during flight and in particular, high G flight.  I have to admit that in all the years of watching gun camera footage, I don't remember seeing ANYTHING that resembled these current characteristics.

 

Before I entered the Army to become a helicopter pilot I was an enlisted man in the Air Force. The Non Commissioned Officers club would show gun camera footage every day during happy hour so yeah, I've seen a lot of guncam footage!   :biggrin:

 

Helicopters are considered to be pretty "unstable" and ALL of them are at a hover if no automatic flight stabilization is used to enhance stability. In forward flight the static stability is neutral. Whether the deviation is induced by pilot input or external factors (turbulence, etc.) the helicopter will remain in the "disturbed state" until corrected by the pilot. I've flown helicopters with gunsights installed and even with that said, the helicopter would continue to "aim" exactly where I aimed it until I or turbulence "moved" the sight...

 

It appears to me that for an airplane to have these "wobbly" characteristics, the particular aircraft would have to be so perfectly balanced in a statically neutral state that it would be impossible to achieve this goal.

 

 

 

"SKIDS ARE FOR KIDS"

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Whatever settings you apply to your stick, it won't change anything about the oscillations in response to a perturbation in pitch, yaw or roll from a  trimmed state, level flight preferably.

 

There's more to it than just the stick calibration, although I agree that would be a welcomed feature...

 

But I'm not saying it's wrong the way it is !  I do not have enough knowledge or data to discuss it in a valuable way, so, I either accept it as it is or refuse to - I decided to accept :-)

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Wait until we get PoV physics like in this video. Now that will be some complaining.

 

Stop saying POV Physics, that isn't physics going on. It's just another head shake/camera motion added in to give the illusion of the head bouncing. There already is head shake going on in BoS.

Edited by FuriousMeow

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Furious!

 

'Head shake'?? 'Camera motion'?? 'Head bouncing'?? 

 

Sounds a lot like physics to me. :scratch_one-s_head:

 

And BoS's 'head shake' ,like RoF's 'head shake', comes across as cockpit shake.

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You criticize and then make a silly statement like 'trains wobble". I happen to be an engineer for the Union Pacific Railroad and while they don't ride well most of the time, they don't "wobble"! Please!!!

Obviously you've never operated a f40 with truck hunting issues. Going downhill in idle they wobble all over the place. Feels like the track is going to roll over the entire time that engine does that crap. Get back into power and it goes away. The weight of the cars pulling against the power of the engine straightens the engine and stops the wobbling.

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None of the aircraft that I have flown in BoS have any feeling of mass.

 

They all feel like WW1 kites to one extent or another, which stands to reason as this is still just RoF with a WW2 skin on it.

 

Flame away (I know you will), but this is the biggest reason I've stopped playing the game.

 

And all the above video of the Sopwith Camel proves is that a very light airframe with the entire engine rotating will exhibit torque effects.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL
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None of the aircraft that I have flown in BoS have any feeling of mass.

Right this was what I was saying above, compared to other sims I've flown the planes in BoS feel much lighter. Glad it's not just me

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None of the aircraft that I have flown in BoS have any feeling of mass.

 

I'm curious how you would define this.  As far as I can tell the flight models are relatively accurate.  So the "no mass" feeling is all in your imagination, because I'm pretty sure that aircraft with "no mass" would not match WW2 flight models in any manner.

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I think what BlitzPig is meaning is that the planes in BoS feel a bit more like WWI biplanes than WWII planes. The difference (for me) is in how the plane controls 'feel'. There is much less sense of 'momentum' in the controls of BoS than in many other WWII flight sims. It's not the easiest thing to explain, but it's more of an impression you get. I noticed it immediately the first time I flew in BoS: hmmm this plane feels very 'light', more like I would expect a biplane to feel. Of course I've never flown any planes in real life so I couldn't say what was most accurate.

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Now if one were to say Il-2 BoS controls are more sensitive than other sims, fair enough

 

But the reference that because BoS uses DN game engine the aircraft will 'behave' like WWI aircraft is a very poor assumption and far from factual

 

When nicely trimmed the 100 ton cargo aircraft I used to fly would react responsively to two finger inputs, (not talking on stick forces in high g manoeuvres)  this has been my experience with pretty much all the aircraft I have flown in my career

 

With a little setting up of joystick responses I find I can get what feels like very reasonable feel, and great implementation of 'mass feel' when changing direction or pulling out of a dive

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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I think that the main problem has to do with the way aircraft, all of them, although some ( those with wing slats particularly ) show it even better, exhibit a strange oscillation when perturbed from their stable flight state.

And it's not only due to prop effects, because it's there even if you kill the engine !

 

Put any of the aircraft, fighter or bomber, flying straight & level, cruising for instance, properly trimmed for whatever speed and power settings you have them running at, an then make a sudden input to your stick, nose up or nose down, it doesn't matter, and let it center immediately again.

 

There is a sense of the aircraft being tied to a rubber band, which I never liked ( still don't ).

 

Some way along the various patches it got less intense than when I first noticed it, but it's still a strange oscillation. It's not the phugoid! It's a short period oscillation that starts immediately after the aircraft is perturbed in pitch.

 

The same applies to yaw.

 

We can play with the generic ( unfortunately not individual ) stick curves, but we can't get away from it ...

 

The inverted spin we get into when pushing the stick of the Fw-190 is also still there, and very unrealistic IMO...

 

It's work in progress, the Dev Team is doing their best to please the user community, and I enjoy the sim very much, because other features overcome this limitations...

 

But regarding the feel of "lightness" of the aircraft, I don't feel that to be true, specially from my RL flying experience. Quite on the contrary, the inertias appear to be very nicely modeled, as well as for instance control stiffening effects due to increased dynamic pressure.

Edited by JCOMM

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I think what BlitzPig is meaning is that the planes in BoS feel a bit more like WWI biplanes than WWII planes. The difference (for me) is in how the plane controls 'feel'. There is much less sense of 'momentum' in the controls of BoS than in many other WWII flight sims. It's not the easiest thing to explain, but it's more of an impression you get. I noticed it immediately the first time I flew in BoS: hmmm this plane feels very 'light', more like I would expect a biplane to feel. Of course I've never flown any planes in real life so I couldn't say what was most accurate.

You have explain exactly the same thing that I feel and belived....a more appropriate behavior for WW I planes than WW II !

100+

Edited by ITAF_Baracca

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The first and only time I've flown a plane it felt like I was trying to balance on a big rubber ball that I expected to drop out from underneath me. The thing seemed all over the place. I've always considered the flying as 777s hallmark.

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Tomsk and JCOMM have expressed/described it better than I did but that really covers the situation.

 

While I certainly do not have thousands of hours in real aircraft, like Dakpilot, I have flown, mostly light civil aircraft, and a couple twins, and most recently a Stearman.   Yes Dak you are totally correct, it does not take much effort at all to initiate changes of direction with only two fingers.   But, even in the biplane Stearman, the aircraft did not behave like a bobble head doll when making control inputs, it just did what you asked of it, not the nose wandering all over the place till lit settled down after you made the desired input like the planes in the sim do.

 

To me, and I repeat to me, if feels like the planes in the sim are nearly weightless, regardless of what the numbers in the game engine may say.   That's how I describe it for lack of better terminology.

 

I don't know if this is an after effect of the game engine being initially built for WW1 aircraft (I suspect it is part of it), or if it's some wonky calculation in the physics engine, or if it's done intentionally to make the sim harder, as sim pilots demand that everything is pretty much harder than in real life because of the mistaken belief that harder equals more real.

 

I just know it is wrong, and I suspect it also contributes to the clown car ground handling the sim still exhibits.

 

I really do want the sim to be the best it can be, I miss virtual flying, but I just cannot suspend my disbelief enough with this title's faults to let me have an enjoyable time.

 

And, I desperately want to try the P40, but I'll wait till things improve...  Hopefully.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL
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The P40, while suffering from the same "wobbling" that affects all aircraft in BoS, is well designed, and I believe reflects very acceptably the characteristics of it's RW counterpart, less the pitch stability characteristics...

 

The aircraft in BoS that mimic rw models do not differentiate from stability for positive and negative stick inputs in pitch.

 

Most ww2 fighters were neutral in terms of pitch stability, and some, like the P40, and then the 56 series... were neutral for positive pitch inputs under a wide range of weight / CoG values, and had positive stability for pitch down inputs.

 

But, overall I like the way the P40 is modeled, including the lack of directional stability.

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I think that the main problem has to do with the way aircraft, all of them, although some ( those with wing slats particularly ) show it even better, exhibit a strange oscillation when perturbed from their stable flight state.

And it's not only due to prop effects, because it's there even if you kill the engine !

 

Put any of the aircraft, fighter or bomber, flying straight & level, cruising for instance, properly trimmed for whatever speed and power settings you have them running at, an then make a sudden input to your stick, nose up or nose down, it doesn't matter, and let it center immediately again.

 

There is a sense of the aircraft being tied to a rubber band, which I never liked ( still don't ).

 

Some way along the various patches it got less intense than when I first noticed it, but it's still a strange oscillation. It's not the phugoid! It's a short period oscillation that starts immediately after the aircraft is perturbed in pitch.

 

The same applies to yaw.

 

We can play with the generic ( unfortunately not individual ) stick curves, but we can't get away from it ...

 

The inverted spin we get into when pushing the stick of the Fw-190 is also still there, and very unrealistic IMO...

 

It's work in progress, the Dev Team is doing their best to please the user community, and I enjoy the sim very much, because other features overcome this limitations...

 

But regarding the feel of "lightness" of the aircraft, I don't feel that to be true, specially from my RL flying experience. Quite on the contrary, the inertias appear to be very nicely modeled, as well as for instance control stiffening effects due to increased dynamic pressure.

+1 to what you wrote about the oscillations for pitch and yaw. Sums it up for me as well.

 

For myself the only time aircraft in BoS/BoM feel "light" is when trying to land (fighters in particular), and I feel that is only because the landing gear doesn't absorb enough force imo. Right now the aircraft rebound off the ground very easily, and I believe these aircraft could have firmer landings without being thrown back into the air. Hopefully the devs can look at that sometime.

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I think that the main problem has to do with the way aircraft, all of them, although some ( those with wing slats particularly ) show it even better, exhibit a strange oscillation when perturbed from their stable flight state.

And it's not only due to prop effects, because it's there even if you kill the engine !

 

Put any of the aircraft, fighter or bomber, flying straight & level, cruising for instance, properly trimmed for whatever speed and power settings you have them running at, an then make a sudden input to your stick, nose up or nose down, it doesn't matter, and let it center immediately again.

 

There is a sense of the aircraft being tied to a rubber band, which I never liked ( still don't ).

 

Some way along the various patches it got less intense than when I first noticed it, but it's still a strange oscillation. It's not the phugoid! It's a short period oscillation that starts immediately after the aircraft is perturbed in pitch.

 

The same applies to yaw.

 

We can play with the generic ( unfortunately not individual ) stick curves, but we can't get away from it ...

 

The inverted spin we get into when pushing the stick of the Fw-190 is also still there, and very unrealistic IMO...

 

It's work in progress, the Dev Team is doing their best to please the user community, and I enjoy the sim very much, because other features overcome this limitations...

 

But regarding the feel of "lightness" of the aircraft, I don't feel that to be true, specially from my RL flying experience. Quite on the contrary, the inertias appear to be very nicely modeled, as well as for instance control stiffening effects due to increased dynamic pressure.

 

Yes went into a flat spin to dive away from a   ... La-5 in my 190 . Hmmmm def not sure about this .......

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