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Developer Diary, Part 114 - Discussion

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Great update. I welcome the mouse control as a way of making things more accessible to new players. Though I imagine it would be very hard to be competitive with it, as any tiny advantage in flight would be neutralized by having to manage ones views via hot keys.

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Devs, this will be a super great update, thank you so much!

 

I fully support mouse control and I consider myself quite hardcore with Warthog, pedals and TIR.

 

For all those who are understandably critical towards this new feature, please try it out in ROF and tell me it brings any advanatge over guys like me whose hands grew around a joystick since the first IL2 came out.

 

I say: open our hardcore servers for mouse aimers and just watch what will happen. If there are any negative effects just switch it off. No apocalypse, no danger for this great sim

Edited by NachtJaeger110
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I've played WT, mouse aimers aren't that hard to kill even if they do have crazy accurate gunnery. But they do require a different set of tactics to fight. In any case, I view it as a non issue. No one is going to buy BoS/BoM and use mouse aim. The $60 entry fee combined with the lack of hundreds of planes will ensure they stick with WT instead. So other than being a waste of limited developer resources, I don't think it will amount to much. And the populated servers will inevitably ban mouse anyways, so it's doubly a non issue. Other than mouse aim, the dev blog looks pretty good.

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The thing is that MP is still very low crouded atm with joystick only guys. Once the mouse to jyostick ratio rises to 2:1 there'll probably be only mouse servers availabel.

 

Also, compared to RoF we have way more nimble, fast and accurate aircraft in BoS that additionally appeal to a wider audience than WW1 biplanes, so any advantage this mode gives will effect the game twice as heavily as in RoF.

 

Again all mistakes that can result from this have been done in WT. I can see the devs intent of fishing in their pool of players but the risks of failure are very high.

 

 

Of course the rest of the update sounds nice. I'm very happy to see some ancient bugs like the G-2 throttle being dealt with so I'm quite looking forward to this update, even with 3. leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

 

From my experiences in war thunder, mouse aim was so much easier than using a joystick because of how fast paced the game was, no in spite of it.

You only had to worry about moving your controls in 2 dimensions, rather than 3, and unlike here in IL-2, mouse users had physics that prevented stalls, eliminated torque and propwash, and could permit you to do anything a stick user could, but with perfect aim and efficiency.

 

Just from the video alone I could tell what position a mouse aimer would have if there would be even 1 multiplayer server that didn't ban mouse users:  good at ground attack, and will probably extend the hitting range about 100-150 meters, but will die every time a 109, Yak, P-40, MC.202, I-16, or even an IL-2, goes to tango with them, because they have essentially no roll control.  First thing I'll do when the game updates is get out my trusts Pe-2 and go hunting mouse using players.

 

Keep in mind that these people won't exactly be Richthofens, if they were flying in 1946 with a stick, their most common activity would be flat spinning.  Even those who have abilities like aiming and target leading aren't necessarily gifted with good dogfighting strategy and energy retention.

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I am clueless about mouse control, perhaps that's why I do not understand why there would be an aiming reticle and such a sweet ability to aim when in external (F2) view as in the video.  That seems REALLY arcade.  Will joystick users now be able to select a "follow" view and aim in external view?  Maybe an option to "lock on target" and have the onboard systems calculate a firing solution?  Just kidding of course but the external view guns idea just seems bizzare...is it just necessary with mouse control?

 

My bad... I had never played with external views, seems like F4 always was there and is more or less the view of which i speak, but still...a reticle to aim and shoot?

 

If you play around with even more settings, there is also an external reticle and target lead indicator even right now, both of which can be turned off.

 

Unless you turned these settings on, the only mouse aim/stick differences are the circle that a mouse aim aircraft follows, mouse aim would still need the internal gunsight for aiming.

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My only concern with the new mouse controls would be how accurate it would allow mouse users to be when engaging targets, particularly with long range shots. If the gunnery with mouse aim is anything like War thunder's realistic battles, then skilled mouse users will be able to hit 600 m shots with some consistency, a shot most joystick users wouldn't even consider taking.

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The mouse control looks to be much better than the RoF implementation, nice job team!

 

It may seem contradictory to compliment a flight sim on mouse control, but I realize BoS has much more complex flight models than any other game that has 'mouse flight', and the mouse control does not negate any of the flight characteristics (at least it didn't with the original RoF implementation).  It is very impressive that it was fully implemented.

 

My only concern with the new mouse controls would be how accurate it would allow mouse users to be when engaging targets, particularly with long range shots. If the gunnery with mouse aim is anything like War thunder's realistic battles, then skilled mouse users will be able to hit 600 m shots with some consistency, a shot most joystick users wouldn't even consider taking.

 

 

 
To those of you fearing the mouse flight... I wouldn't worry too much.  The AI is sub-par at flying aircraft compared to the human.  This game is not Warthunder, so it does not simply negate flight characteristics (like full deflection rudder causing drag, or extra rudder/aileron/elevator inputs costing energy).  On top of that, long range shots will be difficult because of the 'turn and lock' sort of control.  It will make deflection shooting difficult because the aircraft turns and sticks to a point in space, and most likely loses more energy than a player.  Also you will lose speed with extra control inputs of nudging the mouse left/right/and wherever.  Add turbulence/wind to all of that, and things become much more chaotic for a mouse.  
 
It seems very well implemented in the video, but considering the aircraft will still use the BoS flight model, I suspect the mouse will have a bit of a performance hit since the aircraft will be flown by an AI flight assist.  
 
The nice thing is people can play the game if they do not own a joystick.  I doubt they will be very competitive in a MP environment, but at least they can play and enjoy the game.
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What a great changelist.

 

Particularly thankful for the inclusion of AI BOM and BOS (premium) planes to the campaign. This is a big improvement for single players.

 

Regards

Albino

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Lots of great stuff in this update - the 110 would have been enough to keep me happy for another update cycle, but all those other things, big and small, look really promising to me.

 

Mouse control? Meh :sleep:

 

We won't know for sure until we try it, but if it's done the same way it was done in RoF it's certainly no magic bullet for turning noobs into instant aces, and no threat to anybody playing with a decent joystick or other flight controller gear. No reason to get hysterical - and I would certainly suggest that server operators shouldn't be too hasty to ban mouse control on their servers.  There's no point in fragmenting the already small MP community in that fashion, and it will only deprive the experienced MP folks playing with decent flight controllers of a lot of easy victories.  I definitely don't think anybody should set their server to exclude mouse control players unless/until they've tried it out for themselves - it probably won't take long to realize that mouse control is not going to give any advantage to the user going up against players using decent flight controllers.

 

I think there may actually be some value to creating a mouse-only server or two so the noobs will have a "safe" beginner's server environment to come experiment with MP without getting slaughtered by the vets with decent flight controllers, but I certainly don't think there's going to be any need for the vets to fear playing with mouse control players.

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Looking forward to the 110, I hope you skinners have your paint brushes at the ready.

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Great news, cant wait for the 110. Only some days to go :)

 

A question anyway.

 

Is / will grass visibility fixed in this patch for those who have a better GC?

 

Thanks

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AI tanks are going to crush human players methinks  :blink:

 

The AI tanks have been pretty amazing to watch in the course of my mission editing and testing.  I'd be wary going up against them even on low setting.   Still excited to get to explore these maps in finer detail (from the ground) May make mission testing much easier too.

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All of those can be mapped to something that isn't + or - keys, like a rotary or a slider. ...

I have a three axis joystick with one slider, a keyboard, and a mouse. One hand on the stick, the rest for everything else. No room on/around the desk for 84 more helper. This works much better (almost sufficiently well) with the control options given in original, in BoS it's a PITA. Not what I call progress or improvement. I once spend a day to set things up to the least inconvenient compromise (almost approaching 'bearable') but two days later the next update came and the settings were lost. With what the game has to offer right now, I can't be bothered to invest another day into fiddling with the now even worse GUI. So maybe improvements to what I have now are possible, but certain functions are simply missing so it will never be OK.

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Once you see how easy it is to shoot down people who are using mouse control you will want the server filled with people using mouse control.

 

I shot down people with Hotas Warthog + TrackIR with a modded XBOX ONE ELITE Controller. Now I can push my plane to the limits much more than a Joystick or Hotas Warthog can what gives me the advantage. Have a lot fun to play Expert or Normal Difficult  :salute:

 

BTW Mouse Control and where is the Cat Control Joke aside. We will see how much players jump on the mouse control train and how much new players come to this game. What could be very interesting to see a 1 vs 1 Hotas TrackIR vs Mouse Control to see how much advantage has Mouse Control over Hotas. Maybe this could be a great a Idea to merge player into one Server where all have fun together.

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The mouse control looks to be much better than the RoF implementation, nice job team!

 

It may seem contradictory to compliment a flight sim on mouse control, but I realize BoS has much more complex flight models than any other game that has 'mouse flight', and the mouse control does not negate any of the flight characteristics (at least it didn't with the original RoF implementation).  It is very impressive that it was fully implemented.

 

To those of you fearing the mouse flight... I wouldn't worry too much.  The AI is sub-par at flying aircraft compared to the human.  This game is not Warthunder, so it does not simply negate flight characteristics (like full deflection rudder causing drag, or extra rudder/aileron/elevator inputs costing energy).  On top of that, long range shots will be difficult because of the 'turn and lock' sort of control.  It will make deflection shooting difficult because the aircraft turns and sticks to a point in space, and most likely loses more energy than a player.  Also you will lose speed with extra control inputs of nudging the mouse left/right/and wherever.  Add turbulence/wind to all of that, and things become much more chaotic for a mouse.  
 
It seems very well implemented in the video, but considering the aircraft will still use the BoS flight model, I suspect the mouse will have a bit of a performance hit since the aircraft will be flown by an AI flight assist.  
 
The nice thing is people can play the game if they do not own a joystick.  I doubt they will be very competitive in a MP environment, but at least they can play and enjoy the game.

 

 

So far all people defending the mouse aim only made points (some of them valid) for a dogfight situation.

 

CF-105 Made a good one about ground attack, I have my share of WT playing and I can tell that ground pounding is very likely to be easier with mouse.

I'll speak from a bomber point of view, already being a sitting duck in the sky, I fear the long range raping ability this might give. Don't tell me about turn radius, rudder drag and stuffs, this doesn't apply here.

And despite the advanced physics, see in the video how the plane is overstabilized when firing. Despite years of flying, I never managed to get a plane as stable as that when straffing.

 

WT at least have an unrealistic spread to the weapons to deal with the issue. And despite the simpler physics, when playing on "realistics" settings, this type of mouse aim is no more available and replaced by a mouse controlled joystick that is muuuuch less convenient to fly.  Il2 doesn't

 

 

I don't want to be pessimistic and I will wait and try when it cames out to see by myself before making my final judgment. But seeing how the 110 behaves in the video, I think people have good reason to worry about.

And if it goes as I fear it may, you won't see any bomber pilot on these servers.

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber
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I think this update has an inviting diverse appeal about it....  And ... cough ... A  Pacific theatre, among the many, cough, cough, would be just dandy later on, given all those extra features :ph34r:
 
Great news about the hard core plane improvements.
Thank you :)

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We introduced Mouse Controls in ROF a couple years ago, I was very much against it, but because of the way it was designed it did not destroy gameplay or make instant aces out of mouse flyers. So now I support it. I am confident it will be the same case in BOS.

 

Those of you who a upset about the inclusion of mouse controls need to remember that the hardcore market is smaller these days and if we don't find a way to bring in new users, it all crashes and there will be nothing new. The core technology of this product is still hardcore. Adding some new options helps the cause.

 

Jason

I will be pleasantly surprised if this addition helps to attract any new players at all.  I'm all for anything that brings in the newer players and keeps them playing, but sadly I don't know if this will do it.

 

Now if in the future you plan to do some sort of "limited" or "freebie" release for public consumption then maybe it could work but I don't see people forking out for a full version and not having something to fly with.  I can't help but think the vast majority of players (that play flight sims) have or will invest in SOME sort of a setup to fly these games.  Which just reinforces the whole "niche market" argument....

 

Of course, I'm no developer, nor do I have any experience that could  compare to yours.  Jason, can you tell us if this addition actually brought any more players to Rise of Flight?  I suppose asking on the forums would be a better way to get that answer.... but deferring to your expertise is easier and probably more practical.  S!

 

Thanks for your thoughts.  Oh and the update!

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BoS is a Fight SIM...this kind of control. Has nothing to do with a SIM... That's just my opionion.

 

You didn´t read the description, or didn´t understand it. 

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Did nobody read the bit that clearly eluded to the fact not to panic about mouse control as they have carefully designed it to give less performance when compared to stick.

 

 

Or did I dream that

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During a shopping trip earlier today, I saw Rise of Flight and BoS, (both Boxed Versions), on the shelves of an EB games store.

There are always sales with every title, if your patient.


 

 

Looking forward to the 110, I hope you skinners have your paint brushes at the ready

I'm sure they will :)

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Did nobody read the bit that clearly eluded to the fact not to panic about mouse control as they have carefully designed it to give less performance when compared to stick.

 

 

Or did I dream that

 

Yes we did, but it all it says is that in a dogfight situation, you won't be able to make tight maneuvers and optimize your flight path. That's it.

 

From what I can tell from the video, the plane despite less maneuvering is more stable than when flawn with a joystick. 

 

The problems I'm expecting is that It will make ground straffing much easier, bomber hunting much easier (as if we weren't vulnerable enough), shooting from longer distances easier, and leading your targets somewhat easier.

 

 

I truly hope future will prove me wrong though, because bring in new players with a simplified way of taking of without crashing 9 out of 10 times is a real step forward for the future of the IL2 series and I think the devs made the right call.

 

Still, I have some big worries... to be answered soon  :)

 

 

Aside from that, Thumbs up for the devs, this DD is bringing a load of good news !  :good:

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber

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If Winston was alive today, and was a flight-simmer, he'd probably say something like:

 

"Never, in the field of virtual conflict, was so much (Excellent content) given to so many (virtual sim-pilots), by so few (the developers), for so little (cost)!"

 

Seriously, though, thanks for a great DD - looking forward to next week!

 

P.S. As a "grumpy old man", I think mouse-control is an excellent idea that can only benefit the future of our hobby.

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"15. Yak-1 pneumatic flaps extension speed increased (~80° per second while stationary, less at high speeds) based on learning video for Yak-15 with the same flaps system."

 

 

 

Hopefully this will help to make  the yak stall more unpredictable and limit its surprising handling charactiristics near stall.

 

Thanks Devs, what a beautiful playground you built for us!!! :salute:

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<~~~~~~Grumpy old man here

 

 

We would also gladly play by ourselves as he have for many years in IL-2 1946. A game that is still active BTW. Talk about grumpy; see your own quote above. Every mouse user I ever met acts just like you. Because you don't want the truth to be made light made light of.

 

What ever they do, it will only turn this into WT all over again. It may as well be a touch screen game after that. Just keep your finger on the plane and shoot. And BTW none of us who are "Grumpy" ever said we hated mouse users. We just hate playing against you and being trolled when we are actually trying to simulate combat. Even in 'Full SIM' mode (back when it was called that in WT) it still made you and instant Ace. Especially if you have the UFO La-7 or I-153.

 

I say to solve this just make mouse only servers. No feature locking just pick a type of server to be run. Sure it will be packed with 10-16yr old's cussing non stop and threatening violence on chat or TS...but hey it's what you are defending right?

 

 

 

P.S. I fixed your quote. And I only have one 23" monitor and an X-52 Pro w/o pedals.

 

 

It's a crutch mode to allow people who aren't veteran simmers to take it out for a spin, and then decide if they want to actually play the sim(pony up for a joystick, and then inevitably a TIR) .  Practically nobody is going to pay, what, 85 American dollars up front to try a new type of entertainment unless it involves women and sunshine.  This helps bridge the gap without losing them to WT in the first place.

 

 

I too have an X-52 Pro with TIR(no pedals) and one 26" screen.  I remember buying my copy of the first IL-2 at the Chièvres Air Base Post Exchange*Cough Cough*.  I also have a group of ~seven comrades who enjoy simming WAR in our free time.  I brought a few in that never would have thought they'd enjoy it for a moment, and it's features like this that will allow that to happen for those who do not have a friend to prod and baby them through. 

 

P.S. It's metre.

Edited by Silas

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Flight simulators are flight simulators, because you try to get a feel as close to reality flying an airplane, if we use most pilots Joystick,

it is precisely for this, to come to feel more and more close to the cabin of the airplane.

 

I do not understand the mania of selling a product as flight simulator, and gradually transform to another type of common game. flight simulator goes through having to know how to navigate without any help more than you your altimeter and magnetic compass IAS always find here all servers with map drawn on airplanes.
 
And now, suddenly, it can be used as a control mouse ... incerible as you can change the concept
 
All the simulator, I like a lot, and in fact defend tooth and claw, but the introduction of the mouse, will reject a significant portion of the Pilots ..
 
because if you can use mouse, who assures him another driver coming from another simulator, the flight model aircraft is not suitable for flying with the mouse, have a pleasant flight experience?
 
It is my view, and as he said, the rest of the simulator I really like, but that the introduction of the mouse .. hurts my soul. for that is WT
 
Notice that in the past only with Rise of Flight, Rise of Flight, constantly flown by hundreds of people daily, put Raton, and goodbye to people flying.
 
Follow people flying, of course, but among its pilots and squadrons on their servers
 
Salud.. Sorry for my bad inglish

 

 

Yes we did, but it all it says is that in a dogfight situation, you won't be able to make tight maneuvers and optimize your flight path. That's it.

 

From what I can tell from the video, the plane despite less maneuvering is more stable than when flawn with a joystick. 

 

The problems I'm expecting is that It will make ground straffing much easier, bomber hunting much easier (as if we weren't vulnerable enough), shooting from longer distances easier, and leading your targets somewhat easier.

 

 

I truly hope future will prove me wrong though, because bring in new players with a simplified way of taking of without crashing 9 out of 10 times is a real step forward for the future of the IL2 series and I think the devs made the right call.

 

Still, I have some big worries... to be answered soon   :)

 

 

Aside from that, Thumbs up for the devs, this DD is bringing a load of good news !   :good:

 

better said impossible, I wanted to refer to it ..

Edited by Lothar29
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So, we complain about numbers and we complain about the lack of a ground war in this sim. Yet, when the DEVs introduce options to address these two deficiencies we lose our minds.

 

By most accounts, mouse control will give the AC excellent stability and the ability to attack slow targets with elevated accuracy but lack the fine control necessary for effective air combat.

 

So, marginal advantage in the ground game. Likely none, or a disadvantage, in the air. How is that different than the two or three excellent dogfighting aces I've encountered flying il-2's for the last couple of years?

 

And, BTW, tanks!!!!

 

I think mouse control is excellent and has the chance to refocus the game a bit towards the ground war while potentially expanding the player base. How is that possibly a bad thing? We will have to wait a week or two to pass judgement on initial implementation but bring it! I need more low-n-slows to feed on anyway.

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I use to fly WT simulator mode with mouse joystick (Razer ABYSUSS).  Then switch to joystick (SaitekAV8R - 02). It is simply better to have cheap joystick than mouse. The amount of training to hit target was eventualy the same, it only gave me the disadvantage in dogfihgts. And planes in WT are less stable than in IL-2: BoS in my opinion, at least Stuka and Me bf 109 who have strong tendency to rotate more than their propeller.

 

As far as people won't have advantage for this - the only thing you will see is in game is his plane. To me personaly, having joystick and pedals is essential now, but it wasn't allways the case. Just let people start somehow.

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Times have change, we have to face it i think.

 

Come on, mouse option is only there because it is more and more difficult to inspire passion for a subject among youths: there's so many thing to buy and to do.

 

Even if only few of them become addicts it is worth it, i mean they are the future of the genre and if we cannot drag them in then who's gonna play with us? When they become addicts they will use a joystick be sure: just let them meet this game the way they are used to and experience a sim of quality, then give them time to involve : this cannot be bad for the genre.

 

Becoming a hardcore simer today is more difficult than in the past when sims (even the best) were arcady and easy, and we had time to learn to enjoy quality improvement through the years/decades. Today we have massive quality and difficulty in one of the very best sims, and perhaps this is too rich for newcomers to enjoy: they need incremental steps to join us. Any bridge to make them meet us is a good thing.

 

At least that's the way i see it. Perhaps we have forgotten how we were and have become snobs :happy:

Edited by Yak9Micha
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The Devs have said that mouse control in Bos/M is going to be like what is available in RoF.  Testers have confirmed this.  If you are worried about this change check it out in RoF!  If you can't be bothered to download (a fantastic free sim) then take the word of those who have tried this type of mouse control.  It is not better than having a joystick.  It does make the plane more flyable but it is not as good as  even a $30 stick would be. 

 

Relax.

 

Breathe

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The Devs have said that mouse control in Bos/M is going to be like what is available in RoF.  Testers have confirmed this.  If you are worried about this change check it out in RoF!  If you can't be bothered to download (a fantastic free sim) then take the word of those who have tried this type of mouse control.  It is not better than having a joystick.  It does make the plane more flyable but it is not as good as  even a $30 stick would be. 

 

Relax.

 

Breathe

 

The PATH is important...

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Times have change, we have to face it i think.

 

Come on, mouse option is only there because it is more and more difficult to inspire passion for a subject among youths: there's so many thing to buy and to do.

 

Even if only few of them become addicts it is worth it, i mean they are the future of the genre and if we cannot drag them in then who's gonna play with us? When they become addicts they will use a joystick be sure: just let them meet this game the way they are used to and experience a sim of quality, then give them time to involve : this cannot be bad for the genre.

 

Becoming a hardcore simer today is more difficult than in the past when sims (even the best) were arcady and easy, and we had time to learn to enjoy quality improvement through the years/decades. Today we have massive quality and difficulty in one of the very best sims, and perhaps this is too rich for newcomers to enjoy: they need incremental steps to join us. Any bridge to make them meet us is a good thing.

 

At least that's the way i see it. Perhaps we have forgotten how we were and have become snobs :happy:

Have some part of reason, today the young do not know maintain a hobby with the same passion, but for that matter, know who will follow within 10 years flying this flight simulator?

 

We, the fans really, who in 1998 bought WWII Fighters or 1992 B17 Microprose, and still to this day still flying free time to remember old times

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Well, after a breath, and talk to some people, we're going to wait out the update, see how the simulation with the ARCADE part is complemented.

We wait and see coo servers evolve, and if not, do not stay another to generate a Server absolutely and only for pilots that we like the Realistic flight with our peripherals and our cabins ..
and take advantage of them 100%
 
Salud Lothar29

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Do you guys realize that mouse control won`t affect your gameplay in any way?

 

If you are a SP as I am, who is going to force you to use that? Most people play SP so not a problem.

If you play MP, server administrators can choose to use only joystick. No one is forced to play on servers that allow mouse control. 

 

I don`t get it.

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Do you guys realize that mouse control won`t affect your gameplay in any way?

 

If you are a SP as I am, who is going to force you to use that? Most people play SP so not a problem.

If you play MP, server administrators can choose to use only joystick. No one is forced to play on servers that allow mouse control. 

 

I don`t get it.

 It may when you realise you are getting sniped 800m away when both of you are on the verge of stall,

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I don`t get it.

 

Sadly I get that a flight simmers tend to be their worst enemy! Its just nuts some of the comments here 

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So; among all the doom and gloomers posting here, have you  actually tried the 777 implementation of mouse control? Or are you all just reacting with out knowing what you are talking about?   Because everyone I see who has tried it (through RoF) are saying this is no big deal.  The ones who are crying foul are those who don't know what they are talking about.

Edited by SYN_Mike77
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